Americans fall behind in math and science

[Armistead]

"U.S. students lagged behind those in 16 of 30 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a Paris-based group that represents the world's richest countries. The U.S. students were further behind in math, trailing counterparts in 23 countries."

Don't blame France, other studies I looked at had us further behind...

Seems we're moving quickly to socialism and stupidity....where have we seen this before...



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120400730.html

[GoldenRivet]

ignorance is a celebrated thing in America these days.

http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2013730/rs_560x415-130830150852-1024..miley-cyrus-twerk-vma.ls.83013.jpg

it is much cooler for kids to be stupid sideways hat wearing, pants around the knees morons than to actually be successful at something

good at words and maths? no... hell no man... i believe you'd get your ass kicked for somethin lak that

[Armistead]

We have two teachers in the family, both say teaching is lowering the standard to pass all and to teach them how to pass state and federal test.

My daughter home schools all 3 of her kids. She networks with other mothers that do the same. They still enter public competitions and have to take all the same test, but always rate in the top percent.

[Tribesman]

Seems we're moving quickly to socialism and stupidity....where have we seen this before...

How many of those countries above the US would fit your USian definition of socialist?
Considering of course that all the countries above the US have that "socialist" thing called universal healthcare:03:

[AVGWarhawk]

We have two teachers in the family, both say teaching is lowering the standard to pass all and to teach them how to pass state and federal test.



Bingo! They teach how to take tests.

[Nippelspanner]

I would not only blame the kids, I would primarily blame those responsible for them, the parents.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would not only blame the kids, I would primarily blame those responsible for them, the parents.

I don't blame the kids at all. I have two of them. One is still in grade school. My eldest is in college. My second will go to college as well. My wife and I are very much a part of their education. However, both will state they are being taught to test.

[Aktungbby]

Nothing new here, It's why we imported Einstein and Werner von Braun, and Hedy Lamarr(patent holder) to name a few.:O:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Frankly there is a lot of things that need to be changed in the education system in this country. In the US we don't have standards that are set at the national level, instead it is set at the state level, whereas funding is based upon income so a person in a wealthy or even an average neighborhood will have a better education then a person living in a poor neighborhood.

Teachers in the US are allowed to teach if they have a bachelors degree and they are allowed to teach a subject that isn't relevant to their degree, so a teacher who has a degree in Greek Mythology can teach math.:-? Then there are bad teachers who are protected by unions and "tenure", so a bad teacher who should be removed from the classroom is still allowed to teach,(I've had experience with this.) Classes should be based on the an individual students learning capabilities and placed into classes that way instead of the individual being forced to learn a subject in at the group level in which the individual might have difficulty learning that subject.
When my parents where in school A students where placed in their own class same thing with the B,C,D and F students. So why has that changed?

Then there's the state and federal tests, which seem to prove more of what a student hasn't learned then what they have learned. An example of which is when I lived in Washington State we would take the Washington Assessment of Student Learning or WASL for short. While I was in Jr. High or Middle School as its know in other states, I had been placed in a special class for math as I was horrible at it and the explanations from teachers never seemed to help much either. When it came time to take the WASL, I managed to do well in subjects like reading, social studies and English, but when it came time for the math section I could not answer most of the questions. Why? Because it was at a higher level of math then I had learned in the classroom and because it was a standardized test which meant that I was forced to be part of a group which had learned a higher level of math then I had and had a better comprehension of that level of math then I.

[Wolferz]

Welcome to the Idiocracy.
It won't be long before the "sex on demand" law gets passed.:03:
Sorry ladies.:huh:

[Armistead]

How many of those countries above the US would fit your USian definition of socialist?
Considering of course that all the countries above the US have that "socialist" thing called universal healthcare:03:

I don't have a problem with universal care, but you can't have that and mass profits for all those in the industry...why we are bound to fail at it.

[ETR3(SS)]

Anyone else notice this article was posted in 2007?

[ETR3(SS)]

Seems we're moving quickly to socialism and stupidity....where have we seen this before...
And all under Bush's watch...so what does that say?

[the_tyrant]

A huge reason is this American fascination towards liberal arts.

In many Asian countries, there is a stigma that "liberal arts are for losers". In most Chinese schools, we can see a trend that smart kids go into science and engineering, the not so smart ones go into finance and commerce, and the absolute bottom of the pack go into the arts.

Thus at the high school level, anybody who isn't too dumb would go and study the maths and sciences, wereas with american students, too many of them would not study math and science, since they are aiming to study liberal arts in university.

[MGR1]

It's OK, the UK is "stagnating" as well;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25187997

Having said that, there is variation between Scotland and England/Wales. According a news report I saw on TV, Scotland does better in Maths and English, but England/Wales do better at the Sciences.:hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25198792

Mike.

[Ducimus]

A huge reason is this American fascination towards liberal arts.

In many Asian countries, there is a stigma that "liberal arts are for losers". In most Chinese schools, we can see a trend that smart kids go into science and engineering, the not so smart ones go into finance and commerce, and the absolute bottom of the pack go into the arts.

Thus at the high school level, anybody who isn't too dumb would go and study the maths and sciences, wereas with american students, too many of them would not study math and science, since they are aiming to study liberal arts in university.


If this is true, then it goes hand in hand with the misguided belief that getting a college degree, ANY college degree, is the gateway to prosperity. A myth that one could probably say was fabricated by the industry for higher education. It's quite the racket..... errr i mean business these days, which also spills over into the finance industry with government subsidized loans creating an entire generation of indentured servants holding meaningless college degrees they'll be paying on until they die or 20 years has elapsed, whichever comes first.

[mapuc]

In Sweden the government and the opposition is throwing words against each other, about who's to blame in the failure regarding the result of the Pisa-test.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

the Pisa-test.Markus

Some mis-engineered building not standing straight?:woot:

[mapuc]

Some mis-engineered building not standing straight?:woot:

?? I thought the OP was talking about this test made by OECD here in scandinavia it's called Pisa-test.

So I thought it was the same in england, USA and the rest of the world.


Markus

[Penguin]

Americans fall behind in math and science

article date: December 5, 2007

:hmmm:


(MGR posted results in of the recent study in post 15, or check the original source here (http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results.htm))

[Jimbuna]

?? I thought the OP was talking about this test made by OECD here in scandinavia it's called Pisa-test.

So I thought it was the same in england, USA and the rest of the world.


Markus

You are correct...try not to get distracted.

[the_tyrant]

If this is true, then it goes hand in hand with the misguided belief that getting a college degree, ANY college degree, is the gateway to prosperity. A myth that one could probably say was fabricated by the industry for higher education. It's quite the racket..... errr i mean business these days, which also spills over into the finance industry with government subsidized loans creating an entire generation of indentured servants holding meaningless college degrees they'll be paying on until they die or 20 years has elapsed, whichever comes first.

I never understood that to be honest. If you major in a stem subject, you have a good chance to get a job in your field. If you are a commerce major you have a chance of getting a job in business.

What can you do if you end up a feminist studies major?

Hell, playing for your school's baseball team probably gives you a better chance of turning pro.

Now its true, many jobs have little to do with formal training. Employers in those fields want a degree to "judge character". But lets be honest here, a science degree shows that you are probably smart and have good logic and reasoning skills. An engineering degree shows that you are smart and was trained in design and innovation. A music degree shows that you at least have the capability to perform memorized works in front of an audience. Playing on your school's sports team means that you are fit and understands teamwork.

But some degrees like sexual diversity studies? That just tells people you spent a few years "exploring your body".


In fact, in China and Japan, the most popular arts major is languages and cultures. English, French, Japanese, Spanish, majors are very popular in China and the employment prospects are reasonably good.

However, these degrees are utterly useless in North America. If I need something translated into Spanish, I'll just find a Hispanic American, a native speaker. If I need an expert on Japanese culture, I'll just go find a Japanese immigrant. Your foreign language degree and your cultures degree is completely and utterly useless.

[vienna]

From 2007 to 2013:


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2013/1203/PISA-test-shows-stagnation.-Is-US-education-reform-failing


The local news radio station here in Los Angeles reported this today also noting Vietnam was included in the tests for the first time; they palced higher than the U.S. in the test scores...

From Ducimus:

If this is true, then it goes hand in hand with the misguided belief that getting a college degree, ANY college degree, is the gateway to prosperity.


Several years ago, I participated in the roll out of an automated stundent class enrollment project at the University of California, a large, prestigious, private univeristy in Los Angeles, sort of 'Ivy League', West. Part pof my work involved actually interacting with the students as they selected their courses for the coming semester. Almost without exception, the students who were US citizens opted for business classes, on the way to an MBA degree. The students from other countries, notably from Asia and the Middle East, enrolled in classes related to the sciences, information technology, and medicine. Thsi all occurred during the height of the Reagan-era, Wall Street "greed is good" mania when an MBA was determined to be the best, if not only, path to great success. Now, those students from the US are probably the ones who have assisted or masterminded the economic failures of the intervening years while the other foreign students are probably the ones who went on to make the scientific, medical, and technological advances that have enriched our lives and, in turn, made those students far more relevant and richer than those who salivated over an MBA...


<O>

[Platapus]

What concerns me is that despite all the money spent on education in this country, almost half of the students are still below average. :nope:

[Madox58]

I think 3/4 of you are wrong.
The other 5/8ths?
I'm not sure about yet.
:hmmm:

[vienna]

I think 3/4 of you are wrong.
The other 5/8ths?
I'm not sure about yet.
:hmmm:

Are you 126.87% sure of this?...


<O>

[Platapus]

There are three kinds of students
Those who understand math
Those who don't.

[Madox58]

:nope:
Now my head hurts!
All I need now is that thumper from down under to mess with me.

[Madox58]

You are correct...try not to get distracted.

Ohhh! Look at the shiney object in the corner!
:o

[Stealhead]

I never understood that to be honest. If you major in a stem subject, you have a good chance to get a job in your field. If you are a commerce major you have a chance of getting a job in business.

What can you do if you end up a feminist studies major?

Hell, playing for your school's baseball team probably gives you a better chance of turning pro.

Now its true, many jobs have little to do with formal training. Employers in those fields want a degree to "judge character". But lets be honest here, a science degree shows that you are probably smart and have good logic and reasoning skills. An engineering degree shows that you are smart and was trained in design and innovation. A music degree shows that you at least have the capability to perform memorized works in front of an audience. Playing on your school's sports team means that you are fit and understands teamwork.

But some degrees like sexual diversity studies? That just tells people you spent a few years "exploring your body".


In fact, in China and Japan, the most popular arts major is languages and cultures. English, French, Japanese, Spanish, majors are very popular in China and the employment prospects are reasonably good.

However, these degrees are utterly useless in North America. If I need something translated into Spanish, I'll just find a Hispanic American, a native speaker. If I need an expert on Japanese culture, I'll just go find a Japanese immigrant. Your foreign language degree and your cultures degree is completely and utterly useless.


I agree it all depends on what your major is.If you major in a useful field or an in demand field an engineer for example you run a pretty good chance of finding a job in engineering in the US.Now you might not get the best job but you'll get a job.

One of my cousins owns a business insurance firm down in Ft.Lauderdale ,FL.His half sister who will be complementing high school very soon got interested in that industry helping my cousin.

He told her that the best job in the insurance industry the most in demand one is Risk Management (adjuster) this type job has been used by insurance companies for some time but until the past 10 or 15 years they where hiring people that had a degree more specif towards finances and less so in the specifics of the insurance industry.Now a few schools have curriculum focusing specifically on Risk Management for Insurance.

Of course my cousin he majored in communications at the University of Alabama which is kind of fitting because his job is more in sales though that was not what he had planned on doing.Still the education helped him I have no doubt of this.

I forget the exact statistic but I think the typical college graduate earns about one million dollars more in a career span than a person that does not have a college degree will earn in the US.

Now pretty much all of these liberal arts degrees are useless.But most of those people are trust fund kids anyway.

[Stealhead]

There are three kinds of students
Those who understand math
Those who don't.


Wait what?:D

[Madox58]

Wait what?:D

That's the 5/8ths I was talking about!
:o

And seeing as the Big hand is close to the bottom of the clock and the little hand is pointing out back?
I gotta go. I forgot to take the trash out and the Wife will be home in a bit.
I need to think up a lie or hide the trash!
Hideing the trash seems the easiest way to avoid a math problem.

[Sailor Steve]

I need to think up a lie or hide the trash!
No, no, no. Lying. Plotting. Planning. Thinking. These are the things that get you into trouble. Just take out the trash. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Mathematics is like love, a simple idea, but it can get complicated.

[Aktungbby]

Mathematics is like love, a simple idea, but it can get complicated.
Von Clausewitz:"Everything in war is simple...but sometimes the simple thing becomes ...difficult"

[Wolferz]

Nothing new here, It's why we imported Einstein and Werner von Braun, and Hedy Lamarr(patent holder) to name a few.:O:


The name's Hedley!:haha:

[Madox58]

No, no, no. Lying. Plotting. Planning. Thinking. These are the things that get you into trouble. Just take out the trash. :O:
Seems Nancy put 1 and 1 together and took the trash out before going to work.
(At lest She can do the Math)
To put a dead body in a trunk or move the trash myself?
:hmmm:

I'm just happy I didn't hear a word about it!
:rock:

[Platapus]

The name's Hedley!:haha:

What the hell are you worried about? This is 1874. You'll be able to sue *her*. :D

[Wolferz]

What the hell are you worried about? This is 1874. You'll be able to sue *her*. :D

Why not?
Sue Herr deserves it.:03:

[CaptainMattJ.]

What concerns me is that despite all the money spent on education in this country, almost half of the students are still below average. :nope:
There are the obvious factors, such as poor neighborhoods with poor schools, and there are the less obvious yet just as relevant factors, such as the very nature of american society itself.

The one thing that i consistently saw throughout my schooling was the immense lack of motivation in many, many of my peers. They didn't seem to care if they got horrible grades. They didnt seem to care about having to take summer school, or night school, or a 7th period to make up for their utter lack of effort (though they complained constantly about it). We had pretty good teachers for the most part, and our high school was and still is one of the highest ranking in california. So its not like they didnt have opportunity. They simply didnt try, whatsoever. They would always come to me asking how to do the lesson, complaining about how our teacher didnt explain it well at all, and i told them "Well, i understood it. Ergo he cant be THAT bad of a teacher. Why dont you go get help from him personally before or after school" and they just were too lazy to go.

For whatever reason, it seemed as though almost none of my friends had any sort of plan nor any sort of goal after graduation. I'd constantly tell them "If you dont get your act together, youre gonna get stuck wasting away in community college going absolutely nowhere". In California, many community colleges are a death trap for people planning to transfer. Getting even basic general ed classes is an absolute nightmare here, because our community colleges are overflowing with students. My friends didnt listen, didnt care, and only had the faintest of goals for what they wanted to do for the rest of their life. When i asked them what they wanted to do, they gave me what seemed like careers they had pulled out of a hat. They didnt listen to me when i tried to talk them out of some careers that get you nowhere (psychology is a good example).

Its not like they were teaching kids that things are going to work themselves out. Its not like they werent pounded with the idea that the beginning of the rest of their life was looming just over the horizon and that they needed to start thinking ahead. Thats all i ever seemed to hear was how important college/trade school was, yet few really took it to heart.

Another problem is that schools teach to pass tests. Students learn all of the information they are supposed to know at some point in their schooling, yet almost immediately forget about it when they dont use it. That's why you end up seeing all these videos (which are biased yet still startling) of random americans on the street being asked very simple and common questions, and seeing those people fail miserably. Other factors include this whole "everybody is a winner" mentality, and the impartial all-encompassing crap that schools employ now. For instance, If i had gotten into a fight with another kid when i was in high school, both of us would have been arrested, right on the spot. Doesnt matter who started it, who threw the first punch, who provoked it, or whether one kid was acting in self defense. Both would be arrested and suspended. The ONLY exception was if one kid literally took the beating and didnt try to defend himself at all. That was the only way only one of the students would be punished.

There are just too many reasons why so many students do poorly. Some dont have access to good schooling. Others dont get the assistance they need. Some get awful teachers (who are incapable of being fired). But most of the poorly performing students have an appalling lack of effort and are entirely unconcerned with anything outside of their daily lives. Actually that seems to be a problem with many Americans, not just students. They cant be bothered to be aware of whats going on elsewhere. They cant be bothered to retain even more rudimentary scientific and mathematical skills that have very practical use (such as knowing general information about their health). They cant be bothered to be informed about their government and the candidates they blindly elect. And its these kinds of people that become sheep. Its these kinds of people who never research ANYTHING beyond a superficial 30 second google search. Its these kinds of people who dont plan for anything in life and never fully understand the consequence of their actions. Its these kinds of people who live inside a bubble and are flabbergasted when the bubble pops and their way of life is suddenly changed because they had zero foresight and zero insight on anything that didnt occur in their day-to-day lives.

If we want to really improve our education, we need more than just the obvious reform that has been required for decades. We need to change our society as a whole to drill it into these kid's heads that you cant just expect to succeed in ANYTHING unless youre willing to put forth an effort and plan ahead. Im not saying kids have to go to college, or that they have to get a degree in a high-paying field. They can do whatever they want. (though we should be encouraging science and math so as to stay competitive in the world) But that attitude of "Ill do it later" and "Who cares" is going to give them a very rude wake up call in a very harsh world. Hopefully we can work towards eliminating those mentalities from our general society in the future.

[Platapus]

We need to move to Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.:yep:

[vienna]

Nah, because then we'd have to listen to Garrison Keillor's endless droning and prattling...


<O>

[Aktungbby]

We need to move to Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.:yep:

Nah, because then we'd have to listen to Garrison Keillor's endless droning and prattling... <O>:agree:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I have to contribute this (http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_how_to_escape_education_s_death_valle y.html) video of talk by Ken Robinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Robinson_%28educationalist%29) regarding U.S. education. It was mandatory watching for students in IT faculty here.