View Full Version : An interesting development
Stealhead
11-26-13, 02:11 PM
A message has been conveyed so to speak.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-flies-b-52-bombers-chinas-air-defense-172803843.html
Ducimus
11-26-13, 02:16 PM
Yeah I saw mention of that on the BBC earlier today and thought it an interesting development.
Sailor Steve
11-26-13, 02:17 PM
Nothing for China to worry about. Those old grannies couldn't hurt a fly.
:rotfl2:
Jimbuna
11-26-13, 02:32 PM
Well it certainly made front page on the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011
Red October1984
11-26-13, 07:59 PM
Interesting, yes...
I don't think there'll be a war coming out of this. Our govt is too busy sitting on its hands.
Stealhead
11-26-13, 08:06 PM
Interesting, yes...
I don't think there'll be a war coming out of this. Our govt is too busy sitting on its hands.
The fact that two B-52s made that little show of force kind of proves that they are not sitting on their hands.If that where the case this thread would not be in existence.
Will China or Japan or the other Asian nations go to war over this? I highly doubt it.What China is doing is flexing its military muscles to see how other nations react to it.They just got a message today.
More than likely China will raise issue over this area and others over the next few years again to test the reaction.China is still at best about 20 years away from equalizing the technology gap between its military power and that of the United Sates.Until they feel confident of that they have a viable chance at victory should a conflict occur they will not make a real move.
They still have Taiwan(Republic of China) to "repatriate" as well and that will be their big move though they might try taking some smaller claim first.
Skybird
11-27-13, 04:41 AM
Interesting, yes...
I don't think there'll be a war coming out of this. Our govt is too busy sitting on its hands.
Some people compare the situation to a "Balkanization" of the region, meaning to compare it to the circumstances that in 1914 led to a world war that nobody wanted, but everybody stumbled into in sort of a sleepwalk. That both in China and Japan a strengthening in nationalism accompanied latest political changes, has added to the rise in tensions. The US must be concerned about the very realistic chance of being drawn into a huge regional war due to their ally Japan spilling fuel into the fire. On the other side is China with clear ambitions and claims that it cannot give up if it wants to become the big power it wants to be. If Japan, SouthKorea and Taiwan however will get the Chinese away with it and accept the disputed sea region to become territorial water of China, then not only means this a loss of resources believed to be in the sea region, but a signal of accepting Chinese blackmailing and imperial dominance, putting the sovereignity of other nations into questions.
The only possible compromise is a dirty one, and that is the international cooperation in winning those resources. How that could be achieved I have no clue, and beyond that I see no chance that this conflict loiters on endlessly without sooner or later breaking out openly.
It's one of these global hotspots where danger is maximum. And no, it is not about just two rocks in the sea with a flock of goats on them.
Skybird
11-27-13, 04:47 AM
The fact that two B-52s made that little show of force kind of proves that they are not sitting on their hands.If that where the case this thread would not be in existence.
Or it is just one of these meaningless Obamanian symbolic gestures. Like his worthless speeches about Syria stepping beyond red lines. Or his meaningless appeasements to the Israelis while de facto getting the Iranians away with their nuclear bomb intentions.
He let two B52 do a practice flight. And I cleaned my basement yesterday.
Cybermat47
11-27-13, 04:56 AM
I wonder if those B-52s were flying from Australia. The USAF has a base here.
I wonder if those B-52s were flying from Australia. The USAF has a base here.
No the report said Guam and returned to Guam. No reason they would have come from down under.
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 08:55 AM
The Chinese claim they were monitoring both aircraft.
China monitored the flight of two US bombers that flew across its newly-declared "air defence identification zone", its defence ministry said.
"China's air force monitored the entire course [of the US bombers], identified them in a timely way, and ascertained the type of US aircraft," the statement said.
"China will identify all aircraft activity in East China Sea Air Defence Identification Zone", it added. "China has the ability to effectively manage and control the relevant air zone."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25099123
THE_MASK
11-27-13, 06:17 PM
Shouldn't japan put a flag on one of the islands . Then china can try to spam it with multiple aircraft etc .
Our mob called the Chinese ambassador in for a stern chat voicing our concerns about their expanded air space and today got a firm sod off from Beijing
Admiral Halsey
11-27-13, 08:28 PM
The Chinese claim they were monitoring both aircraft.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25099123
Yeah and i'm the queen of England. They probably didn't know they had even been there until the report came out.
Cybermat47
11-27-13, 08:48 PM
No the report said Guam and returned to Guam. No reason they would have come from down under.
Didn't see that part.
Stealhead
11-27-13, 09:16 PM
Or it is just one of these meaningless Obamanian symbolic gestures. Like his worthless speeches about Syria stepping beyond red lines. Or his meaningless appeasements to the Israelis while de facto getting the Iranians away with their nuclear bomb intentions.
He let two B52 do a practice flight. And I cleaned my basement yesterday.
No one is watching you clean your basement though unless you have some rodent hiding out down there and be now has taken a defense posture in response to your aggression.:03:
I disagree at least in the US every large scale military exercise that is carried out is done so primarily to display to those who are observing our military power.When nations take part in joint exercises the same message is sent with the additional message that the participants are also allies.
It seems to be a moot point though if someone truly say Obama as weak then they would take action.If China was so bold they would not be talking they'd be doing China is as spineless as Obama.
That's diplomacy for you. It's all about the talking to stop the doing.
Wolferz
11-28-13, 06:32 AM
The B-52's were just the decoys. China didn't, couldn't see the stealth bombers flying over Beijing.:huh:
Jimbuna
11-28-13, 06:38 AM
Our mob called the Chinese ambassador in for a stern chat voicing our concerns about their expanded air space and today got a firm sod off from Beijing
Not surprising...I doubt they take much notice of any nation.
Yeah and i'm the queen of England. They probably didn't know they had even been there until the report came out.
I do agree there...your Majesty :)
Now Japan and South Korea have joined in the fun:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25133957
Chinas bluff has been completely called and there's sod all they can do about it without creating a major incident.
As Kenny once said "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run...."
Jimbuna
11-28-13, 08:06 AM
I'm wondering how big that gas field is and are China willing to risk an armed conflict to protect it :hmmm:
Maybe in a few years when Taiwan looks like being secured.
Skybird
11-29-13, 10:46 AM
Chinese interceptors scrambled to identify 2 US surveillance and 10 Japanese EW and fighter aircraft.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25155605
Local civilian airlines comply with the Chinese demands. Which definitely is the wrong signal, I think, it sets a precedence for accepting territorial claims that the Chinese in the future can fall back to by saying: "But if you disagree with our claims, why have you accepted our rules in the past?" The correct answer would have been to either ignore the Chinese demand and have an international cooperation that secures protection of civilian flights in the Chinese zone of aggression by Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Taiwanese and American fighters, or to fly around the area - and ban all Chinese carriers to fly to and land in those countries that refuse to enter that zone.
But in the long term, signalling obedience and compliance will prove to have been the worst possible choice, I'm sure. I cannot help myself, I just do not believe in showing weakness, indifference and signs of intimidation being wise. Never.
Admiral Halsey
11-29-13, 11:21 AM
It's times like this when we could use Teddy Roosevelt's Big Stick policy.
Skybird
11-29-13, 11:35 AM
Did he buy his stick paying in cash or via credit card?
Jimbuna
11-29-13, 12:26 PM
Let us hope no pilot gets trigger happy from either side because this could escalate in a matter of minutes if not seconds.
Catch-22 for airlines, if they ignore the new airspace rules then they get accused of putting passengers lives at risk, but if they obey them they get called weak and subservient.
It's not particularly likely the Chinese would shoot down an airliner, but a military patrol aircraft...well, I doubt they'd gun for a US aircraft, but they might try their luck with a Japanese EW aircraft, perhaps create another Hainan Island Incident.
Jimbuna
11-29-13, 04:22 PM
The NK once shot down a civilian airliner so why should the Chinese be different?
I wouldn't want to put that to the test.
Skybird
11-29-13, 04:32 PM
The carriers should therefore refuse to fly there and their homenations should ban Chinese carriers operating in their airspaces.
The Japanese operate fighters in the region now, not only EW. The Japanese flights shadowed by the Chinese, were 4 recce planes and 6 fighters.
The Chinese have seen recent political changes, that include a party-wanted drive in nationalism. They feel themselves strong enough, maybe they are drunk of themselves, but still they feel themselves strong. Recall the sky plane jncident from 7 or 8 years ago. Their self-confidence has not shrunk since then. And their ambitions in the region are such that they cannot accept to come out second in the race for those sea areas.
I fear it is a confrontation that most likely is set to turn hot one day.
Jimbuna
11-29-13, 04:35 PM
The carriers should therefore refuse to fly there and their homenations should ban Chinese carriers operating in their airspaces.
The Japanese operate fighters in the region now, not only EW. The Japanese flights shadowed by the Chinese, were 4 recce planes and 6 fighters.
The Chinese have seen recent political changes, that include a party-wanted drive in nationalism. They feel themselves strong enough, maybe they are drunk of themselves, but still they feel themselves strong. Recall the sky plane jncident from 7 or 8 years ago. Their self-confidence has not shrunk since then. And their ambitions in the region are such that they cannot accept to come out second in the race for those sea areas.
I fear it is a confrontation that most likely is set to turn hot one day.
Whilst I agree, the problem being it could escalate into something totally out of proportion to what is at stake and give the Chinese the opportunity to assert themselves in an area where 'united' opposition could deal them a telling blow.
Admiral Halsey
11-29-13, 04:44 PM
The NK once shot down a civilian airliner so why should the Chinese be different?
I wouldn't want to put that to the test.
I think you mean the Soviets once shot down a civilian airliner. Actually they shot down two of them.
Jimbuna
11-29-13, 04:57 PM
Yes, I stand corrected.
Armistead
11-29-13, 06:20 PM
This could get interesting long term
http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/25/21612262-chinas-inflammatory-airspace-announcement-draws-sharp-rebuke-from-us
I truly hope they will find a peacefull solution to the problem
I do not dare to think what would happen...if...
Markus
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209470
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=209470
Haven't we been talking about this for the last week or so?:hmmm:
The NK once shot down a civilian airliner so why should the Chinese be different?
I wouldn't want to put that to the test.
It would create too many waves for them, rock the boat too much. China is pretty smart at knowing just how far to push something, and it would be massively bad publicity for the cause if they were to shoot down a civilian airliner.
The carriers should therefore refuse to fly there and their homenations should ban Chinese carriers operating in their airspaces.
The Japanese operate fighters in the region now, not only EW. The Japanese flights shadowed by the Chinese, were 4 recce planes and 6 fighters.
The Chinese have seen recent political changes, that include a party-wanted drive in nationalism. They feel themselves strong enough, maybe they are drunk of themselves, but still they feel themselves strong. Recall the sky plane jncident from 7 or 8 years ago. Their self-confidence has not shrunk since then. And their ambitions in the region are such that they cannot accept to come out second in the race for those sea areas.
I fear it is a confrontation that most likely is set to turn hot one day.
You're putting national pride before money, do you seriously think businesses would do that? :03:
Perhaps some elements of the party are drunk with power, but I doubt that the upper levels are, they know that they are still balancing their whole nation on the growth level of the economy which is gradually slowing down. A war right now with a major power (aka the US) would break the economy and create a second revolution from the far-left groups. There's a lot of folk in the rural regions of China that could be mobilised against the city powerbases if the Maoists got enough power behind them.
I could, however, see an incident happening. Most likely a collision, and this will raise tensions in the area even higher, especially if the Japanese or American crew survive and are taken prisoner by the PRC. I also can't rule out some hotshot jock accidentally getting overexcited and lobbing off a missile, especially if two groups of fighters start playing chicken with each other, which they likely will.
Aktungbby
11-29-13, 09:45 PM
I could, however, see an incident happening. Most likely a collision, and this will raise tensions in the area even higher, especially if the Japanese or American crew survive and are taken prisoner by the PRC. I also can't rule out some hotshot jock accidentally getting overexcited and lobbing off a missile, especially if two groups of fighters start playing chicken with each other, which they likely will.
That already happened a few years back when a hot shot chinese fighter swooped too close and went permanently into the sea and our electronic surveillance plane had to emergency land on Hainan.:rock:
Jimbuna
11-30-13, 06:31 AM
Threads merged.
Skybird
11-30-13, 08:03 AM
You're putting national pride before money, do you seriously think businesses would do that? :03:
Certainly not...! Trade is the best antidot to warmongers. But nationalism is running high in Japan and China, and the Chinese government has installed new political bodies that supervise a hardening of the foreign political course. And yesterday I read about two opinion countings a newspaper did in China (=poll), both with over one hundred thousand participants. 99% said that China must do everything to ensure that it claims national sovereignity over the disputed island and the whole sea region, and 90% accepted that China will need to wage war against Japan and crush it in order to do so. Its that old thing from WWII again, too. So call it irrational, but I fear trade has little word in these sentiments.
Today I read that the US government told American carriers to obey the Chinese demands. At the same press conference the speaker said - put into plain English - that this obedient behavior is not to indicate obedience to the Chinese demands.
Obama does what he does best: weaseling. The us probably has no other choice - war against the main supporter of the dollar system? Let the Chinese give up on the dollar, and the American debt system collapses. So Obama wants to keep the box closed, sticking to American claims in the region by posturing as the great military friend its allies can trust in, and knowing very well at the same time that America will not and cannot wage war against China over this or any other issue. It's too broke. What we can expect of this policy, we can see over Syria, and more important: Iran. Bog mouthes, loud words, plenty of empty gestures - but shying away from robust reaction while pretending one still is strong and determined. In the ME this is about to trigger a new nuclear arms race. What it will means for the Far East, remains to be seen. China still holds the trumps, no matter its inner problems, which - I agree - are mounting. Different to the Western nations now, they seem to learn and try to adopt and change. Compare that to the EU and US internal policies! Stagnation, sticking to what one already had excessively, not leaving the runaway train and staying with it until it slams into the mountain. The communists in China turn capitalistic - the Wets turns socialistic. China possibly prepares a gold standard, the West celebrates iron vows of loyalty to its debts and paper money. And Japan, having a debt level of over 2000%... ah, don't get me started on Japan. My mentor and trainer was Japanese, and he saw it coming already in the early 80s.
If a train travels on rails, its course is perfectly predictable.
Skybird
11-30-13, 08:20 AM
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/828755.shtml#.Upm2_cTuKri
Aktungbby
11-30-13, 02:25 PM
Obama does what he does best: weaseling. Bog mouthes, loud words, plenty of empty gestures - but shying away from robust reaction while pretending one still is strong and determined.
We say 'Bluffing' or 'Shukkin n' Jivin' :Din other cases... as for 'trains on a predictable course'...you betcha', especially on the Schiefflin Plan...twice!:O::rotfl2:
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