US ambassador to Germany hauled over the coals over Merkel spying allegations

[TarJak]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/germany-summons-us-ambassador-over-spying-claims/5044718

I'm surprised that she's surprised that the spying was going on. Still. Maybe it's all a ruse to get people talking about something other than the economy. /sarcasm

[Stealhead]

She does not want the German people to know just how much time she spends playing Fruit Ninja.

[TarJak]

I heard she was the Candykrush Candykrush queen:D

[u crank]

US ambassador to Germany hauled over the coals over Merkel spying allegations

Wait for it.....:O:

[Jimbuna]

I heard she was the Candykrush Candykrush queen:D

:har:

[Skybird]

I find it pathetic when the weak who is weak by his own guilt, demands the strong who is strong by his own responsibility, not to act strongly but weakly instead.

It may be seen as a wake-up call for always appeasing and always outsitting-things Merkel. I just doubt that she means her gesture serious, and that any substantial consequences will come from this - either from the American or the German or EUSSR side. Obama has not much more than just a minor interest for EUSSR anyway, if any at all. And the US must not see any reason to change its doings. Just to hide them better. EUSSR on the other hand has no tools and means in available to chnage the global infrastructure and lock out the Americans within the forseeable timeframe. Nor does it have the spine and the determination. Nor the money.

The sin of the EUSSR in this all has been done 20 and 30 years earlier - when European nations allowed the Americans to get strategic supremacy in these fields of building the internet and communication networks without forming up any relevant infrastructure by its own that aimed at trying to compete and to equalize this strategic advantage.

Especially the Germans are very good in giving up industrial and economic key infrastructure and competence for nothing. Well. We therefore get what we deserve: nothing. That is true for so many different themes and issues. Damn German romanticism. I'm sick and tired of this mental desease. I prefer anglosaxon rationality and sense for reality any time. The Brits formed up conceptions of liberalism, self-responsible humanism and freedom. Our response: protestant brainwashing to submit to and obey the state's superior authority, and socialist utopism. Great. :dead:

[Madox58]

Especially the Germans are very good in giving up industrial and economic key infrastructure and competence for nothing.

We call it the North American Free Trade Agreement here.
It pretty much shut factories down in the blink of an eye and moved them south of the Rio Grande.

So Germany doesn't hold the market share of 'WTH were you thinking' types.
:nope:

[Tribesman]

The sin of the EUSSR
I do wish you would make your mind up, I thought you said it was a secret Islamic theocracy and a club of the commercial and political elites, not a workers socialist council.
If you are going to throw in these crazy theories at least pick one and stick to it instead of using multiple contradictory ones:doh:

[Madox58]

The Secret Islamic Theocracy and Commercial and Political Elites are busy this weekend.
Press 1 for English and we will be sure to connect you to someone that does not speak English very well.
:D

[Stealhead]

The Secret Islamic Theocracy and Commercial and Political Elites are busy this weekend.
Press 1 for English and we will be sure to connect you to someone that does not speak English very well.
:D


Sad thing is I have spoken to people on the phone who are clearly from India and they speak better English than most of the Americans at American call centers do.Of course in India a call center is a middle class job in the US such a job is bottom market 90% of the time.

[TorpX]

We call it the North American Free Trade Agreement here.
It pretty much shut factories down in the blink of an eye and moved them south of the Rio Grande.

So Germany doesn't hold the market share of 'WTH were you thinking' types.
:nope:
Yes, American nitwits getting caught spying on European nitwits.

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/gillard-slams-us-decision-to-cancel-apec-visit/5044744

:haha: As if Dullard would have had anything worth listening to.

Mexico is getting into the act as as well http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-23/mexico-calls-on-us-to-widen-spy-probe-after-new-allegations/5039378

[Madox58]

Yes, American nitwits getting caught spying on European nitwits.


Heck! Thier Spying on everyone!!
I'd expect some unknown WarLord some where to soon complain the U.S. is NOT spying on him and start some crap.
:har:

"You no spy on me U.S.? I KELL YOU!"

[Platapus]

Why do you think we consider Germany our ally? Because we monitor them! :yep:

Trust but verify. :up:

This is what nations do. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

[Nippelspanner]

Why do you think we consider Germany our ally? Because we monitor them! :yep:

Trust but verify. :up:

This is what nations do. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise.
Not sure if monitoring her private mobile phone is necessary for this. It is simply illegal, that's what it is.
I wonder why anyone is interested in that hags privacy anyways. Terrible chancellor :nope:

[Platapus]

It is simply illegal,

Many intelligence operations are illegal from the standpoint of the target. :D

[Nippelspanner]

Many intelligence operations are illegal from the standpoint of the target. :D
Exactly.

[Platapus]

This is why the United States gets upset when the Chinese "hack" into our systems, but is strangely silent when China gets upset when the US "hacks" in to their systems.

Espionage is always legal in the first person - our espionage programs. It is only in the second or third person -- your or their espionage programs that it becomes illegal. :up:

Part of the hypocrisy of Realpolitik is that countries often act "surprised" when one country does to them what they are doing to the other country.


Renault: Everybody is to leave here immediately! This cafe is closed until further notice. Clear the room, at once!Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?Renault: I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!Employee of Rick's: [hands Renault money] Your winnings, sir.Renault: Oh, thank you, very much. Everybody out at once!

[Feuer Frei!]

So BBC tells me today that the spying on Angie's mobile has been going on since early 2000. And Obama knew nothing about it. WTF?
Playing dumb? I think so.

The general feedback i've been getting, via BBC reports, when questioning department heads and various organisations, including the UK PM is that it's all ok to spy on people, and perfectly fine to spy on your allies.

The justification most agree on is that the countrie's security comes first and that, for example, in PM Cameron's words is that anyone that questions the necessity and reason for spying on individuals, no matter who they are, is to be criticized denounced as some evil-doer who has no right questioning the moral implications, not to mention the legal implications in some cases and the justification on select targets.

Once again, i say wtf?

If i was Angie, i would be furious. Livid.

If the Germans were spying on Obama since early 2000, what would be the implications of that?
Big bad Germany? I can see it now, the ignorant hate rhetorics bleated i bet.

It shouldn't be a shock that spying on other countries has gone on since ww2.

But what should be a shock is spying on your allies, indeed moreso the leader of a allied country!

Alliance my arse.

The US worried that Germany will become a super power (again) and rise up against the European nations and take Lebensraum?

What a joke.

EDIT:

I'll add this:

NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/24/nsa-surveillance-world-leaders-calls

[Mr Quatro]

I don't have time to read everything the NSA whistleblower Snowden said or divulged to outside sources, but how can anyone be sure that what was said was what he really said?

Someone is making money off of this reporting that the NSA did this and the NSA did that and who they did it to. Who can tell what the truth is besides the NSA and they are not about to admit to or claim or disclaim anything, because that is their very nature.

I suspect and ponder all of this news is a way to make waves and lots of money ... life goes on.

One thing I do know Russia now knows a lot more than it did and how the NSA works. All that's left is for another country to get caught up in this spying effort to obtain classified information :yep:

[Tribesman]

One thing I do know Russia now knows a lot more than it did and how the NSA works.
Do you really think they didn't know already?
All this has meant is that the average Russian and the average American now knows a little bit about the huge scale at which phone calls are recorded.

[Jimbuna]

Pretty much how I see it.

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-29/spain-summons-us-ambassador-over-spying-reports/5051220

Spain is the next to jump up and down about the same thing.

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/australia-acting-as-listening-post-for-us-spy-agencies/5056534

We get tarred with the same brush.

The whole partisan political crap being spouted here is laughable. I don't think either party can claim any moral high ground here because the spying on allies has been going on since the dawn of time. BO has just been left standing when the music stopped.

[Penguin]

Merkel can cry a big river of crocodile tears. The same woman who denied knowledge of Prism or the NSA or GCHQ surveiling German citizens suddenly cries wolf? Gimme a break.

Germany has always been on top of spying on its own citizens. In the 90s we already had nearly as many telephone surveillances as the US, with less than a third of its population. The difference is that the public here gets even less information about the scale of spying. An intelligence boss speaking in an open parliament session, like Keith Alexander did? Unthinkable in Germany. The plebs don't have to know anything.

The last numbers we got, were from 2010 when 37 million emails (out of an unknown monitored number n) were closer observed. They found "something" in whopping 213 cases, or 0.00058% - how many of those really lead to something usefull or arrests is also unknown.

Today we assume that about 20% of the email traffic in Germany get monitored. The same people who called the GDR an injust system, because it spied on its own citizens, are now fulfilling the wet dreams of the Stasi.

[TarJak]

http://pandodaily.com/2013/10/26/i-challenged-hackers-to-investigate-me-and-what-they-found-out-is-chilling/?goback=%2Egmr_48613%2Egde_48613_member_5801132974 095220739

This article is about a journo qho arranged a a personal pwn test by a white hat hacking firm. Interesting and scary.

[Jimbuna]

http://pandodaily.com/2013/10/26/i-challenged-hackers-to-investigate-me-and-what-they-found-out-is-chilling/?goback=%2Egmr_48613%2Egde_48613_member_5801132974 095220739

This article is about a journo qho arranged a a personal pwn test by a white hat hacking firm. Interesting and scary.

Indeed :hmmm:

[TarJak]

Merkel can probably blame her own security mob for not providing her with a secure mobile phone. But even if it was the BND were probably still recording and sharing the info with NSA anyway.

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-01/lynch-spying-on-friends/5063818

I think this commentary is spot on. How BO can claim ignorance of the activities of his government agencies is beyond me.

Merkel also cannot be so naive as to no know her spies are also spying on Germanys allies. I'm pretty sure our mob are checking out Indonesia and other countries in the region.

[Platapus]

How BO can claim ignorance of the activities of his government agencies is beyond me.

Two words: Plausible Deniability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

In the areas of sensitive espionage, it is not uncommon for senior executives to specifically request that they not be told of the specifics.

This allows the President to avoid some blame and if the issue really gets serious, allows the sacrifice of minion for "over stepping their authority" in withholding information that should have been given to the president. Yadda yadda yadda. :nope:

Some Presidents are better at it than others. They did not call Reagan the "Teflon President" for nothing. He was a slick one. Or a slimy one depending on your viewpoint. :D

While the President probably knew that the US was collecting on our allies (we have been doing it for decades uh that's assuming that we actually do collect on our allies. :03:), it is entirely possible that the President did not have any information on specifically what is being collected. These are matters way below his paygrade. There is simply no way a chief executive of any large country could know or even understand the details of every single intelligence collection operation.

The DNI and DIRNSA knew about it.

This is why briefing congress is so complicated. There are issues in which congress does not wish to be involved in. Issues in which congress should not be involved in, and the issues in which congress needs to be involved in. The problem is when these are in conflict with each other.

Of course, if something goes wrong, all of a sudden congress starts yelling that they should have been informed. Unfortunately, the DNI is not allowed to state that he was instructed by the congressional committee not to brief the members. That's just part of the fun dealing with congress.

The problem with Plausible Deniability is that no one really believes it but it is still handy. :)

[TarJak]

No doubt. But if Merkel was saying anything of interest then the president would have been told. Particularly prior to a meeting between the two.

[Jimbuna]

No doubt. But if Merkel was saying anything of interest then the president would have been told. Particularly prior to a meeting between the two.

I'm waiting for the sex tapes to be released...I hope there is an English version :O:

[Schroeder]

I'm waiting for the sex tapes to be released...I hope there is an English version :O:
Are you some sort of masochist? :o

[Jimbuna]

Are you some sort of masochist? :o

Of course :03: