Thousands re-enact Napoleonic Battle of the Nations

[Jimbuna]

For Nicki/Jason...a great looking re-enactment.


Some 6,000 history buffs in period military costume are re-enacting one of Germany's bloodiest battles, the Battle of the Nations.
French Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte was defeated near Leipzig in October 1813 by forces from Russia, Austria, Prussia and Sweden.
Tens of thousands of spectators are attending the reconstruction, described as a "reconciliation".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24599921

In pictures

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24601870

[August]

That would be an awesome event to attend. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

In German casualty terms only beaten by Stalingrad.

http://www.military-history.org/articles/5-bloodiest-battles-in-history.htm

[Oberon]

History must be kept alive by any means possible, for if we forget then we will make the same mistakes as before.
You can teach history in a classroom to children until you are blue in the face, and only part of it will seep in if they do not have an active thirst for it, but show them the smoke and thunder of a 'safe' battlefield, it will drive home the awesome spectacle and hopefully inspire them to learn more.
Of course, it's a thin line between creating a spectacle and glorifying war, but equally, if you suppress it all then you will learn nothing.

With that little ramble aside, what a fantastic display, I love the idea of the local news station doing a rolling news report on it, as though it was taking place in the modern era.
Some of the finest armies in Europe took part in that battle, all of them in fact, and it shows in the casualty count.

Oh, and Rod Steiger is best Napoleon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mksNgNorvz0

Except perhaps the opening to NTW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06fUJSw3mQ

Sends chills down my spine every time I watch it. :doh:

[Jimbuna]

History must be kept alive by any means possible, for if we forget then we will make the same mistakes as before.
You can teach history in a classroom to children until you are blue in the face, and only part of it will seep in if they do not have an active thirst for it, but show them the smoke and thunder of a 'safe' battlefield, it will drive home the awesome spectacle and hopefully inspire them to learn more.
Of course, it's a thin line between creating a spectacle and glorifying war, but equally, if you suppress it all then you will learn nothing.

With that little ramble aside, what a fantastic display, I love the idea of the local news station doing a rolling news report on it, as though it was taking place in the modern era.
Some of the finest armies in Europe took part in that battle, all of them in fact, and it shows in the casualty count.

Oh, and Rod Steiger is best Napoleon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mksNgNorvz0

Except perhaps the opening to NTW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06fUJSw3mQ

Sends chills down my spine every time I watch it. :doh:

I'd be struggling to think of someone better at playing The Little Corporal.

[Tribesman]

I'd be struggling to think of someone better at playing The Little Corporal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUMkrNLyB_g

[Skybird]

Nobody learns nothing from such spectacles, they are just minimizing the historic event - by turning it into an entertaining spectaculum. People go home, and do not know one bit more on the real important things to learn form the past: how political and sociological and cultural events and processes lead to consequences which become in themselves causes for following historic developments.

And why should the young ones be expected to endlessly remember the burdens of the past, when they are under immense pressure themselves in the present and have very grim future perspectives ahead themselves? At least in Germany, there is an inflation of remembrance days and paedagogical media bombardment and so many things of that type, especially the Nazi era of cause. I do not like this remembrance industry at all. What I like is reading a proper historic analysis of past times and eras, because understanding the How and Why that lead to past events is what helps you to form an educated stand towards present problems and challenges - or not. The purpose of remembrance certainly cannot be to make people just properly entertained or fascinated by lethal dramas.

Henryk Broder once wrote that he would shut down and plow under the Auschwitz remembrance site immediately (he is a Jew of Polish origin, btw.), although he would miss the good food being served in the museum's restaurant (first slap) that visitors hold in very high esteem, and the local postcard printers and souvenir sellers probably would lose a good income source (second slap).

I would limit monuments to a given timeframe for their existence say 50 years, then they get dismantled. Too oftehn ,monuments are taken as an inviting opportunity and excuse by people to not think for themselves, but leave the thinking to stones and professional animators. Our schoolkids meanwhile more and more often even fail in assessing the German imminent past already, and misinterpret terms and names regarding the wall and the GDR, East and West. What should they burden themselves with the battle of Leipzig then? The worry should be that these young people have their future already sold away and that they have no proper basis of political education, nevertheless are allowed to vote. You need a license to drive a car - but you are allowed to vote without any qualification at all...?

In German only, sorry: this opinion piece was published in Die Welt some days ago. I felt great agreement with the author.

LINK - Die Zukunft müllt sich mit Vergangenheit zu (The future spams itself with the past) (http://www.welt.de/kultur/article120997423/Die-Zukunft-muellt-sich-mit-Vergangenheit-zu.html)

[August]

We have our Patriots Day reenactments right on the historical battlefield.
http://lightdancespirit.com/files/2012/10/Concord-Minute-Men.jpg

[tootsie]

Too cool.:rock:

[the_tyrant]

Nobody learns nothing from such spectacles, they are just minimizing the historic event - by turning it into an entertaining spectaculum. People go home, and do not know one bit more on the real important things to learn form the past: how political and sociological and cultural events and processes lead to consequences which become in themselves causes for following historic developments.

And why should the young ones be expected to endlessly remember the burdens of the past, when they are under immense pressure themselves in the present and have very grim future perspectives ahead themselves? At least in Germany, there is an inflation of remembrance days and paedagogical media bombardment and so many things of that type, especially the Nazi era of cause. I do not like this remembrance industry at all. What I like is reading a proper historic analysis of past times and eras, because understanding the How and Why that lead to past events is what helps you to form an educated stand towards present problems and challenges - or not. The purpose of remembrance certainly cannot be to make people just properly entertained or fascinated by lethal dramas.

Henryk Broder once wrote that he would shut down and plow under the Auschwitz remembrance site immediately (he is a Jew of Polish origin, btw.), although he would miss the good food being served in the museum's restaurant (first slap) that visitors hold in very high esteem, and the local postcard printers and souvenir sellers probably would lose a good income source (second slap).

I would limit monuments to a given timeframe for their existence say 50 years, then they get dismantled. Too oftehn ,monuments are taken as an inviting opportunity and excuse by people to not think for themselves, but leave the thinking to stones and professional animators. Our schoolkids meanwhile more and more often even fail in assessing the German imminent past already, and misinterpret terms and names regarding the wall and the GDR, East and West. What should they burden themselves with the battle of Leipzig then? The worry should be that these young people have their future already sold away and that they have no proper basis of political education, nevertheless are allowed to vote. You need a license to drive a car - but you are allowed to vote without any qualification at all...?

In German only, sorry: this opinion piece was published in Die Welt some days ago. I felt great agreement with the author.

LINK - Die Zukunft müllt sich mit Vergangenheit zu (The future spams itself with the past) (http://www.welt.de/kultur/article120997423/Die-Zukunft-muellt-sich-mit-Vergangenheit-zu.html)


Come on bro, don't be a killjoy, have some fun!:yep:

[Feuer Frei!]

@ Skybird:

the Organiser was interviewed on BBC and was asked the question: do you ever worry that the battles you stage are sending the wrong message to people, for example that war is just a game?

He replied: yes, all the time.

[Tribesman]

Nobody learns nothing from such spectacles, they are just minimizing the historic event - by turning it into an entertaining spectaculum. People go home, and do not know one bit more on the real important things to learn form the past: how political and sociological and cultural events and processes lead to consequences which become in themselves causes for following historic developments.

And why should the young ones be expected to endlessly remember the burdens of the past, when they are under immense pressure themselves in the present and have very grim future perspectives ahead themselves? At least in Germany, there is an inflation of remembrance days and paedagogical media bombardment and so many things of that type, especially the Nazi era of cause. I do not like this remembrance industry at all. What I like is reading a proper historic analysis of past times and eras, because understanding the How and Why that lead to past events is what helps you to form an educated stand towards present problems and challenges - or not. The purpose of remembrance certainly cannot be to make people just properly entertained or fascinated by lethal dramas.

Henryk Broder once wrote that he would shut down and plow under the Auschwitz remembrance site immediately (he is a Jew of Polish origin, btw.), although he would miss the good food being served in the museum's restaurant (first slap) that visitors hold in very high esteem, and the local postcard printers and souvenir sellers probably would lose a good income source (second slap).

I would limit monuments to a given timeframe for their existence say 50 years, then they get dismantled. Too oftehn ,monuments are taken as an inviting opportunity and excuse by people to not think for themselves, but leave the thinking to stones and professional animators. Our schoolkids meanwhile more and more often even fail in assessing the German imminent past already, and misinterpret terms and names regarding the wall and the GDR, East and West. What should they burden themselves with the battle of Leipzig then? The worry should be that these young people have their future already sold away and that they have no proper basis of political education, nevertheless are allowed to vote. You need a license to drive a car - but you are allowed to vote without any qualification at all...?

In German only, sorry: this opinion piece was published in Die Welt some days ago. I felt great agreement with the author.

LINK - Die Zukunft müllt sich mit Vergangenheit zu (The future spams itself with the past) (http://www.welt.de/kultur/article120997423/Die-Zukunft-muellt-sich-mit-Vergangenheit-zu.html)
That statement is clearly complete bollox.
Purely by chance I came across a bunch of sealed knot types in a village pub in England. I learned a hell of a lot both about their history and the ties to our local history. Its very big on the social political and cultural consequences over a wide area for a long period.
As a bonus one of their local "monument" features manages to tie from events in the war of the three kingdoms right up to the era of the Nazis, both events come into the category of "longer than 50 years" too.

[TarJak]

In German casualty terms only beaten by Stalingrad.

http://www.military-history.org/articles/5-bloodiest-battles-in-history.htm

The first Battle of the Somme got short changed in this list. They only counted first day casualties whereas they count the full battle of Stalingrad. Somme casualties were 623,907 Allied and 465,000 German for a total of 1,088,907.

[Skybird]

@ Skybird:

the Organiser was interviewed on BBC and was asked the question: do you ever worry that the battles you stage are sending the wrong message to people, for example that war is just a game?

He replied: yes, all the time.
Then maybe he would be well advised to let it be.

Shows like this are sending the wrong message necessarily. His precious sensible worry thus should be more correctly labelled as "bad conscience".

[Jimbuna]

The first Battle of the Somme got short changed in this list. They only counted first day casualties whereas they count the full battle of Stalingrad. Somme casualties were 623,907 Allied and 465,000 German for a total of 1,088,907.

The article was highlighting the British figure of 60,000 but I am happy to stand corrected :salute:

[TarJak]

The article was highlighting the British figure of 60,000 but I am happy to stand corrected :salute:

These numbers are for the dates between 1 July and 18 November 1916:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme#Casualties :know::salute:

Almost 8000 per day over 140 days compared with Stalingrad's 12,000+ per day over 163 days.

[Jimbuna]

So Stalingrad was the higher figure? :hmmm:

[TarJak]

So Stalingrad was the higher figure? :hmmm:
Yep but Somme would have come in at #2 rather than Leipzig. I just thought it odd that they only counted the first day of the Somme nut the included the full 5 months odd for Stalingrad. Somme went almost 5 months but the first day was certainly the bloodiest.

[Jimbuna]

Yep but Somme would have come in at #2 rather than Leipzig. I just thought it odd that they only counted the first day of the Somme nut the included the full 5 months odd for Stalingrad. Somme went almost 5 months but the first day was certainly the bloodiest.

Yeah, 'somme' would say that :)

[nikimcbee]

@ Jim:up::salute:
When I first saw the thread, I thought it was about the Battle of Austerlitz, which was on Dec 1st. I don't know much about the Battle of Leipzig:oops:.

I'd love to go to one of these Napoleonic reenactments, but they don't do them in the US. Plus Napoleonic reenacting is really expensive:dead:, the guns are the cheapest part, the uniforms...not so much.:dead::dead:

[Jimbuna]

I doubt many of us do, just look at the list :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Napoleonic_battles

[Oberon]

Yep but Somme would have come in at #2 rather than Leipzig. I just thought it odd that they only counted the first day of the Somme nut the included the full 5 months odd for Stalingrad. Somme went almost 5 months but the first day was certainly the bloodiest.

Passchendaele too, the casualty toll is still not certain, but it was greater than Leipzig. In fact, to be honest, the rest of the top five could probably be made up of World War One battles and battles of the Great Patriotic War.

[nikimcbee]

I thought the Battle of Borodino was the mother of all Napoleonic battles.

[Dread Knot]

I thought the Battle of Borodino was the mother of all Napoleonic battles.

It certainly was the Mother Russia of all Napoleonic battles. :D

[TarJak]

Passchendaele too, the casualty toll is still not certain, but it was greater than Leipzig. In fact, to be honest, the rest of the top five could probably be made up of World War One battles and battles of the Great Patriotic War.

Luckilly Wikipedia has one already prepared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_by_casualties

Interesting that the Battle of Baghdad in 1258 had a staggering 2.1M casualties. For a classical formation battle that's an incredible number.

[Jimbuna]

Luckilly Wikipedia has one already prepared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_by_casualties

Interesting that the Battle of Baghdad in 1258 had a staggering 2.1M casualties. For a classical formation battle that's an incredible number.

Looks like it took less than a month or so to get to that figure :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

[Skybird]

The Mongolian storm on Baghdad was a wipeout of the city, that's why. The city was destroyed, the population more or less annihilated. On a side note, many of that time's promising "alternative thinkers" and "mystics" of name of the Islamic world were killed there. That's why until today Islam has not really an esoteric, mystic tradition of real size and importance. It'S roots got killed by the Mongolian attack. Sufism later on never became more than just a curiosity that today attracts tourists. The Mongols had gotten some trouble by the order of the Assassines, and solved the problem finally by wiping out their order without making compromises (something all others who were terrorised by them were unfit to achieve). Afterwards they wanted to execute an example against those factions that once were allied or in support of them. The Abassides' caliphate in Persia was top on their list, therefor.

[TarJak]

Looks like it took less than a month or so to get to that figure :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

Yep the Mongols went through it like a dose of salts.:yep:

[Jimbuna]

Yep the Mongols went through it like a dose of salts.:yep:

True that....makes the Nanking Massacre look tiny in comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre