View Full Version : Subsim front page article that pissed me off
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/nazi-submarine-found-java-sea-wwii_n_4320031.html
Nazi Submarine Torpedoed During WWII Likely Found With Crew's Remains (PHOTOS)
Have some respect please. Not all kriegsmarine sailors were nazis, and most of them were not. Even so, you've just labeled the whole german submarine crew anti-semantic fanatic.
Have some respect for the dead comrade who died for something he believed in, his country. For God's sake.
Madox58
11-23-13, 05:35 PM
Well it was a Nazi Sub as it was a German Sub.
At that time all Subs belonging to the Germans were NAZI Subs!
Don't mean the Men onboard were Nazi's.
You need to read between the headlines.
Nazi draws more readers then WWII sub found.
Cybermat47
11-23-13, 05:40 PM
Perhaps you should take that issue up with the people who wrote the article, not the person who copy and pasted it :03:
Well it was a Nazi Sub as it was a German Sub.
At that time all Subs belonging to the Germans were NAZI Subs!
Nazis and Germans aren't the same thing. Not all Nazis were German and not all Germans were Nazis.
I understand where your coming from that the label stuck even though it isnt politically correct. Just because the government was national socialist doesn't mean the military should be labeled as such. Just because the US has a Democrat in office does that mean we should call all our troops Democrats or Dems?
Don't mean the Men onboard were Nazi's.
You need to read between the headlines.
Nazi draws more readers then WWII sub found.
It certainly grabbed my attention, because its disrespectful I think to the German veterans. Most were fighting for their nation, and because they were proud to be German. Others probably fought because they had no choice but to.
Herr-Berbunch
11-23-13, 05:45 PM
The title is copied verbatim from the one the Huffington Post used, as are all news articles. If you don't like it complain to the originator.
You and I both know not all the guys on a U-boat were nazis, not all the service personnel were Nazis, not all Germans were Nazis (and nor are they now!) - here you are preaching to the choir. Take it to your politicians and journalists to not sensationalize/stereotype and you'll be onto a winner for sure. :up:
Perhaps you should take that issue up with the people who wrote the article, not the person who copy and pasted it :03:
I think both have a bit of the responsibility involved. The writer of the article has more, but the reposter has some too. Don't just blindly repost things.
The title is copied verbatim from the one the Huffington Post used, as are all news articles. If you don't like it complain to the originator.
You and I both know not all the guys on a U-boat were nazis, not all the service personnel were Nazis, not all Germans were Nazis (and nor are they now!) - here you are preaching to the choir. Take it to your politicians and journalists to not sensationalize/stereotype and you'll be onto a winner for sure. :up:
Its coming. There will be a media evolution with it soon. Too soon yet? Not sure, many ww2 vets have already passed, so the time may be now.
Madox58
11-23-13, 06:15 PM
I don't know who died on that U-boat.
They may or may not have been Nazi Party.
What I do know.
It was a Nazi U-Boat.
It was sunk.
It was found.
Everyone on that U-Boat is dead for a long time now.
They were found and now a proper place as to where they rest is known.
I salute them for doing thier Duty no matter what they believed in at that moment in time.
Maybe some were Nazi. They died for what they believed in.
I can only hope I am remembered in such a way.
Nippelspanner
11-23-13, 06:24 PM
We had the same discussion a few years ago when another "Nazi vessel" was found. I am not too happy with this term as it is just to attract readers, a cheap marketing strategy so to say, but I also believe you take all of this a little...too serious?
I am German, so one could think I take articles like that more personal but even I can see that the article is clearly talking about the vessel, the u-boat and not the sailors. Otherwise it would have used crappy labels like "Nazi crew" or whatever...
Well, as I said... you might take all of that a little too serious...
mookiemookie
11-23-13, 06:36 PM
Just because the US has a Democrat in office does that mean we should call all our troops Democrats or Dems?
Well if the Democrats outlawed all other parties as Hitler did in 1933, if the Democrats made their party symbols the official symbols of the country, and if the government was run entirely by the Democrats, then yes you could make that comparison.
But since the Nazi party was the ruling party of the time, to the exclusion of all others, it is fair to call it a Nazi submarine.
Schroeder
11-23-13, 06:45 PM
While I as a German find the title disrespectful as well I think this labelling goes all the way back to WWII were it was common place to label German equipment and troops as Nazi >insert equipment or soldier here<.
I've stopped being angry about it, I think it's just tradition to call German WWII stuff Nazi-something and I'm not even sure the non Germans even think much about it.
They may or may not have been Nazi Party.
Even that wouldn't proof anything. People got bullied into joining the party. My great grandfather for example had several children and was beyond a certain age. Both would have protected him from being drafted yet he was explicitly told by authorities that he would be drafted if he continued to refuse to join the Nazi party. Now with children at home and the outlook of an assignment at the eastern front how would most people decide?
He actually still refused and was drafted to the eastern front (becoming a "Nazi soldier") but I would not have held it against him if he had just signed that piece of paper instead considering what was at stake.
Cybermat47
11-23-13, 06:49 PM
He actually still refused and was drafted to the eastern front (becoming a "Nazi soldier") but I would not have held it against him if he had just signed that piece of paper instead considering what was at stake.
Good on him for sticking to his principles.
I hope he survived.
Madox58
11-23-13, 06:51 PM
I don't care what the crew believed or what party they belonged to for whatever reason.
They died on that day.
They are gone. Pining for the fjords or whatever.
They EARNED our respects as Service Members who died in Combat.
I salute those brave men!
:salute:
Schroeder
11-23-13, 06:54 PM
Good on him for sticking to his principles.
I hope he survived.
Yes, just to die horribly from lung cancer a few years later because of the garbage they smoked when real tobacco became rare.:/\\!!
Well if the Democrats outlawed all other parties as Hitler did in 1933, if the Democrats made their party symbols the official symbols of the country, and if the government was run entirely by the Democrats, then yes you could make that comparison.
But since the Nazi party was the ruling party of the time, to the exclusion of all others, it is fair to call it a Nazi submarine.
The submarine is a machine, it does not decide on what political ideology it is. It's not a living thing. The submarine was military equipment, it was not a party standard or a nazi flag. The submarine is not Nazi, it is German Kreigsmarine.
Cybermat47
11-23-13, 07:02 PM
The submarine is a machine, it does not decide on what political ideology it is. It's not a living thing. The submarine was military equipment, it was not a party standard or a nazi flag. The submarine is not Nazi, it is German Kreigsmarine.
And the German Kriegsmarine was under the command of Adolf Hitler.
It was a Nazi U-Boat.
Your blending the political party with the military. These are two separate things. Sometimes they shared units, like the paramilitary forces that consisted solely of Nazi sympathizers, but this uboat was not one of those shared units.
And the German Kriegsmarine was under the command of Adolf Hitler.
For a time.
The uboat was not a member of the party, nor did it belong to the party. The uboat belonged to the military and the government.
Hitler was Chancellor first, then dictator. The chancellor post he held belonged to the government. He was a member of the Nazi party. Once he became dictator the government changed into a dictatorship, controlled by the Nazi party. The government was a separate entity from the party, but the latter controlled the former. But they are not the same. The military/government owned that boat. And also a case can be made that the military and the government were not the same entity. In the last days of the war leading members of the military became the leaders of the government and asked for peace.
Your blending...
Madox58
11-23-13, 07:10 PM
You want to argue the title placed on the Sub by media types.
That's funny as hell!
:haha:
You want to argue the title placed on the Sub by media types.
That's funny as hell!
:haha:
I know, its illogical. But some are defending the title. The title was picked for an attraction of readership alone. It's not the correct title to use.
Nippelspanner
11-23-13, 07:17 PM
I know, its illogical. But some are defending the title. The title was picked for an attraction of readership alone. It's not the correct title to use.
Well then go sue the writers or complain there.
Here, this is going nowhere I guess.
We had the same discussion a few years ago when another "Nazi vessel" was found. I am not too happy with this term as it is just to attract readers, a cheap marketing strategy so to say, but I also believe you take all of this a little...too serious?
I am German, so one could think I take articles like that more personal but even I can see that the article is clearly talking about the vessel, the u-boat and not the sailors. Otherwise it would have used crappy labels like "Nazi crew" or whatever...
Well, as I said... you might take all of that a little too serious...
Well its a double standard here in America. Someone uses the N-word (racial slure) in media and they lose their career. But were still throwing around the Nazi word on men who sacrificed greater things than anyone of us have, their lives, and we keep chugging away at it like nothing bad was said. Its wrong. Calling a dead veteran a nazi when he isn't one is more disrespectful in my eyes, then a racial slur about a living person. Because that dead vet can't defend himself, and now you've just tarnished how he will be remembered for the rest of humanity. The living guy can change all that because he's still breathing.
But its not just being used on one dead vet, its getting thrown around like its hot off the press. The term is abused like no other. It really is.
Madox58
11-23-13, 07:21 PM
It's a way to sell news. Nothing more.
I'll hope Skybird comments as I love his thoughts on things such as this.
:yep:
Subsim just posts the news and links. Others create those.
Well then go sue the writers or complain there.
Here, this is going nowhere I guess.
Well, subsim re-posted it to their front page. Which essentially is advertising the articles to subsim readers. I want to know subsim's stance on the issue. It's important to me, and whether or not I will spend anymore of my time here.
Nippelspanner
11-23-13, 07:24 PM
Well its a double standard here in America. Someone uses the N-word (racial slure) in media and they lose their career. But were still throwing around the Nazi word on men who sacrificed greater things than anyone of us have, their lives, and we keep chugging away at it like nothing bad was said. Its wrong. Calling a dead veteran a nazi when he isn't one is more disrespectful in my eyes, then a racial slur about a living person. Because that dead vet can't defend himself, and now you've just tarnished how he will be remembered for the rest of humanity. The living guy can change all that because he's still breathing.
But its not just being used on one dead vet, its getting thrown around like its hot off the press. The term is abused like no other. It really is.
I agree with you, but not in this case.
There is not the slightest hint that the article calls the crew "Nazi", really. Not even if you try hard reading between the lines... It's just not there. They labeled the sub as "Nazi" for reasons stated earlier, for no other reason.
Herr-Berbunch
11-23-13, 07:27 PM
I'll hope Skybird comments as I love his thoughts on things such as this.
:yep:
http://images.wikia.com/creepypasta/images/4/49/WALL_OF_TEXT...PREPARE.jpg
j/k Sky :03:
As I've already said, you're preaching to the choir. How's the response from Huff Post? :hmmm:
Nippelspanner
11-23-13, 07:30 PM
Well, subsim re-posted it to their front page. Which essentially is advertising the articles to subsim readers. I want to know subsim's stance on the issue. It's important to me, and whether or not I will spend anymore of my time here.
This board has some mighty-fine members with big hearts and minds. We also have some nutcases (which we hold dearly and pet them daily) - but over all this is a great place compared to the hell-holes you find elsewhere in the internetz tubes.
I don't know anyone here who would disrespect German soldiers for being a part of Hitlers manic ego-trip. But I'd rather speak for myself, just wanted to share my opinion after being a part of this mess for 10 years (OMG?)
Madox58
11-23-13, 07:32 PM
that dead vet can't defend himself
No. He can't.
But I saw nothing that states all crew were Nazi's.
I only see a Nazi Sub was found. Which is true.
Will the unknowing general population believe all Crew members were Nazi's?
Probably. That's why News media state such things as they do.
It sells. And don't think for a moment selling has nothing to do with it!
You bought into it by starting this thread!
:haha:
Claim it how you want, Mate. But you got sold!
:har:
Schroeder
11-23-13, 07:33 PM
Well, subsim re-posted it to their front page. Which essentially is advertising the articles to subsim readers. I want to know subsim's stance on the issue. It's important to me, and whether or not I will spend anymore of my time here.
I've never experienced anti German sentiments here. The site owner himself has travelled several times to Germany to meet with Subsim members so I don't believe he has any anti German feelings either.
The huffpost headline is 100% correct and accurate regardless of the crews political leanings. The flag that flew above that submarine (when it wasn't submerged) was the swastika. That makes it a nazi sub.
My own grandfather served in the Luftwaffe from 1939-45. He was certainly no nazi, just a conscripted farmer but the 88mm gun he operated, like that submarine, existed only to serve the nazi cause. That makes them nazi weapons and it is completely accurate and proper to refer to them as such.
Madox58
11-23-13, 07:39 PM
I don't believe he has any anti German feelings either.
You never saw the light house shirt right?
:hmmm:
It's not really 'anti-German'.
More like 'WTF are you looking at'?
:D
Which makes as much sense as this thread.
:03:
Veterns from all over this thing we call Earth Salute our Enemies for thier Service.
I even respect the terrorists for thier commitment.
They are Soldiers at the very lest and that earns my respect.
The huffpost headline is 100% correct and accurate regardless of the crews political leanings. The flag that flew above that submarine (when it wasn't submerged) was the swastika. That makes it a nazi sub.
My own grandfather served in the Luftwaffe from 1939-45. He was certainly no nazi, just a conscripted farmer but the 88mm gun he operated, like that submarine, existed only to serve the nazi cause. That makes them nazi weapons and it is completely accurate and proper to refer to them as such.
This is where I disagree with many here, and the article. It is not a Nazi sub. It is a German sub. The submarine was from Germany and flew the German flag, which happened to be Nazi (because the Nazi party took control of the government). The submarine was not Nazi. Nazi is not a name of a nation or state, it is a slur term used to describe a national socialist, a person who believes in a political ideology called national socialism.
Our carriers in the pacific are not "Democracy carriers", they are US carriers becaus they belong to the US. They may be controlled by a democracy government, but they are not democracy carriers.
That is a German sub, not a Nazi sub. Germany still existed under Nazi control. One is a political ideology, the other a country.
Madox58
11-23-13, 07:59 PM
The Victor writes history, Mate.
It will remain a Nazi Sub because that sells in the news.
You and I and others here may not like it but then again We don't like Obama Care.
Oh! Wait that's not the official name is it?
:haha:
It's what sells!!
National socialism isn't just a party it is also a type of government. But either way, that sub belonged to Germany, and was for a time controlled by Nazis.
Madox58
11-23-13, 08:04 PM
Yes. And I shot Cubans but I don't think of them as Communist.
I think of them as the ones shooting at me.
I was just a better shot.
The Victor writes history, Mate.
It will remain a Nazi Sub because that sells in the news.
You and I and others here may not like it but then again We don't like Obama Care.
Oh! Wait that's not the official name is it?
:haha:
It's what sells!!
I don't find it funny....
Were talking about the legacy and remembrance here of sailors who drowned, in a steel tube at the bottom of the ocean, for something they believed in; which they thought was greater than themselves. Those guys drowned in a German sub, not a Nazi sub. And I'll stand to that for them, even if no one else will.
:Kaleun_Salute:
Have some respect.
Tribesman
11-23-13, 08:12 PM
Lets get more accurate.
It is the wreck of a Nazi submarine, built by slave labour in Bremen by the Nazi government and the Nazi military to fight in the Nazi ideological war of racial supremacy to create living room in the east by removing the subhumans to make way for the Aryan master race.
It happens to contain the remains of some dead german seamen.
In the last days of the war leading members of the military became the leaders of the government and asked for peace.
Don't talk such utter crap, look at that government.
Doenitz ...Nazi party badge in gold
Speer... Mr. slave labour, Nazi party badge in gold
Backe.... SS, starving the Ukraine "Many tens of millions of people in this country will become superfluous and will die", Nazi party badge in gold.
Seldte...SA obergruppenfurher, Nazi party badge in gold.
Dorpmuller...please send more trains to Belsen.
Jodl..... commando order, commissar order, shipping Danish jews to the camps, Nazi party badge in gold.
Keitel.... one of only two people to be honorary Nazi party members.
Von Griem....right back to the beerhall putsch days, Nazi party badge in gold
Stuckart...SS Obergruppenfuhrer, the bloody Wannsee conference of all things, plus the wonderful Nuremburg laws:doh:, Nazi party since 1922.
Then
Von Krosig...not actually a Nazi or a member of the military:hmmm:
Can you spot any of those leading military people who became the government who were not already in the government?
Madox58
11-23-13, 08:22 PM
I Love it when a crazy post goes real crazy!!
:har:
Lets get more accurate.
It is the wreck of a Nazi submarine, built by slave labour in Bremen by the Nazi government and the Nazi military to fight in the Nazi ideological war of racial supremacy to create living room in the east by removing the subhumans to make way for the Aryan master race.
It happens to contain the remains of some dead german seamen.
Don't talk such utter crap, look at that government.
Doenitz ...Nazi party badge in gold
Speer... Mr. slave labour, Nazi party badge in gold
Backe.... SS, starving the Ukraine "Many tens of millions of people in this country will become superfluous and will die", Nazi party badge in gold.
Seldte...SA obergruppenfurher, Nazi party badge in gold.
Dorpmuller...please send more trains to Belsen.
Jodl..... commando order, commissar order, shipping Danish jews to the camps, Nazi party badge in gold.
Keitel.... one of only two people to be honorary Nazi party members.
Von Griem....right back to the beerhall putsch days, Nazi party badge in gold
Stuckart...SS Obergruppenfuhrer, the bloody Wannsee conference of all things, plus the wonderful Nuremburg laws:doh:, Nazi party since 1922.
Then
Von Krosig...not actually a Nazi or a member of the military:hmmm:
Can you spot any of those leading military people who became the government who were not already in the government?
Aggressive anyone?
Since when did these political offices exist:
"Nazi party badge in gold"
"Mr. slave labour, Nazi party badge in gold"
"SS, starving the Ukraine "Many tens of millions of people in this country will become superfluous and will die", Nazi party badge in gold."
I'm no expert on the Third Reich, but I'm sure the person who was controlling the concentration camps wouldn't make his title "Mr. Slave labor".
I wasn't aware that Germany had a political position called "Nazi party badge in gold". As you claim for it to be so, what was the "Nazi party badge in gold's duties and where was his office? Is this an elected position and how long are the terms?
I'm also having a hard time finding "Mr. Slave labor" position in the German Nazi cabinet.
You do realize that being a Nazi doesn't mean your a politician, right?
Come back when your ready to talk like an adult. Until then, keep watching your favorite channel, the "Hilter and the Aliens built The Pyramids" History Channel. :nope:
Madox58
11-23-13, 08:28 PM
Now the real 'Crazy' starts.
Tribesman is one of the best at argueing points, Mate.
:D
You done caught his attention.
:haha:
I Love it when a crazy post goes real crazy!!
:har:
No respect for no one.
What's happening to the younger generations these days? :nope:
Now the real 'Crazy' starts.
Tribesman is one of the best at argueing points, Mate.
:D
You done caught his attention.
:haha:
Again, why do you think dead German sailors is so funny? :nope:
Madox58
11-23-13, 08:30 PM
No respect for no one.
What's happening to the younger generations these days? :nope:
Sorry but how young do you think I am?
:)
Sorry but how young do you think I am?
:)
Judging from the way you post, well..... :hmmm:
Madox58
11-23-13, 08:36 PM
I'll be 56 in January. I'll save you the problem of guessing.
I jumped out of AirCraft into Combat zones for the U.S. of A. more then once.
Am I a Richard? Hell I admitted that a LONG time ago.
So now what insult do you want to try on me?
:haha:
Remember it won't save you from the orginal postings going on by trying a diversion.
Gargamel
11-23-13, 08:36 PM
I've never experienced anti German sentiments here. The site owner himself has travelled several times to Germany to meet with Subsim members so I don't believe he has any anti German feelings either.
I think, given the main games this forums represent, that we hold the German Kreigsmarine in some form of respect.
This is where I disagree with many here, and the article. It is not a Nazi sub. It is a German sub. The submarine was from Germany and flew the German flag, which happened to be Nazi (because the Nazi party took control of the government). The submarine was not Nazi. Nazi is not a name of a nation or state, it is a slur term used to describe a national socialist, a person who believes in a political ideology called national socialism.
Our carriers in the pacific are not "Democracy carriers", they are US carriers becaus they belong to the US. They may be controlled by a democracy government, but they are not democracy carriers.
That is a German sub, not a Nazi sub. Germany still existed under Nazi control. One is a political ideology, the other a country.
And what political ideology was the submarine created to fight for? The German or the nazi? You can't ignore the very reason for it's existence just because you're afraid of hurting someones feelings.
As for those carriers, I suppose you don't realize it but they were part of our Arsenal of Democracy so yeah they actually are "Democracy carriers"
I'll be 56 in January. I'll save you the problem of guessing.
I jumped out of AirCraft into Combat zones for the U.S. of A. more then once.
Am I a Richard? Hell I admitted that a LONG time ago.
So now what insult do you want to try on me?
:haha:
I'm not here to play insult games...
If anyone else wants to chit chat about the topic I'll be glad to join in.
And what political ideology was the submarine created to fight for? The German or the nazi? You can't ignore the very reason for it's existence just because you're afraid of hurting someones feelings.
As for those carriers, I suppose you don't realize it but they were part of our Arsenal of Democracy so yeah they actually are "Democracy carriers"
They were built for a political ideology, most of them. But they were not owned by that political ideology. They were owned by Germany. That makes them German subs.
I have never heard the term "Democracy Carriers", nor do I think if it was used as freely as "Nazi" would it be that much of an insult, other than the irony it carries in the name. Plus many democratic countries could have democracy carriers.
I suppose the issue boils down to the term "nazi" itself and what its transformed to mean in the present day. Since post-war the term has only meant for bad things, and everything represented by it is seen in a bad light. So to compare its usage to a term like "democracy", like I did with the carriers, still isnt even equal because Nazi has such a negative representation belonging to the word.
That is why we should be careful when using the word "Nazi", especially when talking about a steel coffin for fallen veterans. If the term nazi didn't have such a negative annotation, then this conversation wouldn't even exist.
Madox58
11-23-13, 08:49 PM
I'm not here to play insult games...
You started the de-railment Mate.
Don't ask questions you can't accept answers to.
Do I find this whole thread going South?
Oh Hell yes I do!
It's going to become a big political debate over a single word in a News Media event.
"Nazi"
Those guys on that Sub died a horrible death during war.
And you have a problem over the word "Nazi" being used.
Pretty small of you in my mind.
(But then I post like a 5 year old :har:)
u crank
11-23-13, 08:53 PM
I think, given the main games this forums represent, that we hold the German Kreigsmarine in some form of respect.
That is a true statement.:salute:
You started the de-railment Mate.
Don't ask questions you can't accept answers to.
Do I find this whole thread going South?
Oh Hell yes I do!
It's going to become a big political debate over a single word in a News Media event.
"Nazi"
Those guys on that Sub died a horrible death during war.
And you have a problem over the word "Nazi" being used.
Pretty small of you in my mind.
(But then I post like a 5 year old :har:)
Please stop.
Madox58
11-23-13, 09:01 PM
Please stop.
I will only because I can see me getting tagged as 'bully' at some point.
Seems that is a more popular cause then ridding the world of the "Nazi" word.
Seems that is a more popular cause then ridding the world of the "Nazi" word.
Good for you, friend!
They were built for a political ideology, most of them. But they were not owned by that political ideology. They were owned by Germany. That makes them German subs.
I have never heard the term "Democracy Carriers", nor do I think if it was used as freely as "Nazi" would it be that much of an insult, other than the irony it carries in the name. Plus many democratic countries could have democracy carriers.
The term is your invention, not mine. They were widely considered to be instruments of Democracy whether or not they were always referred to as such.
A German sub sunk between 1939 and 1945 was fighting a war on the side of the nazi government. That makes it a nazi sub in my book just like my grandfathers gun was a nazi gun. I like most people understand the difference between the weapons and the men who crewed them.
The term is your invention, not mine. They were widely considered to be instruments of Democracy whether or not they were always referred to as such.
A German sub sunk between 1939 and 1945 was fighting a war on the side of the nazi government. That makes it a nazi sub in my book just like my grandfathers gun was a nazi gun. I like most people understand the difference between the weapons and the men who crewed them.
Well, we recognize everything else from who it belongs to. If Mike uses a hammer that belongs to John, then Mike is using John's hammer. If someone points to the hammer and asks what it is, a person will say that it is John's hammer. It is not Mike's hammer unless John says Mike can keep the hammer. No, Mike is just using the hammer.
The Nazi's were using the sub, but the sub belonged to Germany. And the Nazis were able to use it because the Nazi's controlled Germany.
It's John's hammer and it's Germany's sub.
Well, we recognize everything else from who it belongs to. If Mike uses a hammer that belongs to John, then Mike is using John's hammer. It is not Mike's hammer unless John says Mike can keep the hammer. No, Mike is just using the hammer.
The Nazi's were using the sub, but the sub belonged to Germany. And the Nazis were able to use it because the Nazi's controlled Germany.
It's John's hammer and it's Germany's sub.
The nazis ordered the submarine built, they marked it with their symbols, they sent it on it's mission of destruction to foreign shores and it was used to kill people in the name of national socialism. You can attempt to deny this with silly hammer comparisons but others will continue to call it what it really was, a nazi sub.
The nazis ordered the submarine built, they marked it with their symbols, they sent it on it's mission of destruction to foreign shores and it was used to kill people in the name of national socialism. You can attempt to deny this with silly hammer comparisons but others will continue to call it what it really was, a nazi sub.
Military units are always defined by what country they belong to. What nationality the machine or soldier belongs to. There was never a country called "Nazi", or "Naziland". Those subs were German, and they have always been German. Nazis might have ordered "most" of them built, but some were not ordered built by Nazis. The nazis you are talking about are German. They are all German. The Nazi Government was German. It is all German. That sub was controlled by Nazis, for the most part, but it was a German sub. Nazi is not a nationality. A Nazi government is a government that is national socialist, it does not necessarily mean that it is the German national socialist government called the Third Reich.
There may be more Nazi governments in the future (hopefully not). But to say that the sub is Nazi is simply incorrect. The sub belonged to Germany, which happened to be controlled by Nazis.
Madox58
11-23-13, 09:33 PM
:o
Hammer Time!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwzN4633mpI
Military units are always defined by what country they belong to.
Says you. Apparently huffpost, myself and a whole lot of other people are fine with calling it a nazi sub.:yep:
Highbury
11-23-13, 09:40 PM
Our carriers in the pacific are not "Democracy carriers"
Do "Liberty Ships" count?
Sorry, I will leave the thread now :D
swamprat69er
11-23-13, 09:46 PM
To the dead men in U-168, rest in peace.
Madox58
11-23-13, 09:48 PM
Really it should be called an 'Ex-Nazi Sub'.
And I object to crew being found on board.
Crew supposses live beings.
Crew remains or ex-Crew would be more PC.
Liberty ship implies nastyness directed at those who didn't have them.
I object to that.
I also object to my objections!
That fits right in here.
:D
nikimcbee
11-23-13, 09:58 PM
Been busy at work. Did I miss anything?
Madox58
11-23-13, 10:00 PM
Nope.
Says you. Apparently huffpost, myself and a whole lot of other people are fine with calling it a nazi sub.:yep:
I'm baffled by how a political ideology could own a war machine that is built for a nation's military. When another government takes over, will it still be a Nazi sub?
Did the whole military become Nazi just like this submarine? What distinguishes from something that is Nazi and something that is not Nazi? Do these weapons have party member numbers too?
Nope.
Please stop trying.
I'm baffled by how a political ideology could own a war machine that is built for a nation's military.
I am sorry you're baffled. I'm not.
When another government takes over, will it still be a Nazi sub?No then it would have been a Bundeswehr sub.
Did the whole military become Nazi just like this submarine? What distinguishes from something that is Nazi and something that is not Nazi?All part of the nazi war machine. That's good enough for me.
Do these weapons have party member numbers too?
What, a stamped nazi symbol on the weapon isn't enough for you?
Cybermat47
11-23-13, 11:14 PM
Please stop trying.
I agree. What has privateer done for us, apart from working his ass off to help make arguably the best mod ever made?
Onkel Neal
11-23-13, 11:20 PM
Hey, you need to direct your angst to the Huffington Post, ok?
Subsim front page article that pissed me off
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/22/nazi-submarine-found-java-sea-wwii_n_4320031.html
Nazi Submarine Torpedoed During WWII Likely Found With Crew's Remains (PHOTOS)
But since the Nazi party was the ruling party of the time, to the exclusion of all others, it is fair to call it a Nazi submarine.
Exactly. It was a military vessel under the rule of Nazi Germany.
I've never experienced anti German sentiments here. The site owner himself has travelled several times to Germany to meet with Subsim members so I don't believe he has any anti German feelings either.
I'm of German heritage myself.
I agree. What has privateer done for us, apart from working his ass off to help make arguably the best mod ever made?
http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0903/topic-change-demotivational-poster-1236902688.jpg
Hey, you need to direct your angst to the Huffington Post, ok?
As soon as you start filtering your repostings. :hmmm:
Military units are always defined by what country they belong to. What nationality the machine or soldier belongs to.
I'm baffled by how a political ideology could own a war machine that is built for a nation's military.
I hear all the time how US forces were battling communist forces in Korea and Vietnam. The Nazi army was also facing communist forces, armed with communist planes and communist rifles and communist tanks. Not to mention how Reagan faced down and ended the communist threat. It's not limited to "Nazi", and it's a perfectly valid way of describing equipment used by Germany during the early 1940s.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 04:49 AM
Aggressive anyone?
Since when did these political offices exist:
"Nazi party badge in gold"
"Mr. slave labour, Nazi party badge in gold"
"SS, starving the Ukraine "Many tens of millions of people in this country will become superfluous and will die", Nazi party badge in gold."
I'm no expert on the Third Reich, but I'm sure the person who was controlling the concentration camps wouldn't make his title "Mr. Slave labor".
I wasn't aware that Germany had a political position called "Nazi party badge in gold". As you claim for it to be so, what was the "Nazi party badge in gold's duties and where was his office? Is this an elected position and how long are the terms?
I'm also having a hard time finding "Mr. Slave labor" position in the German Nazi cabinet.
You do realize that being a Nazi doesn't mean your a politician, right?
Come back when your ready to talk like an adult. Until then, keep watching your favorite channel, the "Hilter and the Aliens built The Pyramids" History Channel. :nope:
That wasn't aggressive, that was simple, you were talking crap.
Your pathetic attempts at insults are truly pathetic, grow a pair and sort your facts out before you start ranting.
It was pointed out very early in this topic that you were clearly mistaken in your views and conclusions, which means you are doing a faux outrage story worthy of the Daily Fail.
Instead of stopping and thinking you instead doubled down on your initial mistake and dug yourself deeper.
Come back when you are ready to think, or stay as you are, bent over with your head in the hole you dug yourself into and have people lining up at the very easy target you present.
Just to push the point home.
I'm no expert on the Third Reich
Obviously, as only a complete idiot would bring up the Flensburg government to make that point if they knew anything about it.
After all you would have to be really dense to use a cabinet full of Nazi war criminals, directly involved in all the worst aspects of the racist ideology, to try and make a point about some germans and the military not being actual raving loony Nazi pricks.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 05:11 AM
Does this topic need some moderation?
Where is Jimbuna?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-xlDfga4LE
Does this topic need some moderation?
Where is Jimbuna?
A. In bed with his wife
B. Out shopping with the wife
C. In the car with the wife having a panic attack over her driving
D. You can can fill out D.
A. In bed with his wife
B. Out shopping with the wife
C. In the car with the wife having a panic attack over her driving
D. You can can fill out D.
D. Doing the can can for his travel agent so he doesn't lose his 200 quid deposit.
Back on subject..
Lodge a complaint with Huffington Post.
Jimbuna
11-24-13, 06:24 AM
Not long out of the pit but trying to catch up on what I've missed.
That wasn't aggressive, that was simple, you were talking crap.
Your pathetic attempts at insults are truly pathetic, grow a pair and sort your facts out before you start ranting.
It was pointed out very early in this topic that you were clearly mistaken in your views and conclusions, which means you are doing a faux outrage story worthy of the Daily Fail.
Instead of stopping and thinking you instead doubled down on your initial mistake and dug yourself deeper.
Come back when you are ready to think, or stay as you are, bent over with your head in the hole you dug yourself into and have people lining up at the very easy target you present.
Just to push the point home.
Obviously, as only a complete idiot would bring up the Flensburg government to make that point if they knew anything about it.
After all you would have to be really dense to use a cabinet full of Nazi war criminals, directly involved in all the worst aspects of the racist ideology, to try and make a point about some germans and the military not being actual raving loony Nazi pricks.
After I got done sifting through all the insults, I really couldn't find anything in your post of substance. It just seems like a big rant.
You neither lacked to prove that all the military leaders who took control of the government in late April and May were politicians before, nor did you add anything noteworthy.
You venting?
Things tough at home?
Life been rough on you?
Not paying your bills on time?
What is it? Perhaps I could talk you through it.
http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-its-gonna-be-alright.png
Tribesman
11-24-13, 06:56 AM
Well wastegate, where to start with your nonsense?
After I got done sifting through all the insults, I really couldn't find anything in your post of substance. It just seems like a big rant.
English not your language then?
You neither lacked to prove that all the military leaders who took control of the government in late April and May were politicians before, nor did you add anything noteworthy.
English problems again?
Like I said , only a complete idiot would try and use the Nazi Flensburg cabinet as an example of nice clean non Nazi people without checking their former roles in the Nazi government and the positions they held in the Nazi regime, let alone the number of years or even decades that they had been loyal fully paid up Nazi party members.
So do you fit the bill?
You venting?
Things tough at home?
Life been rough on you?
Not paying your bills on time?
What is it? Perhaps I could talk you through it.
Epic fail.:rotfl2:
Really, after all your reincarnations on this forum you should be able to manage some better trolling than that.
Well wastegate, where to start with your nonsense?
English not your language then?
English problems again?
Like I said , only a complete idiot would try and use the Nazi Flensburg cabinet as an example of nice clean non Nazi people without checking their former roles in the Nazi government and the positions they held in the Nazi regime, let alone the number of years or even decades that they had been loyal fully paid up Nazi party members.
So do you fit the bill?
Epic fail.:rotfl2:
Really, after all your reincarnations on this forum you should be able to manage some better trolling than that.
Really?
This is what its come to? :nope:
Catfish
11-24-13, 07:33 AM
"Nazis", well.
What was a Nazi ? It seems as if this term is the product of Hollywood and propaganda. Was Goebbels or Hitler a "Nazi" ? Sure. Was Keitel one ? Maybe. Was Lehmann-Willenbrock one ? Certainly not. Was Lueth one ? Certainly yes.
Was the Gestapo a Nazi organisation ? I'd say it was.
What did the CIA do in countless countries, is or was that "Nazi"?
And who was not a "Nazi" by allied view, in Germany of the time ? Even some abroad or so i have heard. You had to be a Nazi if you wanted to get a job, or be promoted between 1933 and 1945. A lot of german people made fun of those Nazis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc_-LU44n1o
When my father surrendered and was questioned (among other things) by a british officer if he had been a "Nazi", he clenched his teeth and curtly said "Of course i was."
So the officer walked around the table, shook his hand and said something like "Congratulations and thanks, you are the very first i meet here."
Can hardware like a tank be Nazi? Of course not, this is still good old propaganda. Of course, in some forums the Red Baron of WW1 was a Nazi.
Also U-boat crews of WW2 were mostly not Nazis at first, this happened a bit more often towards the end of the war, when the first generations were dead, and the second generation of ideologically 'styled' teens manned those boats.
What do you do if your generation goes to war, sit at home and wish them luck? Especially if another country declared war to you ? Or if you are drawn ? (also thinking of the jolly good old english manner of pressing men into service in the last centuries).
Is the man who presses the button to launch a cruise missile at a an unseen target sure that he will kill "the evil" ? He is following orders, and the duty of thinking has been taken away from him. The "Nazis" did nothing else.
I thought that thinking and deciding for oneself would be self-evident after 1945, or the Vietnam war. But when i see how the same dumb young people still pour into the military for their career i wonder ..
Onkel Neal
11-24-13, 08:37 AM
As soon as you start filtering your repostings. :hmmm:
Why would I do that? The news team here does not make the news or the news articles, they simply collect and list exisiting news articles.
I hear all the time how US forces were battling communist forces in Korea and Vietnam. The Nazi army was also facing communist forces, armed with communist planes and communist rifles and communist tanks. Not to mention how Reagan faced down and ended the communist threat. It's not limited to "Nazi", and it's a perfectly valid way of describing equipment used by Germany during the early 1940s.
This ^ :yep:
CaptainHaplo
11-24-13, 10:31 AM
My grandfather on my mothers side was a Nazi. He had a wife and three children. He also had a gun to his head and was asked if he was a member or not. Had he chosen to answer wrongly, his family would have had to suffer through the final bit of the war without him, as a significant part of his brains would have been exiting his cranium immediately.
Many so called "Nazi's" did not believe in National Socialism or support Hitler. They still were members, by force.
We have no knowledge if those aboard were members of the party or not. It does not matter, for they died in service to a government that itself claimed the title "Nazi". That does not dishonor their sacrifice, but the context should also not be whitewashed, else we run the risk of whitewashing many actions and atrocities committed in the name of "the State".
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 11:01 AM
I'm no expert on the Third Reich, but I'm sure the person who was controlling the concentration camps wouldn't make his title "Mr. Slave labor".
Just an historical point. Albert Speer did not control the concentration camps, and insisted his whole life he didn't know about them. He also admitted this was by his own choice and that he should have known but intentionally turned a blind eye. Whether he was telling the truth about that is irrelevant; he was not accused of that during his trial. What he was accused of was transporting slave labor across national lines to work in his factories. He was indeed a leading party member.
I personally agree with you about the terminology involved, but find your anger a bit misplaced. Have you written to the newspaper in question complaining about this? Subsim is a tiny part of the World Wide Web, and what we do here has absolutely no bearing or influence on the real world. If it really bothers you so much you should be agitating for a retraction by the paper involved.
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 11:16 AM
a complete idiot
a complete idiot
Things tough at home?
Life been rough on you?
Not paying your bills on time?
What is it? Perhaps I could talk you through it.
Play nice, please.
Does this topic need some moderation?
It's being watched.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Tribesman http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2144003#post2144003)
a complete idiot
Relates only to a line of argument which is completely silly.
Why would I do that? The news team here does not make the news or the news articles, they simply collect and list exisiting news articles.
Just because you do not write the articles doesn't mean your not responsible for what is on your frontpage. Don't you have control of what is on your frontpage?
It's a redundant question. I know you have control of what is on your frontpage.
Just an historical point. Albert Speer did not control the concentration camps, and insisted his whole life he didn't know about them. He also admitted this was by his own choice and that he should have known but intentionally turned a blind eye. Whether he was telling the truth about that is irrelevant; he was not accused of that during his trial. What he was accused of was transporting slave labor across national lines to work in his factories. He was indeed a leading party member.
But there was no political position called "Mr. Slave Labor". That's a silly title for a position, and I'm not sure why the other guy said that.
Way too much nonsense going on in his postings.
I personally agree with you about the terminology involved, but find your anger a bit misplaced. Have you written to the newspaper in question complaining about this? Subsim is a tiny part of the World Wide Web, and what we do here has absolutely no bearing or influence on the real world. If it really bothers you so much you should be agitating for a retraction by the paper involved.
But I'm a member of this forum. This is where I found the article. If the Huffy wants to post Nazi this and Nazi that, then I wont lose sleep over it because I don't read the Huffy. But I do read the frontpage here. And subsim is responsible for what is on subsim's frontpage, whether boss man wants to accept it or not.
Nippelspanner
11-24-13, 02:25 PM
Way too much nonsense going on in his postings.
Look who's talking!
Many people already stated that they are very fine with the article and the title. You are the only one who is not - your problem then.
I now wonder if you joined this board just to troll around. Because this is all you do since page 2.
Just stop.
Catfish
11-24-13, 02:28 PM
That's what the usual disclaimer is for.
"The operator of this website is in no way to be held responsible for the postings or links posted on this very site" (or something along these lines).
Really, this is a site that is about submarines. If 'the Huff' posts it that way, why blaming this site for it ?
Be sure the Huffington Post is not the only one using those titles, which are - in comparison to others - harmless. :yep:
Look who's talking!
Many people already stated that they are very fine with the article and the title. You are the only one who is not - your problem then.
I now wonder if you joined this board just to troll around. Because this is all you do since page 2.
Just stop.
Mr. Nippelspanner,
I'm defending my position. That is a main component of an argument.
Please stop calling me a troll.
u crank
11-24-13, 02:38 PM
Just because you do not write the articles doesn't mean your not responsible for what is on your frontpage. Don't you have control of what is on your frontpage?
And subsim is responsible for what is on subsim's frontpage, whether boss man wants to accept it or not.
What you are suggesting is a form of censorship.
From 'What are Subsim.com's editorial policies?'
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_rules3_faq_item
We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects.
You are free to express your views and comments if you abide by forum rules. You should allow others to do the same. I believe that the vast majority of members here have a great deal of respect for the fallen in any conflict and regardless of what side they fought for.
Nippelspanner
11-24-13, 02:42 PM
Mr. Nippelspanner,
I'm defending my position. That is a main component of an argument.
Please stop calling me a troll.
You made your position very clear in the first post already and since then you are merely repeating the same thing over and over and over again. We got the message - yet you did not get the message from everyone else here.
It is futile to continue this discussion, for everything has been said by 'both sides' already, and the fact that you don't get this combined with the use of some funny arguments across the topic is giving me the idea that you are indeed just trolling.
Many tried to explain where you are simply wrong, yet you refused to see that. Can't help you then.
But silly me!
What am I doing besides feeding those who shall not be fed?
I'll never learn... :nope:
Time to bail out... again...
http://media.giphy.com/media/JGF7ctowtLGak/giphy.gif
What you are suggesting is a form of censorship.
Preventing forum members from talking about torrents, saying racial slurs, or insulting other members; is a form of censorship. Pick your poison.
Nippelspanner
11-24-13, 02:48 PM
Preventing forum members from talking about torrents, saying racial slurs, or insulting other members; is a form of censorship. Pick your poison.
Uh... yeah right.
And I always thought it is keeping in good standing with the law and common sense not to insult people as n-word or something.:timeout:
You're funny!
(Yes, yes...I bailed out I know...)
You made your position very clear in the first post already and since then you are merely repeating the same thing over and over and over again. We got the message - yet you did not get the message from everyone else here.
It is futile to continue this discussion, for everything has been said by 'both sides' already, and the fact that you don't get this combined with the use of some funny arguments across the topic is giving me the idea that you are indeed just trolling.
Many tried to explain where you are simply wrong, yet you refused to see that. Can't help you then.
But silly me!
What am I doing besides feeding those who shall not be fed?
I'll never learn... :nope:
Time to bail out... again...
http://media.giphy.com/media/JGF7ctowtLGak/giphy.gif
Again, stop calling me a troll.
Very rarely do arguments end in one side conforming to the opinions of the other. You put an atheist and a devout Christian in the same room, one will not conform to the others opinion by the second page of a thread.
I don't understand your reasoning. :nope:
u crank
11-24-13, 02:52 PM
Preventing forum members from talking about torrents, saying racial slurs, or insulting other members; is a form of censorship. Pick your poison.
No, those are forum rules, which you should have read before you joined. A quick look at General Topics will show that almost any opinion is allowed and given..as long as you abide by the rules.
Are you suggesting no rules or stricter rules?
Buddahaid
11-24-13, 02:59 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine
Since U-168 was built for and operated by the Kreigsmarine, crews were under direct command of Hitler and must have sworn allegiance to him personally as part of the Wehrmacht. That makes the the sub a Nazi sub in my book and no amount of whitewashing will change that. :yep:
No, those are forum rules, which you should have read before you joined. A quick look at General Topics will show that almost any opinion is allowed and given..as long as you abide by the rules.
Just because they are rules doesn't mean they are not a form of censorship. They can be both at the same time, and they are both. If you prevent a subject to be talked about, or a word to be mentioned, then you are censoring.
Are you suggesting no rules or stricter rules?
I'm saying that if we want to be politically correct, then lets be politically correct. Submarines don't have political affiliations. But they do have an owner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine
Since U-168 was built for and operated by the Kreigsmarine, crews were under direct command of Hitler and must have sworn allegiance to him personally as part of the Wehrmacht. That makes the the sub a Nazi sub in my book and no amount of whitewashing will change that. :yep:
They pledged to him because he was the leader of Germany, and the fact Hitler was a Nazi did not matter. The military pledges it allegiance to a dictator, irregardless of the dictator's political affiliation, because the dictator is the leader of the country. That's how dictatorships work. That's how monarchies work.
They pledged to the leader of Germany, because that is a German sub, first and foremost. The fact that the man was a Nazi is second to that fact. They would have pledged to Hitler if he was a dictator, even if he was a Communist. Because he would have still been the leader of Germany, first and foremost. It's a German sub, and the sub belongs to Germany.
Buddahaid
11-24-13, 03:11 PM
I'll fix that for you then. It was a Nazi-German sub.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany
u crank
11-24-13, 03:14 PM
Just because they are rules doesn't mean they are not a form of censorship. They can be both at the same time, and they are both. If you prevent a subject to be talked about, or a word to be mentioned, then you are censoring.
Certain subjects are not allowed because that is the wish of the site owner. Censorship of opinions is another matter and according to the sites rules you are allowed to express an opinion within those rules. It seems that you are objecting to others voicing their opinions because they don't agree with yours.
I'm saying that if we want to be politically correct, then lets be politically correct.
I am not aware of any attempt by SubSim to be politically correct. Did I miss something?
I'll fix that for you then. It was a Nazi-German sub.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany
That's more like it. Those men died in a sub that belonged to their country, that is why most of them served. It wasn't just a Nazi sub. Saying that it was a Nazi sub is spitting on these fallen veterans' legacies.
Bilge_Rat
11-24-13, 03:27 PM
I don't see the issue. U-168 was as much a Nazi instrument of destruction as the gas chambers at Auschwitz. There as been much historical revisionism to try to whitewash german servicemen, but the truth is that everyone who rose to a position of authority was a Nazi or loyal to Hitler, that includes Donitz and aces like Prien or Schepke.
U-boat commander Kultsch was court martialed and executed for making vague anti-Hitler statements. Much of the crew testified against him and no one in the U-boat force, including Donitz, lifted a finger to save him.
Since the war, you have seen countless German high ranking officer claiming they were not really Nazis, they had no idea about the Holocaust or were just following orders. That is pretty much a lie, most shared the Nazis goals and knew what was going on.
The real anti-Nazis did not serve, they were jailed like Curt Jurgens or escaped like Willi Brandt.
Highbury
11-24-13, 03:52 PM
Very rarely do arguments end in one side conforming to the opinions of the other. You put an atheist and a devout Christian in the same room, one will not conform to the others opinion by the second page of a thread.
People in the same room talking in a thread... confusing.. anyways, you are correct that changing opinions is next to impossible. Yours will not be changed and almost nobody here will find it wrong to label the ship (not the people in it) as "Nazi".
Move on.
Armistead
11-24-13, 03:57 PM
That's more like it. Those men died in a sub that belonged to their country, that is why most of them served. It wasn't just a Nazi sub. Saying that it was a Nazi sub is spitting on these fallen veterans' legacies.
It was a Nazi sub.....When you fight for a Nazi political system, you're part of it.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 04:45 PM
But there was no political position called "Mr. Slave Labor". That's a silly title for a position, and I'm not sure why the other guy said that.
It was said because your post was ludicrous.
If you had any knowledge of the working of the military and party you wouldn't have introduced the Flensburg cabinet into the topic to try and distinguish between the two.
You managed to really shoot your own argument to pieces by highlighting precicely the bunch of crazy Nazi political/military war criminals which you should have avoided like the plague if you wanted to maintain any semblance of credibility at all in your attempt.
So onto one of Sailor Steves points of interest.
Reichsminister Speer, and his denials of knowledge about the "solution" to the "jewish problem"
When he talked of his nice little sit down chats with his good friend dear old Adolph he put Hitlers words into two categories.
In 1977 which category did he put uncle adolphs words to him on the aim of destroying the jewish race throughout Europe?
Was it....
(A) mad rant which usually meant nothing
(B) calm calculated words which you knew he meant and knew he wanted done.
If the answer is (B) how can his denials be in any way true?
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 04:48 PM
If the answer is (B) how can his denials be in any way true?
I don't pretend to know, or to judge one way or the other. I only point out that the "slave labor" part was all he was accused of and put on trial for.
Herr-Berbunch
11-24-13, 05:00 PM
Again, stop calling me a troll.
Then quit acting like one. What else would you call someone who enters a forum, picks on something innocuous (to all but you) and vociferously defends their point of view against everyone else in that thread?
Very rarely do arguments end in one side conforming to the opinions of the other. You put an atheist and a devout Christian in the same room, one will not conform to the others opinion by the second page of a thread.
No, but by page eight you might have started to understand.
I don't understand your reasoning. :nope:
Nor anyone else here yours. :/\\!!
Write it off as a bad day, come back tomorrow with a fresh head, clear of anything Nazi and try again.
Madox58
11-24-13, 06:01 PM
:hmmm:
Looking at my U-Boat Badge and there seems to be a mistake with it.
It has a swastika!
:huh:
:haha:
:hmmm:
Looking at my U-Boat Badge and there seems to be a mistake with it.
It has a swastika!
:huh:
:haha:
I'm still strongly convinced by the hypothesis that the maturity of one's post projects the true age of the poster.
:hmmm:
Cybermat47
11-24-13, 06:39 PM
I'm still strongly convinced by the hypothesis that the maturity of one's post projects the true age of the poster.
:hmmm:
If that as true, then I'd be 2 years old, when in reality I'm 14.
And privateer helped make one of the best mods of all time, so I'd say that he's a fully mature human being.
Plus, I've seen pictures of him.
So your hypothesis has been proven wrong.
And privateer helped make one of the best mods of all time, so I'd say that he's a fully mature human being.
Thanks for the siggy. :salute:
Madox58
11-24-13, 06:55 PM
This whole on-going thing just invites the Smart Arse in me to prance about.
:D
It's a pretty good thread for GT standards.
Lot's of fun, fairly low on the bad side, some good exchanges.
I give it a 4.
:haha:
Madox58
11-24-13, 07:02 PM
I'm still strongly convinced by the hypothesis that the maturity of one's post projects the true age of the poster.
:hmmm:
I WISH I was as young in body as I am in mind.
:D
Tribesman
11-24-13, 07:04 PM
I don't pretend to know, or to judge one way or the other.
Just pointing it out as his own statement seems to rubbish the denials he made.
I only point out that the "slave labor" part was all he was accused of and put on trial for Not really
Count three, war crimes, guilty
Count four, crimes against humanity, guilty.
Both counts in relation to Reichsminister Speer covered much more of his work than just the slave labour. Though Four mainly focused on the slave labour
It was said because your post was ludicrous.
If you had any knowledge of the working of the military and party you wouldn't have introduced the Flensburg cabinet into the topic to try and distinguish between the two.
You managed to really shoot your own argument to pieces by highlighting precicely the bunch of crazy Nazi political/military war criminals which you should have avoided like the plague if you wanted to maintain any semblance of credibility at all in your attempt.
Again, this really isn't saying anything. It just looks like a juvenile temper tantrum.
I'll help you out. Perhaps you forgot my original statement:
"In the last days of the war leading members of the military became the leaders of the government and asked for peace."
If anything, your statements give credit to mine because you can't seem to put anything together that's even eligible. The attempts to counter my original statement are amateurish at best, creating the perception that there really isn't any credible counter-argument in the first place.
:nope:
Armistead
11-24-13, 07:14 PM
People fight for bad causes all the time. I sure many fell for the propaganda and many got trapped into a cause they had no choice but to fight for. I think most of us would agree the men that fought were brave and heroic, but they still fought for a Nazi system. I'm sure the masses doing the fighting didn't have a clue how evil the system was. However, had Germany won the war, I'm sure they would've enjoyed the spoils and victory with no complaint.
Armistead
11-24-13, 07:18 PM
Again, this really isn't saying anything. It just looks like a juvenile temper tantrum.
I'll help you out. Perhaps you forgot my original statement:
[I]"In the last days of the war leading members of the military became the leaders of the government and asked for peace."
Sure they did, they had no choice and were given terms of unconditional surrender which they accepted.
So what...
So what...
That's what I thought. :hmmm:
Either way, Tribesman has gone rouge over it.
Nippelspanner
11-24-13, 07:23 PM
I'm still strongly convinced by the hypothesis that the maturity of one's post projects the true age of the poster.
:hmmm:
Does that count for signatures as well?
http://gyazo.com/efd19bd1a22e1402fc418e6efa03a325.png
And you asked twice to not being called a troll?
For this crap you should get an extra avatar and title...
Does that count for signatures as well?
http://gyazo.com/efd19bd1a22e1402fc418e6efa03a325.png
And you asked twice to not being called a troll?
For this crap you should get an extra avatar and title...
Sounds like a reasonable signature. :hmmm:
Cybermat47 said it. Complain to Cybermat47 about it. It's not my fault I just repost the news!
:nope:
Nippelspanner
11-24-13, 07:28 PM
Sounds like a reasonable signature. :hmmm:
Cybermat47 said it. Complain to Cybermat47 about it. It's not my fault I just repost the news!
:nope:
So besides getting him wrong on purpose to suit your crusade, you even need to wear this as a sig?
I was right after all, you are a troll.
So besides getting him wrong on purpose
How do you mean by this? That is a word-for-word quote.
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 07:59 PM
Just pointing it out as his own statement seems to rubbish the denials he made.
Not really
Count three, war crimes, guilty
Count four, crimes against humanity, guilty.
Both counts in relation to Reichsminister Speer covered much more of his work than just the slave labour. Though Four mainly focused on the slave labour
"The evidence introduced against Speer under Counts Three and Four relates entirely to his participation in the slave labour programme." (emphasis mine)
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/judspeer.asp
Count Three included:
A) MURDER AND ILL-TREATMENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATIONS OF OR IN OCCUPIED TERRITORY AND ON THE HIGH SEAS
Was Speer involved in that? Almost certainly not.
B) DEPORTATION FOR SLAVE LABOR AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATIONS OF AND IN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
Definitely.
C) MURDER AND ILL-TREATMENT OF PRISONERS OF WAR, AND OF OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE COUNTRIES WITH WHOM GERMANY WAS AT WAR, AND OF PERSONS ON THE HIGH SEAS
Was Speer involved in that? Seemingly not.
D) KILLING OF HOSTAGES
Was Speer involved in that? Almost certainly not?
E) PLUNDER OF PUBLIC AND PRIVATE PROPERTY
Was Speer involved in that? I don't know.
F) THE EXACTION OF COLLECTIVE PENALTIES
Was Speer involved in that? I don't know.
G) WANTON DESTRUCTION OF CITIES, TOWNS, AND VILLAGES AND DEVASTATION NOT JUSTIFIED BY MILITARY NECESSITY
Was Speer involved in that? Seemingly not.
(H) CONSCRIPTION OF CIVILIAN LABOR
Yes.
I) FORCING CIVILIANS OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES TO SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO A HOSTILE POWER
Was Speer involved in that? Possibly.
J) GERMANIZATION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
Possibly. I'm not sure.
The point is that even under Charge Number Three Speer was only accused of crimes directly related to the slave labor. Otherwise he likely would have been executed along with the others.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 08:04 PM
Again, this really isn't saying anything. It just looks like a juvenile temper tantrum.
I'll help you out. Perhaps you forgot my original statement:
"In the last days of the war leading members of the military became the leaders of the government and asked for peace."
If anything, your statements give credit to mine because you can't seem to put anything together that's even eligible. The attempts to counter my original statement are amateurish at best, creating the perception that there really isn't any credible counter-argument in the first place.
:nope:
Your trolling is pathetic:haha:
The statement gives no credit to you as the leading Nazis in power at the end of the war were all in power as Nazis throughout the war and before.
It was from start to finish a Nazi regime, and the submarine built by the slave labour was a Nazi submarine, it is simply undeniable.
You really have no point.
Which raises the question Wastegate, under how many different names have you come back to this forum simply to troll?
That's what I thought. :hmmm:
Problems with English again?:rotfl2:
Tribesman
11-24-13, 08:08 PM
Sailor Steve.
Those you missed
A. yes
C. yes
D. yes
E. yes
F. yes
You seem to be neglecting the scope of his ministry and the sheer numbers of concentration camps it utilised.
Though E is outside of that
Sailor Steve.
Those you missed
A. yes
C. yes
D. yes
E. yes
F. yes
I want to see proof for every one. Saying "yes" doesn't make it fact.
:nope:
Tribesman
11-24-13, 08:34 PM
I want to see proof for everyone. Saying "yes" doesn't make it fact.
Since you have taken just one day in one single topic to show yourself as having absolutely no credibility, what you want is irrelevant:har:
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 08:39 PM
Sailor Steve.
Those you missed
A. yes
C. yes
D. yes
E. yes
F. yes
You seem to be neglecting the scope of his ministry and the sheer numbers of concentration camps it utilised.
Though E is outside of that
If all those were true Speer would have been executed along with the rest of them. I at least went to the trouble of looking something up. We've reached a point where you need to start actually showing things. But then you rarely do.
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 08:41 PM
Your trolling is pathetic:haha:
Since you have taken just one day in one single topic to show yourself as having absolutely no credibility, what you want is irrelevant:har:
I've asked you once to play nice. This is getting dangerously near the edge.
Which raises the question Wastegate, under how many different names have you come back to this forum simply to troll?
Do you have proof of this allegation? If so, please show it. If not, mention it again at your own peril.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 09:03 PM
If all those were true Speer would have been executed along with the rest of them. What rest of them?
How many in that particular trial got the death penalty(not counting those who died or those aquitted) ?
I at least went to the trouble of looking something up. Yep, Yale is handy
So where do you want to start?
(A)?
where exactly did these civilian slaves come from?
Though of course that doesn't count the german slaves as they would be under the persecution murder and mistreatment on grounds of religion politics or ethnicity bit.
(C)?
How many POWs were used as slaves?
(D)?
take just mittlewerke or the atlantic wall, how many reprisal murders were there for "sabotage"?
(F)?
Collective? so if for example Luxembourg as an occupied territory is forced to hand over 100,000 slaves is that not a collective penalty?
As for (E)? well that started in Czechoslovakia and speers ministry carried on doing it throughout the war.
If you want to get really into it on the depths on Nazi depravity how many of his Wehrwitschaftsfuhrers engaged in human experimentation in the concentration camps while working on Sheers ministries projects
What rest of them?
How many in that particular trial got the death penalty(not counting those who died or those aquitted) ?
So where do you want to start?
(A)?
where exactly did these civilian slaves come from?
(C)?
How many POWs were used as slaves?
(D)?
take just mittlewerke or the atlantic wall, how many reprisal murders were there for "sabotage"?
(F)?
Collective? so if for example Luxembourg as an occupied territory is forced to hand over 100,000 slaves is that not a collective penalty?
You're just asking more questions here. Supply some substance to support your previous statements.
:know:
Aktungbby
11-24-13, 09:22 PM
Enough already! it was a NAZI u-boot! One of the simple joys of argument, rhetoric and logic is to hang the OP with his own petard...so to speak. Both world wars were fought under the auspices of the intellectual philosophy of Von Clausewitz in his post-mortemly published opus ON WAR, now required reading at all US military academies. "War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by other means. Consequently, the main lines of every major strategic plan are largely political in nature, and their poitical character increases the more the plan applies to the entire campaign and to the whole state." The uboot course de guerre of both world wars was the only strategy worthy of the name for Germany in both of its world wars in terms of theory, materiel and global strategy. As such, any strategic implementation of the politics of the German state in WWII especially of the Kriegsmarine would have been indisputably NAZI to der führer, his principle miñion and successor Donitz, and every one of the all-volunteer, highly propagandized 'itchy necked' UBootwaffen, happily avoiding the consequences of the Eastern front and eating sumptuously off of suitably decorated NAZI crockery,- compared to rest of the shortchanged Third Reich. All parties understood they were vital and primary functionaries of the most productive (operation Monsun)offensives into the Pacific as an extension of Nazi and Axis might. Of the good brave Nazis on the U-boot in question, 23 survived as did the Kapitänleutnant Pich, who was a POW until 1947 and died at age 82 in 1997.:smug::salute:
Onkel Neal
11-24-13, 09:38 PM
And subsim is responsible for what is on subsim's frontpage, whether boss man wants to accept it or not.
Oh, I accept it, all right. And when news outlets refer to a U-boat as a "Nazi sub", that's how we will post it. Because that's what they have been called since the '40s. Deal with it.
Tribesman
11-24-13, 09:49 PM
You're just asking more questions here. Supply some substance to support your previous statements.
Oh dear oh dear, you are not very good at this are you:nope:
The substance is in the questions:know:
Do you perhaps understand the legal concept set in Leipzig way back in '21?
It applies to that nice german who made peace at the end of the war, for all the time that he was a raving Nazi doing exactly the same job throughout the war that he held at the end of the war.:yep:
Sailor Steve
11-24-13, 10:56 PM
Yep, Yale is handy
Especially the part that quotes the man on the spot as saying it was solely about slave labor. Nice of you to ignore that part.
(A)?
where exactly did these civilian slaves come from?
Though of course that doesn't count the german slaves as they would be under the persecution murder and mistreatment on grounds of religion politics or ethnicity bit.
Was Speer charged with murder and mistreatment. If murder, he would have been executed. No, he was charged with transporting and using slave labor.
(C)?
How many POWs were used as slaves?
I thought we weren't talking about slave labor. Was Speer charged with anything else?
(D)?
take just mittlewerke or the atlantic wall, how many reprisal murders were there for "sabotage"?
Was Speer involved with any of that? Was he charged with any of that?
(F)?
Collective? so if for example Luxembourg as an occupied territory is forced to hand over 100,000 slaves is that not a collective penalty?
Did you miss the part where I said "I don't know"? You do like to have your little game, don't you? And you accuse other people of trolling.
As for (E)? well that started in Czechoslovakia and speers ministry carried on doing it throughout the war.
Sorry, but your word for anything is no longer acceptable. Citation needed.
If you want to get really into it on the depths on Nazi depravity how many of his Wehrwitschaftsfuhrers engaged in human experimentation in the concentration camps while working on Sheers ministries projects
I don't know. Why don't you tell me? And while your at it, reread what the man said about it being only about slave labor. That was all I said. You turned it into a major production. It seems to me that what you really like is kicking people whenever possible.
Tribesman
11-25-13, 12:03 AM
Especially the part that quotes the man on the spot as saying it was solely about slave labor. Nice of you to ignore that part.
I ignored nothing, yet you seem to be.
the Nazis were rather methodical bastards, since it was entirely about slave labour could you run through all their wonderful categories of slave labour?
Come back and reply when you understand why I used an example like mittlewerk, it is very simple.
Was Speer charged with murder and mistreatment. Yes, its under the principle set in Leipzig.
If murder, he would have been executed. Would he?
Lots of very nasty Nazi war criminals received very light jail terms, or even no jail at all.
I thought we weren't talking about slave labor. Who said that?
Was Speer involved with any of that? Was he charged with any of that?
Entirely:yep:
Did you miss the part where I said "I don't know"? You do like to have your little game, don't you? And you accuse other people of trolling.
I missed nothing, and you appear to be having one of your moments again, strange definitions you use.
Sorry, but your word for anything is no longer acceptable. Citation needed.
Now you are trolling and attempting to be insulting:nope:
Please keep your emotions under control
The citation is in the link you provided, Avalon does contain a wealth of information.
So what plunder would be stolen under the "competent authority" of his particular ministry?
don't know. Why don't you tell me? And while your at it, reread what the man said about it being only about slave labor. You mean where he said "entirely"?
Which of the nastier aspects of the rather nasty slave labour program are you unsure of?
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 01:09 AM
I ignored nothing, yet you seem to be.
Yet you say exactly nothing about the statement I showed.
the Nazis were rather methodical bastards, since it was entirely about slave labour could you run through all their wonderful categories of slave labour?
No, I can't. Why don't you tell me. And while you're at it, explain what Speer was charged with for each type.
Come back and reply when you understand why I used an example like mittlewerk, it is very simple.
Again you stoop to condescension. Why don't you explain it to me?
Yes, its under the principle set in Leipzig.
That sounds very general. Was Speer specifically charged with murder? If he was convicted, why wasn't he executed?
Would he?
Lots of very nasty Nazi war criminals received very light jail terms, or even no jail at all.
I don't know. It seems to me that he would be.
Who said that?
Your emphasis has been on "other counts". I've tried to show that, even according to someone in the know Slave Labor was the only real charge.
Entirely:yep:
Can you show specifically where? I've shown that his charges were quite limited. You've said a lot and shown nothing.
I missed nothing, and you appear to be having one of your moments again, strange definitions you use.
My charge is specific. You invariably do your best to condescend to your targets. You never provide facts, but tell people they should know what you claim to, and treat them like recalcitrant children.
Now you are trolling and attempting to be insulting:nope:
I said I didn't know. You tried to test me with more questions. That is indeed a game, and you play it very well.
Please keep your emotions under control
More condescension. My emotions are fine at the moment. I've just grown tired of your games.
The citation is in the link you provided, Avalon does contain a wealth of information.
So show it. Quote it. Don't just say it's there. If you're going to use it, it's your job to show it and explain it.
So what plunder would be stolen under the "competent authority" of his particular ministry?
Again you ask a question as of teacher to pupil. I don't know, and I don't see how it relates to what Speer was charged with.
You mean where he said "entirely"?
Yes. He did indeed say "entirely".
Which of the nastier aspects of the rather nasty slave labour program are you unsure of?
Speer was not charged with murder. He was not charged with anything else. Whatever the "aspects" you're talking about may be, they don't seem to have much to do with the question of the charges against him. According to the man on the scene the charges against him were relatively minor. I'm sure you're right about how bad things were, and Speer may indeed have been more involved than I think.
I made a simple statement to the other guy, partly in your support. You seem to take that as a cue to launch a full-on debate. I fail to understand why, unless you just like to feel superior to people by running them down. No, I'm not emotional about it, but I am very tired of it. You still persist in never showing facts, just wrestling with people, and you seem to enjoy doing it. It does look very much to me like a game.
Tribesman, when you get some downtime I'm gonna need you to fax over the evidence I requested. Um, yeah...
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.switched.com/media/2008/09/office-space-boss6-1.jpg
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 02:44 AM
Tribesman, when you get some downtime I'm gonna need you to fax over the evidence I requested. Um, yeah...
You might not want to be accusing other people of trolling when you post things like this.
Tribesman
11-25-13, 03:03 AM
Yet you say exactly nothing about the statement I showed.
Your statement was dealt with, unfortunately you didn't understand what you was quoting.
As Speer was being tried entirely on the work of his ministry then you need the evidence presented not just that line you quoted, all the evidence is on that website.
Including as an on topic bonus a nice little quarterly statistic on how many slaves were worked to death in the camps supplying slaves to the shipyard where the Nazi U-boat in question was constructed.
No, I can't. Why don't you tell me. And while you're at it, explain what Speer was charged with for each type.
Why not read it?
After all if Speer personally requests in writing that Himmler sends him 100,000 Hungarian jews as slaves for the underground arms and aircraft factories that Hitler wanted built then Speer is personally guilty both in their deportation and eventual deaths.
Vernichten durch arbeit is the particular category of slave labour Speer facilitated there.
Again you stoop to condescension. Why don't you explain it to me?
Its a well known example, does it need explaination?
That sounds very general. Actually its very specific, Leipzig is responsibility of command.
Was Speer specifically charged with murder? If he was convicted, why wasn't he executed?
The charges were general, not all the crimes.
As for execution, most of judgements made little sense and had no bearing on the severity of the crimes.
I don't know. It seems to me that he would be. It seems to me that all of the doctors who murdered prisoners in medical experiments at the concentration camps would be deserving of the highest penalty the courts could impose...it didn't happen though.
Your emphasis has been on "other counts". I've tried to show that, even according to someone in the know Slave Labor was the only real charge.
Slave labour covered such a wide range of crimes against humanity and war crimes, its the whole scope of the industry which he ran.
Can you show specifically where? I've shown that his charges were quite limited. You've said a lot and shown nothing.
Sorry, but you havn't, you need to view the evidence presented at the trial to understand the extent of what he was charged with in the "entirely" of the slave labour program he ran.
My charge is specific. You invariably do your best to condescend to your targets. You never provide facts, but tell people they should know what you claim to, and treat them like recalcitrant children. Sorry but there have been plenty of facts presented, feel free to check them.
I said I didn't know. You tried to test me with more questions. That is indeed a game, and you play it very well.
Yes questions, the economic plunder policy was first implemented in Austria, then improved for the Sudetanland before being polished for Czechoslovakia, by the time of Poland it was well worked out and by Russia it was a well oiled official operation of looting and plunder worked in co-operation by the Nazi ministries covering industry, agriculture, finance and all three branches of the Nazi military.
Its all on your link.
Yes. He did indeed say "entirely". So entirely it is then.
I suppose that must also include his boasting to the Gauliters about personally sending 10,000 POWs as slave labour to the arms factories.
Speer was not charged with murder. He was not charged with anything else. Whatever the "aspects" you're talking about may be, they don't seem to have much to do with the question of the charges against him. The charges against him?:hmmm:
According to the man on the scene the charges against him were relatively minor. I wouldn't call crimes against humanity and war crimes minor.
You might not want to be accusing other people of trolling when you post things like this.
Mr. Steve,
I've looked at all of my posts and cannot find any post that indicates that I called someone a troll, or said they were trolling. It's been the other way around, in all cases. I've been called the troll.
Deal with it.
Well.... I don't have to, actually.
Please delete my account. I've seen all I've needed to see.
Because that's what they have been called since the '40s.
we both know that it isn't true.
this thread has already suffered from quite a few hilariously bad attempts to justify it - yet each and every failed.
if the substitution was true in every case, the distribution between 'German' and 'Nazi' would be like 50-50. But it's not. (at least in historical books - popular science magazines which seek for 'drama' are excluded)
If you check in the books, you won't learn about Nazi MG-42, Nazi Tiger, Nazi soldiers, Nazi uboats.
Nazi is a correct term in a specific context and it does appear either in this ideological context or might appear anywhere in a newspaper article - and this was explained by HB in post 3/4 or 5.
However, this is very unusual usage of this substitution - done for a purpose.
Same goes with 'communist' and 'soviet'.
Sure the OP overreacted to the title but then again some of the posters here went berserk teaching him false history.
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 05:44 AM
A PUBLIC APOLOGY TO TRIBESMAN
Tribesman PMed me with some information about himself - how long he has been studying the subject of the Nuremburg trials, and how there is so much information that he could tie up an entire page with links if he so chose. While I still hold some of opinions about the side-discussion we started, I feel it's only fair to acknowledge his scholarship on this, and to say I'm sorry if I was going on having read a tiny fraction of the available material.
'Sailor Steve' Bradfield
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 05:48 AM
Mr. Steve,
I've looked at all of my posts and cannot find any post that indicates that I called someone a troll, or said they were trolling. It's been the other way around, in all cases. I've been called the troll.
Fair enough. It looks like I owe you an apology too.
Tribesman
11-25-13, 06:33 AM
A PUBLIC APOLOGY TO TRIBESMAN
You know its not true if it invokes the god of CAPSLOCK.
Bilge_Rat
11-25-13, 07:09 AM
Yes, there was more than enough evidence to fry Speer, but the Allies did not have the time or the manpower to go through all the documents they had and the most damning evidence against Speer was never presented at trial. It never made sense that Sauckel was hanged for following Speer's orders while Speer who gave the orders only got 20 years. The Nuremberg trials are a fascinating subjects.
Has anyone mentioned that the Nazis were handing out Crystal Meth like candy to their servicemen? That at least partly explains some of the atrocities.
Google "Pervitin".
Tribesman
11-25-13, 07:17 AM
Yes, there was more than enough evidence to fry Speer, but the Allies did not have the time or the manpower to go through all the documents they had and the most damning evidence against Speer was never presented at trial. It never made sense that Sauckel was hanged for following Speer's orders while Speer who gave the orders only got 20 years. The Nuremberg trials are a fascinating subjects.
It is also worth noting that many of those war criminals working under Speer received jobs from the allies instead of punishment for their crimes against humanity.
Onkel Neal
11-25-13, 07:58 AM
we both know that it isn't true.
We do? :hmm2: Well, seems like I've heard that term--Nazi sub/Nazi U-boat-- from old WWII vets on many occasions, maybe they were mistaken. It could also be possible they did not refer to the Imperial Japanese Navy as "Japs"....
Dread Knot
11-25-13, 08:27 AM
I've often seen the CSS Hunley referred to as a Confederate or "Rebel" submarine. That doesn't seem to offend anyone. Not even the PC crowd which usually whines at the sight of a Confederate flag.
The sunken British pre-dreadnought HMS Camperdown is often referred to as a Victorian battleship. The sunken Mary Rose is remembered as a Tudor warship as much as an English one. I don't see many anti-royalist noses out of joint.
The sunken Russian submarine K-219 is still referred to as a Soviet submarine or a "Soviet-era" submarine. Maybe that's the answer. Call the U-168 an sunken Nazi-era sub and maybe that settles the matter. 12 years is a short era though.
Tribesman
11-25-13, 08:37 AM
12 years is a short era though.
12 years may be a short era, but it was an era that was 12 years too long.
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 08:39 AM
You know its not true if it invokes the god of CAPSLOCK.
I felt it deserved a title. That was the title.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
We do? :hmm2: Well, seems like I've heard that term--Nazi sub/Nazi U-boat-- from old WWII vets on many occasions, maybe they were mistaken. It could also be possible they did not refer to the Imperial Japanese Navy as "Japs"....
What do those WW2 vets know anyways?
I've often seen the CSS Hunley referred to as a Confederate or "Rebel" submarine. That doesn't seem to offend anyone. Not even the PC crowd which usually whines at the sight of a Confederate flag.
The sunken British pre-dreadnought HMS Camperdown is often referred to as a Victorian battleship. The sunken Mary Rose is remembered as a Tudor warship as much as an English one. I don't see many anti-royalist noses out of joint.
The sunken Russian submarine K-219 is still referred to as a Soviet submarine or a "Soviet-era" submarine. Maybe that's the answer. Call the U-168 an sunken Nazi-era sub and maybe that settles the matter. 12 years is a short era though.
Well said.
Well, seems like I've heard that term--Nazi sub/Nazi U-boat-- from old WWII vets on many occasions, maybe they were mistaken. It could also be possible they did not refer to the Imperial Japanese Navy as "Japs"....
The problem is that we aren't discussing what we've 'heard' (bcoz I already said that indeed this substitution is quite common) but what is correct and accurate in terms of historical discourse.
Besides - let's not mix two things. Japs serves as an abbreviation of Japanese. (but it carries a negative load at the same time).
Nazi carries an idealogical load - why did the German government enforce the changing of the name 'German concentration camps' into 'Nazi-German c.camps'?
If someone keeps repeating 'Nazi sub' because he thinks that Nazi can be used interchangeably with German (like it was implied in this thread) he needs a serious revision.
Yeah - I know - vets say 'Krauts' so they must be right.
What do those WW2 vets know anyways?
funny.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
not
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 08:58 AM
Actually both terms are correct. The u-boat is German, designed, built and crewed by Germans. On the other hand it was the Nazis who created the need in the first place. They created the war, and waged it. The tools were built at their behest and used to attack the enemies of the Reich. Since it was they who started the war you can either say the Nazis waged war on the world, or you can say the Germans did. While it was indeed Germans who did the fighting it was the Nazis who made it happen. It was the Germans who built the boat and manned it, but it was the Nazis who commanded that it be used to sink the ships of the enemies they created.
So yes, in the sense of who created the war, it was indeed a Nazi submarine.
Yeah - I know - vets say 'Krauts' so they must be right.
I'd say that if anyone the men who defeated that scourge on humanity can use whatever words they want.
Betonov
11-25-13, 09:22 AM
RMS Titanic was a Royal mail ship, but crewed by common men.
Onkel Neal
11-25-13, 09:34 AM
The problem is that we aren't discussing what we've 'heard' (bcoz I already said that indeed this substitution is quite common) but what is correct and accurate in terms of historical discourse.
Besides - let's not mix two things. Japs serves as an abbreviation of Japanese. (but it carries a negative load at the same time).
Nazi carries an idealogical load - why did the German government enforce the changing of the name 'German concentration camps' into 'Nazi-German c.camps'?
If someone keeps repeating 'Nazi sub' because he thinks that Nazi can be used interchangeably with German (like it was implied in this thread) he needs a serious revision.
Yeah - I know - vets say 'Krauts' so they must be right.
You missed the point: vets say Nazi subs because that's what they were called when vets were fighting them. "Nazi subs", just like Nazi soldiers as in "we are fighting the Nazis" was always a common--and accurate--expression.
I'm not saying that "German submarine" is inaccurate. But "Nazi submarine" was just as accurate. It was Nazi Germany.
http://www.oocities.org/pentagon/barracks/1041/eric6.jpg
.
http://sifco100.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/1269.jpg
AVGWarhawk
11-25-13, 09:46 AM
Kranz:
Besides - let's not mix two things. Japs serves as an abbreviation of Japanese. (but it carries a negative load at the same time).
Nazi carries an idealogical load - why did the German government enforce the changing of the name 'German concentration camps' into 'Nazi-German c.camps'?
Nazi carries more than a ideological load. Much more than Jap IMO. The submarines(u-boat) is a machine of war created to perpetuate the Nazi ideological load to the world. It does not matter who was manning the boat. It was a Nazi machine of war. Nazi u-boat is correct. It can not be much simpler than that. Men dead as a result of the Nazi war machine known as the u-boats. Negative connotations will proceed the u-boats for a long long time.
Herr-Berbunch
11-25-13, 09:57 AM
RMS Titanic was a Royal mail ship, but crewed by common men.
No, it was a Royal Mail Ship - a ship contracted to carry Royal Mail post. Losing our mail for 500 years.
Betonov
11-25-13, 09:59 AM
Then it was a Royal Mail Ship crewed by neither royalty neither postmen :O:
Schroeder
11-25-13, 10:13 AM
I think we should finally put that PC crap to rest. Everybody should man up and stop whining and being offended by minor BS, we're not in a Kindergarten!
I can't believe this thread is still going.
Is Nazi sub a proper way to label the U-boat? Perhaps, I actually don't care much, they have been labelled Nazi this and Nazi that ever since WWII. Is it meant to catch attention? Yes, it is. Does it matter? Hell no!
So why don't we calm down?
Because some people want to catch attention just as badly as that headline!:/\\!!
Herr-Berbunch
11-25-13, 10:32 AM
Then it was a Royal Mail Ship crewed by neither royalty neither postmen :O:
:haha:
In the end, crewed by very little.
ETR3(SS)
11-25-13, 10:54 AM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/37642677.jpg
Aktungbby
11-25-13, 11:19 AM
Actually both terms are correct. The u-boat is German, designed, built and crewed by Germans. On the other hand it was the Nazis who created the need in the first place. They created the war, and waged it. The tools were built at their behest and used to attack the enemies of the Reich. Since it was they who started the war you can either say the Nazis waged war on the world, or you can say the Germans did. While it was indeed Germans who did the fighting it was the Nazis who made it happen. It was the Germans who built the boat and manned it, but it was the Nazis who commanded that it be used to sink the ships of the enemies they created.
So yes, in the sense of who created the war, it was indeed a Nazi submarine.
Thanks for simplifying my obtuse, overly scholarly and pedantic post:har:
Aktungbby
11-25-13, 12:20 PM
I can't believe this thread is still going.
Easy Schroeder! We're just hav'n fun and waitn' fer all the usual 'ranteurs' to check in.:k_confused: We closed/locked down the other 5 threads on this topic at 0100 this morning...so your up 80% on the situation already:har::up:
Jimbuna
11-25-13, 12:52 PM
:haha:
In the end, crewed by very little.
I heard they had a great band onboard :03:
You missed the point: vets say Nazi subs because that's what they were called when vets were fighting them. "Nazi subs", just like Nazi soldiers as in "we are fighting the Nazis" was always a common--and accurate--expression.
did I?
I wrote 'Vets say Krauts' - why are German troops not replaced with Kraut troops?
I'm not saying that "German submarine" is inaccurate. But "Nazi submarine" was just as accurate. It was Nazi Germany.
following your logic it would be Nazi German submarine rather than Nazi Submarine (like with the camps - Nazi-German concentration camps)
How about von Stauffenberg? Was he a Nazi-plotter?
Kranz:
It does not matter who was manning the boat. It was a Nazi machine of war. Nazi u-boat is correct. It can not be much simpler than that. Men dead as a result of the Nazi war machine known as the u-boats. Negative connotations will proceed the u-boats for a long long time.
I didn't say it's incorrect. I admitted it appears as headlines etc. (like those posted by Neal).
Now, find me a historical book in which at least 50% of 'German xxx (where xxx means: gear or men) is replaced by 'Nazi xxx'
Why are all those Nazi war machines not called a Nazi Walther, a Nazi Panzerfaust, a Nazi helmet ?
I'm not shocked by a 'Nazi uboat' headline because I know it serves a certain purpose of causing stir.
Historical books seek for accuracy thereby they use German instead of Nazi.
Madox58
11-25-13, 01:22 PM
I heard they had a great band onboard :03:
I heard they were washed out.
:88)
Bilge_Rat
11-25-13, 01:35 PM
Kranz, I am sure you realize most of the posts in this thread are in response to the OP. This is the one forum where you can discuss WW2 where everyone can make the distinction between a Nazi and a german just trying to survive. Most threads, even those discussing U-Boats, never even have the words Nazi posted.
But if someone is going to start a thread lecturing us that we should not use the word Nazi, especially in the GT :o, then all you will see is...
...NAZI, NAZI, NAZI, NAZI, etc. :arrgh!:
Ducimus
11-25-13, 01:36 PM
I don't know who died on that U-boat.
They may or may not have been Nazi Party.
What I do know.
It was a Nazi U-Boat.
It was sunk.
It was found.
Everyone on that U-Boat is dead for a long time now.
They were found and now a proper place as to where they rest is known.
I salute them for doing thier Duty no matter what they believed in at that moment in time.
Maybe some were Nazi. They died for what they believed in.
I can only hope I am remembered in such a way.
I honestly don't know why people get butthurt when a Uboat is called a "Nazi submarine".
Every sub theater has its fans, I understand this more then most. In the case of WW2 german subs, the facts are very clear.
- The flag flown from rear of the conning tower while in port was what?
- Said flag was a variation of the national flag of the day.
- Said U boats were part of the Kreigsmarine. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine )
- Said Uboat was NOT part of the Bundesmarine. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Navy )
To say it was a Nazi submarine, IS historically accurate, but as mentioned, it does not mean every man on board was a card carrying member of the Nazi party. And i'm sure after 12 pages, I am completely off topic, but I thought id toss in my 2 cents for the hell of it.
Schroeder
11-25-13, 01:48 PM
Why is everybody spelling Kriegsmarine wrong? :doh:
Steve where are you???:stare:
It's Krieg, not Kreig.
Krieg = war
Kreig = ? (doesn't exist)
To say it was a Nazi submarine, IS historically accurate,
then why is this 'historical accuracy' prevalent only in newspapers and popular science magazines?
Jimbuna
11-25-13, 01:55 PM
Why is everybody spelling Kriegsmarine wrong? :doh:
Steve where are you???:stare:
It's Krieg, not Kreig.
Krieg = war
Kreig = ? (doesn't exist)
Don't you go giving the Gramma 'Nazi' reason to get involved :O:
Ducimus
11-25-13, 02:00 PM
Why is everybody spelling Kriegsmarine wrong? :doh:
Steve where are you???:stare:
It's Krieg, not Kreig.
Krieg = war
Kreig = ? (doesn't exist)
I'm not German, I don't speak German, I do not read German, so obviously, I probably don't know how to spell it either. You can sue me if you like, I'll just smile instead.
then why is this 'historical accuracy' prevalent only in newspapers and popular science magazines?
Like i said, I understand every sub theater has its fans. For most who are REALLY into the atlantic theater and Uboats, glossing over the politics of the day is common, if not understandable, and often get upset when attaching the word "nazi" to "Uboat" in most any context. However, one can get upset all they want, but it doesn't change history.
Madox58
11-25-13, 02:51 PM
Don't you go giving the Gramma 'Nazi' reason to get involved :O:
LORD! Don't summon him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vf8N6GpdM
This is a very interesting thread.
I see a two way problem
1. Is a sub who was a part of the Kriegsmarine a Nazi-sub during WWII? indeed it was.
2. Was the crew Nazi's? maybe some of them, not every one though.
The crew followed order and did what they had to do and they did their best as they have learned.
My father is dead and thereby having lost contact with families on my father side. Some of his cousin made their service in the German navy during the WWII.
I would have asked them if they saw them self as a Nazi, now that they was on a Nazi, vessel.(Wonder how many of them is stil alive)
I can't predict what kind of answer I would get from them.
Markus
As I understand it O'L Adolf had the military place a swastika on all their flags, badges, medals, uniforms and underwear etc. That would definitely mark these items Nazi Party Property and therefore NAZI...
This does not mean that the people who were wearing or crewing said items were nazi.
Though I dare say some of them were.:arrgh!:
I'll get my coat.
Cheers
Gary
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 04:53 PM
Steve where are you???:stare:
I was taking a nap. Your shouting woke me up. :O:
I don't do German. That's what we have you for. :D :sunny:
Herr-Berbunch
11-25-13, 05:51 PM
I heard they had a great band onboard :03:
The bars were rubbish though, they put too much ice in the G&Ts. :sunny:
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 08:54 PM
Don't you go giving the Gramma 'Nazi' reason to get involved :O:
I'm not yer gramma! :p2:
I'm not yer gramma! :p2:
But are you or have you ever been a nazi? You vill anzwer the qvestion !
Sailor Steve
11-25-13, 10:25 PM
But are you or have you ever been a nazi? You vill anzwer the qvestion !
I can nazi that your question has any merit.
Highbury
11-25-13, 11:40 PM
I watched a documentary on Hans Langsdorff and the Admiral Graf Spee this afternoon. They showed Uraguayan newspapers from 1939 calling it a Nazi ship, couldn't help but think of this thread. :har:
I can nazi that your question has any merit.
Keep punning like that and you'll end up getting Hitler.
Cybermat47
11-26-13, 01:00 AM
Keep punning like that and you'll end up getting Hitler.
Stop being so kampf.
Stop being so kampf.
I've gott half a mein to get nazi on your ass.
Jimbuna
11-26-13, 06:09 AM
I've gott half a mein to get nazi on your ass.
Soooo....the rumours are true :o
Bilge_Rat
11-26-13, 07:00 AM
Soooo....the rumours are true :o
I naZEE what you did there. :shifty:
This is Goering to end in tiers.
Bubblehead1980
11-27-13, 12:42 AM
Would you rather it have it read "KRAUT SUBMARINE"? lol kidding guys.Seriously, I can see how it might offend Germans but lets face it, it was a Nazi submarine, as Germany was the Nazi state then, the boat was property of said state, no doubt there are nazi emblems etc on that sub, so it was a Nazi submarine.
Armistead
11-27-13, 01:15 AM
This one still going.......
Aktungbby
11-27-13, 01:23 AM
Nah it's all settled once and for all: Oswald was in the mob; the Nazi's were in control of U168 and Sailor Steve apologised twice in one thread thus kick-starting the tribulation leading to the rapture!!!; More importantly, how's the move in your miserable weather and how is your mother in law?:up:
It petered out when the OP bailed a few pages ago. Keep up old man:D And try to think of some good nazi puns. If you can.
Tribesman
11-27-13, 02:46 AM
I wannsee some more
Would you rather it have it read "KRAUT SUBMARINE"? lol kidding guys.Seriously, I can see how it might offend Germans but lets face it, it was a Nazi submarine, as Germany was the Nazi state then, the boat was property of said state, no doubt there are nazi emblems etc on that sub, so it was a Nazi submarine.
The reason for replacing 'German concentration camps' with 'Nazi-German concentration caps' was that some German felt offended that not all Germans were 'nazis' during the war so the concentration camps shouldn't be attributed to those goods ones only to the bad ones, thus Nazi-German.
If you say that 'Kraut' submarine is offensive, there is something wrong with the reasoning behind 'Nazi sub is OK' as it is a synonym of German in relation to the issue with the concentration camps.
This one still going.......
No one has really explained why 'nazi sub' doesn't appear outside newspaper context if it is to be treated as a substitution of 'German sub'.
I was even told that I shouldn't feel upset regardless if the Atlantic theater is my favorite one (dafaq?)
I wannsee some more
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4110167296/hF98AC6DB/
Don't Goebels your Thanksgiving dinner. I'm not sure the puns can go any fuhrer.
Madox58
11-27-13, 07:43 AM
I'm not sure the puns can go any fuhrer.
Hiel try to think of a few.
:hmmm:
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 08:03 AM
Hiel try to think of a few.
:hmmm:
That's not funny, anne frankly I'm offended.
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 08:07 AM
Well I reckon Hess taking the pee now.
Madox58
11-27-13, 08:19 AM
This is becoming a Bormann.
And you better answer your phone. Euringer is annoying.
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 08:23 AM
This thread is Goering nowhere!
Madox58
11-27-13, 08:27 AM
You're being Rudin pessimistic now.
Bilge_Rat
11-27-13, 08:32 AM
I donitz see how we can keep this up....:O:
Madox58
11-27-13, 08:41 AM
Well Frick! Don't get yourself in a Funk over it!
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 08:43 AM
You Myer try a bit harder.
Madox58
11-27-13, 08:54 AM
It's not Wirth the effort.
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 08:58 AM
Well, you know what they say..."If the cap Fritz"
AVGWarhawk
11-27-13, 09:22 AM
That's easy for Ulz to say.
Penguin
11-27-13, 09:58 AM
Don't want to open a Kanne of Worms again, just my 2 Pfennig here.
Late to the thread, I'm sure I say nothing which hasn't been said over the last 15 pages. I agree that a machine can't have an ideology, therefore I think in reporting "Nazi uboat" is just as awkward as "Commie AK" - "Soviet gun" is ok, as this was the name of the country. Everyday language is a whoile different pair of shoes. During my daily utterances, I usually add Nazi to everything I dislike crappy automobilist: nazi-driver, bad music: nazi-sound, etc.
However the whole proportion is way off. I am happy that the subsim staff fetches some news for us, glad they provide the work and glad they stick to legitimate sources and no fringe websites. The Huffington post is a mass media, a very mediocre one too, so it's somehow explainable they use mass language, it's not a historic journal.
Looks like the Huff Post is also capable to report in more neutral language: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/28/world-war-ii-german-u-boat_n_1713401.html :hmmm:
k, this Hess been enough.
back to the (very enjoyable:haha:) lingo wordplay - it's much harder for a native speaker to come up wirth a clever one than I thought.
A question to the English speakers: When I say "uboat", would the other person assume we talk about German WW1/2 subs or does the word usually refer to all submarines from Germany?
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 10:09 AM
A question to the English speakers: When I say "uboat", would the other person assume we talk about German WW1/2 subs or does the word usually refer to all submarines from Germany?
I would usually think you were referring to either.
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 10:19 AM
A question to the English speakers: When I say "uboat", would the other person assume we talk about German WW1/2 subs or does the word usually refer to all submarines from Germany?
The two wars, I wouldn't call your 212As U-boats, even though they belong to the 1. Unterseebootgeschwader.
I'm off to McDonald's now for my other job Stauffenberg-ers into buns.
NAZI fighters
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Fokker_D.XXI.jpg
a NAZI building
http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/coronado_swastika.jpg?w=500&h=344
a NAZI guitar player with his NAZI guitar
http://www.richardcassaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Indian-Hindu-with-swastika-guitar.jpg
NAZI Confederates
http://bradley.chattablogs.com/swastika2.JPG
a NAZI vase
http://www.richardcassaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Artemis-with-swastikas.jpg
Madox58
11-27-13, 10:41 AM
A question to the English speakers: When I say "uboat", would the other person assume we talk about German WW1/2 subs or does the word usually refer to all submarines from Germany?
Most people I know would ask "What's a U-boat?"
One Diels with the uninformed though. I don't want to Hirt thier feelings.
:)
nazi...
Too bad those weren't actual nazi's in your pictures because then maybe they wouldn't only be known for the blood and horror they inflicted upon the world.
On second thought, nope. That's all they'll ever be known for.
Bilge_Rat
11-27-13, 10:57 AM
I still Manstein that this thread is petering out.
Madox58
11-27-13, 10:59 AM
I still Manstein that this thread is petering out.
:hmmm:
Maybe we should take a Pohl?
swamprat69er
11-27-13, 11:00 AM
I've gott half a mein to get nazi on your ass.
THAT might hirt!:doh::doh:
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 11:01 AM
This thread is Stalin, I'm off to the library to take a Buchheim to read.
Too bad those weren't actual nazi's i
swastika=nazi :smug:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2145229&postcount=4
Madox58
11-27-13, 11:08 AM
This thread is Stalin, I'm off to the library to take a Buchheim to read.
Try not to Drauz off while reading it.
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 11:09 AM
swastika=nazi :smug:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2145229&postcount=4
:har:
swamprat69er
11-27-13, 11:17 AM
Would you rather it have it read "KRAUT SUBMARINE"? lol kidding guys.Seriously, I can see how it might offend Germans but lets face it, it was a Nazi submarine, as Germany was the Nazi state then, the boat was property of said state, no doubt there are nazi emblems etc on that sub, so it was a Nazi submarine.
How about 'squarehead submarine'?
Bilge_Rat
11-27-13, 11:27 AM
This thread seems to be Goering sideways, but then this is the GT.
Madox58
11-27-13, 11:30 AM
The Wise Guys keep Strölin in with off topics posts?
Someone's gonna get Thierack!
:D
Bilge_Rat
11-27-13, 11:36 AM
On a serious note, Spiegel has the right idea, referring to it as a Nazi-era sub, but good luck getting english language media to adopt that terminology.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/world-war-ii-german-submarine-found-near-indonesia-a-934967.html
It also seems the wreck may be U-183 and not U-168.
now back to puns..:O:
Schroeder
11-27-13, 11:41 AM
If people could agree on calling it a German Nazi era sub the Wurst would be over.:salute:
Madox58
11-27-13, 11:45 AM
I gotta Ley off the puns for awhile.
The wife is Wagener finger at me.
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 11:49 AM
Can I just Mussollini with some Italian? :hmm2:
Nippelspanner
11-27-13, 11:57 AM
You guys are heilarious.
How about 'squarehead submarine'?
"Goon" submarine.
Penguin
11-27-13, 12:01 PM
If people could agree on calling it a German Nazi era sub the Wurst would be over.:salute:
Kant argue Witz this! :yep:
Aktungbby
11-27-13, 12:26 PM
A question to the English speakers: When I say "uboat", would the other person assume we talk about German WW1/2 subs or does the word usually refer to all submarines from Germany? A good point. It would depend on the sophistication of the sub buff; Churchill made it a big point of WWII propaganda to refer to all German submarines as 'U-boats' somehow conferring a dark penumbra of evil while "referring to 'ours' as submarines". WWI is largely seen as a contest of empires with no particular moral corruption to either side; although the goose-steppin Hun Gerriatrics:huh: of the WWI Imperial Navy did invent unrestricted submarine warfare which we all practice without restraint happily at :subsim:...it should apply to WWII only. On a lesser but important note, I noted in the Huffington notices that an archaeologist was involved with the U168 site off Java, which should assure no desecration to a war gravesite with 27 brave Nazi ubootwafferin covered under the Geneva convention.:up:
Bilge_Rat
11-27-13, 12:50 PM
I gotta Ley off the puns for awhile.
The wife is Wagener finger at me.
my wife will have to Prien the keyboard from my cold dead hands...:ping:
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 01:03 PM
my wife will have to Prien the keyboard from my cold dead hands...:ping:
Oh stop being a sauer Kraut.
Aktungbby
11-27-13, 01:55 PM
This thread is Stalin, I'm off to the library to take a Buchheim to read.
I naZEE what you did there. :shifty:
This is Goering to end in tiers.
I wannsee some more
Hiel try to think of a few.
:hmmm:
That's not funny, anne frankly I'm offended.
Well I reckon Hess taking the pee now.
This is becoming a Bormann.
And you better answer your phone. Euringer is annoying.
This thread is Goering nowhere!
I donitz see how we can keep this up....:O:
Well Frick! Don't get yourself in a Funk over it!
Was'nt that Frack in the ice follies?
The two wars, I wouldn't call your 212As U-boats, even though they belong to the 1. Unterseebootgeschwader.
I'm off to McDonald's now for my other job Stauffenberg-ers into buns.
Thank you for your Xmas wish BerbunchBBY:up:: English only- so I can honorably not participate in this prepubescent punditry:yeah:; Mcdonald's? ...Rangel me uppe two cheezy schlyders mit jimmies on the frappe! Und don't let a fang shuss bitte u ein der arsen! :har:
Madox58
11-27-13, 02:00 PM
Stauffenberg-ers into buns.
:har:
THAT is to funny!!
:har:
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 02:57 PM
The two wars, I wouldn't call your 212As U-boats, even though they belong to the 1. Unterseebootgeschwader.
I'm off to McDonald's now for my other job Stauffenberg-ers into buns.
:har:
THAT is to funny!!
:har:
Possibly the best one yet :)
Madox58
11-27-13, 03:31 PM
We might need a catagory thing.
:hmmm:
He did the - add here thingy.
Still funny as heck though.
:D
This thread is Stalin, I'm off to the library to take a Buchheim to read.
Ubahn having a fein time? You know how to Party like it's 1939.
Herr-Berbunch
11-27-13, 04:28 PM
Thanks guys. :shucks:
I must admit I'm all burnt out after that one, no more nazi/german puns for a while whilst I recuperate (if you can recuperate, why can you not cuperate?).
Jimbuna
11-27-13, 05:16 PM
Hey, we weren't being serious :)
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