Did the Japanese have Hedghogs?

[Bubblehead1980]

Just wondering if the Japanese had hedgehog or anything like it? Have yet to read anything but just wondering.

[fireftr18]

I think only we had hedgehogs. I think the japanese did have the depth charge launchers.

[Cowboy40]

I checked one of the best sources for naval weapons of the era that i have in my library.

Campbell, J. (2002). Naval Weapons of World War Two. Annapolis, Maryland: Naval Institute Press.

It appears they didn't have a weapon in inventory like Hedgehog or Mousetrap.

[TorpX]

AFAIK, no hedgehogs or mousetraps, but they had an anti-submarine mortar. I'm not sure what exactly the insperation or idea behind it. It seems to have been rather ineffective.

[Cowboy40]

According to Campbell, they also had ASW shells fired from standard naval guns.....

[Dread Knot]

AFAIK, no hedgehogs or mousetraps, but they had an anti-submarine mortar. I'm not sure what exactly the insperation or idea behind it. It seems to have been rather ineffective.


Yes, the Japanese introduced some ASW mortars. Seems they couldn't fire a full spread the way the hedgehog could and charges were relatively puny and grossly inaccurate.

From the NavWeapons.com site...



No ahead-firing weapons equivalent to the Hedgehog or Squid were developed by the Japanese, although an ASW projectile for many naval guns and a simple mortar for merchant ships were introduced late in the war.

A 15 cm (5.9") ASW mortar was developed for transports and merchant ships. This was in a cradle mounting allowing 360 degree traverse and had recoil and runout cylinders. The projectile weighed about 60 lbs. (27 kg) and could range out to a maximum of 4,500 yards (4,100 m).

The Navy 81 mm mortar was also carried by many escorts, firing standard projectiles.

Finally, a 15 cm (5.9") rocket propelled DC with a range of 3,280 yards (3,000 meters) was developed in April 1945 but this saw no active service.

[Peter Cremer]

It wasn't a depth charge but I have heard that very late in the war they had a Magnetic Anomoly Detector that was just a large, powerful electro magnet that they would lower into the water when they detected a sub. The idea was to latch onto the sub and drag it up to the surface and sink it with gunfire. And that's all I know about it.:hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

It wasn't a depth charge but I have heard that very late in the war they had a Magnetic Anomoly Detector that was just a large, powerful electro magnet that they would lower into the water when they detected a sub. The idea was to latch onto the sub and drag it up to the surface and sink it with gunfire. And that's all I know about it.:hmmm:


Hmmm MAD was just a detection device from what I understand, worked pretty well on the USS Halibut in November 1944. Plane using MAD pinpointed her location, dropped some bombs and called escorts in.

[Admiral Halsey]

Hmmm MAD was just a detection device from what I understand, worked pretty well on the USS Halibut in November 1944. Plane using MAD pinpointed her location, dropped some bombs and called escorts in.

I've heard about a device that Japan used that was like what he described but I don't remember what is was called. Either way I doubt you can replicate it in SH4.

[Cowboy40]

Magnitic Anomaly Device (MAD) was also used by the allies. It was deployed on the USN's PBM series of patrol flying boats. The USN also deployed airborne radar in the search of German subs.

this was taken by Wiki

Magnetic anomaly detectors employed to detect submarines during World War II harnessed the fluxgate magnetometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluxgate_magnetometer), an inexpensive and easy to use technology developed in the 1930s by Victor Vacquier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Vacquier) of Gulf Oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Oil) for finding ore deposits.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detector#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_anomaly_detector#cite_note-lat-3) MAD gear was used by both Japanese and U.S. anti-submarine forces, either towed by ship or mounted in aircraft to detect shallow submerged enemy submarines. The Japanese called the technology jikitanchiki (磁気探知機, "Magnetic Detector"). After the war, the U.S. Navy continued to develop MAD gear as a parallel development with sonar detection technologies.

So it isn't a leap to believe that the Japanese used a similar devices

[Aktungbby]

:Kaleun_Salute:Many thanks for that research and by the by (belatedly, along with Armistead) welcome aboard Cowboy 40:salute: Good historical research is the absolute foundation of better mods and realism in our fervent pastime here at Subsim!

[Dread Knot]

One often overlooked item in the Japanese ASW inventory is the Kabaya Ka-1 gyrocopter. Probably the first instance in history of such a craft being used for this purpose although they were originally developed for artillery spotting. However, there no recorded cases of any of them tangling with a US sub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayaba_Ka-1

http://www.aviastar.org/foto/gallery/japan/kayaba_ka-1_1.jpg

[Rammstein0991]

Nope no hedgehogs, just the standard depth charge racks all destroyers in WWII used afaik

[Dread Knot]

Nope no hedgehogs, just the standard depth charge racks all destroyers in WWII used afaik

They had side launchers for depth charges as well.

Apparently, some of the older Japanese destroyers started the war without DC racks, but they were quickly installed.

[DoomPatrol]

It wasn't a depth charge but I have heard that very late in the war they had a Magnetic Anomoly Detector that was just a large, powerful electro magnet that they would lower into the water when they detected a sub. The idea was to latch onto the sub and drag it up to the surface and sink it with gunfire. And that's all I know about it.:hmmm:

Somewhere I have a book that mentions an incident where the Japanese attempted to use grappling hooks to snare a U.S. sub. They did manage to hook it but were not successful in 'reeling' it in. If I remember correctly there were one or two Kayabas circling above it reporting it's position to the ship crews. They were only able to do this because the sub was at 100' feet or so and the water was very clear. As soon as the sub crew figured out what was going on the game was over and the sub got away.

[Bubblehead1980]

Somewhere I have a book that mentions an incident where the Japanese attempted to use grappling hooks to snare a U.S. sub. They did manage to hook it but were not successful in 'reeling' it in. If I remember correctly there were one or two Kayabas circling above it reporting it's position to the ship crews. They were only able to do this because the sub was at 100' feet or so and the water was very clear. As soon as the sub crew figured out what was going on the game was over and the sub got away.


USS Pollack I think, I remember Captain Ruiz mentioning in his book "The Luck of The DRaw" they tried hook the sub.

[Red Devil]

The hedgehog was a british invention, which was first used on a few destroyers and then on HMS Magpie - one of Capt Walker RN flotilla of hunter/killers. The tactic used was that Walker would follow Magpie and using ASDIC would tell Magpie when to fire. Only contact brought about a detonation.

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/hedgehog.html

[Dread Knot]

Grappling hooks. Pretty medieval.

In reading this thread one wonders what Japan could have done if not for the myopic outlook it took in building it's rather top heavy fleet. The same Japanese naval engineers who developed such superb torpedoes and labored so hard to pack an extra salvo of them into the design of every fleet destroyer might well have devised a more effective depth charge, while staff officers who spent years scheming up midget-submarine tactics could have been better put to use planning efficient convoy-sailing formations and submarine search and destroy doctrine.

Even in MAD where the Japanese were on par with Allied developments, the Japanese lacked the ordinance to duplicate the American solution to a MAD contact, which consisted of installing rear-firing rockets on planes with MAD.

That's not to say the Allies didn't make mistakes in their approach to ASW (going back to using Q-ships come to mind) but they do seem to have been more awake to the looming dangers and came up with a more diversified approach. Of course, the Allies had far more resources to throw at the problem. For Japan to have foreseen the threat and taken measures beforehand would have required prescience beyond the limits of Japan's rather narrow-minded leadership which was mostly obsessed with winning that one "decisive battle."

[Red Devil]

I did read somewhere in an historical book ,that the Japs did not think US subs could go below 250 feet and set charges consequently. It was a while ago, and dont know when they realised their error. I have noted in SH4 1.4 that if I am below 300 I tend to 'get away with it'.

[Dread Knot]

I did read somewhere in an historical book ,that the Japs did not think US subs could go below 250 feet and set charges consequently. It was a while ago, and dont know when they realised their error. I have noted in SH4 1.4 that if I am below 300 I tend to 'get away with it'.


They may have realized their error when a blabbermouth Congressmen from Kentucky named Andrew J. May blurted out at a press conference, that the Japanese were setting their charges too shallow, after a congressional junket to the Pacific Theater . The Japanese apparently read the papers that day, although they often missed other US intelligence leaks. A good reason why all congressional junkets even in the present day should be curtailed.

The Japanese set their charges that shallow, because they used their own submarines test depths as a measure. Surely they had the deepest diving subs? A good indication of some of the closed loop thinking in the IJN.

[DoomPatrol]

And it was referred to ever after as the big one that got away! Your first post since 2005; Welcome belatedly DOOMPATROL and we'll come up with more interesting stuff for you to comment on ...every 8 years or so.:salute:

Thanks for the welcome. This is one of those forums where the members are pretty knowledgeable and have usually already given a good answer to any question. Now if I don't have anything worthwhile to add to a conversation I tend not to say anything so I have a low post count on any forum I'm on. This one especially, I've mostly been a lurker here.

[Admiral Halsey]

They may have realized their error when a blabbermouth Congressmen from Kentucky named Andrew J. May blurted out at a press conference, that the Japanese were setting their charges too shallow, after a congressional junket to the Pacific Theater . The Japanese apparently read the papers that day, although they often missed other US intelligence leaks. A good reason why all congressional junkets even in the present day should be curtailed.

The Japanese set their charges that shallow, because they used their own submarines test depths as a measure. Surely they had the deepest diving subs? A good indication of some of the closed loop thinking in the IJN.

We get it you don't like May at all. I don't like the idiot either but I don't go shouting it out at every opportunity I get.

[TorpX]

For Japan to have foreseen the threat and taken measures beforehand would have required prescience beyond the limits of Japan's rather narrow-minded leadership which was mostly obsessed with winning that one "decisive battle."

Yes, but to be fair, the USN spent a lot of time obsessed with the same idea. However, on December 7, the Japanese administered a harsh lesson in naval tactics, and the US was pretty much forced to consider alternative strategies to the "decisive battle", no longer having the means to fight one.

[irish1958]

Exactly. Losing our battleships forced the Navy to rely on the aircraft carriers and subs and also to be a support force for the island hopping stradigy rather than looking for the "decisive" battle.
The stradigy of Lord Nelson was finally dead.

[Rammstein0991]

They may have realized their error when a blabbermouth Congressmen from Kentucky named Andrew J. May blurted out at a press conference, that the Japanese were setting their charges too shallow, after a congressional junket to the Pacific Theater . The Japanese apparently read the papers that day, although they often missed other US intelligence leaks. A good reason why all congressional junkets even in the present day should be curtailed.

The Japanese set their charges that shallow, because they used their own submarines test depths as a measure. Surely they had the deepest diving subs? A good indication of some of the closed loop thinking in the IJN.

Not just Japan, all nations in WWII were guilty (and to this day are) of thinking "we are the BEST in the world with ((insert technology)) NO-ONE can match our inventions"

[Red Devil]

They may have realized their error when a blabbermouth Congressmen from Kentucky named Andrew J. May blurted out at a press conference, that the Japanese were setting their charges too shallow, after a congressional junket to the Pacific Theater . The Japanese apparently read the papers that day, although they often missed other US intelligence leaks. A good reason why all congressional junkets even in the present day should be curtailed.

The Japanese set their charges that shallow, because they used their own submarines test depths as a measure. Surely they had the deepest diving subs? A good indication of some of the closed loop thinking in the IJN.


Hmm, what he said was treasonable. I hope he got his just desserts because he may well have killed many americans with his stupid mouth.

[Red Devil]

USS Pollack I think, I remember Captain Ruiz mentioning in his book "The Luck of The DRaw" they tried hook the sub.

Skipper, whats that noise?

Japs are whaling again!

[Dread Knot]

Yes, but to be fair, the USN spent a lot of time obsessed with the same idea. However, on December 7, the Japanese administered a harsh lesson in naval tactics, and the US was pretty much forced to consider alternative strategies to the "decisive battle", no longer having the means to fight one.


The concept of the decisive Mahanian battle certainly had it's adherents in the US, Royal and German navies. The Japanese seemed to have singularly reluctant to give it up. As one historian put it, "The concept of one decisive battle remained in their minds until they had no navy left."

Certainly their submarine policy suffered. Japanese I-Boat commanders continued to hoard their torpedoes for use against warships, at a time when Allied seaborne lines of communications world wide were stretched thin, and their German Allies were showing what could be done. The German Naval Attaché in Tokyo practically begged the Japanese to go after the sea lanes between San Francisco and Hawaii with their considerable submarine fleet, but the Japanese wouldn't hear of it.

[Dread Knot]

Hmm, what he said was treasonable. I hope he got his just desserts because he may well have killed many americans with his stupid mouth.

Actually, he ended up in prison for a different charges. War profiteering and bribery.

Yeah, I know I beat up on the guy, but he kinda deserves it. this guy didn't just put submariners in danger, but US Army troops as well by backing a firm which put out defective mortar shells.

[Admiral Halsey]

Actually, he ended up in prison for a different charges. War profiteering and bribery.

Yeah, I know I beat up on the guy, but he kinda deserves it. this guy didn't just put submariners in danger, but US Army troops as well by backing a firm which put out defective mortar shells.

I know. He was a native of my home state after all and I wish he wasn't.

[Dread Knot]

I know. He was a native of my home state after all and I wish he wasn't.

I think every state has slimy politicians it wishes it could disown. :D

[Red Devil]

Thanks Dread, what a scumbag politician eh?

[Admiral Halsey]

I think every state has slimy politicians it wishes it could disown. :D

That reminds me. What state was Nixon born in again?