Indonesia shuts down military cooperation with Australia over phone tapping

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/abbott-receives-letter-from-indonesian-president/5108270

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/terry-mills-says-abbott-must-apologise-to-yudhoyono/5107810

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/abbott-not-apologising-as-indonesia-freezes-cooperation-with-au/5106896

SBY is demanding an explanation and has ordered all military and intelligwce cooperation with Australia to cease. Personally I think it is just a bit of pushing to see how far they can go with our new government. Abbott should not apologise ajd should just tell them to not use mobile phones for confidential conversations. If Indonesias security forces are not trying to do the same thing to Abbott and co then I'd say that they're not really doing their job

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/government-considers-further-response-to-indonesias-yudhoyono/5109370

[Herr-Berbunch]

Can't you just blame the NSA/GCHQ? :hmmm:

Oh well, that's money saved on the joint exercise.

A who's who - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/who-is-on-australian-spies-list-of-indonesian-phones/5099952

Surprised at no Castout being on the list. :03:

[Jimbuna]

I'd be surprised if any country in the world thought they were immune to spying.

[TarJak]

I agree which is why I disagree with the bleating about apologies. No other state, indonesia included, is likely to apologise or even admit that active monitoring is going on.

The over reaction is understandable as the indonesians have electrons coming up.

It gets up my nose when people here want to pander to our neighbours to stay in their good books instead of standing by what we do and telling the neighbours where to stick their protests. This is probably why I'm not a diplomat.

[Madox58]

Hello?
Headquarters?
Yes, I'd like to report Spying by the Down Under Peoples.
http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/252000/252400_1244985115932_full.jpg

CONTACT TERMINATED!!!!!

We Down Under Peoples deny this unfounded allegation!
http://montypythonwho.1hwy.com/images/colonelcracker.jpg


My mistake!
Carry on. Nothing to see here.
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/701/701461/monty-pythons-flying-circus-graham-chapmans-personal-best-20060412033759998-000.jpg

P.S.
We don't 'Spy'. We 'investigate'.

[Jimbuna]

I agree which is why I disagree with the bleating about apologies. No other state, indonesia included, is likely to apologise or even admit that active monitoring is going on.

The over reaction is understandable as the indonesians have electrons coming up.

It gets up my nose when people here want to pander to our neighbours to stay in their good books instead of standing by what we do and telling the neighbours where to stick their protests. This is probably why I'm not a diplomat.

Agreed :yep:

[Cybermat47]

I can understand the Indonesians feeling betrayed. After all, if somebody offered to dump thousands of refugees who might have terrorists among them on my shores, I would place my trust in them.

Wait, am I thinking of Malaysia?

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-26/indonesian-president-responds-to-tony-abbott27s-letter/5118518


SBY has his private letter from Abbott and responds in the media. :nope:

My read is we'll sign up for restrictions on our intelligence gathering in Indonesia, which the intelligence community will likely ignore and we'll be back to spying as normal.

Loopholes are stock and trade in these sorts of agreements.

[Jimbuna]

Tell him to go and play with the fairies.

[Catfish]

One thing to gather intelligence.
Another thing to spy aggressively.
A third thing this happening among so-called friends. :03:

[Stealhead]

One thing to gather intelligence.
Another thing to spy aggressively.
A third thing this happening among so-called friends. :03:


All three have been methods used by states since well there was more than one state.In other words for at least 8,000 years this game has been playing out nothing new to see here.

And it is not just states companies spy on each other all the time and have for years.

[Catfish]

True .. but the scope of this new spying is a completely different animal.
And you seem to thoroughly underestimate the impact on the rest of the non-anglo-saxon world, or better the view towards this kind and scope of spying.
Yes all do now know you give a sh.. about that rest, but this does not really change their view. For some this kind of behaviour is still lower than prostitution. Not to insult the latter :)

[darius359au]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-26/indonesian-president-responds-to-tony-abbott27s-letter/5118518


SBY has his private letter from Abbott and responds in the media. :nope:

My read is we'll sign up for restrictions on our intelligence gathering in Indonesia, which the intelligence community will likely ignore and we'll be back to spying as normal.

Loopholes are stock and trade in these sorts of agreements.

Soooo are the Indonesians going to agree and abide by the same "Code" or is that just for us? ,haven't anything mentioned about them holding to the same standards.

As Tarjack says ,it'll be business as usual soon ,us spying on them and them spying on us! - probably right after their elections are over.

[Stealhead]

True .. but the scope of this new spying is a completely different animal.
And you seem to thoroughly underestimate the impact on the rest of the non-anglo-saxon world, or better the view towards this kind and scope of spying.
Yes all do now know you give a sh.. about that rest, but this does not really change their view. For some this kind of behaviour is still lower than prostitution. Not to insult the latter :)


I think the second part is a slight mistranslation anyway I think I understand what you meant to say.

It seems to be that for some time the Anglo-Saxon has been in control of the world for some time most likely because espionage over the ages along with military power has allowed it to be that way.Why you think that another would not do the same is hard for me to fathom.China who long ago was a great power and was also at the time far ahead of Europe used espionage extensively Sun Tzu said that effective spying was a key element in maintaining power he never once said a thing about playing fair.Other states if they had the resources would be no different the the US or Ancient China or Nazi Germany or the USSR.

The entire idea of espionage is to of course to know what is happening behind the scenes in a place to which one is not permitted openly to know the sought information.

I never said that it was right or wrong merely that a state or similar organization spying,snooping what have you on your has always been around.

The way I see it the technology has changed true but in the past states have had very strong control over their own people Nazi Germany and the USSR are two excellent examples of sates that extensive internal and external networks and saying the wrong thing was extremely hazardous.Soviet spies in the 1930's and 40's had extensively infiltrated key US government facilities and projects.

They say that prostitution is the oldest profession if it is then spying is the second oldest.

[TarJak]

I suspect both Abbott's letter and SBY's response are as much posturing as anything.

The elections in Indonesia are probably the main reason for the fuss in the first place.

If we sign up for restrictions that are one way then we are nuts and based on the policy of not commenting on security matters says we are unlikely to do so.

I don't think that the Indonesians will have changed their position or any activity they've been undertaking in relation to intel gathering in Australia.

[Aktungbby]

They say that prostitution is the oldest profession if it is then spying is the second oldest.

Wrong SteelBBY! Mata Hari and Rahab would argue with ya on that one; The two professions are the same age and we must defer to their expertise!:yeah:. A problem in logic arises(did I say that!) If 'gentlemen do not read each others mail' and of course everyone IS reading everyone else's mail and some :subsim:ers even confess to sneaking peeks at their xmas gifts, then obviously there are no gentlemen to begin with...which makes Mata and Rahabs' jobs a whole lot simpler! Circe of the Odyssey was probably paid off by Penelope's suitors to detain Odysseus for a year said it best "men are pigs, but love their gryllic state."

[Cybermat47]

Wrong SteelBBY! Mata Hari and Rahab would argue with ya on that one; The two professions are the same age and we must defer to their expertise!:yeah:. A problem in logic arises(did I say that!) If 'gentlemen do not read each others mail' and of course everyone IS reading everyone else's mail and some :subsim:ers even confess to sneaking peeks at their xmas gifts, then obviously there are no gentlemen to begin with...which makes Mata and Rahabs' jobs a whole lot simpler! Circe of the Odyssey was probably paid off by Penelope's suitors to detain Odysseus for a year said it best "men are pigs, but love their gryllic state."

Well of course.