An apology to our allies.

[Bubblehead1980]

An apology to our friends in Germany and other nations for our tyrannical government's extending it's disregard for privacy rights beyond our borders to our Allies.Seems this has been going on for quite sometime(pre obama even but he has known about it, the spying on Merkel in particular since he took office) and it has continued.There was a time long ago, when the United States stood for "good" in the world, but sadly that has long since passed.With dissidents seeking shelter in Russia of all places, abuse of our allies, just a sign the US government is out of control. For those on here in Germany etc? How is this playing our over there? Not well from what I hear.

[Armistead]

We've always spied on our allies, cuz often they turn out to be our future enemies.

[BrucePartington]

FWIW (I've been thinking about this lately) it seems the people in power no longer truly represent the true nature of the people in each nation.
Dozens of examples could be given, from just about all over the globe.
For it to change, we the people would have to find a way to do away with politicians and the like who bring shame and embarrassment upon their nations.
I know I have my share: the gross mishandling of the Maddie McCann case, British nationals being arrested in Algarve for playing lotto with beans:/\\!!, being the "middle man" in the weapons smuggling operation to both contenders simultaneously in the Iran / Iraq war in the 80's, the list goes on.

But we know better and rise above all that.
Cheers.
:Kaleun_Cheers::Kaleun_Cheers::Kaleun_Cheers:

[CaptainMattJ.]

Just because they havent gotten caught doesnt mean that they arent spying on us. Ill wager a hefty sum that all of our allies are spying on us in some form, and spying on each other. Granted its probably not that in-depth or extensive but i guarantee you its happening. The difference is that if the players were reversed and it was them spying on us that our discontent would be completely disregarded by the international community.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I just assumed it was a given that any nation would spy on another given the opportunity, and mobile phones are a very good opportunity. If you want a confidential conversation then a normal mobile is not the way to do it.

[Tribesman]

I just assumed it was a given that any nation would spy on another given the opportunity, and mobile phones are a very good opportunity. If you want a confidential conversation then a normal mobile is not the way to do it.
Considering that America pays its allies to spy on Americans in the US, how can any of them be complaining about spying?

[Bilge_Rat]

An apology to our friends in Germany and other nations...

You should personally apologise. I accept your personal apology. Now don't do it again!

:salute:

[Skybird]

States have no friends, it is naive to assume that. States have interests, and so at best are temporary partners regarding practical issues.

I expected nothing else than what is revealed in Germany these days. I am only surprised that so many people seriously claim to have been unknowing. As I said: naivety en masse over here.

The deep mistrust between Merkel and Obama was existent already before.

The French, British, Russians and Chinese spy on us, too.

All this spying is not so much about terrorism. It is about economic spionage, business spying, knowing in advance the negotiation tactic of the other when meeting him at the table next day. It is about how to penetrate best and anchor deepest own business lobbyists in the other's political every day politics. The British even were so kind to say that out clear and loud - cudos for their honesty! :D

The outlook on surveillance and sniffing out private people?

I am convinced that the pressure from collapsing currencies will mount until just two scenarios are left anymore that could materialise:

- either a return to a value-money (gold standard or else) with all the fall and breakdown that follows when the debt bubbles burst and people lose their pensions and saving during and already before that: this is the scenario of a major, slightly controlled breakdown. It has been done before in history. It'S the lesser evil, compared to sitting it out and then seeing uncontrolle collapse at the end: much worse.

- or the state's power-profiteers (officials, politicians) - trying to secure their power by establishing a dictatorship and according massive suppression, under whose umbrella an official debt-money that does not represent values, but uses debt bonds - the recognition of what we already have, de facto - gets introduced. For slightly varying motives, all seem to want this: socialists, Keynesians, EUcrats.

I see the first as the desirable and necessary, but I see the second as what actually is more likely. Both America and Europe have politicians that clearly prefer the second. Their craving to stay in power tramples all common sense.

Since this is so, you can safely assume that the spying on people, the penetration and deletion of their privacy, the control of their opinion forming, will increase and will be massively boosted. Also, since the crisis sharpens, economic spying will increase even more.

BTW, I assume that nothing of strategic importance has been communicated over Merkel's cellphone. There is a catalogue of different secrecy levels of what is allowed to communicate over private cellphones, encrypted cellphones, and what always is forbidden to communicate over cellphones.

This is not meant to appease over the NSA activities. But as I said in another thread, I find it pathetic if the weak is outraged over the stronger one acting strong, and seriously expecting him to act less strong and more weak. That expectation is a dud from beginning on. If these idiots over here would mean serious business, they would do their share to become stronger themselves to meet the other on same eye level. So, a lot of show there. Europe was stupid enough to comofrtably ignore when the US ov er decades formed the basis of its stratgeic, total superiority in the communication and electronic field. That all main servers of global internet traffic now reside inside the US, is the result. That all communication patterns, globally, depend on schemes that make them vulnerable to American surveillance and possible control/intervention, also is the logical consequences of Europes own failings.

We complain that the other is so strong. We should better ask why we allowed to stay so weak.

There is frequent complaining over here that the US sometimes implies that American laws must be followed by the rest of the world, are valid outside the US as well. But currently I hear a lot of talking that implies that America must follow German laws. Hypocrisy!

No need to apologize, Bubblehead. Or have you given the order to the NSA?

[Skybird]

I just assumed it was a given that any nation would spy on another given the opportunity, and mobile phones are a very good opportunity. If you want a confidential conversation then a normal mobile is not the way to do it.

Not just normal mobiles - a mobile NEVER is safe, no matter how encrypted: it is only a matter of time and resources the other side is mobilizing for the task. I even go further and say: no electronic means of communication is safe. If you want to be safe, then meet under four eyes, in a safe and unknown location.

Encryption better is understood as just delaying the other from learning about what you said. Whether the delay is sufficient for your intentions, or not, depends.

[Skybird]

Two German comments that illustrate what it is about. Adn what it is about, is this: Merkel understands private data to be trading goods and has just blocked the EU from greater pretection of privacy, and Germany is a weak country, unable to defend itself, its interests, even the rule of its laws inside its borders.

LINK: Deutschland ist eine hilflose Weicheirepublik geworden (http://www.focus.de/politik/gastkolumnen/kelle/spaehaffaere-um-merkel-handy-deutschland-soll-nicht-jammern-wir-brauchen-waffengleichheit-mit-den-usa_aid_1141057.html)

LINK: Merkel bremst beim Datenschutz in Europe. Amerkanische IT Firmen können ihr Glück kaum fassen. (http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/abhoeraffaere-merkel-bremst-immer-noch-beim-datenschutz-a-930321.html)

[Feuer Frei!]

We've always spied on our allies, cuz often they turn out to be our future enemies.

Turn or turnED?

Aha, so that's a good excuse to spy on present-day Germany.
Cool. Obama and the NSA will be happy to hear you say that. So will Prime Minister Cameron.
Another clown (Cameron) who justifies spying on everything and anyone, and shoots down quickly anyone that dares question spying methods and its blanket coverage (for want of a better word).

[Skybird]

Why that indignation, Feuer frei? Nobody in Germany is willing to pay for and to organize the investments needed to become able to stop them. We prefer to stay weak, and we dream of our talking and laments instead being taken as strong as others' deeds. But talking compared to doing, that is just some air flow.

You want them to stop spying on us? Then we need to learn how to make them stop - by driving them away. Not in wishful words. But in building up the needed power structures for that task. No tiny little mouse will ever talk big hungry cats into stopping to eat mice.

You even could sign new treaties and have international conferences and international "laws". Anmd the especially retarded amongst polticians maybe even really woauld take that for serious then. But spies will do their spying nevertheless. Except you learn how to stop them. In deeds.

To declare crime illegal is no way to fight crime. It does nothing.

[danasan]

States have no friends, it is naive to assume that. States have interests, and so at best are temporary partners regarding practical issues.

I expected nothing else than what is revealed in Germany these days. I am only surprised that so many people seriously claim to have been unknowing. As I said: naivety en masse over here.

The deep mistrust between Merkel and Obama was existent already before.

The French, British, Russians and Chinese spy on us, too.

All this spying is not so much about terrorism. It is about economic spionage, business spying, knowing in advance the negotiation tactic of the other when meeting him at the table next day. It is about how to penetrate best and anchor deepest own business lobbyists in the other's political every day politics. The British even were so kind to say that out clear and loud - cudos for their honesty! :D

SNIP

No need to apologize, Bubblehead. Or have you given the order to the NSA?

I totally agree on that.

Let me add, please, it is about resources as well: Oil, gas, water etc.

On another note, it seems to me as if the political part of the USA ( not the people ) is going to continue their politics of isolation from the rest of the world. And yes, resources again, seems to me the reason for that.

Look over there to China, they are growing - economically speaking - each and every year at a percentage which the rest of the world is loosing every year, generally speaking. And they are going to get all the resources like oil, gas they can get. Is that a situation the USA as a "superpower" can/will live with?

OK, we lost WWI and WWII. There is still no peace contract/declaration. We are still not a sovereign state and who knows if and when we will be. We are nothing better than a "suburb" of the USA today. But I really do wonder if it could be worse being a "suburb" of China or Russia? I'm fine with that.

http://db3.stb.s-msn.com/i/5A/84A38A76D6FF8C83EAB1DDB66FF26A.jpg

"ah, the Sauerkraut recipe you emailed to your sister isn't that bad"

[Herr-Berbunch]

http://db3.stb.s-msn.com/i/5A/84A38A76D6FF8C83EAB1DDB66FF26A.jpg

'I have that naked photo of you on the beach as my phone's wallpaper.'

[Skybird]

I totally agree on that.

Let me add, please, it is about resources as well: Oil, gas, water etc.

On another note, it seems to me as if the political part of the USA ( not the people ) is going to continue their politics of isolation from the rest of the world.
I don 'T know if they isolate themselves from the rest of the world, but they certainly actively shift their focus from slowly dying Europe, which can mean only little to them these days, to the pacific - that is where the band now plays. The EU simply is not being taken serious by America, Russia, China, Brazil, India. It gets actively ignored, snubbed, bypassed.

Far more serious is that America alienates its biggest creditor. And that will backfire sooner or later. Even more since said creditor seems to probably prepare his return to a gold standard, and claiming the status of global reserve currency for itself in the forseeable future. Americans tend to appease themselves by thinking China has lots to lose when letting America fall. - And that is where they think wrong. Its not as if China has nothing to lose. It's just that it has less to lose if they let America fall. Sticking with it, just mounts the final bill. Its a bit like like with the Tiger chasing two men. You must not run faster than the Tiger. You only need to run faster than the guy beside you.

P.S. Bernie Ecclestone recently said something like this: Europe is done. It will make a nice tourism ressort, and that's it. - In a nutshell, he is right.

[Wolferz]

We're sorry, we're sorry.
We're NOT sorry.:haha:

[Jimbuna]

I doubt there are many nations naïve enough to think it doesn't go on and is practiced by most nations (those with the ability).....the only change is the media coverage the matter is currently receiving and has had in recent times.

[danasan]

SNIP

Far more serious is that America alienates its biggest creditor. And that will backfire sooner or later. Even more since said creditor seems to probably prepare his return to a gold standard, and claiming the status of global reserve currency for itself in the forseeable future. Americans tend to appease themselves by thinking China has lots to lose when letting America fall. - And that is where they think wrong. Its not as if China has nothing to lose. It's just that it has less to lose if they let America fall. Sticking with it, just mounts the final bill. Its a bit like like with the Tiger chasing two men. You must not run faster than the Tiger. You only need to run faster than the guy beside you.

P.S. Bernie Ecclestone recently said something like this: Europe is done. It will make a nice tourism ressort, and that's it. - In a nutshell, he is right.

Our former chancellor Helmut Schmidt said a couple of years ago in one of his books (http://www.amazon.de/Die-M%C3%A4chte-Zukunft-Gewinner-Verlierer/dp/3442153786/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382968533&sr=1-3&keywords=Chinesische+W%C3%A4hrung)and a lot of forums of interested managers that there will only be a couple of leading currencies left in the world within the next 20 years. He didn't mean the US $...

[Betonov]

Just give us what you dug up on our ''leaders'' so we can finally have enough to hang them all :D

[Jimbuna]

Just give us what you dug up on our ''leaders'' so we can finally have enough to hang them all :D

I sense a reply or two coming :03:

[Wolferz]

Just give us what you dug up on our ''leaders'' so we can finally have enough to hang them all :D

Hang them?

But, but, we have all these newly purchased guillotines!:arrgh!:
We'll loan ya one and you can throw rotten veggies at the guys in the que.

[Betonov]

No guillotines. I want to see them squirm :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

No guillotines. I want to see them squirm :arrgh!:

You can wire me the money and as soon as I receive it I'll send you the rope http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9875/51j.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/51j.gif/)

[Ducimus]

An apology to our friends in Germany and other nations for our tyrannical government's extending it's disregard for privacy rights beyond our borders to our Allies.

Our government isn't what I would call tyrannical..... yet. It's definitely working on it though.

We've always spied on our allies, cuz often they turn out to be our future enemies.

It's not the foreign spying that worries me. After all, a government should be looking out for the best interests of its people. What worries me is when that same government is spying on its own people.

Nothing is really new; there's just more of it!

In terms of foreign "intelligence gathering", I find myself uncaring. Any given country's government has always been snooping on other countries. However in terms of domestic, just because it may not be anything new, doesn't make it any less unacceptable when brought to light. A government of the people, and for the people, should not ever be using it's apparatus against it's people. That I believe, is the road to tyrannical rule.

[mookiemookie]

Everyone spies on everyone else. Jonathan Pollard, anyone?

[mapuc]

I agree on what one of the Danish journalist said on the danish news

USA is in one of their Major of not the biggest diplomatic crisis

or is it an exaggeration ?

Markus

[danasan]

NOT SO: Truman officially signed off in 1951...and yer' not a suburb, yer' a buffer zone and still the 'strongman of Europe'!:up: Sauerkraut...That's gute Soül 'Fude' BBY...ein Rueben Sandwich...mit ein HAMM'S! served every day in the oval office, just to keep Das Frütkake, Barb Bachman quiet... :Kaleun_Cheers:
I would prefer to be quoted in a correct and complete manner, please:

"We are nothing better than a "suburb" of the USA today. But I really do wonder if it could be worse being a "suburb" of China or Russia? I'm fine with that."

I am not fine with being a suburb of any other country at all, but, to make it clear, I am NOT LUCKY with the so called "allies".

[Mr Quatro]

Don't believe everything you read, bubblehead :know:

History proves, as do many school books in other countries also prove, facts have not always been as accurate as they have been portrayed.

When the truth of flight 007 Korean Airlines is finally told no one will probably be left around that cares.

We don't owe apologies without all of the facts being told :woot:

[Skybird]

There is diplomatic fallout for the US. However, the simple truth, as far as Germany is concerned, is this.

German counter intelligence and the Bundeswehr's much praised cyber warfare protection division that was launched some time ago with a lot of hoorays and hellos, have done a lousy job in defending against the NSA's attacks.

And German business companies additionally have a lousy reputation for their cyberattack protection measures.

Germans are romantics. We do not do things - we dream them for the better and write a poem about them. If it is stupid and anti-Israeli enough, the author even gets applause and wins a literature prize for it. That scares all our enemies away, and we are safe again. :yeah:

As far as I know, the BND is said to be very competent in one field only: and that is its number of HUMINT contacts and general information status in the ME.

[Tribesman]

Everyone spies on everyone else. Jonathan Pollard, anyone?

Benjamin Franklin?
Paid by all sides to spy on their own population and on the foriegners.
Not much has changed in the couple of centuries apart from the technology.

[Tribesman]

I Do not think I took you 'out of context' here, other than on the fact of Truman signing an 'official' end to the state-of-war in 1951
Be fair, the sovereignty was granted 4 years after that and the final peace treaty was only signed 23 years ago.
Though I think he missed that last treaty altogether:03:

It's electrifying still to see him on that favorite Fenian currency and international medium of exchange...the $ C-note :yeah: no euros fer me BBY!:rock:
Ah, but I was referring to his employment as a British government spy against the British terrorists and their French allies, before he joined those other British terrorists and the French against the British government.

[Onkel Neal]

Everyone spies on everyone else. Jonathan Pollard, anyone?

True.

[TorpX]

I find all of this very amusing.

Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize and endorsed, in effect, by europeans because he was good and pure and true (or so we were told, ad nauseum). Now, reality is slowly seeping in to the picture.

Obama (and the US Federal ruling class) trample the U.S. Constitution, spend recklessly, and generally use American institutions like drunken frat boys use an abandoned cabin. If Obama has no respect for the American people, why would anyone expect him to have any respect for foreign peoples.

[eddie]

Evidently Obama learned from that Jackass Cheney!

[Sailor Steve]

Benjamin Franklin?
Paid by all sides to spy on their own population and on the foriegners.
Not much has changed in the couple of centuries apart from the technology.

Ah, but I was referring to his employment as a British government spy against the British terrorists and their French allies, before he joined those other British terrorists and the French against the British government.
Citation needed. :sunny:

[AVGWarhawk]

"I see nothing...."

Sgt. Schultz

[Tribesman]

Citation needed. :sunny:
Why?

[Sailor Steve]

Why?
Because while it sounds like something that might have happened, I've read two good biographies on Franklin and I don't recall that. That could be my memory, or it could be because both authors left it out. I'd just like to know.

And when you claim something, you should have facts in hand. :sunny:

[CaptainMattJ.]

I find all of this very amusing.

Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize and endorsed, in effect, by europeans because he was good and pure and true (or so we were told, ad nauseum). Now, reality is slowly seeping in to the picture.

Obama (and the US Federal ruling class) trample the U.S. Constitution, spend recklessly, and generally use American institutions like drunken frat boys use an abandoned cabin. If Obama has no respect for the American people, why would anyone expect him to have any respect for foreign peoples.

"Spend recklessly". Oh, i don't know, could've had something to do with the fact that, through Clinton and Bush's deregulation, we allowed not only wall street and multiple other companies become too big to fail, but we allowed them to gamble BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars that they neither had nor owned. And because so much of the loans and wealth was concentrated in wall street, if wall street collapsed so would the economy. We had to spend astronomical amounts of money to bailout the banks BECAUSE WE ALLOWED THEM TO ENJOY FREE MARKET. This is why history is just as important a subject as math science and primary language. Because if you take a comparatively SHORT LOOK BACK IN TIME to the end of the 19th century, you'd see why Republicans are dead wrong about allowing corporations freedom of market. You'd see why allowing corporations to spend however much they wanted, become however big they wanted, and pay/charge as much they wanted, is the entire reason capitalism and deregulation are awful concepts for everyone that isn't a mulch-billionaire CEO.

Not only did we have to spend astronomical amounts of money bailing out free enterprise run amuck, but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are mind-numbingly expensive. It was republicans and the General Staff who not only started the war but fought Obama until he agreed for a crawling retreat from Afghanistan, in which we have wasted hundreds of billions of dollars trying to fix a region that was never able to be fixed in the first place. It is republicans who have proposed INCREASES for the DOD's budget, yet anyone with even minimal information about the DOD's spending knows how grotesquely inefficient its spending is. The F-35 JSF program is hundreds of billions of dollars and counting (and that's excluding the maintenance costs of the program for its lifespan), is ridiculously behind schedule, and is completely unnecessary for our military. It is only one out of thousands of examples of the grossly inefficient spending from the DOD. Billions upon billions were simply lost in the reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan, in some cases because only one person was hired to audit billions of dollars worth of spending and as a result, things such as military contractors charging 80 dollars for a component that is sold for 2 dollars, happened in vast scale. And they want to RAISE ITS BUDGET?!?!

Meanwhile Obama tries to increase spending in domestic programs that actually benefit the people and he gets endlessly harassed for it. The reason? Party politics. Both sides are so eager to slander the other that they completely lose sight of whats not only good but RIGHT for the people who pay them large salaries to serve them. Or they get bought out by the corporations, who now can spend as much as they want influencing the election, and their seemingly ridiculous and incompetent views are actually just the politicians trying to protect the companies that give them millions to protect them from necessary reform.

[AVGWarhawk]

CaptainMattJ:
Meanwhile Obama tries to increase spending in domestic programs that actually benefit the people and he gets endlessly harassed for it.

With one fundamental issue, there is no budget. What is being cut? Where is the funding coming from? More taxes......

[Ducimus]

Someone complains about party politics, and then spouts a partisan line. :haha:

[Skybird]

Just a reminder. The US debts exceed the yearly GDP. AVGwarhawk is right. There is no budget. There is just more desire to live on tic. Money lent is no wealth. Investments basing on credit only do not create wealth. To generate wealth you need to invest saved real value, not lent money and credit. Must I really give long quotes by von Mises on this miracle believing that from nothing comes everything?? Even alchemists never claimed they could do that stunt, even them needed at least some lead to turn it into gold. :-)

[CaptainMattJ.]

CaptainMattJ:


With one fundamental issue, there is no budget. What is being cut? Where is the funding coming from? More taxes......
Well for one simply fixing the many inefficiencies of the DOD and further cutting its spending to reduce our military to what it was supposed to be all along - a DEFENSIVE military - would free up a great deal of money. In addition we should effectively cut our military aid to these cesspools in the ME and go back into conditional military isolation similar to but not exactly what we had before WW2.

Once our full withdrawal of troops from afghanistan is comlete, and subsequently lowering the planned garrison were going to leave behind, also frees up billions that was being wasted on foreign rather than domestic issues.

Other than that, there are many ways to fix spending, a big one being healthcare reform. We must modify and supplement the ACA to tackle the massive issue of healthcare costs itself. The reason healthcare costs so much is because of insurance companies monopolizing the healthcare industry through the collaboration and buyout of medical suppliers, pharmaceutical companies, and essential healthcare services so they can jack up profit margins to astronomical percentages and charge outrageous premiums for plans that are deplorable. Not only that, but a healthy 22 year old pays much higher premiums because the insurance companies spread out the costs of the unhealthy over the healthy

We spend so much on healthcare for three big, main reasons. 1, because of the enterprises and corporations of healthcare. 2, Because fellow americans who are poor need assistance for healthcare, especially our elderly parents and grandparents. 3, because our country is plagued with health problems, more than most any other country in the world. This is caused by poor dietary habits and also the fact that we allow our food manufacturers to wash our meats with ammonia and spray our plants with a laundry list of pesticides and chemicals because we want free enterprise more than we want regulation to keep these greedy, selfish, detrimental corporations from screwing over the american people as they have done so very, very much over the entire history of the United States and mankind in general.

There are plenty of ways to redirect, accumulate, and better distribute the GDP of our country. But unlike what many head republicans seem to think, the answer certainly isn't deregulation and tax breaks for the top-income embezzlers and manipulators.

[Ducimus]

I find the espousing of more regulation of any sort, coming from anyone living in a state that has done just that and is bleeding money as a result; to be lacking in credibility.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Someone complains about party politics, and then spouts a partisan line. :haha:
No, i stated my opinion. The difference, which obviously goes far over your head, is that my conclusion on the issue was not regurgitated word for word by talking head democrats. I looked at the issue, studied the issue, studied both sides, and came to my own conclusion. And because i come to my own conclusions (unlike those who blindly follow talking heads like rush limbaugh, sean hannity, al sharpton, and chris matthews), there are issues in which i agree with democrats, issues in which i agree with republicans, and issues where i think both sides are either partially right or entirely wrong.

Just because you're so partisan it hurts, doesn't mean everyone that disagrees with you is too.

[CaptainMattJ.]

I find the espousing of more regulation of any sort, coming from anyone living in a state that has done just that and is bleeding money as a result; to be lacking in credibility.
:har:

Says the diehard republican living in Utah. If you're going to push that fallacy like you have many times in the past, at least don't be so obviously hypocritical.

[Madox58]

I'm not about to say I'm sorry for what the Zipheads that run this Country do.
So you got Spyed on. Big deal. Only reason anyone bitches is it's in the open. (Or is it?)
Spying has gone on since Man got Eyes.
Get over it, figure out how to prtect yourselves, and move on.
Cause no matter what you are told?
They will STILL Spy on you!

[Ducimus]

Just because you're so partisan it hurts, doesn't mean everyone that disagrees with you is too.

I'm partisan? You need to look in the mirror. Your oozing hardline democrat between the lines almost every time you post.

edit:
:har:

Says the diehard republican living in Utah. If you're going to push that fallacy like you have many times in the past, at least don't be so obviously hypocritical.

And here you just proved that you are hardcore partisan.

How's that view from california?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_J9ifBwxryUw/TOPcgG5sSoI/AAAAAAAAQ4U/uiOdNJYQ8H8/s1600/37.jpg

[Tribesman]

Because while it sounds like something that might have happened, I've read two good biographies on Franklin and I don't recall that. That could be my memory, or it could be because both authors left it out. I'd just like to know.

In that case.
The Jacobites, Frank Mclynn.
Jacobite spy wars, Hugh Douglas.

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks, I'll check them out. :sunny:

[CaptainMattJ.]

I'm partisan? You need to look in the mirror. Your oozing hardline democrat between the lines almost every time you post.

edit:


And here you just proved that you are hardcore partisan.
So your proof that i'm partisan is that i used the SAME fallacy you did to try and slander me to prove a point? Are you serious?

Notice how i never once took sides with the democrats on immigration. notice how i never took their side on affirmative action, or Arizona's SB 1070. notice how ive been saying that the ACA needs big reform and that it doesn't fix the biggest issue in healthcare which is the cost. I think that welfare should be reformed to weed out the moochers. While i questioned the importance of owning selective-fire rifles, i never condoned its banning nor do i believe other guns should be banned, if anything only regulated to close the gunshow loophole. I also pointed how i thought that the democrats in sacramento have severely damaged this state.

And i disagree with the democrats on these issues because i came to my own conclusion, free of both parties.

You, on the other hand, rarely ever point out republican incompetence and selectively only try to slander democrats, or anyone you label a democrat because they take an opposing viewpoint. I also cannot recall a single major issue you part ways with republicans on.

How can you accuse others of partisanship when you yourself are a self-proclaimed republican?

[Ducimus]

So your proof that i'm partisan is that i used the SAME fallacy you did to try and slander me to prove a point? Are you serious?

Whatevver. I've had you pegged for a hardliner democrat for a LONG time now. They way I have you figured, when it comes to living in a total democrat utopia, with no guns, no individual rights, and a total herd mentality, I think you'll be the first in line. I half expect you to tell me i need to "evolve". A line that the progressive types use all too often.


Notice how i never once took sides with the democrats on....

No. After awhile, i stopped reading carefully, and just started to skim, because I was pretty sure whatever you had to say, I wasn't going to like it. Ever notice how my replies tend to be short and direct?

And i disagree with the democrats on these issues because i came to my own conclusion, free of both parties.

You disagree with the democrats? You just stood there and basicaly spouted the democratic obamabot line of how he's trying to help the american people but can't because those evil republicans! That is a load of crock! He's a lying and manipulative bastard.


You, on the other hand, rarely ever point out republican incompetence and selectively only try to slander democrats, or anyone you label a democrat because they take an opposing viewpoint. I also cannot recall a single major issue you part ways with republicans on.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's the Democrats and the Obama administration that is pushing for bigger government, with farther reaching authority into our individual lives. It's this current government that is largely influenced by the democrats that is pissing on our enumerated rights, every chance it gets, and not all of it makes the major news outlets. If 1984 is ever going to make that transition from political rhetoric to cold hard reality, i strongly believe it's the democrats and the liberal progressive types that will get us there. So I see the republicans, though they are not guilt free, as the lesser of the two evil's in this regard.


How can you accuse others of partisanship when you yourself are a self-proclaimed republican?

I NEVER said I was a republican. Ever.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=677&pictureid=7102
Three things I strongly dislike right now is this current government, Obama and California, and I see all three as far left, with one jaunt over to the red with the patriot act. Something from the far right, i freaking hate. To say nothing of the NDAA.

[Penguin]

I'm not about to say I'm sorry for what the Zipheads that run this Country do.


:Kaleun_Applaud:

Most of us Euros are perfectly capable to differ between your government and your citizens - that's why we applaud your leaders when they visit and tar and feather any Yank we can get our hands on when we see them in the streets. :arrgh!:

[Madox58]

:hmmm:
Does that mean I should apologize for the Priests that play with little boys even though I'm not Catholic?

[Penguin]

:hmmm:
Does that mean I should apologize for the Priests that play with little boys even though I'm not Catholic?

As a Reverend I say: Do that which is right! :smug:

(The applause smiley in my former post was sincere: no need to apologize as long as you're not one of those zipperheads. :salute:)

[Madox58]

Ok. Cool! :up:
I just didn't want to visit and get tarred and feathered in public.
I try to keep that kind of stuff in the bedroom.
:D

[Tribesman]

No. After awhile, i stopped reading carefully, and just started to skim, because I was pretty sure whatever you had to say, I wasn't going to like it.
If ever there was any doubt about you having a closed mind since you "discovered" politics its certainly answered.:nope:

[Bilge_Rat]

This is rich. Apparently, it was French and Spanish intelligence services that spied on their own citizens, then shared the data with the NSA:


NSA spy row: France and Spain 'shared phone data' with US

Spain and France's intelligence agencies carried out collection of phone records and shared them with NSA, agency says

European intelligence agencies and not American spies were responsible for the mass collection of phone records which sparked outrage in France (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10394839/Anger-in-France-over-claims-that-NSA-spied-on-politicians-business-leaders-as-well-as-terrorists.html) and Spain (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10408572/NSA-tracked-60-million-phone-calls-in-Spain-in-a-month.html), the US has claimed.

General Keith Alexander, the head of the National Security Agency, said reports that the US (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/) had collected millions of Spanish and French phone records were "absolutely false".


"To be perfectly clear, this is not information that we collected on European citizens," Gen Alexander said when asked about the reports, which were based on classified documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the former NSA contractor.


Shortly before the NSA chief appeared before a Congressional committee, US officials briefed the Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304200804579165653105860502) that in fact Spain and France's own intelligence agencies had carried out the surveillance and then shared their findings with the NSA.


The anonymous officials claimed that the monitored calls were not even made within Spanish and French borders and could be surveillance carried on outside of Europe.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10413260/NSA-spy-row-France-and-Spain-shared-phone-data-with-US.html

so now I'm confused, is someone supposed to apologise on behalf of France and Spain? :-j

[Herr-Berbunch]

. . . so now I'm confused, is someone supposed to apologise on behalf of France and Spain? :-j

Oui, Si.

Translated (in a fashion) in to English pronunciation - We see. :o Oh the conspiracy!!!

[Bilge_Rat]

with very little digging, it turns out the German BND, their equivalent to the NSA, is doing the very same kind of spying/monitoring as the NSA. The NSA and the BND also share extensive info:



Why are the media ignoring the NSA’s relationship with German intelligence?

As I wrote last week, cooperation between the American NSA and the BND, Germany’s foreign intelligence agency, is extensive and intimate (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robertwargas/100242600/the-europeans-are-happy-to-help-the-united-states-spy-on-everybody-they-just-wont-admit-it/). The German magazine Der Spiegel has done some worthy reporting on this. The NSA-BND cooperation angle was prominent in the German press over the summer, after Edward Snowden’s initial revelations about PRISM had first been reported. Der Spiegel revealed in July, based on Snowden’s pilfered documents and other sources, that the connections between the NSA and the BND are much tighter than previously thought and include extensive data sharing and the monitoring of phone calls and other electronic communications. The head of the BND, Gerhard Schindler, has acknowledged the relationship. Hans-Peter Friedrich, the German Interior Minister, expressed thanks for “information provided by our American friends” to thwart terrorist attacks, even as he and others claimed not to know anything about the agencies’ cooperation. Merkel includes herself in the axis of ignorance.




http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robertwargas/100243517/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-nsas-relationship-with-german-intelligence/



The Europeans are happy to help the United States spy on everybody. They just won't admit it

The joint NSA-BND monitoring facility in Bad Aibling, which everyone is supposed to pretend doesn’t exist, is still operational. Gerhard Schindler, the BND’s chief, has essentially admitted to cooperation with the NSA before a European Parliament intelligence committee in July. The Bad Aibling site was crucial to the NSA and BND’s last joint venture on the controversial Echelon program. This too monitored mass communications and included spying by America, Britain, Canada and Australia, according to Der Spiegel. More recently, similar cooperation between European intelligence agencies and the NSA has been documented elsewhere in Europe, including Sweden.




http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robertwargas/100242600/the-europeans-are-happy-to-help-the-united-states-spy-on-everybody-they-just-wont-admit-it/





Mass Data: Transfers from Germany Aid US Surveillance

German intelligence sends massive amounts of intercepted data to the NSA, according to documents from whistleblower Edward Snowden, which SPIEGEL has seen. The trans-Atlantic cooperation on technical matters is also much closer than first thought

Day after day and month after month, the BND passes on to the NSA massive amounts of connection data relating to the communications it had placed under surveillance. The so-called metadata -- telephone numbers, email addresses, IP connections -- then flow into the Americans' giant databases.



http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-intelligence-sends-massive-amounts-of-data-to-the-nsa-a-914821.html



given the close ties between the German BND and the NSA, it is hard to believe the Germans themselves did not know the Chancellor's communications were being monitored.

sooooooo..do we now need someone to apologise on behalf of Germany? :ping:

[TarJak]

News flash. Spies spy on people including politicians! :o

[CaptainMattJ.]

Whatevver. I've had you pegged for a hardliner democrat for a LONG time now. They way I have you figured, when it comes to living in a total democrat utopia, with no guns, no individual rights, and a total herd mentality, I think you'll be the first in line. I half expect you to tell me i need to "evolve". A line that the progressive types use all too often.
Whatever. And I've had YOU pegged as hardliner republican. Yet according to you, Im completely wrong about my presumptions but you're completely right about yours, even though yours include the idea that california is a dystopian oligarchy run by communist liberals whose sole purpose is to oppress the people, and that anyone living here MUST share those same ideals, right?

You make pathetic attempts to try and somehow slander my credibility through what state i live in, but then figure that your credibility couldnt possibly be slandered in a simliar manner because...why? You're somehow above your own deplorable argument? By your own argument, simply your state of residence determines your character and the only things you can believe. So you living in Utah would, by your own argument, be just as much grounds for republican indoctrination as california would be democrat indoctrination. Yet you somehow still do not see the fallacy in your argument and you keep pushing an idea that you consider yourself exempt from because apparently you're just that special.

No. After awhile, i stopped reading carefully, and just started to skim, because I was pretty sure whatever you had to say, I wasn't going to like it. Ever notice how my replies tend to be short and direct?
"Ill just skim over everything you say because i dont agree with it and take statements out of context so i can summarize it into my own words to try and jab at your credibility with fallacies"

You disagree with the democrats? You just stood there and basicaly spouted the democratic obamabot line of how he's trying to help the american people but can't because those evil republicans! That is a load of crock! He's a lying and manipulative bastard.And you just stand there and basically spout the republican line about how Obama is the biggest evil this country has ever seen, and that they want to ban all guns and oppress and enslave you, and the ACA doesn't benefit any American and we dont need healthcare reform.

But then youre going to try and say that you dont just spout off lines and that youre just such an enlightened individual who HAPPENS to agree with republicans on the majority of issues. But when you accuse me of the same thing and i claim the same disassociation i must be delusional and brainwashed, right?

Maybe you should actually read for once instead of skimming over everything and highlighting whatever you wanted so you can take it out of context.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's the Democrats and the Obama administration that is pushing for bigger government, with farther reaching authority into our individual lives. It's this current government that is largely influenced by the democrats that is pissing on our enumerated rights, every chance it gets, and not all of it makes the major news outlets. If 1984 is ever going to make that transition from political rhetoric to cold hard reality, i strongly believe it's the democrats and the liberal progressive types that will get us there. So I see the republicans, though they are not guilt free, as the lesser of the two evil's in this regard.
And its the Republicans and the house majority who essentially want pre-depression hands-off government. Pffft, Healthcare reform, who needs THAT? Pfft a liveable retirement income, what a scam. Pffft, corporations screwing over their workers? That doesnt happen. Corporations gambling billions of dollars that wasnt theirs causing economic crisis? What a bunch of finger pointing. What the republicans envision isn't free and fair capitalism, it's "Im at the top, ive gotten mine, so screw you." You want to talk about pissing on rights, what about the right to fair market and my rights as a working consumer?

Neither side is really a lesser evil. They are both terrible extremist options who expect your cooperation with every issue or else you aren't a true team player. Which is why i dont associate with either.
I NEVER said I was a republican. Ever.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=677&pictureid=7102
Three things I strongly dislike right now is this current government, Obama and California, and I see all three as far left, with one jaunt over to the red with the patriot act. Something from the far right, i freaking hate. To say nothing of the NDAA.So you claim to adopt the moderate views of both sides, and the fact that you agree with the majority of issues with republicans is coincidence. Yet when i claim the same exact thing, im a liar who is just some robot hardline democrat in denial? Why? Because you say so? Because you know what i believe better than i do?

[TarJak]

Now now kiddies you're both starting to sound like members of Congress. Or is it just members thumping the table? :O:

[Penguin]

given the close ties between the German BND and the NSA, it is hard to believe the Germans themselves did not know the Chancellor's communications were being monitored.

sooooooo..do we now need someone to apologise on behalf of Germany? :ping:

Nein! :O:
You're looking at it from the wrong angle: according to our glorious rulers it's ok to spy on their citizens, but not on them. :03:
I wrote something about this in the other thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2135139&postcount=25

Afaik Merkel's cell was spied upon with the help of an IMSI catcher, not really a brand new thing, used by German police authorities since many years, especially at demonstrations. That the BND didn't catch the surveillance of Merkel's phone, is just their typical incompetence.

[Ducimus]

Now now kiddies you're both starting to sound like members of Congress. Or is it just members thumping the table? :O:

Eh, what? I didn't get past the second sentence of that wall of text. The second sentence was enough to see where the rest was going. In any event, I'll resolve this issue right now; by adding that (colorful noun) from the most broken state in America to my ignore list and be done with it. I should have done this months ago. I have no time or patience for his ilk.

[Madox58]

I can only think of the scene from a Cheech & Chong movie with Pee Wee Hermin.

I'm sorry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMqZ-BAjVyQ

:har:

[CaptainMattJ.]

And i have no patience for people who have the conversational and argumentative skills of a 4 year old. But at least he'll be happy in his own little world and stop throwing his fallacies at me. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

[Madox58]

This should get good!
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Stuff/th_popcorn2.gif

[Tribesman]

This should get good!
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Stuff/th_popcorn2.gif
Not really, when ducimus gets stroppy over an argument not working out how he would like, he simply throws his toys out the pram.
There is no one there to pick them up for him and he lacks the ability to pick them up without help:yep:
This was a classic example with his own arguments being thrown straight back at him and he could not attack them without destroying his own position, hence the tantrum.

[Catfish]

First, George Orwell was certainly wrong when he wrote "1984". We have learned from it and do now embrace our masters.

Also, from Mr. Alexander:
Our spies "belong to the best people of this nation .. it is a privilege and an honour to work side by side with them."

But are they the best of the best, or really only the best ? :hmm2:
You see, language can be tricky with those superlatives..