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cbrown1790
10-11-13, 02:48 PM
Hi all,

I have read these forums, guides, watched the youtube videos but I STILL cannot grasp manual targeting.

I understand how to get the targets course and speed. I use the easy aob mod to figure out aob.

But the problems that I have is applying the methods that everyone seems to use with ease.

I cannot seem to get into good firing positions i.e. I dont know how to approach to a target---i always seem to end up behind it

I try to use 90 degree approaches off the targets course, but something always seems to happen at the last minute that ruins my approach.

I guess what I would like help with is tactics....

1. How close should I get before firing?

2. Is the best way to approach a target is to make a high speed run deep underwater and wait for the target to arrive?

3. At what distance can I be detected on the surface on a clear day?

I have been trying the sub school convoy scenario (number 4), and what I do is first determine their course and speed. I have them at 260/5kts. My course is already at 330, so I just adjust to 350 for the 90 degree approach.

I am far away (I think), so I go deep at flank speed to get within 1nm of their project course. It seems like when I arrive at the intended spot, I go to periscope depth to look. All of a sudden these ships are doing circles. It gets so complicated, that I have problems tracking and setting up an approach.

This is normally when things turn to crap for me. They are behind me, in front of me, and on either side.

Sometimes the stern tubes line up better, but I get confused using those tubes....

I dont know if I need to think "reverse" since its the stern tubes.

4. How is AOB affected when aiming with the aft tubes?

If the target course is 270 (right to left) but I am using aft tubes----do I need to have the AOB say its going 090 (left to right) ????

I am so confused right now....I want to learn how to do this effectively.

Ant help from you guys would be appreciated..:)

Thank you.

doulos05
10-11-13, 07:24 PM
Well, I can't help too much with the manual targeting questions, but I can help you with approach.

First of all, the name of the game in the approach is patience. My rule for it goes roughly like this:
Surfaced flank: No closer than 10 nm
Surfaced full: No closer than 7 nm
Submerge the moment you see smoke on the horizon (check this for yourself manually every 15 minutes or so)

At this point, you should be in a good enough position that your submerged maneuvers are adjusting for target track and escort maneuvers (and setting up your escape). You should be nudging the boat, not moving her. Try to keep her around ahead 1/3rd to ahead standard. Save submerged flank for dodging depth charges.

Now here, I leave my scope up all the time. I'll submerge below the layer and come to periscope depth periodically (to use the distance traveled to knots trick, make it a multiple of 3:00 or 3:15, depending on whether your game runs imperial or metric) to check their approach, update my fix on them, and make/confirm my target selections. When you pass the thermal layer, it's important that 1) you be close to bow-on to the closest escort (that is, your nose is pointed at them) and 2) you be at least 1,000 yards from said escort unless you're coming up for your attack. Depending on how skilled the escort is (something you can't know until he actually locates you), you could come to periscope depth closer, 1,000 yards is just being conservative.

Rising to periscope depth procedure:
1) Turn the boat so you're bow-on to the escort
2) Give orders for periscope depth
3) Man the periscope (You left it up, right?).
4) When you pass 100 feet, flood all tubes and open all torpedo bay doors (just in case the tactical situation has changed and you pop up with a juicy shot right in front of you)
5) just before your periscope breaks the surface, point your periscope at the nearest escort since he'll be the first to react if you're detected (assuming you made the correct turns, he should be at roughly 0 degrees.
6) When you surface, watch him for a second or two, then do a wide angle (that is, no zoom) sweep of the convoy. Look for big, juicy targets and pick one as your primary if you haven't do so already. Pop out to your map, make whatever marks you need to for your chosen method of manual targeting.
7) Update PK if relevant (actually I always do this so I know when I should start to surface for my final attack, I'll clear it before shooting if I'm using Dick O'Kane, but it's a useful reference when you're at 165 feet and all you have to go on are sonar lines)
8) Have one last look at the closest escort, has he found you? (spotlights, aggressive acceleration or conns, etc)
9) dive for the depths, man the periscope for the first 20 feet of diving with it trained on the escort, sometimes you can still make out his hull (especially if you have a clear waters environ mod)

Your surface to attack should begin just after the lead escort has passed. At this point, you're inside the convoy. Now, you need to start thinking about the guy on your port or starboard (the flanking escort). Hopefully you aren't directly in front of him (he usually more than 1,000 yards off the side of the convoy), but no matter where you are, begin your climb to periscope depth. Same procedure as before. Line up your targets, fire your fish (try to fire at your targets from farthest to closest if you can so they all arrive around the same time), and watch the clock. I usually stay at periscope depth because I like the booms, but the safe thing to do is dive for the layer again. As soon as the first torpedo impacts, ahead flank for the thermal layer (they know you're there, silent running doesn't help you nearly as much as the thermal layer will). Once you pass the thermal layer, rig for silent running and steer towards your exit. If there are 3 escorts, I prefer to exit out the rear of the convoy. If there are 4 in a diamond, I go out one of the sides of the diamond (between the rear escort and either the left or right flanking escort).

TorpX
10-11-13, 09:33 PM
Hi all,

I have read these forums, guides, watched the youtube videos but I STILL cannot grasp manual targeting.

I understand how to get the targets course and speed. I use the easy aob mod to figure out aob.

But the problems that I have is applying the methods that everyone seems to use with ease.

...

Ant help from you guys would be appreciated..:)


Part of the problem with this sort of thing is that different people use different styles and techniques, so it isn't possible to give a "one size fits all" answer.

I haven't used the easy Aob mod, but I'll try to give you a few general tips.

As far as sighting distances in daylight. I would assume I can be spotted from at least 6 nm. Keep in mind, escorts and naval vessels are more alert than merchants. At night there are so many variables it's hard to generalize. Also mods affect these things.

Usually, in daytime you will try to close submerged, and your limited speed and circumstances will determine the outcome. If you have doubts about being able to close the target's track, use a Normal Approach Course. (post 7)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=186191&highlight=Approach

With a NAC, you can intercept a target with a minimum of speed. If you cannot close the track with a NAC at your best speed, you must let it pass and do an "end-around", or let it go.

I wouldn't try using the stock game school mission (the one with a cruiser). It will not teach you anything worthwhile. I'm not sure what other missions there are available, but there must be some.

I am far away (I think), so I go deep at flank speed to get within 1nm of their project course. It seems like when I arrive at the intended spot, I go to periscope depth to look. All of a sudden these ships are doing circles. It gets so complicated, that I have problems tracking and setting up an approach.
If you are going flank in proximity to enemy ships, they almost certainly heard you. You should endevor to close the track, before they get there, then you can move the final few thousand yards at low speed.

I try for shots at 1,500 or 2,000 yds. Sometimes 3,000, but it really depends on circumstances. If you are having trouble and are unsure of your plotting data, try to get closer.

Sometimes the stern tubes line up better, but I get confused using those tubes....

I dont know if I need to think "reverse" since its the stern tubes.


You don't need to think in reverse with the stern tubes (at least not with the TDC). It was designed so that crews could launch torpedoes in rapidly changing situations, if need be.

Put speed, range, Aob, and bearing estimates into the TDC at each observation. All data is based on observations from the periscope of TBT of the sub, so you don't really have to overthink this aspect. The Position Keeper should be ON. Ideally, you will be checking the TDC generated info against your plot in between periscope observations, so you will know how well your approach is shaking out. Agreement between the TDC generated data and further observations will provide confidence that your firing data is correct. After that, you can launch whenever you consider the position to be optimal.

Don't expect to master manual targeting quickly. It takes some time. Experience in plotting the approach will help a lot.

I hope this helps. :salute:

magic452
10-12-13, 01:45 AM
A couple of more points.

The name of the game is Approach. The better your approach the more successful you'll be. As already pointed out by Dolus05 patience is the most valuable thing you can have, take your time get way ahead of your target and get set up long before it gets there. You have a big speed advantage over all but the fastest war ships so use that speed to your advantage and get ahead of the target. Never use flank or full speed anywhere near a target 1/3 at the most.

Plot the targets course and extend that plot line way out there and position yourself a thousand yards or so off the extended line and let the target come to you. You can be setting there at silent running at 0 knots till they get close enough to do your firing set up. Position your boat so that your bow is aimed at the plot line about 90° or less. In my opinion about 75° is best, a smaller target but more room for error.

As for AoB the B is the Bow of the target ship not yours. The position of your bow has nothing to do with it, it's the target. Port and starboard on the AoB dial you set to what ever side of the target you will see. The port and starboard of AoB will be the same for the stern tubes as it is for the bow.

From left to right you will see the starboard side of the target so set AoB to starboard. Right to left use port.

Always turn on the PK and than input data, speed first than AoB and last bearing and range.

Forget that school mission it isn't worth a darn. Your far too close to the convoy and you have already been spotted the second you start the mission. Go on a patrol or single mission and find a single target and save the game as soon as you get one, you than can practice different approaches and see which works best. You can also get some practice with all aspects of manual targeting. Don't do a career mission where you have an area and an objective. You just want to practice. No Captain was ever sent out on a war patrol without some practice. Pick a war patrol after mid'43 so that you have radar makes learning much easier, you've got enough to learn without the handicap of having to get within visual range to get the data for a good target plot.

Magic

cbrown1790
10-12-13, 02:29 AM
THANKS TO ALL!

There is a lot of good information with different techniques here..a lot absorb!

One thing that is a constant is the use of the PK. All the videos or tuturials that I read recommended to keep it off--- so I never used it.

Also, I need to try on something different than sub school missions--and be more patient.

That "Course Approach" thread was very good reading. Is there a good/easier way to determine intercepts?

thanks again. I will try these later on and probably come back with more questions:)

TorpX
10-12-13, 11:09 PM
One thing that is a constant is the use of the PK. All the videos or tuturials that I read recommended to keep it off--- so I never used it.

Probably the authors play the U-boat side. German subs didn't have it, so they often don't understand how to use it. They are also big on the 90 degree track thing. :haha:

That "Course Approach" thread was very good reading. Is there a good/easier way to determine intercepts?


There is no easier way. There are vector addition and maneuvering board methods, which allow you to calculate the speed required to intercept on a given course, or the course you should follow to intercept at a given speed, but they are more complicated techniques.

The main drawback with the Normal Approach Course is that if the target is no longer on a closing track (range is increasing), than it has already "gotten by", and the NAC will avail you nothing. If this happens you must either "chase after" the target (seldom possible at submerged speeds), or do an "end-around".

If the target is some distance away, you can always plot out it's course, and your own possible intercepts, to consider what is your best option. Skippers often wanted to delay or hasten interceptions to take advantage of light, moon position, deep water, etc. It isn't strictly a matter of geometry.



Something I should have mentioned before. You should use the map-contacts option, if you haven't already done so. I don't like to use it in career mode, but when you are learning MT, it will make things easier.

cbrown1790
10-14-13, 08:34 AM
I have trying the Dick O'Kane method lately....

I had multiple targets to shoot at and I was just lining up for 90 degree shots...

I put everything the TDC, offsetting the aiming point 10 degrees for speed, everything seems good, except for the torpedo.

I have checked my solution on the torpedo track screen (the other side of the chart tools). And its shows that the torpedo will take a hard right/left turn shortly after firing....and it will miss----BAD! Which it did, unfortunately..

Is there something I need to do to clear previous inputs into the TDC? I feel that this is the problem with the hard turns.

Its very frustrating......still!

Thanks again.

magic452
10-15-13, 12:20 AM
To zero the TDC you can set speed to zero and send to TDC.
Set AoB to zero and send and last turn the periscope to zero and pull the range triangle down as far as it will go and send range/bearing to TDC.
This will clear out any data in the TDC and any torpedo shot will go straight out the bow at 0 bearing.

One other thing to do is check the Gyro offset dial and make sure it's also at zero.

It's not necessary to do this if you just loaded from a save as default is zeros.

It's best to start from zero for any zero gyro angle shot, O'Kane, Cromwell or vector analysis method. I like vector analysis myself but O'Kane is also very good. For a VA shot it's mandatory to zero the TDC.

Magic

TorpX
10-15-13, 12:57 AM
I have trying the Dick O'Kane method lately....

...


Its very frustrating......still!


It's up to you, but I would try to learn the ordinary vanilla use of the TDC, before you try other methods. Switching off between various TDC methods, DOK, vector techniques is likely to be confusing. It is easier to master one at a time.

cbrown1790
10-15-13, 02:46 AM
It's best to start from zero for any zero gyro angle shot, O'Kane, Cromwell or vector analysis method. I like vector analysis myself but O'Kane is also very good. For a VA shot it's mandatory to zero the TDC.

Magic[/QUOTE]

I am not sure that I fully understand and if you could clarify one thing for me, that would be great..

Are you saying that I need to keep everything zeroed out using these methods?

Not entering AOB or Speed in the TDC? Just shooting straight at 000?

Thanks.:)

magic452
10-16-13, 01:35 AM
For a vector analysis firing solution everything needs to be at zero, you don't use the TDC at all, you fire straight out the bow.

For O'Kane or Cromwell attacks you use the TDC but I have found that I get better results(fewer mistakes) if I zero everything out before I start inputting any data. That way I know that I don't have any old data to content with.

Vector Analysis is the most accurate method there is as far as I'm concerned but the O'Kane method is very very good. You just need to make sure you have everything set up right. After you do it a few times it's very easy.

Getting the targets course is most important. After mid '43 you have radar and with map contacts on it's easy to do.

Radar will update every 20 seconds so once you get a contact wait until
the targets jumps ahead and mark an X. Bring up the stopwatch and start it, wait 3 minutes and when the target jumps mark another X. Leave the stopwatch running and mark a third X at the next three minutes, I do this for 9 minutes and will have 4 X's

If you draw a line from the first X to the last X, that will give you the targets course, just extend the line way out there and you will be able to see the best place to intercept it.

Use your speed advantage to get into position well before the target gets there, set up about 1,000 yards off the course line and wait.

As you wait measure the distance between the first X and the second.
This distance will give you the targets speed, if the distance is 600 yards the speed will be 6 knots. 1,000 yards = 10 knots. One knot for every 100 yards. If you have used the full 9 minutes you measure form the first X to the forth and divide that distance by 300 to get speed 1,800/300 = 6 knots. This course and speed will be very accurate.

Once you have target course and speed and you set up your intercept right the rest is pretty easy. You can use a regular TDC attack or any one of the zero gyro angle attacks.

A good target course will also make AoB much easier and far more accurate. While you are waiting for the target to get to you you can also get your AoB. Take the protractor tool and put the center on the target course line a head of the target. Read the number on the outer edge nearest the target ship. wirte this number down, it's the targets course in degrees. The compass rose is inverted so it's important to remember to read the number closest to the target.

Now go to the data input dials, the right set of dials, and input the target speed. turn on the position Keeper (PK), left side dials at the bottom right.
Send speed to TDC.

Bring up the AoB input dial and you will see port and starboard and the number of degrees with a ship icon in the center. Turn that ship to port or starboard depending on which side of the target you will be shooting at and send to TDC. When you do this look at the left top dial and you will see the target ship dial turn. The bow of the target icon will point to a number on the outside ring of the top left dial. That number is what you told the TDC the target course should be. That is all AoB does. Adjust the the input dial until you get the left target dial to point to the course you wrote down earlier. It sounds complicated but it's not really, just turn the AoB input dial and send to TDC and see what the left dial does, you'll soon get the hang of it.

Well there you are waiting for the target to get to you and you already have speed and AoB and you're in a good firing position and you haven't even seen the target yet.

All you need is range and bearing and you have a very good firing solution for a standard TDC attack. Use the steadymeter to get range and bearing and your all set. With the Position Keeper on the TDC will update all this data for you. The little white X on the attack map is the projected impact point of your torpedo and it should be right on the target icon, if it isn't adjust the data for your firing solution.

With vector analysis all you need is target course and speed and draw the triangles, shoot when the target gets to the lead angle line.

With O'Kane you have all the info you need for a successful attack.

With these last two, I zero the TDC just to make sure I have all the right data in the TDC.

Magic

cbrown1790
10-16-13, 01:38 PM
Magic,

Thank you for your step-by-step instructions!

With that, I found out where I was going wrong.

Even though I put in the data correctly, after you said to check the Aob dial on the left side to confirm that it matches the actual course of the target, I found out that it was off by 30 degrees---which threw all the shots.

I dont understand how/why yet...

But once I adjusted the Aob dial on the right to match the actual course dial on the top left--nothing but hits.

Thank you for your patience.

magic452
10-17-13, 12:47 AM
Glad to be of some help Captain. :salute:

Good luck and good hunting.
Magic

PS Don't sink then all, save a few for me. :D

sharkbit
10-17-13, 08:39 PM
I cannot seem to get into good firing positions i.e. I dont know how to approach to a target---i always seem to end up behind it



This jumped out at me right away. There's some good advice posted above on what to do once you're in position, but I always remember a line from one of my all time favorite fiction books set in the Pacific on a US Fleet boat. It is from "Run Silent, Run Deep" by Edward L. Beach.

"The big problem is to get in front of the target. Anybody ought be able to hit him with a torpedo after that. Getting into attack position is ninety percent of the job."


That is so true. You have to work your way ahead of the target on the surface and submerge on or near his course track, let him come to you, gather your attack data, and shoot those fish into him. If you are ahead of him, everything is so much easier. You can concentrate on gathering and refining your data, worrying about escorts(if any). Let him come to you.

Remember, when you're submerged you are almost stationary and your target has freedom of movement and will easily leave you behind if you are not in the right position. Trying to better your position with speed while submerged will eat up your battery and make noise. If there is an escort up there, noise is bad.

In a nutshell, to get ahead of your target when you are out of position, you have to do the classic end around. You surface at extreme visual range, pour the coals to her and use your superior speed to get around onto the target's projected course. Once there, you wait for him to show up and fine tune your position and data and you should be in a perfect position to shoot when he is in front of your tubes. :arrgh!:

Being radar equipped makes end arounds a snap.

The challenges during end arounds are your target changing course(I've had that happen more than I care to mention :oops:), aircraft forcing you under, escorts making a sweep out from a convoy(that seems to be a bigger issue in the Atlantic. My experience with Jap convoys are limited however), and constricted waters can make things real interesting. But the challenges are what makes the game fun right? :salute:

Hope that helps some.

:)