Kind of ironic this happened...

[Bubblehead1980]

Well, my point is proven by a real life incident that occurre last night.A illegal immigrant from mexico rear ended my girlfriend and I as we sat in her car downtown, I had just parked when I noticed headlights extremely close and too far over, I attempted to restart car and move onto sidewalk, but not enough time.After the collision, I exited vehicle and this genius, attempted to flee but his mangled bumper was caught in the damaged rear of the vehicle, I approached the driver side, his window was down, telling him to stop and reached in, turning off the ignition and removing the keys while waiting on the police to arrive, he was so intoxicated, he just sat there seemingly mesmerized, other than a few curse words in spanish.Yes, has verified he is illegal, no driver's license, no insurance, acted as if though he spoke no english. Luckily neither of us were really hurt, just a little sore today and her vehicle suffered moderate damage.Sure, this could happen anytime but fact is, this man should not have even been in this country, can't wait to find out how many times he has been deported.Passing this incident along to my congressman, senator etc and urge them to secure the border and deport as many of these people as possible.Likely will not do any good, but it happened.

Wonder how many times a year this happens across our country? Too many, heard of quite a few incidents.just another sign of what a sad state this country is in.Now, I am one of the victims, the people I read about. When will people wake up?

[GoldenRivet]

It happened to me several years ago, drunk illegal, head on collision at about 40 mph. fortunately i was stopped in a turn lane or the closure speed would have been about 80+, he swerved out of the opposite lanes into the opposing turn lane which was empty and just drove right into me. totaled my brand new car that i only had for about 4 months.

No driver's license, in the country illegally, no insurance.

His beater caprice classic limped away from the accident scene as he fled. The cops caught up to him as a friend of mine who witnessed the accident followed the guy.

its a load of crap that we just sit back and let these people in to get away with this sort of thing. Its not like there are a bunch of brain surgeons and engineers sneaking across the border.

your senator will do nothing for you an you sir are a racist for suggesting anything be done about illegal immigrants. :rotfl2:

[AVGWarhawk]

Lord knows the legals don't drive intoxicated, dead tags and no insurance. I know, if this guy was not here it would not have happened. But hey, if you were not on that street that day it would not have happened. Glad no one was hurt.

[Wolferz]

Way too many people out there who don't think the rules apply to them.
Especially the ones who aren't able to read the rules.:down:
I trust the border jumper went to the hoosegow?

[em2nought]

Lord knows the legals don't drive intoxicated, dead tags and no insurance.

...and we should have a better way to deal with them too. 10 years hard labor in China maybe. :hmmm: I'm sure that thought makes me a racist. :har:

[Ducimus]

Tell your illegals to go to California. Citizen or not, the Peoples Republic will give them a drivers license, and all kinds of free stuff provided by taxpayers (http://youtu.be/fPZBPVnrGfA). On top of that, most of the population speaks Spanish. They'll be right at home there. :O: :haha:

[kranz]

sorry but I can see COMPLETELY NO relation between the guy being an 'illegal' mexican and pumping your girlfriend in the rear..... I mean bumping into rear of your girlfriend...(you get the point)

[Armistead]

Don't worry about it, they'll all be legal soon....then we can go through it again in another 20 years with the next bunch of 12 million.

[Tribesman]

Kind of ironic this happened...
The irony being that there were two DUIs involved in this incident.
What would be really ironic is if one of the DUIs wasn't covered on his girlfriends car insurance.

[Nippelspanner]

sorry but I can see COMPLETELY NO relation between the guy being an 'illegal' mexican and pumping your girlfriend in the rear..... I mean bumping into rear of your girlfriend...(you get the point)
Ok, I chuckled like a 10year old... thanks! :haha:

[Bubblehead1980]

Lord knows the legals don't drive intoxicated, dead tags and no insurance. I know, if this guy was not here it would not have happened. But hey, if you were not on that street that day it would not have happened. Glad no one was hurt.


What legals do is immaterial here, they have a right to be in the country.This guy should not have even been here to do this.

[Bubblehead1980]

Way too many people out there who don't think the rules apply to them.
Especially the ones who aren't able to read the rules.:down:
I trust the border jumper went to the hoosegow?


Yes, cops arrested him promptly, he refused sobriety tests and was combative.One cop was cool and said good job, other was a dick about me grabbing his keys and having my gun handy, explained that is the point of concealed carry.

[Tribesman]

What legals do is immaterial here, they have a right to be in the country.This guy should not have even been here to do this.

So if a legal "savage" had done it it would be fine and dandy.

[Cybermat47]

If he had been an American citizen, would you have complained?

[Ducimus]

Intergration is such a novel concept.

[Tribesman]

Intergration is such a novel concept.

The downright refusal of some immigrants to Utah to adopt Mormonism is a scandal.
Why can't they just integrate with the locals.

[Stealhead]

How was this situation ironic?

Irony would be an illegal immigrant who is a proponent of the deportation of illegal immigrants getting rear ended by another illegal immigrant.

[Red October1984]

Tell your illegals to go to California...

It's bad enough there already. :03:

[Ducimus]

It's bad enough there already. :03:

Meh, it's already past the point of rescue in more ways then one. I think we should just cut our losses, give the area back to Mexico already and be done with it. :haha:

[Father Goose]

Yes, cops arrested him promptly, he refused sobriety tests and was combative.One cop was cool and said good job, other was a dick about me grabbing his keys and having my gun handy, explained that is the point of concealed carry.

As upside down as the world is, you probably should be thankful that you weren't arrested because the illegal filed charges. :D

Yes, has verified he is illegal, no driver's license, no insurance, acted as if though he spoke no english.

Perfect Seinfeld solution for you...the judge decrees that the illegal becomes your butler. :O:

[Admiral Halsey]

Meh, it's already past the point of rescue in more ways then one. I think we should just cut our losses, give the area back to Mexico already and be done with it. :haha:

Or hope the San Andreas Fault makes California an island.

[Red October1984]

Meh, it's already past the point of rescue in more ways then one. I think we should just cut our losses, give the area back to Mexico already and be done with it. :haha:

Earlier I was playing Vicky 2...

My plan is to take all of Mexico's land EXCEPT for the California Republic. :)

I already have no national debt and almost no unemployment. California will just ruin it for me.

Or hope the San Andreas Fault makes California an island.

When there's a will, there's a way.

The East Coast would never agree with it though. :hmmm:

Guess we'll have to find a way to cause such an earthquake.

[Admiral Halsey]

Guess we'll have to find a way to cause such an earthquake.

We could always nuke the fault. It worked in the Superman movie after all.

[Bubblehead1980]

So if a legal "savage" had done it it would be fine and dandy.


I would have been mad, but not as mad, at least would have an actual right to be in the country.This individual does not, should not be here in first place.

[Cybermat47]

I would have been mad, but not as mad, at least would have an actual right to be in the country.This individual does not, should not be here in first place.

What does this have to do with rear ending your car? Were you really so affected by a Mexican rear ending your car that you had to tell us?

And are you absolutely sure that he was illegal to begin with? Did you check for his citizenship?

[Tribesman]

I would have been mad, but not as mad, at least would have an actual right to be in the country.This individual does not, should not be here in first place.
Indeed, but the question is, did you have a right to be there in the first place?
Did your girlfriends car have its insurance loaded to cover your DUI?
If not then you had no right to be sitting where you was sitting.

[Cybermat47]

What legals do is immaterial here, they have a right to be in the country.This guy should not have even been here to do this.


I agree. As long as you're a citizen of the Reich- sorry,United States, you can commit as many crimes as you like, because you're not a Jew- sorry, Mexican.


But seriously, I'm pretty sure that most of your opinions are American Nazi party policy.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree. As long as you're a citizen of the Reich- sorry,United States, you can commit as many crimes as you like, because you're not a Jew- sorry, Mexican.
I don't see Bubblehead as being racist here. He did emphasize his point that it's not about Mexicans per se, but about illegal immigrants.

But seriously, I'm pretty sure that most of your opinions are American Nazi party policy.
That is pretty much over the line where personal attacks are concerned. Please dial it back a bit.

[Ducimus]

/godwin

[Bubblehead1980]

Indeed, but the question is, did you have a right to be there in the first place?
Did your girlfriends car have its insurance loaded to cover your DUI?
If not then you had no right to be sitting where you was sitting.


My DUI? I was not drunk. I had every right to sit where I was, it was parking spot and I am a natural born citizen of the United States.This sob violated the law by even being in the country, let alone driving a car that was not his(can not locate the registered owner, possibly fraudulent registration was last update from the officer when we talked yesterday) and put our lives and property in danger.I plan to keep close tabs on progress of case and hopefully his subsequent deportation, if he is not deported, I plan to do everything possible to make a stink about it. I get angry every time I think about the other night, absolutely ridiculous.

[Bubblehead1980]

What does this have to do with rear ending your car? Were you really so affected by a Mexican rear ending your car that you had to tell us?

And are you absolutely sure that he was illegal to begin with? Did you check for his citizenship?


I did feel the need to mention it since we were just discussing illegals in an earlier thread.I am now a victim of America's broken immigration system and non secured border.Makes the issue just hit home even more, we were lucky were not injured even more.Although my neck is still pretty sore.

[AVGWarhawk]

Everyone is a victim......

[Bubblehead1980]

I agree. As long as you're a citizen of the Reich- sorry,United States, you can commit as many crimes as you like, because you're not a Jew- sorry, Mexican.


But seriously, I'm pretty sure that most of your opinions are American Nazi party policy.


Stop race baiting, this has nothing to do with race.I would be just as angry if it were an illegal immigrants from europe.Bottom line, they have no right to be here for many reasons, ranging from their effects on the economy, crime, resources etc then they actually harm me or someone I care about, it just further lets me know why it is wrong this problem is left as it is.

[Tribesman]

My DUI? I was not drunk
Read what was written.

Though I think you understand it perfectly and are just trying to dodge it because it makes your complaint look weak.:yep:

BTW.Stop race baiting, this has nothing to do with race.
Can you refresh your memory about the closing post in your last "illegal immigrant" topic?:hmmm:

[Father Goose]

Read what was written.

Maybe you can enlighten us. I didn't read anything about Bubblehead drinking or having a DUI. Maybe something has been edited, I don't know. And can you include who you are quoting in your quotes? It would be appreciated.

I understand where Bubblehead is coming from and I think if any one of us had an incident like this happen to them, would be equally upset...well, upset. :hmmm:

It's very frustrating because the subject is unaccountable for his actions and can now probably fade away into the shadows with no recourse for his victims. It's simply not right and not what the USA is...or was about.

[Penguin]

First: good that none of the passengers got hurt - not good that the drunk driver didn't.

The irony however lies elsewhere.
According to Bubblehead, if the cops would have stopped the driver before the accident it would have been "government extortion" :hmmm: - also refusing to do a sobriety test is an advice he gave in the very same thread I quote:

Truth is, there is DUI according to the idiotic laws most have and actual DUI. The common .08 limit is BS, people are not drunk at the level yet plenty of people get arrested, foolishly submit to their tests and get convicted, then get caught in the government racket, costing them thousands of dollars [..]

and:
08 is a ridiculously low limit but it allows them to get people into the money racket based on what "might" happen.Someone causes a wreck and is actually drunk, okay they deserve punishment, but the harsh penalties for being over some arbitrary limit set by the government? not right.I think a citation, order to leave the car on the side of the road and call a cab would be much more sensible and warranted but then they government would not get to extort thousands of dollars from the victims of their oppressive laws now would they?

so: the car is no wreck, but only got bumped into, a cab should have been called...

[Bubblehead1980]

Maybe you can enlighten us. I didn't read anything about Bubblehead drinking or having a DUI. Maybe something has been edited, I don't know. And can you include who you are quoting in your quotes? It would be appreciated.

I understand where Bubblehead is coming from and I think if any one of us had an incident like this happen to them, would be equally upset...well, upset. :hmmm:

It's very frustrating because the subject is unaccountable for his actions and can now probably fade away into the shadows with no recourse for his victims. It's simply not right and not what the USA is...or was about.


Nothing was edited pertaining to my drinking.I had not even had anything to drink at that point and even if I had, it would have in no way been my fault since I was parked perfectly, in a parking spot downtown.Tribesman is just trying to troll here because he has a personal issue with me.The illegal immigrant driver of the vehicle that hit us was too far over and probably could not tell because he was so intoxicated.The Police Officer who handled the case is supposed to call me when he is on duty this evening.

[Bubblehead1980]

First: good that none of the passengers got hurt - not good that the drunk driver didn't.

The irony however lies elsewhere.
According to Bubblehead, if the cops would have stopped the driver before the accident it would have been "government extortion" :hmmm: - also refusing to do a sobriety test is an advice he gave in the very same thread I quote:


and:


so: the car is no wreck, but only got bumped into, a cab should have been called...

Taking my views on the extortion that most DUI charges are, out of context.I was saying the .08 limit is extremely low and people who get charged DUI when not intoxicated but some science that is questionable says they are impaired, are extorted out of thousands and thousands of dollars, between the courts and "DUI industry" that includes MADD, counseling, AA etc well its wrong.The illegal immigrant driver who hit me, not sure what his BAC was, last heard he was refusing all tests but was easy to see he was very intoxicated.Had this fool been pulled over and arrested, would not call it extortion but the cops doing their job since he was actually intoxicated and operating a motor vehicle, which lead to a collision.Luckily, it was a relatively minor accident.

[Red October1984]

Everyone is a victim......

:up: There's the problem

[Penguin]

Taking my views on the extortion that most DUI charges are, out of context.I was saying the .08 limit is extremely low and people who get charged DUI when not intoxicated but some science that is questionable says they are impaired, are extorted out of thousands and thousands of dollars, between the courts and "DUI industry" that includes MADD, counseling, AA etc well its wrong.The illegal immigrant driver who hit me, not sure what his BAC was, last heard he was refusing all tests but was easy to see he was very intoxicated.Had this fool been pulled over and arrested, would not call it extortion but the cops doing their job since he was actually intoxicated and operating a motor vehicle, which lead to a collision.Luckily, it was a relatively minor accident.

You said that the it's not ok to charge someone with a DUI as long as nothing happened. Following this logic, the police should not had him have pulled over, if they had the chance before. One law for all.
Though logic might be a strong word, following your line of thought: scientific studies about BAC levels and its relation to driving impairment are bs, but you can determine if a person is intoxicated? :88)

Just do a self test, play any driving sim, before and after a bunch of beers. Compare the round times and accident rate. Even better would be a game where unexpected things happen, e.g. GTA.

[Tribesman]

Maybe you can enlighten us. I didn't read anything about Bubblehead drinking or having a DUI. Maybe something has been edited, I don't know. And can you include who you are quoting in your quotes? It would be appreciated.


.
I shall leave that to bubbles to clear up.
He does seem to be dodging it though.

I understand where Bubblehead is coming from and I think if any one of us had an incident like this happen to them, would be equally upset...well, upset. :hmmm:

upset is natural.

It's very frustrating because the subject is unaccountable for his actions and can now probably fade away into the shadows with no recourse for his victims. It's simply not right and not what the USA is...or was about
He is not unaccountable, the laws of the land apply regardless of immigration status.

@bubbles
Nothing was edited pertaining to my drinking.I had not even had anything to drink at that point and even if I had, it would have in no way been my fault since I was parked perfectly, in a parking spot downtown.
Who said anything about "at that point"?
One of these "money rackets" you object to that hits people who drink and drive is the later loading of insurance premiums. Some people foolishly try and avoid that loading, but that makes their insurance invalid.
As for your second point, epic fail, it would just be a slightly different charge if you had of been drinking on that occasion(which no one has suggested).

[Cybermat47]

Even better would be a game where unexpected things happen, e.g. GTA.

Maybe... but if you see a Zebra pole dancing, you're not drunk, it's just a mod :haha:

[Father Goose]

He is not unaccountable, the laws of the land apply regardless of immigration status.

:har: Can't even respond to that it is so absurd. :har:

[Tribesman]

:har: Can't even respond to that it is so absurd. :har:
Nothing absurd at all, unless of course you can point to a law that says criminal laws don't apply to criminals unless they have citizenship.
Your jails are full of illegal aliens serving time prior to deportation.
One funny aspect of that silly knee jerk law Arizona introduced was that it made it nearly impossible to deport convicts after they had served their time.

[Bubblehead1980]

I shall leave that to bubbles to clear up.
He does seem to be dodging it though.


upset is natural.


He is not unaccountable, the laws of the land apply regardless of immigration status.

@bubbles

Who said anything about "at that point"?
One of these "money rackets" you object to that hits people who drink and drive is the later loading of insurance premiums. Some people foolishly try and avoid that loading, but that makes their insurance invalid.
As for your second point, epic fail, it would just be a slightly different charge if you had of been drinking on that occasion(which no one has suggested).


I'm not dodging anything! You asked in another post "what about your DUI?" I was not drinking. Yes, DUI laws are a big money racket in many ways.However, they are useful in actual cases of drunk driving.My gripe is more with the absurdly low BAC limit in most state and how people who were not actually drunk and no threat get hammered and even those who were do not just get punished, they get extorted for thousands and thousands of dollars.Higher insurance premiums and the mandatory FR-22 SR-22 insurance required after is ridiculous as well.

All of that aside, this is about immigration and the fact that my girlfriend and I were put in real danger by an individual that was not supposed to be in this country to begin with, since is an illegal immigrant.Aside from his initial criminal behavior or being in the country, he decided to operate a motor vehicle without a license, without insurance and intoxicated, then tried to fleet in his stupor and sure if I had not reached in and snatched his keys away, he would have continued trying to back away until ripped the bumper etc off and fled, no doubt causing more harm.This shows he has absolutely no respect for our country, it's laws, the rights of the actual citizens etc, has no place here but in jail and then on a bus back to whatever hole he came from, the end.

[Tribesman]

I'm not dodging anything! You asked in another post "what about your DUI?" I was not drinking. Yes, DUI laws are a big money racket in many ways.However, they are useful in actual cases of drunk driving.My gripe is more with the absurdly low BAC limit in most state and how people who were not actually drunk and no threat get hammered and even those who were do not just get punished, they get extorted for thousands and thousands of dollars.Higher insurance premiums and the mandatory FR-22 SR-22 insurance required after is ridiculous as well.


Young man stop dodging. It has nothing to do with any drinking at the time of the incident. What was your insurance status on the ladies car at the time?
Your rant about later mandatory requirements drunk drivers have to follow does kinda give the game away. Plus of course there are only really two categories of people who have a problem with drink driving laws.

Let me repeat the question that you are desperately trying to dodge.
Indeed, but the question is, did you have a right to be there in the first place?
Did your girlfriends car have its insurance loaded to cover your DUI?
If not then you had no right to be sitting where you was sitting.

[Wolferz]

You do your drinking at home.:D

[AVGWarhawk]

All of that aside, this is about immigration and the fact that my girlfriend and I were put in real danger by an individual that was not supposed to be in this country to begin with, since is an illegal immigrant.Aside from his initial criminal behavior or being in the country, he decided to operate a motor vehicle without a license, without insurance and intoxicated, then tried to fleet in his stupor and sure if I had not reached in and snatched his keys away, he would have continued trying to back away until ripped the bumper etc off and fled, no doubt causing more harm.This shows he has absolutely no respect for our country, it's laws, the rights of the actual citizens etc, has no place here but in jail and then on a bus back to whatever hole he came from, the end.

Every what a episode of COPS? Plenty of legals do the same thing as noted above. :yep:

But hey, the fix is coming courtesy of the GOP.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/new-boehner-hire-supports-path-to-citizenship-20131203

[Stealhead]

Every what a episode of COPS? Plenty of legals do the same thing as noted above. :yep:

But hey, the fix is coming courtesy of the GOP.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/new-boehner-hire-supports-path-to-citizenship-20131203


Yeah both parties want the votes and they see that giving some form of amnesty will help them land many down the road.So this problem(the problem of illegal immigration) will never be solved by a political party.Of course if companies where not giving illegals jobs in the first place there would be a lot less of them.

I agree as well drunk driving is an issue completely separate from illegal immigration.

[Jimbuna]

I agree as well drunk driving is an issue completely separate from illegal immigration.

Agreed but some obviously jump at the opportunity of knitting them together.

[Bubblehead1980]

Young man stop dodging. It has nothing to do with any drinking at the time of the incident. What was your insurance status on the ladies car at the time?
Your rant about later mandatory requirements drunk drivers have to follow does kinda give the game away. Plus of course there are only really two categories of people who have a problem with drink driving laws.

Let me repeat the question that you are desperately trying to dodge.
Indeed, but the question is, did you have a right to be there in the first place?
Did your girlfriends car have its insurance loaded to cover your DUI?
If not then you had no right to be sitting where you was sitting.



What do you mean insurance loaded to cover my DUI? That makes no sense, I was not drinking at time of the incident as you are clearly trying to say in the above sentence.

Of course I had the right to be there.I was in the city, state, and country in which I legally reside.I was in a clearly marked parking space.The insurance on her car covers anyone she gives permission to operate it unless they are specifically excluded on her policy.I had not one drop of alcohol in my system.I am dodging no question, you are simply trying to start an argument to divert from the topic, mostly due to your personal issues with me, stop, really.

[Bubblehead1980]

Every what a episode of COPS? Plenty of legals do the same thing as noted above. :yep:

But hey, the fix is coming courtesy of the GOP.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/new-boehner-hire-supports-path-to-citizenship-20131203


Legals do it, but they have to right to be in the country, this idiot who hit us did not, there is a difference.I am sure if it happened to you, would change your tune.

[Ducimus]

Agreed but some obviously jump at the opportunity of knitting them together.

The two subjects are only related in cases where a State is giving illegals drivers licenses, such as California.

Illegal immigrants can get driver's licenses under new California law (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-usa-california-immigration-idUSBRE99301I20131004)

Illegal immigration has gone on for so long, that in some areas, Politicians are now forced to pander to them for votes. (Wait, what?! :haha: ) But aside from the issue of citizenship privledges like a drivers license to non-citizens, drunk driving isn't related.

As to illegal immigration itself, so that those accross the pond might understand why this is a bugbear for some:

- economically its a problem because they undercut wages, and causes a strain to entitlements without contribution in the form of taxes.
- Politically and socially its a problem because in the case of illegals crossing from the southern border, 8 or 9 times out of 10, they do not integrate into our society. That, is the real crux of the problem at the end of the day.It's not the color of their skin, it's what they do.

Personally, I judge by actions seen. To best understand, let me explain it at a baser level:

Let's say your at your home in the evening cooking dinner. Then out of nowhere, this rather large family has dropped by unannounced. You look out your front door, and you see one of them using your garden hose (and hence your water) to wash their car in your driveway, without asking. Then you see their kids running riot, coloring all over your houses walls with crayons, while "cute", you have paper for that. Turning around into the backyard, you see a few have started using your propane to grill and have started cooking in your backyard. While it smells good, you didn't recall saying it was ok to use your propane, and in fact, you normally use charcoal for this purpose. Your own dinner being almost ready to eat, you set your own table. Your uninvited guests have then set themselves at your table, and then demand you say grace at your own table when it is not your custom to doing so. Would you not be a little angry? Now expand that in scale, from your house, to your country, and there you have it. It's the lack of intergration into the metaphorical household.

[Stealhead]

Yeah but the laws of this country apply to anyone present here not just a citizen as is the case in most every other nation so far as I am aware.
So the guy was an illegal he'll most likely serve jail time for the DUI ICE will also more than likely charge him with being in the country illegally and depending on the situation he'll be sent back to Mexico and he may or may not serve jail time for being an illegal first.


I am not an expert on the CA law but I have no doubt that the federal laws supersede anything that CA allows so ICE will still go after any illegal even if they have a CA drivers license.I suspect that the driving force(pun intended) behind the CA drivers for illegals was insurance companies gives them more customers if illegals can get a license because then they have to have some kind of insurance.That and people want votes which is why it had strong support from Republicans according to that article.

[Jimbuna]

The two subjects are only related in cases where a State is giving illegals drivers licenses, such as California.

Illegal immigrants can get driver's licenses under new California law (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/04/us-usa-california-immigration-idUSBRE99301I20131004)

Illegal immigration has gone on for so long, that in some areas, Politicians are now forced to pander to them for votes. (Wait, what?! :haha: ) But aside from the issue of citizenship privledges like a drivers license to non-citizens, drunk driving isn't related.

As to illegal immigration itself, so that those accross the pond might understand why this is a bugbear for some:

- economically its a problem because they undercut wages, and causes a strain to entitlements without contribution in the form of taxes.
- Politically and socially its a problem because in the case of illegals crossing from the southern border, 8 or 9 times out of 10, they do not integrate into our society. That, is the real crux of the problem at the end of the day.It's not the color of their skin, it's what they do.

Personally, I judge by actions seen. To best understand, let me explain it at a baser level:

Let's say your at your home in the evening cooking dinner. Then out of nowhere, this rather large family has dropped by unannounced. You look out your front door, and you see one of them using your garden hose (and hence your water) to wash their car in your driveway, without asking. Then you see their kids running riot, coloring all over your houses walls with crayons, while "cute", you have paper for that. Turning around into the backyard, you see a few have started using your propane to grill and have started cooking in your backyard. While it smells good, you didn't recall saying it was ok to use your propane, and in fact, you normally use charcoal for this purpose. Your own dinner being almost ready to eat, you set your own table. Your uninvited guests have then set themselves at your table, and then demand you say grace at your own table when it is not your custom to doing so. Would you not be a little angry? Now expand that in scale, from your house, to your country, and there you have it. It's the lack of intergration into the metaphorical household.

We have similar problems here in the UK and proportionately it would be interesting to know which of our respective countries problems are the largest.

The point I'm trying to make is that DUI offences (using US terminology) happen regardless of whether the offending party is illegal or otherwise.

I fail to see the correlation between the two.

[AVGWarhawk]

Legals do it, but they have to right to be in the country, this idiot who hit us did not, there is a difference.I am sure if it happened to you, would change your tune.

No I wouldn't. There are plenty of under insured or not insured legals driving jalopies that an illegal hitting my car would be a breath of fresh air. There is a reason I pay additional for under-insured motorist. Legal or not.

Would it made a difference if he was here on vacation driving a rental car?

[Jimbuna]

Would it made a difference if he was here on vacation driving a rental car?

I suspect...only if he were an 'illegal'.

[Tribesman]

What do you mean insurance loaded to cover my DUI? That makes no sense, I was not drinking at time of the incident as you are clearly trying to say in the above sentence.
Still dodging:haha:
Come on bubbles was her policy loaded?
The only thing that matters "at the time" is her specific insurance policy and you being the person in the drivers seat.
So was her policy loaded with that premium which hits drink drivers in the pocket that you complain about?

Of course I had the right to be there.I was in the city, state, and country in which I legally reside.

Immigrant or citizen status are entirely irrelevant, this is about laws of the road, specifically the laws regarding insurance.

The insurance on her car covers anyone she gives permission to operate it unless they are specifically excluded on her policy Bingo:yeah:
So what categories of people are specifically excluded:hmmm:
Its pretty standard fare, so are you one of those people who as standard would be excluded?
You keep on harping about not drinking "at that time" but drinking "at that time" is entirely irrelevant.

[razark]

Damnit, Tribesman, if you are insinuating that he's got a history of DUI, just say it. If you have evidence that he's covering up something, show it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Still dodging:haha:
Come on bubbles was her policy loaded?
The only thing that matters "at the time" is her specific insurance policy and you being the person in the drivers seat.
So was her policy loaded with that premium which hits drink drivers in the pocket that you complain about?



Immigrant or citizen status are entirely irrelevant, this is about laws of the road, specifically the laws regarding insurance.

Bingo:yeah:
So what categories of people are specifically excluded:hmmm:
Its pretty standard fare, so are you one of those people who as standard would be excluded?
You keep on harping about not drinking "at that time" but drinking "at that time" is entirely irrelevant.

Still dodging? I am dodging nothing.The policy covers all drivers except those specifically excluded, ie by name.For example, when I was younger I had a lot of tickets and my parents had to do a driver exclusion for me on their policies for their vehicles for a few years. My girlfriend has no such exclusions, whomever she gives permission to drive as long as they have a valid license is covered.


Yes, the driver's immigration status does matter here, he had no right to even be in the country, and if had secure borders and proper enforcement, he would not have even been here to cause a crash that could have killed us both.


They finally were able to establish his identity, he is an illegal who has been deported once, five years ago.The man is a native of Honduras, has multiple misdemeanor criminal charges and has been arraigned, currently has no bond and is awaiting his next court appearance.I have a meeting with the prosecutor next week and plan to be the biggest pain in the rear to ensure he gets the max and will do my best ot make sure he is deported after, perhaps border will be secured so he can't get back and hurt anyone else who actually belongs here.This weekend going to put together my letters to both Senators, my Congressmen and some media outlets, hoping to to help bring attention to the issue.While it may not do anything, have to try.

[Father Goose]

The man is a native of Honduras, has multiple misdemeanor criminal charges and has been arraigned, currently has no bond and is awaiting his next court appearance.I have a meeting with the prosecutor next week and plan to be the biggest pain in the rear to ensure he gets the max and will do my best ot make sure he is deported after, perhaps border will be secured so he can't get back and hurt anyone else who actually belongs here.This weekend going to put together my letters to both Senators, my Congressmen and some media outlets, hoping to to help bring attention to the issue.While it may not do anything, have to try.

I didn't realize he was still in custody with no bond set. If that's the case, I stand corrected, he may actually be accountable for his actions to some degree. I am confident if he is released, you will never see him again.

He probably doesn't have the means to make you and your girlfriend "whole" so her insurance will have to take care of the car. Thankfully neither one of you were injured.

I hesitate to mention this with fear of spiking your blood pressure...it's possible before this comes to trial that Dingy Harry and the Dems will grant him amnesty and you'll be in court with a fellow American. :eek:

[Tribesman]

Still dodging?
Yep, still dodging.:yep:

The policy covers all drivers except those specifically excluded, ie by name.

Are you trying to say that insurance companies issue policies which exclude only named individuals rather than categories of individuals:rotfl2:


@ razark.
I am just waiting to see how long he continues to dodge the question.
He knows what the question is and what the implications of it are.
And despite what he just wrote, he also knows about the mandatory requirements when it comes to insurance for people with prior.

[Sailor Steve]

This seems to have started here:
The irony being that there were two DUIs involved in this incident.
What would be really ironic is if one of the DUIs wasn't covered on his girlfriends car insurance.
Bubblehead says that the party who hit them was drunk. Where does this "two DUIs" thing come from? I see that you keep insisting that Bubblehead knows what you're talking about.

For the sake of those of us who don't have a clue, could you please explain it in plain English, without the innuendo and inferences?

[Bubblehead1980]

I think tribes is trying to reference my past concerning DUI which I may have mentioned on here before.I have had a DUI arrest back in my early 20's, so he is trying to say because of that, I had no right to be operating my girlfriend's car as a weak counter point to me saying the illegal immigrant had no right to be here since he is an, illegal immigrant lol.Like on many occasions, tribes is incorrect and simply trolling out of a personal vendetta but oh well.The claims process is complete, adjuster she will be getting a check either friday or monday so they had no problems with me being behind the wheel, esp since it was in no way, shape, or form my fault.

[Bubblehead1980]

I didn't realize he was still in custody with no bond set. If that's the case, I stand corrected, he may actually be accountable for his actions to some degree. I am confident if he is released, you will never see him again.

He probably doesn't have the means to make you and your girlfriend "whole" so her insurance will have to take care of the car. Thankfully neither one of you were injured.

I hesitate to mention this with fear of spiking your blood pressure...it's possible before this comes to trial that Dingy Harry and the Dems will grant him amnesty and you'll be in court with a fellow American. :eek:

Well I did not either until talked to the officer, who told me what he could.Took a while to ID the guy, he was booked as a john doe initially.Now, they know who he is, he is on no bond thankfully.

I am sure he is broke as can be and it's not about the money really, it's about the risk we were put at by someone who had no right to even be in the same country as us.I am glad we are okay but it's still just aggravating.

Well I am hoping I can get someone in the media to get our story out there to bring attention, of course I am sure one of us would have to be dead or close to it to really get it used to make a poing.This is just yet another example of why we must secure border and not offer amnesty.

Well the house is unlikely to go along with obama immigration "reform", base would abandon them if they did.The house may catch a lot of flak,I am thankful for the Republican controlled house everyday, able to stop much of the idiocy obama and the senate try to shove through, just too bad they did not have the numbers to stop obamacare back in 2010.

[Tribesman]

This seems to have started here:

Bubblehead says that the party who hit them was drunk. Where does this "two DUIs" thing come from? I see that you keep insisting that Bubblehead knows what you're talking about.

For the sake of those of us who don't have a clue, could you please explain it in plain English, without the innuendo and inferences?
Well the "two DUIs" would come from bubbles previously mentioning his DUI conviction on this forum.
It really is that simple, though a little knowledge of what omissions from declarations will make insurance policies null and void is needed to join the dots


I think tribes is trying to reference my past concerning DUI which I may have mentioned on here before.I have had a DUI arrest back in my early 20's, so he is trying to say because of that, I had no right to be operating my girlfriend's car as a weak counter point to me saying the illegal immigrant had no right to be here since he is an, illegal immigrant lol.Like on many occasions, tribes is incorrect and simply trolling out of a personal vendetta but oh well.
So now bubbles as that is cleared up, did you really think you could keep dodging the truth?
So.....
Are DUIs a category of person who are, as standard, specifically excluded from such open permission insurance policies as your girlfriend has. Unless of course they are specifically named and their history declared to the insurance company, and their 22 is in place and the policy is loaded with extra premium to cover that particular individual because of their history of ignoring the laws which cover vehicular use on public roads regardless of immigrant status.

Since you know all of it is true, then the simple fact which you foolishly tried to dodge is that you had no right to be sat where you was at the time of the incident.
So in future either pay the penalty for your earlier law breaking, by paying the premium to make her insurance valid, or don't get behind the wheel of a car when you are not covered.

The claims process is complete, adjuster she will be getting a check either friday or monday so they had no problems with me being behind the wheel, esp since it was in no way, shape, or form my fault Are they aware of your conviction for drunk driving?
If not you just added fraud to your list of crimes:yep:
What was it you said earlier about criminals ....
This shows he has absolutely no respect for our country, it's laws, the rights of the actual citizens etc:hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

Well the "two DUIs" would come from bubbles previously mentioning his DUI conviction on this forum.
It really is that simple, though a little knowledge of what omissions from declarations will make insurance policies null and void is needed to join the dots



So now bubbles as that is cleared up, did you really think you could keep dodging the truth?
So.....
Are DUIs a category of person who are, as standard, specifically excluded from such open permission insurance policies as your girlfriend has. Unless of course they are specifically named and their history declared to the insurance company, and their 22 is in place and the policy is loaded with extra premium to cover that particular individual because of their history of ignoring the laws which cover vehicular use on public roads regardless of immigrant status.

Since you know all of it is true, then the simple fact which you foolishly tried to dodge is that you had no right to be sat where you was at the time of the incident.
So in future either pay the penalty for your earlier law breaking, by paying the premium to make her insurance valid, or don't get behind the wheel of a car when you are not covered.

Are they aware of your conviction for drunk driving?
If not you just added fraud to your list of crimes:yep:
What was it you said earlier about criminals ....
This shows he has absolutely no respect for our country, it's laws, the rights of the actual citizens etc:hmmm:



That has to be one of the most ignorant things I have heard you say lol I am really laughing right now yet it is sad how you allow your personal issues with me to affect you on this forum since it's apples and oranges.I was never dodging the issue but you have tried your best to claim I was not sure what you were referencing since it really is irrelevant and you were too much of a, well you would not just say it.Arguing I had no right to be there and compare it to an illegal immigrant having no right to be in the country, that is a huge stretch and absolute garbage.I had EVERY right to be there as a legal citizen of this country, every right to be in that car as I have a valid driver's license, the vehicle was insured.

Also, I will be nice since you are from another country and all. and clearly do not understand some things.Since my DUI was a long time ago, this is not valid but afterward for a couple years was required to carry a special policy, SR-22 or FR-22, can't remember which one it was, but it covers the individual, no matter what vehicle, so if this was several years back, vehicle would still be covered even if her policy did not.However, since it's been quite a while, no longer required to carry that insurance. Fraud? lol you just get more and more sad.There would be no intent there but aside from that, I am covered.Not required to tell them that and no doubt that are aware as claim has been processed and expect check for repairs tomorrow or monday.Aside from that, accident was in no way my fault.Even if the policy did not cover me, which it does, what woudl it matter? I still have a right to be there in her car and it was the stupid illegal's fault for hitting us.All of that aside, you are distracting from the real issue.An idiot who had not one right to be even near us, hit us in a parked car and could have seriously injured or killed us, salt in the wound that he is an illegal immigrant and should not have been in the country, let alone on that street that night.This is the issue, how two actual citizens, with every right to be where we were, we put in danger by this degenerate.

Always amusing when you try to use past remarks against me, knowing you are taking it out of context.I was saying an illegal immigrant being here, is showing has no respect for our country's sovereignty and immigration laws.Some people have no respect for the laws but comparing a kid in early 20's who gets a DUI to an illegal immigrant, again is just not a valid comparison. Arguing with you is pointless, you are a troll but can't let your ignorance stand so oh well.

[vienna]

Always amusing when you try to use past remarks against me, knowing you are taking it out of context.I was saying an illegal immigrant being here, is showing has no respect for our country's sovereignty and immigration laws.Some people have no respect for the laws but comparing a kid in early 20's who gets a DUI to an illegal immigrant, again is just not a valid comparison. Arguing with you is pointless, you are a troll but can't let your ignorance stand so oh well.


So, let's get this straight: being a driver in his early 20's, a citizen of the US, who is fully cognizant of the laws pertaining to the safe operation of a vehicle, who is operating a vehicle while impaired and certainly impaired enough to warrant the issuance of a DUI citation is actually showing respect for the laws of the nation/state even though he is in violation of the laws, showing no respect for the safety of others and endagering lives and property? Or is it as you yourself said:


Some people have no respect for the laws...


Just wondering...


<O>

[Ducimus]

They finally were able to establish his identity, he is an illegal who has been deported once, five years ago.The man is a native of Honduras, has multiple misdemeanor criminal charges and has been arraigned, currently has no bond and is awaiting his next court appearance.

I've been to that area of Central America before. I gotta tell ya, it's a real schittehole.

[Tribesman]

Young man, how old are you?
Exactly how many years have passed since your conviction in your early 20s and now when you have just reached your mid 20s.
For how many years after conviction do insurance companies require full disclosure of previous motoring offences, especially drink driving convictions, for any vehicle which they are providing cover for?
Do you understand that you aare also supposed to declare a DUI on any life insurance policy you carry?(apparently drink driving affects your life expectancy):yep:

Even if the policy did not cover me, which it does, what woudl it matter? :haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:
It matters because it affects your right to be where you was, doing what you was doing


I still have a right to be there in her car and it was the stupid illegal's fault for hitting us Not in the drivers seat you don't.

This is the issue, how two actual citizens, with every right to be where we were, we put in danger by this degenerate.
Yes, drunk drivers are not very nice or responsible people, they are rather foolish selfish criminals.
Remind me again. What was your conviction for?:hmmm:

Some people have no respect for the laws but comparing a kid in early 20's who gets a DUI to an illegal immigrant, again is just not a valid comparison. I was comparing a drink driver with a drink driver, the law is the same regardless of immigration status

So since you are having problems understanding that your privilege is not a right, letsgo futher, all those other traffic violations you have got ticketed for, did you declare those to the insurance company?
It is required you know even if you don't accumulate enough in the 3 time periods to get a suspension
Now of course me just being a foreigner and knowing nuffin bout nuffin could you fill in a few local details.
All these traffic offences you have in addition to your drink driving, how far off are you from being classed as a habitual by your States licensing authority, which would be your Dept. of Highway Satety and Motor Vehicles in case you forgot

Fraud? lol you just get more and more sad.There would be no intent there
Oh dear.
Have you ever considered reading the declaration people sign on insurance documents?
Its all written there very plainly

[vienna]

Always amusing when you try to use past remarks against me...


...and always so easy to do so; you really make it no effort at all...


Carry on, Tribesman, you are doing quite well for an 'ignorant troll'...


<O>

[Bubblehead1980]

Young man, how old are you?
Exactly how many years have passed since your conviction in your early 20s and now when you have just reached your mid 20s.
For how many years after conviction do insurance companies require full disclosure of previous motoring offences, especially drink driving convictions, for any vehicle which they are providing cover for?
Do you understand that you aare also supposed to declare a DUI on any life insurance policy you carry?(apparently drink driving affects your life expectancy):yep:

:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:
It matters because it affects your right to be where you was, doing what you was doing


Not in the drivers seat you don't.

Yes, drunk drivers are not very nice or responsible people, they are rather foolish selfish criminals.
Remind me again. What was your conviction for?:hmmm:

I was comparing a drink driver with a drink driver, the law is the same regardless of immigration status

So since you are having problems understanding that your privilege is not a right, letsgo futher, all those other traffic violations you have got ticketed for, did you declare those to the insurance company?
It is required you know even if you don't accumulate enough in the 3 time periods to get a suspension
Now of course me just being a foreigner and knowing nuffin bout nuffin could you fill in a few local details.
All these traffic offences you have in addition to your drink driving, how far off are you from being classed as a habitual by your States licensing authority, which would be your Dept. of Highway Satety and Motor Vehicles in case you forgot


Oh dear.
Have you ever considered reading the declaration people sign on insurance documents?
Its all written there very plainly


LOL I am not classified as a habitual traffic offender, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Once again, you are trying to divert.The guy was an illegal, he had no right to even be in the country, where I as I had every right to be where I was and was driving .Asserted I had no right to be there, when I am a citizen, in my girlfriend's car, with her permission and not excluded from her insurance, is just one of the most ridiculous things you have said.

Anyways, an illegal immigrant, illegally operating a motor vehicle caused the crash and is jail and plan to do everything possible to see he serves jail time and then is sent back to the hole he crawled out of, where he belongs.Everything else is you trying to "muddy the waters" and distract.I made the post because we had just been in a discussion over the topic of illegal immigration and felt it was warranted to mention it, since I am now a victim of this massive problem.

[Bubblehead1980]

...and always so easy to do so; you really make it no effort at all...


Carry on, Tribesman, you are doing quite well for an 'ignorant troll'...


<O>


Says you, not that difficult to take remarks out of context.I was referring to an illegal immigrant, is by just being in the country, is ALWAYS disrespecting the law.I drove after a few drinks years ago, so it was more a temporary disrespect for the laws pertaining to DUI.Some laws are unjust, and therefore are no laws at all ie obamacare .Tribes, like you, has a personal agenda here.Again, distracting the real issue, illegal immigration, of which I became even more of a victim.All of us are victims by their undercutting of the labor market, their drain on the system...schools, hospitals, jails, etc but now, myself and someone I care about have been victimized further to where our physical health and lives were threatened by someone who had no right to even be in the country.How you people can okay with an illegal immigrant doing such a thing, is beyond me or anyone else with sense.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tribesman:
Young man, how old are you?
Exactly how many years have passed since your conviction in your early 20s and now when you have just reached your mid 20s.
For how many years after conviction do insurance companies require full disclosure of previous motoring offences, especially drink driving convictions, for any vehicle which they are providing cover for?
Do you understand that you aare also supposed to declare a DUI on any life insurance policy you carry?(apparently drink driving affects your life expectancy

PBJ does not show anything on your record nor does anyone who has a PBJ on a DUI have to divulge the occurrence to any entity.

Perhaps Bubs was issued a PBJ? Not sure if he was convicted. He does not state as such.

[Bubblehead1980]

I've been to that area of Central America before. I gotta tell ya, it's a real schittehole.


I understand that, an am not without sympathy.However, we can not give these people a free pass and allow so many here, most of them frankly have nothing to offer this country, they simply consume our resources and then individuals such as the fool who crashed into us, cause more than economic harm, they actually put the lives of people who have a right to be here in danger.Countless stories over the years about illegals raping, murdering, robbing etc.Sure, citizens do that but it's even more of a travesty when someone who has absolutely no right to be in this country to begin with, commits such a heinous crime on an american citizen.

The Edwin Ramos case in San Francisco always sticks out.Ramos is an illegal immigrant from el salvador and member of MS-13.Ramos had killed before and was in the country illegally. Ramos shot and killed a man and his two sons in a road rage incident.This scum should not have even been in the country to commit such a crime.

There was a rape case in my hometown a few years ago, illegal immigrant raped as 12 year old girl, again, should not have been here.These scenarios repeat themselves countless times across this country, it's just ridiculous.Fact is, some people belong here, some do not.

[mookiemookie]

most of them frankly have nothing to offer this country, they simply consume our resources

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/C/Cesar-Chavez-9245781-1-402.jpg

[Admiral Halsey]

Call me an idiot if you want but I have no clue who that is.

[Bubblehead1980]

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/C/Cesar-Chavez-9245781-1-402.jpg

Chavez was just a disgusting individual, sorry.

[Bubblehead1980]

Call me an idiot if you want but I have no clue who that is.


Caesar Chavez.Some radical marxist type who lead the fruit pickers etc back in the day, disgusting how he gets honors.I think Obama's SECNAV named a ship after him recently.Having a US Navy ship named after a marxist? SMH

[Tribesman]

Tribesman:


PBJ does not show anything on your record nor does anyone who has a PBJ on a DUI have to divulge the occurrence to any entity.

Perhaps Bubs was issued a PBJ? Not sure if he was convicted. He does not state as such.
A PBJ wouldn't result in a 22 would it
Besides which most states exclude even first offenders under DUI from trying that plea of a stay.
12 years after DUI conviction is the regular cut off point for notification on motor insurance policies. Unless of course it is a felony DUI.

@ Vienna
Carry on, Tribesman, you are doing quite well for an 'ignorant troll'...

He does make it very easy:yep:

@bubbles
LOL I am not classified as a habitual traffic offender, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Once again, you are trying to divert.The guy was an illegal, he had no right to even be in the country, where I as I had every right to be where I was and was driving .Asserted I had no right to be there, when I am a citizen, in my girlfriend's car, with her permission and not excluded from her insurance, is just one of the most ridiculous things you have said.

Oh deary me.:nope:
young man, it is not a right, driving is a privilege.
As a "legal expert" you should be able to tell the difference.

As for "habitual traffic offender", I only asked how close you are with your history of motoring offenses to be classed as such by your State.

I do like how you dig your hole even deeper for yourself.....
their drain on the system...schools, hospitals, jails, etc
OK you can have a pass on schools, but drunk drivers are a drain on hospitals and jails.:yep:

[vienna]

Says you, not that difficult to take remarks out of context.I was referring to an illegal immigrant, is by just being in the country, is ALWAYS disrespecting the law.I drove after a few drinks years ago, so it was more a temporary disrespect for the laws pertaining to DUI.Some laws are unjust, and therefore are no laws at all ie obamacare .Tribes, like you, has a personal agenda here.Again, distracting the real issue, illegal immigration, of which I became even more of a victim.All of us are victims by their undercutting of the labor market, their drain on the system...schools, hospitals, jails, etc but now, myself and someone I care about have been victimized further to where our physical health and lives were threatened by someone who had no right to even be in the country.How you people can okay with an illegal immigrant doing such a thing, is beyond me or anyone else with sense.


No agenda, Bubbles, just a real dislike and disgust of hypocrisy in all forms no matter who does it or what their agenda...

... oh wait, my mistake, you obviously have no agenda. Let's see what you do have: you have no facts to support most of your assertions; you contradict yourself continually; you make grand statements bereft of any logic or reason and expect others to accept them as truth; you dance around your shortcomings with a frenzy that would put Gregory Hines to envy; you belittle and insult others who reply ('ignorant', 'troll', etc.) to your disjointed ramblings rather than even make the weakest attempt to defend your words with any amount of logic, reason, or just plain facts; and the list goes on...

In a way your statements regarding "respect for the law" smacks quite a bit of the sort of "law and order" posturing done by the Far Right in the 60s and 70s. Nixon, Agnew and the rest of that lot swept into office roaring and thundering about "law and order" and "respect for the law", yet, when all was said and done, they and their cronies were the biggest crooks of all. In the 80s, Reagan came to office with a likewise vociferous stance on "law and order", standing against illegal immigration, and getting tough on terror: "I will never negotiate with terrorists!" and he enlisted the Religious Right as allies in his campaigns against "disrespect for law". Again, when the last of the dust settled, he and his cronies were neck deep in the Bandini having engaged in all sorts of illegal activities, making backdoor deals with Iran, granting amnesty to illegals, and generally flaunting the Constitution and laws of this nation. And what can be siad of his pious allies? Sex scandals, financial misdeeds, and all sorts of sins of the flesh and violations of the law. I do dislike hyporicsy and some of your's has me waiting for the spectacle of you weeping and asking for forgiveness like a televangelist...

You brought up the subject of laws and respect for the law. As a law student, you should know a witness has to be careful of what he expresses since any statement can open the door for opposing counsel to take that breach and widen it in order to prove their case. You have provided the basis for the other posters to refute your claims and point out your hypocrisies. The old saying about people in "glass houses" is one you ought to look up: you might learn something...


As a sidenote regarding Caesar Chavez: I have often gotten a chuckle out of the supporters of amnesty who use his name in their efforts. During the early days of Chavez's organizing of the farm workers, one of his demands was for action to be taken to halt illegal immigration; Chavez and his early farm worker associates were angered over the farm owners simply replacing the striking Union workers with newer illegal immigrants as a union busting tactic. The extent of the hypocrisy of the amnesty boosters is something they are very loathe to address...


<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

Tribesman:

A PBJ wouldn't result in a 22 would it
Besides which most states exclude even first offenders under DUI from trying that plea of a stay.
12 years after DUI conviction is the regular cut off point for notification on motor insurance policies. Unless of course it is a felony DUI.

I received a PBJ many moons ago. Nothing on my record nor will any be found. I did not need to report anything to anyone. When asked, and I was by the FBI, I did not need to relinquish the info nor did they find anything in my background check. It simply did not happen as a result of the PBJ and me fulfilling the requirements of said PBJ.

By and large, unless you have done something really heinous, DUI does go lightly for first time offenders. Large fines. Restricted license perhaps or license taken for a while.

[Penguin]

Call me an idiot if you want but I have no clue who that is.

we had a little discussion about him last year: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=195022

[Madox58]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/nuts-and-popcorn.gif

[Cybermat47]

Having a US Navy ship named after a marxist? SMH

Insert Goebbel's rant from Der Untergang here :)

[Ducimus]

/godwin X 2

This thread should have ended at page two.

http://www.allmystery.de/i/tcCioiq_polls_godwins_law_9796_0355_145812_answe.j peg

[Tribesman]

This thread should have ended at page two.

It probably would have, if bubbles hadn't kept trying to dodge the little inconvenient detail that is his conviction for drink driving.

[Madox58]

In the U.S.?
We call it drunk driving.
Can't say I really give a hoot what you call it over there.

[Bubblehead1980]

It probably would have, if bubbles hadn't kept trying to dodge the little inconvenient detail that is his conviction for drink driving.

My one DUI(funny you assume it was a conviction) and is immaterial to the discussion anyways.I was dodging nothing, you have managed to distract from the topic, like a good troll. Fact is, my girlfriend and I were injured by criminal who had no business being in the country at all, period.This thread was started as a follow up to the other discussion on illegal immigration.

[Tribesman]

My one DUI(funny you assume it was a conviction)
Are you trying to say you was not convicted:har:
and is immaterial to the discussion anyways.
young man......Kind of ironic.....
The irony being that there were two DUIs involved in this incident.
What would be really ironic is if one of the DUIs wasn't covered on his girlfriends car insurance. :yeah:

This thread was started as a follow up to the other discussion on illegal immigration.
Is that the discussion where the moderators put in a public warning about your hatred and racism?
You are really good at digging yourself into a hole ain't ya:yep:

Perhaps you should read some Vienna again and actually take it in this time....
You brought up the subject of laws and respect for the law. As a law student, you should know a witness has to be careful of what he expresses since any statement can open the door for opposing counsel to take that breach and widen it in order to prove their case. You have provided the basis for the other posters to refute your claims and point out your hypocrisies. The old saying about people in "glass houses" is one you ought to look up: you might learn something...

[CaptainHaplo]

I really wish people would stop quoting trolls..... I have them on ignore for a reason - and you quoting them makes me see their stupidity.

There is no indication - much less proof - that Bubblehead was doing anything wrong. The fact that Tribesman is allowed to simply make continual baseless accusations against someone without repercussion is reprehensible and not in line with the values of this community. I continue to wonder why some are allowed to breach conduct rules and others are not.

To the original topic - the irony is that Bubblehead has discussed the real need to deal with illegal immigration before more people are victimized by those who should not even be here to commit further crimes inside our borders - and now he has become one of those victims.

I am simply glad that there was only property damage, and no injury.

[Father Goose]

I really wish people would...

And I really wish people would learn how to use the "quote" and "multi-quote" tabs in order to actually name the person or troll who they are quoting.
Some of these people have thousands and thousands of posts and still can't seem to follow proper protocol. :/\\!!

[Sailor Steve]

It probably would have, if bubbles hadn't kept trying to dodge the little inconvenient detail that is his conviction for drink driving.
This is a "little inconvenient detail" that you and you alone seem to think matters. I will point out that you have been flogging this single-minded idea with a vengeance and passion that indicate that you don't really care about discussing the issues, just attacking your target of the week. It would be nice if you actually discussed the issues for a change.

I really wish people would stop quoting trolls..... I have them on ignore for a reason - and you quoting them makes me see their stupidity.
The problem there is that you can't answer someone's statement without quoting them. Actually you can, but that leads to complaints about not following proper forum procedures.

There is no indication - much less proof - that Bubblehead was doing anything wrong.
This much is true.

The fact that Tribesman is allowed to simply make continual baseless accusations against someone without repercussion is reprehensible and not in line with the values of this community. I continue to wonder why some are allowed to breach conduct rules and others are not.
If you check different users' infractions you will find that is not true. It only seems that way when you are looking at certain threads.

To the original topic - the irony is that Bubblehead has discussed the real need to deal with illegal immigration before more people are victimized by those who should not even be here to commit further crimes inside our borders - and now he has become one of those victims.
True, but as usual he has done so in a way that invites criticism. He tends to sound more like a radio talk-show host than a person interested in serious discussion.

Tribesman needs to learn that kicking people just for the sake of doing it is not the way to conduct an argument.

Bubblehead needs to learn that shouting opinions and claiming them to be fact is not the way to conduct a discussion. Tribesman seems to get more slack than he actually does for that very reason.


All that said, it's sounding like it's time to bring out the ban-hammer threat again and ask people a little less politely - turn down the rhetoric and conduct an honest debate, or face the consequences.

[Madox58]

bring out the ban-hammer threat

(Is this the part where we start postin' funny hammer pictures and the thread takes another turn?)
:)

[CaptainHaplo]

If you check different users' infractions you will find that is not true. It only seems that way when you are looking at certain threads.

Thanks for the reply Steve. Honestly - it may just "seem" like it based on certain threads - but the issue isn't thread by thread - its a continual and constant issue that continues despite whatever actions have been taken.

Personal attacks on other forum members are supposed to be not welcome here. At what point is the line drawn? When is "enough" truly enough?

Not my call - just voicing continued frustration. If I were out there always bringing up other people's views and personally attacking them for their past in a mocking way - how long would it be tolerated?

[Jimbuna]

Personal attacks, name calling and insults are not usually tolerated, of that you are quite correct but only when they become common place or things get out of hand is there a need for action.

Neal decides what stance in general terms moderators should take and I'm confident in my belief that a lot of leeway is given unless of course things go ballistic in short time.

To deviate from the above would bring outcries from the community of "censorship", "dictatorship" and "zero tolerance."

I believe it much better to appeal for calm and mutual respect and consideration for one another first before escalating to infractions and brig time.

[Bubblehead1980]

I would rather there be leeway than strict enforcement, it would feel more like censorship and quash a free flowing dialogue.Having said that, when it is painfully obvious that people are on a personal kick like Tribes and Vienna at times, mostly Tribes, some actions such as a
PM even are warranted.I rarely personally attack a member on here, they go after me because they have no argument, instead try to tear me down personally. This thread has been a great example, a very minor incident my early 20's that I believe in the long run was for best, as it made me understand some things.I mentioned this as it was relevant in another thread and tribes has tried to use it to personally attack me and say I had no room to be angry about an illegal immigrant running into the car that my girlfriend and I were in.We are innocent victims of this fool's criminal behavior. I can handle it but it does get annoying, especially when I am pretty sure if I heaved in such manner, I would be in the brig.I was put there for much less but as a conservative white male in 2013 America, I am used to not catching breaks many others enjoy.

[Sailor Steve]

I I rarely personally attack a member on here, they go after me because they have no argument, instead try to tear me down personally.
Now I have to get personal again. They don't go after you because they have no argument. They go after you because you have no argument, but general complaints and wide-brush attacks on groups, which you claim aren't personal but you include members by association, thereby making yourself look innocent while attacking anyone who disagrees with you, just without naming names. That tactic doesn't make you any less guilty than those who come at you directly. If anything, they're being honest about their attacks.

That doesn't make the attacks right. That said, we allow them up to a point because of your own posting habits. They aren't entirely unwarranted.

This thread has been a great example, a very minor incident my early 20's that I believe in the long run was for best, as it made me understand some things.I mentioned this as it was relevant in another thread and tribes has tried to use it to personally attack me and say I had no room to be angry about an illegal immigrant running into the car that my girlfriend and I were in.We are innocent victims of this fool's criminal behavior.
I agree up to this point. I have also asked that the attacks stop here. I said it politely but it was not just a request.

I can handle it but it does get annoying, especially when I am pretty sure if I heaved in such manner, I would be in the brig.I was put there for much less but as a conservative white male in 2013 America, I am used to not catching breaks many others enjoy.
And that was the point at which you lost my agreement. You were not brigged for much less, though you keep making that claim. You were politely asked to do one thing. When you argued about it you were told why it was a bad idea. When you continued to argue you were warned. It wasn't until you chose to mock the moderator who was cutting you a lot of slack that enough was enough, and you were finally brigged. You were given a lot of breaks, and refused to listen. This is exactly what happens with some others here, and will continue to happen. You are treated no worse than anyone else here.

You now pull out the radio-host "conservative white male" argument. You could not be further from the truth, at least where Subsim is concerned. You are called on the carpet, disputed with, and mocked, not because of your beliefs, but because of your way of expressing them as absolute fact without ever offering any real evidence as to why anyone should believe them. It's your posting style that brings you this grief, and your unwillingness to address any real contradictions to your claims. You avoid any post that gives real facts, and if you occasionally do it's with vague denials, after which you wait a page or two and then bring up the exact same claim which has already been disproven.

No, with a couple of exceptions you do not have detractors here. You have people who see things differently, and do a fair job of countering your claims, to which you give replies that practically beg for mockery, then cry "personal attack" when someone does so.

You and your "detractors" are two sides of the same coin, and neither of you seem to be able to see it.

[Jimbuna]

I would rather there be leeway than strict enforcement, it would feel more like censorship

I've already mentioned that "I believe it much better to appeal for calm and mutual respect and consideration for one another first before escalating to infractions and brig time." "I believe it much better to appeal for calm and mutual respect and consideration for one another first before escalating to infractions and brig time."

PM even are warranted

There are people in this thread and many others I have PM'd warning of potential future consequences.

especially when I am pretty sure if I heaved in such manner, I would be in the brig

Are you sure? I have given you a warning on more on one occasion rather than going down a more serious route.

My advice to EVERYONE would be not to respond to anything such as baiting, insults or name calling...report a post and let the moderators sort it.

The alternative is matters getting out of hand and the moderator having no other option than to act in a remedial way.

[Madox58]

There are people in this thread and many others I have PM'd warning of potential future consequences.

I'll vouch for that.
:D

The alternative is matters getting out of hand and the moderator having no other option than to act in a remedial way.(Is THIS where we do the funny pictures or still to early?)
:hmmm:

[Father Goose]

I really wish people would stop quoting trolls.....

The problem there is that you can't answer someone's statement without quoting them. Actually you can, but that leads to complaints about not following proper forum procedures.

To be clear, I don't care if you quote or not quote.
What I was trying to point out is if you're going to quote please include the "Originally Posted by", at least for the first quote. Steve did it correctly above in post 93 & 98. Then his following quotes did not have to repeat it since it was the same person. CaptainHaplo always does it correctly too. But others...:nope:

It makes it easier for the reader to follow who is being quoted instead of back-tracking through the thread to find who said what. That's all. :)

[Tribesman]

I mentioned this as it was relevant in another thread and tribes has tried to use it to personally attack me and say I had no room to be angry about an illegal immigrant running into the car that my girlfriend and I were in.We are innocent victims of this fool's criminal behavior.
Bubbles, do not misrepresent what I have said.
I have made no comment at all about you being angry. Your anger is perfectly understandable. Or as I put it earlier to Father Goose about the circumstances....
upset is natural.

My comments focus entirely on what you claim was your right at that time, and what in reality is really your right at that time(though of course your State does point out that it is a privilege not a right).

Oh and one more thing I think I should point out as you seem completely unaware of how the industry works.
The claims process is complete, adjuster she will be getting a check either friday or monday so they had no problems with me being behind the wheel, esp since it was in no way, shape, or form my fault.
Insurance is big money business. When that assessor/adjuster sends the check the claims process isn't complete.
It is at that point or even weeks later the file will land on the desk of someone like my wife, its amazing how many "straightforward" no fault payouts they flag up on simple things like disclosure.

[Sailor Steve]

And I really wish people would learn how to use the "quote" and "multi-quote" tabs in order to actually name the person or troll who they are quoting.
Some of these people have thousands and thousands of posts and still can't seem to follow proper protocol. :/\\!!

What I was trying to point out is if you're going to quote please include the "Originally Posted by", at least for the first quote.

It makes it easier for the reader to follow who is being quoted instead of back-tracking through the thread to find who said what. That's all. :)
I was going to reply to your first quote but forgot. I completely agree; it's a real pain to go back and look to see who was being quoted. The Quote button is easy enough to use. Others have also complained about this.

[mookiemookie]

as a conservative white male in 2013 America, I am used to not catching breaks many others enjoy.

Ah, the centuries long struggle of the white male against the racism and prejudice against him in the world continues.

Help, help, you're being repressed!

[kranz]

I'm just wondering whether Tribesman keeps a record of us all here or only of particular users...:hmm2:

[Tribesman]

I'm just wondering whether Tribesman keeps a record of us all here or only of particular users...:hmm2:

:har:
Unfortunately I am cursed with a good(or should that be terrible)memory, if I read anything it means that I have read it and can recall it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Bubbles, do not misrepresent what I have said.
I have made no comment at all about you being angry. Your anger is perfectly understandable. Or as I put it earlier to Father Goose about the circumstances....
upset is natural.

My comments focus entirely on what you claim was your right at that time, and what in reality is really your right at that time(though of course your State does point out that it is a privilege not a right).

Oh and one more thing I think I should point out as you seem completely unaware of how the industry works.

Insurance is big money business. When that assessor/adjuster sends the check the claims process isn't complete.
It is at that point or even weeks later the file will land on the desk of someone like my wife, its amazing how many "straightforward" no fault payouts they flag up on simple things like disclosure.

Reviewed her policy(by the way, she is already a lawyer) and I was well within rights to be operating her vehicle as I suspected but I get your point and in some cases may be applicable.I think your dislike for me and mine for you interfere with our discussions at times.

Driving is a privilege sure, but I have that privilege as I have a valid driver's license and was operating, with permission my girlfriend's vehicle which was insured and was in no way , shape, or form excluded from her policy.I have basic knowledge, probably what most people have who do not work or deal with the "industry" on a daily basis, it's a corrupt one for sure.

[Bubblehead1980]

Ah, the centuries long struggle of the white male against the racism and prejudice against him in the world continues.

Help, help, you're being repressed!


The past does not matter, any person who owned a slave etc is dead.Currently, the only truly oppressed ethnicity in the US is the white male, particularly the middle to upper middle income male.Due to the tough economy, law school has been incredibly difficult for my parents and I to pay for.Nearly anything aside from loans(which are difficult to get for a while male not from the ghetto) , which we have tried to avoid so am not indebted to the federal government for most of my life but sadly did have to apply for some, is there to help non white students and those from "poor" backgrounds. I have one term left and honestly, not sure how are going to pay for it and January is right around the corner.

The incident I mentioned, where the illegal alien trash ran into us and I had to remove his keys so he could leave the scene, if he had become violent or had even been able to(was so heavily intoxicated) and I had been compelled to use force, in particular my pistol I had on me, not telling what kind of trumped up charges I could have been hit with.Some arbitrary hate crime crap from the feds etc, fortunately it did not go that route but still, non whites do not live with that fear.There have been cases in media where it was black on white crime, with blacks yelling racial terms and should have been charged with hate crimes, does not happen but if reversed, you bet they would be nailed with a hate crime.

Affirmative Action is still the law, the most racist laws we have.This insults many minorities and should every one as it says even if you are not quite as good as the white guy, you get a leg up because you are black.Want real equality? Everything must be on MERIT, not something like race, class etc.

Racism is wrong, no matter who it is directed at.

[Sailor Steve]

^ ^ ^

Good answers, especially the first one. Olive branches are always welcome. :sunny:

[mookiemookie]

The past does not matter Bull. The past contains decades of discrimination of minorities. If your family has been discriminated against in hiring, salary, and housing for decades, you are not going to have as much wealth and sometimes education as those who did not have to deal with such discrimination.

This puts it as succinctly as anything I'd care to type

http://i.imgur.com/u1yQ8kz.png

[CaptainHaplo]

Mookie - that is ridiculous.

Does racism happen? Sure it does. But the so called "cartoon" you post assumes that every "white" has stood upon the back of a chained "black" to get "above" them.

Now - I have never owned a slave, nor have I utilized racial repression as a way to get ahead of others. So I have no culpability or responsibility for it.

Have you owned a slave? Or have you kept other races repressed so you could get ahead? If so, when did you write your last reparations check?

If you haven't written one yet - then why don't you lead by example. Or are you too good to live by your own highbrow moralism?

On the off chance you have a significant amount of pigmentation in your skin, don't forget about the Irish slaves - among others. Better still write that check.

Lastly - the idea that people - including myself - don't do anything to help out the "poor, downtrodden blacks" - reparations have been collected by the government for a long time and distributed to the poor - of all races. Its called welfare. And 61.2% of recipients are not Caucasian. So apparently I pay reparations - even to people that some distant 3rd cousin once removed 5 generations back didn't even enslave.....

[TarJak]

I think the point he made is valid. Even if every ancestor of yours was not directly involved in owning slaves, they cannot help but to have received benefits economically from the slavery that existed in the USA.

[Tribesman]

Mookie - that is ridiculous.

Does racism happen? Sure it does. But the so called "cartoon" you post assumes that every "white" has stood upon the back of a chained "black" to get "above" them.

Now - I have never owned a slave, nor have I utilized racial repression as a way to get ahead of others. So I have no culpability or responsibility for it.

Have you owned a slave? Or have you kept other races repressed so you could get ahead? If so, when did you write your last reparations check?

If you haven't written one yet - then why don't you lead by example. Or are you too good to live by your own highbrow moralism?

On the off chance you have a significant amount of pigmentation in your skin, don't forget about the Irish slaves - among others. Better still write that check.

Lastly - the idea that people - including myself - don't do anything to help out the "poor, downtrodden blacks" - reparations have been collected by the government for a long time and distributed to the poor - of all races. Its called welfare. And 61.2% of recipients are not Caucasian. So apparently I pay reparations - even to people that some distant 3rd cousin once removed 5 generations back didn't even enslave.....
I am afraid that post is absolutely ridiculous.
While I am certain that it can be backed by "facts" from numerous white supremacist groups, I am of the opinion that that just illustrates how ridiculous the post is.

I do like the "idea" that welfare is reparation for things like slavery, segregation and institutionalised racism though, that is a real gem.
:har:

[CaptainHaplo]

I think the point he made is valid. Even if every ancestor of yours was not directly involved in owning slaves, they cannot help but to have received benefits economically from the slavery that existed in the USA.


Tarjak - while that may be the case - at what point does the responsibility end? Seriously. Consider this. Maybe your great grandfather shot someone and killed them. So should you suffer the death penalty or imprisonment for that? How is it appropriate that you are defined as a murderer and have a duty to "pay" for the crime of your ancestor? Maybe it wasn't your ancestor - maybe it was your ancestor's neighbor that did it - but your ancestor "allowed it" (because of the concept of a responsible society) so they are culpable anyway.

Slavery is - in our society - a crime. I am glad it is. At no time have I ever said that slavery was "good". The point that you call valid would be if I - or others - were the ones who owned slaves. We would owe them because of it. But I wouldn't have owned slaves anyway - so the idea that I am somehow responsible to "right the wrongs" of other generations societal actions is ridiculous.

If repression of blacks was wrong - then repression of whites to let minorities "get ahead" is just as wrong. Both are racism. An equal playing field is what is right.

Yes - things like the education system fail minorities. Yet the worst schools often get the most money. Allowing parents the right to send their kids (regardless of race) to successful schools would close the education gap. Throwing more money at bad schools has proven to not do so.

[Bubblehead1980]

I really wish I had time to type out the response I would like right now but I do not.The "chip on your shoulder" view many non whites in this country have and those who support them with their liberal white guilt, just beyond reasonable thinking.I assure you my family and I have no benefits from slavery, no wealth has been passed down for generations, nor has it for most people.Really, if anything, we are suffering due to the exploitation of emotions attached that ugly chapter in our history by politicians and a segment of the population to achieve political power via votes.Unfortunately, in the hyper emotional world of the 1960's, they pushed things to where laws were passed that LEGALLY discriminates against white people.Reverse Racism in action and sadly it is still the law.Hopefully, Supreme Court will overturn AA at some point in near future.Bottom line, we should all be treated equally, can't change the past, so people need to let go and allow everyone to be judged on their merits, the content of their character, not the color of their skin and past actions of their ancestors.

The struggle of racial equality for non whites in America was once very real and at times, it still is.However, institutionalized racism towards non whites is gone, it is illegal.Individual cases of racism will always happen.With 312+ million people in a population which is so diverse, it will happen on all sides, nothing can do about it but make sure institutional racism, real racism does not exist.Now, that the race card is for most part played out, notice the new "victim" struggle is for LGBT "community" , someone always has to have a "victim" to exploit and sadly, most of our brain dead population for fall for it when the real issues of our time are economic.Government causing a stagnant economy, taxing like crazy, and 7(officially) percent unemployed but in reality it's about 16%.

[TarJak]

Tarjak - while that may be the case - at what point does the responsibility end? Seriously. Consider this. Maybe your great grandfather shot someone and killed them. So should you suffer the death penalty or imprisonment for that? How is it appropriate that you are defined as a murderer and have a duty to "pay" for the crime of your ancestor? Maybe it wasn't your ancestor - maybe it was your ancestor's neighbor that did it - but your ancestor "allowed it" (because of the concept of a responsible society) so they are culpable anyway.

Slavery is - in our society - a crime. I am glad it is. At no time have I ever said that slavery was "good". The point that you call valid would be if I - or others - were the ones who owned slaves. We would owe them because of it. But I wouldn't have owned slaves anyway - so the idea that I am somehow responsible to "right the wrongs" of other generations societal actions is ridiculous.

If repression of blacks was wrong - then repression of whites to let minorities "get ahead" is just as wrong. Both are racism. An equal playing field is what is right.

Yes - things like the education system fail minorities. Yet the worst schools often get the most money. Allowing parents the right to send their kids (regardless of race) to successful schools would close the education gap. Throwing more money at bad schools has proven to not do so.

My read of his point was that it's not about responsibility or when it ends. It was simply that the playing field is not an even one because of past practices. This is what you are complaining about whilst being in an advantageous position.

[CaptainHaplo]

My read of his point was that it's not about responsibility or when it ends. It was simply that the playing field is not an even one because of past practices. This is what you are complaining about whilst being in an advantageous position.

Your right - it is not even. Now minorities get a "boost up" when others do not. What your basically saying is that "uneven" is the correct stance. I disagree. If holding down one subset of people was wrong before - then its wrong now.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

How do you figure that I am somehow in an "advantageous position"?

[Tribesman]

Your right - it is not even. Now minorities get a "boost up" when others do not. What your basically saying is that "uneven" is the correct stance. I disagree. If holding down one subset of people was wrong before - then its wrong now.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

How do you figure that I am somehow in an "advantageous position"?

Well that is simple to answer.
Since welfare is apparently reparations for slavery segregation and institutionalised racism, if you ever claim welfare you get it without having all that crap behind you, you lucky whitey, oh the joys of pale pigmentation, all the advantageous "free" stuff without the persecution.

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, tone back the rhetoric, please.

[TarJak]

Well that is simple to answer.
Since welfare is apparently reparations for slavery segregation and institutionalised racism, if you ever claim welfare you get it without having all that crap behind you, you lucky whitey, oh the joys of pale pigmentation, all the advantageous "free" stuff without the persecution.

QED

[Tribesman]

Okay, tone back the rhetoric, please.
OK hows this?

Allowing parents the right to send their kids (regardless of race) to successful schools would close the education gap.

I was under the impression that segregated education was made illegal many years ago.
Are you suggesting that this method of persecution based on skin colour is still practiced?:hmmm:

I could perhaps follow it up with something about some black folks who were generously allowed to attend a church as part of its congregation(which is nice:03:), until they got too uppity and thought that they would be allowed to have their marriage conducted in the "white" church they attended by the pastor who preached to them every Sabbath.

[CaptainHaplo]

QED

Really - your going to quote idiocy as your proof? An "answer" that ignores things like racial quota's in schools and affirmative action in the workplace.

Reverse racism (and sexism) is being instituted in elementary schools today. Just look at Harvey Scott K-8, where a lunchtime drum circle is held - but only for "Black or Brown" kids. White and American Indian boys not allowed. Girls not allowed at all. The same kind of thing happens all day long when you look at the quota system we have in colleges, or the affirmative action requirements in the workplace. When programs intentionally lift up mediocrity (again - regardless of race) over those more qualified - its not equality.

The "equal rights movement" wasn't about reverse racism - but that is the outcome today.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tribesman:

Allowing parents the right to send their kids (regardless of race) to successful schools would close the education gap.

They are allowed. However, economic/financial gap often eliminate any idea of attending affluent schools. I certainly can not afford Harvard for my kids. Also, the area some folks live attribute to the quality or lack there of in the school. The school system I live some students are bused to other schools within in the district. Some idea of making it all equal. Not sure if it works.


I was under the impression that segregated education was made illegal many years ago.
Are you suggesting that this method of persecution based on skin colour is still practiced?

Segregation was eliminated years ago. However, through the use of pricing certain folks out of the housing market in particular areas leads to predominantly white schools for that neighborhood. Although it is not "practiced" as some claim it is alive and well.

I could perhaps follow it up with something about some black folks who were generously allowed to attend a church as part of its congregation(which is nice), until they got too uppity and thought that they would be allowed to have their marriage conducted in the "white" church they attended by the pastor who preached to them every Sabbath.

This has never happened in any churches I have attended. Nor would I attend such a church. I can not account for all churches as this issue has been in the news recently. I believe in Mississippi area if I'm not mistaken.

[Sailor Steve]

OK hows this?
I find nothing wrong with your sentiments on this. Your wording seemed a bit inflammatory, is all. :sunny:

[Ducimus]

Bull. The past contains decades of discrimination of minorities. If your family has been discriminated against in hiring, salary, and housing for decades, you are not going to have as much wealth and sometimes education as those who did not have to deal with such discrimination.

This puts it as succinctly as anything I'd care to type

http://i.imgur.com/u1yQ8kz.png


While history should be acknowledged and learned from, the present and the future should not be subservient to it. If one is going to judge today's generations by the actions of their grandfathers who may or may not have had anything to do with discrimination at all, how is one any different from what they are speaking out against?

[Bubblehead1980]

I swear sometime in the future, as a social experiment I am going to pay for hollywood style prosthetic makeup to make me look black.Talking Robert Downey JR Tropic Thunder style, go out and see how I am treated in various ways among white people and latinos over time.Willing to bet it's not as it is portrayed for the most part.

[AVGWarhawk]

I swear sometime in the future, as a social experiment I am going to pay for hollywood style prosthetic makeup to make me look black.Talking Robert Downey JR Tropic Thunder style, go out and see how I am treated in various ways among white people and latinos over time.Willing to bet it's not as it is portrayed for the most part.

I wager it is.

[Tribesman]

I find nothing wrong with your sentiments on this. Your wording seemed a bit inflammatory, is all. :sunny:
I just thought it was a humorous take on an exceptionally ridiculous point which someone had advanced.

Though of course I would say that this.....
Really - your going to quote idiocy as your proof? An "answer" that ignores things like racial quota's in schools and affirmative action in the workplace.
Reads like very inflammatory trolling and a personal attack which neither addresses the point made or defends the point which was countered.:hmmm:

Do you think I should report it to them moderator fellows?:03:

[Tribesman]

Tribesman:






.
Yep, sadly it is alive and well, which does kinda make all those claims about them bad ol' days being over somewhat invalid.
And that last piece is indeed bad, how those bigots could call themselves "Christian" is beyond belief, if that pastor had an ounce of integrity or any shred of christian decency he would have quit the job told the hate filled white supremacist idiots to get off his errrr.....bus.

[TarJak]

I swear sometime in the future, as a social experiment I am going to pay for hollywood style prosthetic makeup to make me look black.Talking Robert Downey JR Tropic Thunder style, go out and see how I am treated in various ways among white people and latinos over time.Willing to bet it's not as it is portrayed for the most part.

Its been done. https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=_BymUvXZFoTTkAXn24HYAw&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLNw4H2k1wyw&cd=4&ved=0CEEQtwIwAw&usg=AFQjCNHIeKZbgmqzUpPcNCqVQE04U2Z2VQ&sig2=ZTRlJyjDA2NYPDV2r3phaw

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=_BymUvXZFoTTkAXn24HYAw&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DYDMlHyu282A&cd=10&ved=0CFMQtwIwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFeiB2hlVF3QkkV-Yu1fybq4zK3WQ&sig2=f05s1W-k1w1ecRqObZQDMQ

[TarJak]

Really - your going to quote idiocy as your proof? An "answer" that ignores things like racial quota's in schools and affirmative action in the workplace.

Reverse racism (and sexism) is being instituted in elementary schools today. Just look at Harvey Scott K-8, where a lunchtime drum circle is held - but only for "Black or Brown" kids. White and American Indian boys not allowed. Girls not allowed at all. The same kind of thing happens all day long when you look at the quota system we have in colleges, or the affirmative action requirements in the workplace. When programs intentionally lift up mediocrity (again - regardless of race) over those more qualified - its not equality.

The "equal rights movement" wasn't about reverse racism - but that is the outcome today.

Really? You've missed the point again? I'm not going to explain it a third time.

[Bubblehead1980]

Its been done. https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=_BymUvXZFoTTkAXn24HYAw&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DLNw4H2k1wyw&cd=4&ved=0CEEQtwIwAw&usg=AFQjCNHIeKZbgmqzUpPcNCqVQE04U2Z2VQ&sig2=ZTRlJyjDA2NYPDV2r3phaw

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=_BymUvXZFoTTkAXn24HYAw&url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DYDMlHyu282A&cd=10&ved=0CFMQtwIwCQ&usg=AFQjCNFeiB2hlVF3QkkV-Yu1fybq4zK3WQ&sig2=f05s1W-k1w1ecRqObZQDMQ


lol the 5 percenter guys are the kind of trash that are the problem.They preach black supremacy but the feds are not knocking down their door as they would KKK.Hmmm Also, I would make sure my make up was much better, his is not very convincing.

Amazes me how angry he got about the kid yelling the N word haha.People overreact to that word, esp white liberals.The Aussie guy getting so angry, so effeminate, least intimidating guy ever lol his voice just sounds weak.

[Tribesman]

Bubbles I think you need a geography lesson.

[Bubblehead1980]

Bubbles I think you need a geography lesson.


Australia* I mean, watched it again.

[TarJak]

:har: I agree that the 5% guys are part of the problem but I don't see the KKK's doors getting knocked down any more than theirs. Both organisations should not exist but they do and from what I see in the media they are both as bad as one another and treated that way.

How angry should anyone get about a racial slur?

John Safran is a skinny white jewish bloke from Melbourne Australia. He has a squeaky voice. Does that make him effeminate? If you check out more of his work you'll find he's certainly got some stones. How willing are any of us to put ourselves into extremely uncomfortable positions?

The map early in the video shows where Melbourne is. :D

[CaptainHaplo]

Really? You've missed the point again? I'm not going to explain it a third time.

You haven't explained anything once. You simply claim that whites have some wonderful automagical advantage. When I challenged you to enumerate how that is so - and provided points to show it is not accurate - you whine about a missed point. In other words, you have no response and can't do more than make a baseless claim. Gotcha.

[TarJak]

:har: I'm not the one whining. If you don't understand what's been presented to you then that's your problem. Your response showed that you missed the point in the first place and had nothing to do with the original point of mookies post ir my clarification of it.

[CaptainHaplo]

:har: I'm not the one whining. If you don't understand what's been presented to you then that's your problem. Your response showed that you missed the point in the first place and had nothing to do with the original point of mookies post ir my clarification of it.

No whining involved - and you still continue to avoid the question. Because you can't answer it. Nor could Mookie. You make baseless claims and then when confronted, avoid the issue like the plague. That is just sad...... Expected, but sad.

[AVGWarhawk]

You simply claim that whites have some wonderful automagical advantage.


I'm a white guy. I'm positive from my past experiences being a white guy I have in some cases "automagical" advantage over people of color.

[Tribesman]

I'm a white guy. I'm positive from my past experiences being a white guy I have in some cases "automagical" advantage over people of color.

Yep, it really is a no brainer, someone would have to be pretty far gone to claim otherwise.
So is there anyone who is that far gone in this topic?

[TarJak]

No whining involved - and you still continue to avoid the question. Because you can't answer it. Nor could Mookie. You make baseless claims and then when confronted, avoid the issue like the plague. That is just sad...... Expected, but sad.

I'm a white guy. I'm positive from my past experiences being a white guy I have in some cases "automagical" advantage over people of color.


Yep, it really is a no brainer, someone would have to be pretty far gone to claim otherwise.
So is there anyone who is that far gone in this topic?

Mookies point was clearly not lost on others.

[mookiemookie]

You haven't explained anything once. You simply claim that whites have some wonderful automagical advantage. When I challenged you to enumerate how that is so - and provided points to show it is not accurate - you whine about a missed point. In other words, you have no response and can't do more than make a baseless claim. Gotcha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

[Tribesman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
You are just being cruel mookie, you only posted that link because it has the "angry white male" bit at the bottom.

[AVGWarhawk]

You are just being cruel mookie, you only posted that link because it has the "angry white male" bit at the bottom.

Yes but I find this interesting:

White privilege functions differently in different places. A person's white skin will not be an asset to them in every conceivable place or situation. White people are also a global minority, and this fact affects the experiences they have outside of their home areas. Nevertheless, some people who use the term "white privilege" describe it as a worldwide phenomenon, resulting from the history of colonialism by white Europeans. One author argues that American white men are privileged almost everywhere in the world, even though many countries have never been colonized by Europeans.[34][35]
In some accounts, global white privilege is related to American exceptionalism and hegemony.[36]

[Tribesman]

Yes but I find this interesting:
One advantage the Irish have in that worldwide angle, as a nation they havn't invaded or colonised any of those far flung places, millions of micks all round the world, but the locals blame the Brits.
I suppose we could call that global white Irish privilige:har:

[Bubblehead1980]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege


That is the biggest load of crap ever, makes me so angry every time some fool spews this nonsense.I assure you that I, as a white male, have no special privileges.Perhaps 60 years ago, maybe even 50 but now? No.Really, if anyone has such privileges, it is everyone but white people, especially white males.SMH

[razark]

The funny thing about being in the privileged class is that one tends not to notice that one is in the privileged class.

[Tribesman]

The funny thing about being in the privileged class is that one tends not to notice that one is in the privileged class.
Not all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c

[CaptainHaplo]

What is ironic is that even the link shows 3 important things, 2 of which demonstrate a significant slant.

1) The concept of "white privilege" is hotly debated. Thus its existence is a matter of opinion based on an individual's personal experience.

2) Every example provided by the linked page points to historical examples of racism, yet does not provide any contemporary examples. For example, it notes that the Federal Housing Act in 1934 formalized the ability to exercise racism in housing - but it entirely fails to note that Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 removed that ability and prohibited using race as a factor in determining housing availability. In essence, it makes the argument that "white privilege" existed significantly prior to WW2. Yet it is unable to make a compelling argument for its existence since the Civil Rights movement.

3) In examining the incarceration rates of blacks vs whites, it infers a system that favors whites because whites are those in power inside the system. However, it again fails to point out facts that demonstrate that incarceration rates do not tie to the "white controlled" justice system. A perfect example is South Africa, where during white control, the incarceration numbers (and deaths/abuses during incarceration) were significantly LOWER than when the ANC took control. Given that those numbers have not returned to pre-colonial levels even today, more than 20 years after the end of "white control" - there is no corollary as inferred.

Its funny - the bias above happens all the time on Wiki - and it happens on both sides. Its one reason why most people will tell ya not to use wiki as a source LOL. Also funny that those who want to claim "white privilege" exists have yet to give one concrete example of it - instead pointing to a slanted page that itself admits the idea is a "debated" concept.

[mookiemookie]

Gee, how could 300 years of a system with economic, educational and social aspects rigged in favor of one group have any lingering effects? It doesn't! It all went away overnight. Everyone, black and white, reaped the benefits of their forefathers' abundant wealth and educational opportunities, because you see, the Civil Rights Act was magic! It magically went back in time and undid all the nasty things that happened in the past. That's why the past doesn't matter anymore, you see!

[Bubblehead1980]

Gee, how could 300 years of a system with economic, educational and social aspects rigged in favor of one group have any lingering effects? It doesn't! It all went away overnight. Everyone, black and white, reaped the benefits of their forefathers' abundant wealth and educational opportunities, because you see, the Civil Rights Act was magic! It magically went back in time and undid all the nasty things that happened in the past. That's why the past doesn't matter anymore, you see!


Look, no law, etc can undo the crimes of the past, no one denies the horrible things that happened.However, to say that white people, in today's society have privilege over others, is absurd.Plenty of poor and working or even middle class white people who are just as disadvantaged as black people, it's more about economics than race.People like to use race as a crutch in their arguments, it's crap.Yes, some people of all races are still racist, it's a natural human thing, to fear/dislike etc what is different.However, our society as a whole is not like that now.Institutional racism against non whites is gone but legal against whites(affirmative action) and racism persists in the form of liberal white guilt, thinking any non white needs a leg up to get ahead, not capable of doing so on their merits.That is the most racist thing of all!

I assure you I am enjoying no privilege of wealthy white forefathers etc Really, if I was I would not have had to practically beg for a tuition deferment recently while my parents and I scrape together the money to finishing paying for law school.Non whites have a much easier time getting grants, etc to pay for their education, not even based on merit, simply because they are not white.YEAAA , that is not racist lol. he economy has hurt white people, as it hurt black people, sorry but in today's world there is no white privilege.

Those who have actual privilege in this country, the super wealthy(difference between rich and wealthy) and political "elite" use things such as race to keep us divided and not united.They use economics as well, use propaganda against the "rich" , it really is sad so many people are so simple they can be persuaded by such a lame argument, but it happens.

[Armistead]

Gee, how could 300 years of a system with economic, educational and social aspects rigged in favor of one group have any lingering effects? It doesn't! It all went away overnight. Everyone, black and white, reaped the benefits of their forefathers' abundant wealth and educational opportunities, because you see, the Civil Rights Act was magic! It magically went back in time and undid all the nasty things that happened in the past. That's why the past doesn't matter anymore, you see!

Well, govt sure hasn't solved the problems with all it's social programs. The black family was a fairly strong unit before govt took over, now look at it....We certainly needed more laws, but govt never knows when to stop.....and liberals are calling for more of the same....spread the wealth hasn't worked.

[Bubblehead1980]

I really would love to feel unity with people of all races, cultures etc in this country but it's incredibly difficult when know the view that I as a white man am "privileged" in their eyes, it just makes me angry.Of course, no all non white people feel this, I have some non white friends who have no sense of racial entitlement, don't resent others but at times, it feels like they hold the minority view.They are not liberals and far as I know, none of them voted for dear leader, so who knows.

Really though, we eradicated institutional racism on non whites, need to finish it off against whites and hopefully over time the "private" racism in the culture will go away, as much as it will on it's own.However, if this has to happen, black/latino etc citizens must let go of the past, drop their racism or things will never change.

[Tribesman]

However, to say that white people, in today's society have privilege over others, is absurd. Bubbles have any people looked at you, say at the school canteen or something and thought you were probably a terrorist who was up to something because of ethnic origin or...what was it again?
oh yeah they smelled funny.
If this hasn't happened to you then you have benefited from having a white skin.

Now extend that to other situations and you should get the point.

Really though, we eradicated institutional racism on non whites,
Can you explain the earlier mentions of schools and churches still practicing racist discrimination then, those are institutions, schools would be a pretty important institution.

[Father Goose]

However, to say that white people, in today's society have privilege over others, is absurd.

Very good point. A man of color in the White House is exhibit A.

A person can either choose to work and succeed or stand around and make excuses, and that goes for all races.

[CaptainHaplo]

Gee, how could 300 years of a system with economic, educational and social aspects rigged in favor of one group have any lingering effects? It doesn't! It all went away overnight. Everyone, black and white, reaped the benefits of their forefathers' abundant wealth and educational opportunities, because you see, the Civil Rights Act was magic! It magically went back in time and undid all the nasty things that happened in the past. That's why the past doesn't matter anymore, you see!

No one said it went away overnight. But there have been nearly 2 full generations since the Civil Rights Act was passed. The claim that "institutional racism" or "white privilege" has survived and prospered just doesn't hold water. Does racism still exist? Of course - you always will have a few ignorant folks out there. No law can end all racism any more than any law can end all crime. But at this point its outliers vs the norm. Lingering effect? Sure, you get the oddball that wants to sit on Jerry Springer in his Grand Dragon robes. But its not the norm. If it was, you wouldn't have had the outcome of the last 2 presidential elections.

Sadly, programs like affirmative action are institutionalized racism against the grandsons and granddaughters of those who did ill due to racial discrimination. Those grandsons and granddaughters did not do the ill - yet they are the ones that are discriminated against because of the guilty conscience of society over history. It is this fact that makes the idea of modern day "equal opportunity" a fallacy. Either the field is level and based on individual merit and ability, or it is not equal. When there are expectations of quota's do insure proper "diversity" - things are not based on merit and ability.

I also note that there was no response on the claim regarding the justice system and its supposed "white bias". Were you unable to refute the facts about crime in South Africa?

[Oberon]

Eleven pages...eleven pages of the same argument going back and forth between people who will never change their viewpoint?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xWoVnlsLkgo/UPXVQdmPOPI/AAAAAAAAFKM/vPn3IXiOyn8/s1600/farnsworth+futurama+meme+i+don't+want+to+live+on+t his+planet+anymore+good+news+everyone+lol.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Hey, you take your entertainment where you can find it. :O:

[Oberon]

Hey, you take your entertainment where you can find it. :O:

Never really been one for tennis myself, more of a cricket man. :03:

[Bubblehead1980]

Bubbles have any people looked at you, say at the school canteen or something and thought you were probably a terrorist who was up to something because of ethnic origin or...what was it again?
oh yeah they smelled funny.
If this hasn't happened to you then you have benefited from having a white skin.

Now extend that to other situations and you should get the point.


Can you explain the earlier mentions of schools and churches still practicing racist discrimination then, those are institutions, schools would be a pretty important institution.


No, but not every person sees an arabic person and assumes terrorist.However, the major terror threat we face is from islamic terrorism, many arabs are muslim, people see them and think, okay.Right? no but just something you can not change? yes.

Yes, the persians in one of my class do smell funny, sorry but they do.That is not racist, I actually have met these people and they do smell weird.There is a running joke about how people from that part of the world smell, different cultures, hygiene habits, etc but no all day, so it is a stereotype and they happened to fit it, all I was saying.


What schools and churches are practicing discrimination? Some may but it's not lega and certainly not the policy of the government at federal or state/local level to discriminate, thus institutional racism towards non whites is mostly eradicated.However, it does exist towards white due to affirmative action and other policies that give "minorities" a leg up in many areas.


I am just confused by your failure to see it.I am not denying racism existed and still does on some levels but it's not as it is made out to be by the race baiters and power elites who use race to divide and conquer.

[CaptainHaplo]

Thinking a certain type of people smell funny is racist now?

African American women tend to use a lot of coconut scented oil - and to me that's a funny smell. Psychologically speaking, smell is one of the most powerful mental triggers we humans have. When I smell coconut oil, my mind associates that with black women. That isn't racism, its a Pavlovian type mental response.

Many French women - and many "tree huggers" who love the "European idealistic lifestyle" who emulate them here where I live - don't shave or bathe. Guess what - they smell funny too. Just not in any way that can be considered "good". Does noticing 3 weeks of built up BO make me racist too?

When I eat too much garlic - I smell funny too. Also not in a good way. It seeps through the pores. When I notice that - am I being racist against my garlic loving race?

PC is idiocy that sometimes knows no bounds....

[Tribesman]

No, but not every person sees an arabic person and assumes terrorist.However, the major terror threat we face is from islamic terrorism, many arabs are muslim, people see them and think, okay.Right? no but just something you can not change? yes.

Yes, the persians in one of my class do smell funny, sorry but they do.That is not racist, I actually have met these people and they do smell weird.There is a running joke about how people from that part of the world smell, different cultures, hygiene habits, etc but no all day, so it is a stereotype and they happened to fit it, all I was saying.


.
Now extend that to other areas. Take your statement from school and put it in the workplace
You made a statement about a group of people based on their ethnicity, stated that they were dodgy because of that and were probably terrorists who were up to something.

What schools and churches are practicing discrimination?
As for schools, well you will have to ask Haplo that, he raised its continued practice in his attempt to ....errrrr ...say these thing didn't happen anymore:oops:
In regards to churches , don't you remember the story? it was quite big in the news. Apparently old habits die hard in some places in the States.



@haplo
Thinking a certain type of people smell funny is racist now?

Errrrrrr....no:doh:
the smelly part was included to make sure Bubbles knew exactly which statement I was referring to.
Nice rant though, it makes you look ....well kinda......:har::har::har::har:

[Sailor Steve]

the smelly part was included to make sure Bubbles knew exactly which statement I was referring to.
That is debate, up to a point. At least you explain what you're doing.

Nice rant though, it makes you look ....well kinda......:har::har::har::har:
That is nothing but straight-up insult.

[CaptainHaplo]

That is nothing but straight-up insult.

Sometimes that is all some people have left.


As for schools, well you will have to ask Haplo that, he raised its continued practice in his attempt to ....errrrr ...say these thing didn't happen anymore:oops:


Either you were unable to actually get the point, or you are intentionally being difficult. I expect the latter - and that you are purposefully misrepresenting what I posted. The example I gave was one in which whites and females were being discriminated against based upon their race and gender. It was intentionally pointed out as an example of "reverse racism" - just like affirmative action.

[Father Goose]

Eleven pages...eleven pages of the same argument going back and forth between people who will never change their viewpoint?

An excellent observation. What do they say is the definition of insanity? :hmmm:

[Buddahaid]

http://www.thaimokit.com/photo/Poster/Movie/SP-WM351-bi-Himmel-Huhn.jpg

[Tribesman]

That is nothing but straight-up insult.
Is it though?
How would you describe missing the point entirely and then going off on one about what he thought it was





Either you were unable to actually get the point, or you are intentionally being difficult. I expect the latter - and that you are purposefully misrepresenting what I posted. The example I gave was one in which whites and females were being discriminated against based upon their race and gender. It was intentionally pointed out as an example of "reverse racism" - just like affirmative action.
Since you missed the point your example has nothing to do with it.
You are attempting to show that your skin colour does not give you an automatic advantage, a magical advantage as it were.
Take the example of automatic discriminatory behaviour exhibited in the example and apply it to the workplace, use it again in regards to commonly heard and held stereotypes about blacks or Hispanics.
The white prilivige is undeniable, your points about discrimination against whites and women is irrelevant, because although two wrongs don't make a right your claim is that the white privilege doesn't exist.

[Sailor Steve]

Is it though?
How would you describe missing the point entirely and then going off on one about what he thought it was.
Yes, it is. The fact that in your opinion he missed the point entirely deserves correction, explanation and proof that you are right. What you gave was mockery, and nothing else. that's insult, and we don't do that here.

Not for long, anyway.

[TarJak]

Yes, it is. The fact that in your opinion he missed the point entirely deserves correction, explanation and proof that you are right. What you gave was mockery, and nothing else. that's insult, and we don't do that here.

Not for long, anyway.

Oh yes we do. All day every day. Taking the piss out of each other is a time honoured tradition here.

[Tribesman]

Oh yes we do.
Oh no we don't.