Another US school shooting

[TarJak]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pittsburgh-shooting-three-teenagers-shot-2789287

Brashear High School near Pittsburgh. 3 students shot.

[Cybermat47]

I hope they live... and that the Police catch the scum who did this.

[Jimbuna]

More madness :nope:

[Nippelspanner]

Is it just me, or is this kind of news from over there not shocking anymore?
It has become so...normal...:-?

[Platapus]

We have 300,000,000 people in the US. Even supposing that 99.9999 percent of the people are reasonably sane and not dangerous, that still leaves 30,000 dangerous nutters.

When ever a population gets that large, even a tiny percentage of nutters results in a disturbingly large actual number. :yep:

I am actually pleasantly surprised that we don't have more of these types of horrible crimes, given our population.

[Nippelspanner]

http://gyazo.com/47c223291bcf03374099980a212bb77e.png

I rarely hear about school shootings in China or India, and both those countries roughly have 1,000,000,000 more people...
As far as I know, there have been like ~20 school shootings in Asia in total during the last decades.
Same amount of shootings occurred in the US this year alone.

I really don't think population numbers are the problem.

[Ducimus]

Probably gang related, which is nothing new. When i was in high school (which is 21 years ago), we had SEVEN drive by shootings, all of them gang related; and I went to the better high school in my area. The other was much worse. Guns were not the only weapons, nor the most common. Usually knives, baseball bats, chains, fist bats, etc etc.

EDIT:
Now that I think about it, I remember I used to carry a 5 inch folding buck knife in my jean jacket every day during high school for self defense.

[Nippelspanner]

Probably gang related, which is nothing new. When i was in high school (which is 21 years ago), we had SEVEN drive by shootings, all of them gang related; and I went to the better high school in my area. The other was much worse. Guns were not the only weapons, nor the most common. Usually knives, baseball bats, chains, fist bats, etc etc.

EDIT:
Now that I think about it, I remember I used to carry a 5 inch folding buck knife in my jean jacket every day during high school for self defense.

I can not remember a single one of the school shootings that took place in the last decade (in the US) that have been gang related. Not a single one.

[Ducimus]

I can not remember a single one of the school shootings that took place in the last decade (in the US) that have been gang related. Not a single one.


Your probably just watching the headlines like Aurora or Sandy hook. Not all violence gets sensationalized. Of those seven driveby's at my high school that i mentioned , I was present at one of them, and none of them made any news outside the local newspaper. No LA times, no NY times, nada.

As to this incident, did I say this was gang related? Looks like i was pretty damn close. In this news story, here is our upstanding citizen:
http://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/anjohnito_willet.jpg

Updated news stories:
From Pittsburgh:
Police: Teen Arrested, Charged In Brashear H.S. Shooting (http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/11/13/sources-teen-questioned-as-primary-suspect-in-brashear-h-s-shooting/)

Police say the shooting outside of the high school was the result of Willet being robbed at school last month by the same students who he fired at.

He didn’t want to file a report on last month’s robbery, Lt. Kraus told reporters, rather “he took matters into his own hands.”

In another news source local to me that is citiing an assoicated press article:

3 Pa. students shot; suspect calls it retaliation (http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27619379&nid=157&title=3-pa-students-shot-suspect-calls-it-retaliation)
Three Pittsburgh high school students heading to their vehicle after classes ended were shot Wednesday, and another student was charged and told police he was retaliating for being beaten during a drug-related robbery last month at school, police said.


Gangs.... drugs.. two peas in the same pod if you ask me. As of right now, I do not see any reference to this story as of yet on CNN or Foxnews.

[Nippelspanner]

True, yet if you look at the persons who did the "famous" shootings you will see that they have not been gang related. If there are even more shootings, gang related or not, it's even worse.

[Tribesman]

Your probably just watching the headlines like Aurora or Sandy hook. Not all violence gets sensationalized. Of those seven driveby's at my high school that i mentioned , I was present at one of them, and none of them made any news outside the local newspaper. No LA times, no NY times, nada.

That's because shootings are so common over there, you really should do something about restricting access to firearms.:hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

That's because shootings are so common over there, you really should do something about restricting access to firearms.:hmmm:
But...guns are not the problem!
They can't be!
Cause 'Murrica!

(Since I'm getting cynical and therefor deconstructive, I just bail out of this...)

[Ducimus]

True, yet if you look at the persons who did the "famous" shootings you will see that they have not been gang related. If there are even more shootings, gang related or not, it's even worse.

Look, lets be frank. I think it's obvious your pinning this whole story as an anti-gun argument. What I am telling you, is that stuff like this is nothing new. If he didn't use a gun, he would have tried something else. Either by himself, or with his "homies". While in high school, I pissed off someone too. Next thing I knew had a pack of his homeboys looking for me, and they were all packing one weapon or another.

In other words, what I'm saying is what we're really looking at here is not gun issue, (though one was used) but an issue of inner city violence, gangs and drugs. Unfortunately this is nothing new. Hell, i practically called the issue out for what it was before the story was updated.

Let me ask you this, do high schools in germany have an on campus police office? Many of ours do. Not because of guns, but because of violence in general. In fact, students aren't even allowed to have lockers anymore where i grew up. The problem of weapons and drugs being stashed in them became too much, so they took them out.

[Skybird]

Every society reaps what it sows.

[Oberon]

But...guns are not the problem!
They can't be!
Cause 'Murrica!

(Since I'm getting cynical and therefor deconstructive, I just bail out of this...)

http://media.giphy.com/media/cUNsXlXK7HMUo/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/JGF7ctowtLGak/giphy.gif

[Tribesman]

Let me ask you this, do high schools in germany have an on campus police office?
Let me ask you this, is there a market for bulletproof schoolbags in any country apart from the US and war torn third world dumps?

[the_tyrant]

This type of attack is impossible in China. At my old high school, the school was gated, and there were security guards were outside the school doors. The school lead out to the local university, which was again, gated with guards.

Thus, external attacks like this, where the attacker was not in the school would prove to be impossible. This is why we heard of kindergarten attacks a few years ago, the outside madman can't really attack students at high schools, so they attack kindergartens without security.

As for internal attacks within the student body, a significant amount of students live in residence on dorms at the middle school to high school level in which it would be impossible for them to attack the school.

Now for the rest of the students, I've identified a few more reasons, why attacks like this are far less common. If media (video games, gangsta rap, violent movies, etc) do make you more violent, than Chinese students have little time to actually consume any of it.

Also, a large number of attacks are ideologically motivated, and again, that won't happen. All schools have political science teachers. Teenage anger and rebellion? what is that? It surely never happens in China.

[Ducimus]

http://media.giphy.com/media/cUNsXlXK7HMUo/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/JGF7ctowtLGak/giphy.gif

Nah, more like this:
http://www.markta.co.uk/alien/screens12/alien_310.JPG

[Herr-Berbunch]

Nah, more like this:
http://www.markta.co.uk/alien/screens12/alien_310.JPG

Can't see anything, or is that the point? :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

Let me ask you this, do high schools in germany have an on campus police office?
Nope, they don't.

[Oberon]

Can't see anything, or is that the point? :hmmm:

I can see it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zNngZiOlI3g/URurPtgBfSI/AAAAAAAASY4/Tvzxso3_PKA/s400/Game-Over-Man-Game-Over.jpg

[Herr-Berbunch]

I can see it.

I can see that. :up:

[Subnuts]

The real problem is that people never read the instructions before attempting to get out a malfunctioning thread.

http://i41.tinypic.com/20h7hxl.jpg

[Oberon]

The real problem is that people never read the instructions before attempting to get out a malfunctioning thread.



Or sometimes the thread itself just decides it doesn't want you in it any more:

http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/photos/A6_Landing_LT_Gallagher_1.jpg


(EDIT: Quite a remarkable story behind the above picture - http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/ )

[TarJak]

Was he rejected because he was an Intruder?

[Jimbuna]

Was he rejected because he was an Intruder?

LOL :)

[nikimcbee]

I can see that. :up:

Good, I was going to call the eye doctor.:k_confused:

http://wallpaperstock.net/eye-test_wallpapers_31094_1280x800.jpg

[Madox58]

Well. The thread title is wrong.
No school was shot.

[nikimcbee]

Well. The thread title is wrong.
No school was shot.

...or what was the school shooting? cliffhanger?
Heroin?, meth?:06:

[nikimcbee]

I'm more worried about Herr Berr's vision.:dead:

[Cybermat47]

Probably gang related, which is nothing new. When i was in high school (which is 21 years ago), we had SEVEN drive by shootings, all of them gang related; and I went to the better high school in my area. The other was much worse. Guns were not the only weapons, nor the most common. Usually knives, baseball bats, chains, fist bats, etc etc.

EDIT:
Now that I think about it, I remember I used to carry a 5 inch folding buck knife in my jean jacket every day during high school for self defense.

:o

I...

What?!

That's insane!

I hope they've cleaned up that area now!

[Oberon]

:o

I...

What?!

That's insane!

I hope they've cleaned up that area now!

Insane?

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1308/this-america-america-sparta-patriot-persia-kick-demotivational-posters-1376846837.jpg

[Ducimus]

:o

I...

What?!

That's insane!

I hope they've cleaned up that area now!

You mean where i grew up and went to high school? Oh yeah they've managed to clean it up.

I went back some years later to visit an old friend from my graduating class who went back to be a teacher. While there it was hard not to go down memory lane, but some of the things i noticed right away:

- Brick work on the buildings themselves were painted over with an enamel to make it easier to remove grafitti.

- A wrought iron perimeter fence was installed. Presumeably to keep shady characters out, I think it was to keep the students in. Damn school looks like a fortress now.

- Lastly, and most importantly, they got rid of the three "rent a cop" styled security guards that worked there while i was attending and the local PD opened a satellite office on campus. Some kid does something stupid like pick a fight, his reward is a nice set of matching "bracelets", and a chauffeured ride in the back of a cruiser to the city lockup.

I'm pretty sure the gang problems are a thing of the past there now. I haven't heard anything to indicate otherwise, but then again, I just didn't normally go by there anymore.

[Madox58]

Problem is there's so many 'Laws' to protect us that We are no longer allowed to protect ourselves.
:nope:

[Cybermat47]

You mean where i grew up and went to high school? Oh yeah they've managed to clean it up.


Well, good.


It's funny how you're the one who felt the need to defend himself at school, but I'm the one who will probably spend my life in mental health care.

[Madox58]

Well, good.


It's funny how you're the one who felt the need to defend himself at school, but I'm the one who will probably spend my life in mental health care.
Your down under so talk to Tarjak about that.
:03:
(You are on the one place on the planet that everyone Civilized sent 'those types' to.)

[Oberon]

Your down under so talk to Tarjak about that.
:03:
(You are on the one place on the planet that everyone Civilized sent 'those types' to.)

:yep:

We sent the religious nuts to the Thirteen Colonies. :O:

[Madox58]

:yep:

We sent the religious nuts to the Thirteen Colonies. :O:
Damn it! I'm trying to goad him to make a point!
Then you come in with logic and all that!
:D

[Sailor Steve]

"Our forefathers were kicked out of every decent nation in the world!"
-Bill Murray, Stripes

[Bubblehead1980]

Or sometimes the thread itself just decides it doesn't want you in it any more:

http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/photos/A6_Landing_LT_Gallagher_1.jpg


(EDIT: Quite a remarkable story behind the above picture - http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/ )


A-6 is possibly my favorite naval plane ever, perhaps after F4U and F-14.Know any of the back story to this photo? Looks like fired ejection seats, perhaps were not 0/0 seats and chute opened?

[Sailor Steve]

AKnow any of the back story to this photo? Looks like fired ejection seats, perhaps were not 0/0 seats and chute opened?
Click on the link.

[Platapus]

I rarely hear about school shootings in China or India, and both those countries roughly have 1,000,000,000 more people...

What about other violent crimes? You are right population should not have a correlation with gun usage as that is more cultural. But I do think there is a correlation between population and the number of violent crimes committed.

I could be wrong.

[August]

This type of attack is impossible in China.

I wonder if this degree of security is worth the heavy handed rule that is required to achieve it.

[TarJak]

What about other violent crimes? You are right population should not have a correlation with gun usage as that is more cultural. But I do think there is a correlation between population and the number of violent crimes committed.

I could be wrong.

Japan? Culture has more to do with it than numbers IMHO.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime

Or more telling

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/Japan/Crime
Note the assault ans firearm murder stats.

[Nippelspanner]

What about other violent crimes? You are right population should not have a correlation with gun usage as that is more cultural. But I do think there is a correlation between population and the number of violent crimes committed.

I could be wrong.
The topic was a school shooting and my note was the same, about school shootings.

[Ducimus]

Japan? Culture has more to do with it than numbers IMHO.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Japan/United-States/Crime

Or more telling

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Australia/Japan/Crime
Note the assault ans firearm murder stats.

The problem i see with those links is the simple logic. If you cram more people in a given area, your going to see more of just about everything. In other words an area with 10,000 people, is going to see more crime then an area with 1000 people. More people, equates to more problems because as you increase people your probability increases as well.

Looking up the 2010 demographics really quickly:
Japan has a total population of 128,057,352
United States has a total population of 308,745,531
In other words as of 2010, there are 180,688,179 more people living in the US then in Japan. So of course the first link is going to say, whatever is X percent more then japan.

Comparatively, grabbing the latest statistics for Japan and Australia (no 2010 stats to match):

Australia's total population is estimated at 23,248,742. (I find this hard to believe)
Japans total population is estimated at 126,659,683.
Going by these statistics, Japan has 103,410,941 more people crammed within its borders then Australia. So of course some stats on japan will be higher.

I think statistics like these are only telling if you have a smaller population with a greater incidence of whatever it is being looked at.
edit 1: or vice versa

edit 2: As for firearm murder stats, I have to wonder, is being murdered when your assaliant used a gun somehow more horrible then being murdered by any other means? Stabbing, strangulation, baseball bat to the head? I'd say regardless of weapon used, murder is murder.

[TarJak]

The problem i see with those links is the simple logic. If you cram more people in a given area, your going to see more of just about everything. In other words an area with 10,000 people, is going to see more crime then an area with 1000 people. More people, equates to more problems because as you increase people your probability increases as well.

Potentially, however only if the culture supports that activity. Hence the comparison between Australia and Japan. Japan, many more people in a much smaller area; but less Assault victims per head than Japan. Kinda supports the point that culture has more to do with crime than numbers. Which was my point in answer to Platapus' theory that numbers would drive crime. IMO these numbers alone make a reasonable case for culture over population or even population density.


Looking up the 2010 demographics really quickly:
Japan has a total population of 128,057,352
United States has a total population of 308,745,531
In other words as of 2010, there are 180,688,179 more people living in the US then in Japan. So of course the first link is going to say, whatever is X percent more then japan.
But that wasn't really the point. See above.


Comparatively, grabbing the latest statistics for Japan and Australia (no 2010 stats to match):

Australia's total population is estimated at 23,248,742. (I find this hard to believe)
They counted them last year: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/1647509ef7e25faaca2568a900154b63?OpenDocument
Japans total population is estimated at 126,659,683.

Going by these statistics, Japan has 103,410,941 more people crammed within its borders then Australia. So of course some stats on japan will be higher.
[/quote]
Again this wasn't the point I was trying to make. Yes is sheer numbers you will see more violent crimes, but in Japan vs Australia you see a definitely lower rate of violence per capita to Australia. The difference is the culture.


I think statistics like these are only telling if you have a smaller population with a greater incidence of whatever it is being looked at.

Yes that was my point. Japan has a higher population than Australia but less violent crime per capita. Japan has much higher population density that either Australia or America but again less violent crime per capita. Hence their culture must have more to do with their behaviour than sheer numbers.


edit 2: As for firearm murder stats, I have to wonder, is being murdered when your assaliant used a gun somehow more horrible then being murdered by any other means? Stabbing, strangulation, baseball bat to the head? I'd say regardless of weapon used, murder is murder.

I agree. Murder is murder, but we were talking about a shooting at a school, so talking about gun murder is more relevant that talking about strangulation for example.

[Ducimus]

I think this thread should be dumped in with the gun control depository thread, since that is really what this thread is ultimately about. If a pro gun rights advocate starts a gun control thread, it gets dumped into the depository within a few hours. To keep things fair, i think if a pro gun control advocate also starts a thread, it too, should be dumped into the depository within a few hours.

[August]

I think this thread should be dumped in with the gun control depository thread, since that is really what this thread is ultimately about. If a pro gun rights advocate starts a gun control thread, it gets dumped into the depository within a few hours. To keep things fair, i think if a pro gun control advocate also starts a thread, it too, should be dumped into the depository within a few hours.

+ 1

[TarJak]

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

[Madox58]

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?
:hmmm:
I don't know.
You live in Convict Land so I would think you want Guns to over throw us that live in Free Land.
:haha:

It's hard to get your point of view cause I can't stand on my head long enuff!
:o
:03:

[August]

:hmmm:
I don't know.
You live in Convict Land so I would think you want Guns to over throw us that live in Free Land.
:haha:

It's hard to get your point of view cause I can't stand on my head long enuff!
:o
:03:

+ 1 :)

[Madox58]

+ 1 :)
:haha:
Ya. He'll kick my arse for that!
:up:

[TarJak]

:hmmm:
I don't know.
You live in Convict Land so I would think you want Guns to over throw us that live in Free Land.
:haha:

It's hard to get your point of view cause I can't stand on my head long enuff!
:o
:03:

:har:

http://i.imgur.com/EvdC9UW.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/6/6d/Kick_in_the_ass.gif

[Tribesman]

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

I think the post was just a reaction to the posted statistics not working out for him. Hence the wish to see this buried in the gunny gunz thread.

Though I think it is pretty safe to say you are in favour of gun control, as only a complete imbecile would be in favour of no gun control.
When pushed all but the most extreme nuts turn out to be in favour of firearm regulation of one sort or another, so the reality is that almost everyone is in fact an advocate of gun control

[TarJak]

I think the post was just a reaction to the posted statistics not working out for him. Hence the wish to see this buried in the gunny gunz thread.

Though I think it is pretty safe to say you are in favour of gun control, as only a complete imbecile would be in favour of no gun control.
When pushed all but the most extreme nuts turn out to be in favour of firearm regulation of one sort or another, so the reality is that almost everyone is in fact an advocate of gun control

I figured that, however I'm not what I would call an advocate either way. Merely and interested bystander looking for answers to questions I doubt that I'll ever fully understand.

[Ducimus]

So I'm an advocate for gun control am I?

I have little reason to think otherwise at the moment, for three reasons:

1.) You tend to jump into related threads with what appears to be zeal. Gun control advocates are quick to take ANY incident that involved a gun, and use it to bolster their view somehow.

2.) You created this thread, about an incident which is sadly not uncommon when dealing with gangs and drugs. You entitled it, "Another US school shooting". Your choice of topic, and words used implies , "OMG, the gunz, when will it end?! BANZOR teh gunz!"

3.) After continuing discussion, your insistence on focusing on guns, which in this incident, was the method used, but not the root problem.

I agree. Murder is murder, but we were talking about a shooting at a school, so talking about gun murder is more relevant that talking about strangulation for example.

[Nippelspanner]

I have little reason to think otherwise at the moment, for three reasons:

1.) You tend to jump into related threads with what appears to be zeal. Gun control advocates are quick to take ANY incident that involved a gun, and use it to bolster their view somehow.

2.) You created this thread, about an incident which is sadly not uncommon when dealing with gangs and drugs. You entitled it, "Another US school shooting". Your choice of topic, and words used implies , "OMG, the gunz, when will it end?! BANZOR teh gunz!"

3.) After continuing discussion, your insistence on focusing on guns.
Wow, way to read too much into something :huh:

[Madox58]

http://i.imgur.com/EvdC9UW.jpg



Now that I like!
:yeah:
:har:

[TarJak]

Wow, way to read too much into something :huh:

^+1

Can't say that I agree with your synopsis Ducimus.

[Wolferz]

From institutions where the main goal is prison prep?

My high school was built with small windows and a wrought iron bar fence.:hmmm: