Seeking an opinion from the community....

[Bubblehead1980]

After much work from others and myself, I have what was quest to get my personal install how I want it to a full on modding project, sort of adding on and updating.Now, plan to share these updates with everyone but undecided on an issue so figured would seek the opinions of those who will probably use said mod.

Depth charges in the game have always bothered me, some detonate very close and do little damage, other times they wipe your boat out or cause catastrophic damage.I have discovered this is because depth charges use hit points, which can vary with each one from 5 to 50 hitpoints, this is random. Most are probably somewhere in the middle but then may have a few all cause on the high scale, which causes the unrealistic" death blows" when charge is not that close.

I already lowered the distance in which the maximum damage is done unless charge is close and it has helped, damage does seem to accumulate and death blows are rare unless a lucky charge lands right on your deck and explodes.

Another issue is te "depth precision" setting which basically allows the AI to set charges at different depths based on players depth.For example , player is at 300 feet and depth precision is set to 5 meters(games uses metric system, much to my annoyance) , then the charges will explode at 300 feet or within 5 meters (above and below) .The problem with this is in RL the japanese did not have that option with their charges.From what I have read, their early charges could be set at 50, 100 , and 200 feet and lacked the punch explosive wise.This was why US subs who had test depths of 250 and 300 feet(could go much deeper if needed) were able to evade them early in the war.Of course the idiot Congressman May blabbed about this, the Japanese modified their design.The new charge had more explosive power and an exploder which could be set at 50, 100, 200, 300, and later,400, 500 feet, these later charges were indeed sub killers.

Unfortunately, I don't see how an get the game to give us that much accuracy in depth charge performance so I tried something out.I set depth precision to 1 meter, figuring not all exploded right at the depth, maybe slightly below or above but all were preset on that depth.Meaning if you are at 300 feet, depth charges will explode there or withing 1 meter.Now, I have tested this and it definitely gives a much more realistic feeling to a depth charge attack but suddenly found the death blows were back because in an effort to simulate the consistent explosive power of each charge, I put the hitpoints at 35 for each other.A few close(not killing close) but close quickly adds up the boats hitpoints, next thing I know hull damage is at 100, game over.

Now, plant o try lowering hit points some, perhaps the effective distance as well, see how it reacts.Can't go too low though or they simply never cause damage and depth charges are mere noise makers that shake the boat.

I suppose the opinion I am seeking is what does everyone think about the depth precision? Fix it as I have or leave it at default ? Anyone have advice? Something I am missing.

I released one version of my depth charge mod last week, it does not address the depth precision issue(well i lowered it from 7 to 5) and made it so charges have to be very close for a killing blow.

The goal is to have more realistic depth charge performance without taking away their ability to actually kill the sub or seriously damage it.Like everything with this game, its finding the balance.

[merc4ulfate]

I think the more depth the more hit point should be added since the added pressure of explosion and sea pressure puts more of a strain on the hull.

[Bubblehead1980]

I think the more depth the more hit point should be added since the added pressure of explosion and sea pressure puts more of a strain on the hull.


Would be nice but not possible in SH 4 as far as I know.

[TorpX]

Another issue is te "depth precision" setting which basically allows the AI to set charges at different depths based on players depth.For example , player is at 300 feet and depth precision is set to 5 meters(games uses metric system, much to my annoyance) , then the charges will explode at 300 feet or within 5 meters ...

I suppose the opinion I am seeking is what does everyone think about the depth precision? Fix it as I have or leave it at default ? Anyone have advice? Something I am missing.


I think you made a mistake lowering the depth precision. If it works as you said, it would be better to increase it. That is, the depth charges would have a greater depth error and not be "aimed" so well. This would be more realistic in my view, and help make the charges less deadly.

IIRC, Duci played around with this, and cautioned that increasing the depth error too much, created the possibility of escorts blowing themselves up.

Something else you might consider, is checking and perhaps lowering the AP value. This might allow the charges to cause damage to the boat, without a likelyhood of a killer blow.

[Bubblehead1980]

I think you made a mistake lowering the depth precision. If it works as you said, it would be better to increase it. That is, the depth charges would have a greater depth error and not be "aimed" so well. This would be more realistic in my view, and help make the charges less deadly.

IIRC, Duci played around with this, and cautioned that increasing the depth error too much, created the possibility of escorts blowing themselves up.

Something else you might consider, is checking and perhaps lowering the AP value. This might allow the charges to cause damage to the boat, without a likelyhood of a killer blow.


I considered that but I changed it because as far as realism is concerned, they could not say oh player is at 300 feet so charges will be set to explode at 290-315 feet and lay a pattern, they would have to set them at 300 feet. Like I said, the later charges could be set to 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500.

Since game wont allow this I figured a substitute would be they can only choose one depth and put the 1 meter error up since sure exploders did not always work at the exact depth, so it adds variety as well.I found this to be more realistic as opposed to them being able to say drop four charges, set two at 300 feet and then then one at 315 and one at 290. I may go back though as I could see it making things a bit easy by simply diving a few feet deeper just before they drop, after stop pinging and have set the depth on the charges.I tested this, I was at 310 feet in a Salmon in October 1944, I ordered 330 feet just as a large pattern of charges(Type C escort) were deployed.All exploded above, pretty close and caused some damage(as they would have) but were still up around 310 feet.More realistic since in RL the charges would have been set at 300 or 400 feet.Now, if could make it where these depths were used and 4 charges deployed for example, two at 300 and two at 400, that would be okay but this smart bomb style depth charges thanks to the depth precision, it can be a bit much.Kind of torn what to do but thanks for your feedback.

I tested this and with the corrected hit points(35 for the later charges) it worked well, I took damage but no killing blows.Also, this forces the player to get below the pattern, which is what subs always tried to do.

I was hesitant to lower the armor level it penetrates from 12.0 since sub armor is set to 12.0, didnt want them to not be effective, suppose will test to see if it can still cause damage with their level dropped from 12.0 to say 11.0 or 11.5.

[TorpX]

I considered that but I changed it because as far as realism is concerned, they could not say oh player is at 300 feet so charges will be set to explode at 290-315 feet and lay a pattern, they would have to set them at 300 feet. Like I said, the later charges could be set to 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500.

I don't think you understand how the math works here. By using a low value for depth precision, you are not limiting enemy depth charge patterns. They AI will always "set" them at your depth. They will explode at your depth, whatever it is. By increasing the value, there will be some error, at least. Neither way is strictly realistic, but if you use a larger error, that will make the ashcans somewhat less effective, which is what you want after all.

About the AP value, I don't know if it would matter that much. It is already pretty low (12.0). However, I think the blast can still total your hull, even if the AP value is less than the hull armor value. It just has to use "brute force", that's all. With only have 35 hit points, I am surprised they work as well as they do. What do the torpedo warheads have, 200? :hmm2:

[JoeCorrado]

Pretty interesting information here in an old research thread about ASW capabilities; if you hadn't seen it:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showpost.php?p=469142&postcount=10


My perspective, as one who "plays" SH for entertainment and relaxation value is that I would prefer to avoid the instant death ending. A little suspense, uncertainty and drama are all enjoyable enough- but for me, it much better to be stalked, harassed and dismantled over time than to be gone in a second with the SH version of a guillotine dropping. I hate that as much as a CTD... :rotfl2:

Looking forward to your mod and looking for the current version now.

[Bubblehead1980]

I don't think you understand how the math works here. By using a low value for depth precision, you are not limiting enemy depth charge patterns. They AI will always "set" them at your depth. They will explode at your depth, whatever it is. By increasing the value, there will be some error, at least. Neither way is strictly realistic, but if you use a larger error, that will make the ashcans somewhat less effective, which is what you want after all.

About the AP value, I don't know if it would matter that much. It is already pretty low (12.0). However, I think the blast can still total your hull, even if the AP value is less than the hull armor value. It just has to use "brute force", that's all. With only have 35 hit points, I am surprised they work as well as they do. What do the torpedo warheads have, 200? :hmm2:



I am aware how it works, was describing how it should work as it did in real life.However, the AI does set the depth based on last sonar contact before deploying, when player enters their "blind spot", when they quit pinging just before deploying the charges.This is time player can change depth, direction etc. With depth precision set to 1.Player has two options, can try to add some depth 20-30 feet and get under the pattern or can just go ahead flank and ride the storm out.Thing is, especially in later war with more skilled escorts, that "lose time" between the last ping and deployment of charges, when AI seems to set the depth on the charges, is short.Player goes too early, may still end up with full pattern at his depth.
True, neither are exact reality but I feel it's closer than having the depth precision set to five or seven, there the escort is basically saying okay we we are going to set them to explode at all these varying depths.I feel them being set to one depth is closer to what the japanese really could do(50, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 feet) and forces player like I said, to ride it out or try to get UNDER the charges, which subs usually did.

Noticed in my testing eventually the AI (depending on skill) gets snowed and will drop at last depth, thinking you are still there.Example, I was in a Gato, they kept dropping at 300 feet, when in blind spot, I went ordered 350 feet, was at 330 when charges blew, shook boat nicely, caused some minor damage to conning tower and deck area, I leveled off at 350, escort came back around, pinging, I decided to try to ride it out before going any deeper(since Gato class boats didnt purposely go deeper unless absolutely forced) and they he dropped at 300-310 feet estimated depth, no damage since I was 40-50 feet below the explosions this time.

Well 35 hit points is a lot when you think about it.Subs max hit points are 300 I saw in the files opened with S3D.Figure a Type A/B escort in mid late war can deploy 16 charges in one attack between the rollers and y guns.35x16=560 hit points.Now, they have to be close, really close to get full hit points and not all will be close enough to even score that many but a large pattern, the points start adding up.35 is still enough to wreck a bulkhead and cause flooding if close, destroy vital equipment.Get two ro three close ones at once, have a problem.

I have been hesitant to reduce the armor level the charges can penetrate as figured would make them ineffective against subs but going to try it out, i reduced it from 12.0 to 11.0, subs armor is 12.0, we will see what it does if anything.

[Bubblehead1980]

Pretty interesting information here in an old research thread about ASW capabilities; if you hadn't seen it:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showpost.php?p=469142&postcount=10


My perspective, as one who "plays" SH for entertainment and relaxation value is that I would prefer to avoid the instant death ending. A little suspense, uncertainty and drama are all enjoyable enough- but for me, it much better to be stalked, harassed and dismantled over time than to be gone in a second with the SH version of a guillotine dropping. I hate that as much as a CTD... :rotfl2:

Looking forward to your mod and looking for the current version now.

Mod is in SH 4 Gameplay section of downloads.There is post in the SH 4 forum with a link to it as well. Yes, the sudden death was always a bit gamey for me.Subs were lost to depth charges it was because they were crippled and sunk beyond crush depth.The Lagarto appears to be one of those rare cases where a lucky depth charge landed right near the hull and blew a hole in it, she sank to the shallow bottom of Gulf of Siam where she rests today.Why didnt the crew make it out? well 350 or so feet down, flooding was probably instant, gas etc likely. The Tang went down from torpedo hit, Only a few made it out.

I just about have it worked out where death blows are highly unlikely yet charges are still a real threat.Working on making the sub flood like in Travellers mod where it sinks from surface if flooded.Trying to find what files controls pump speed for pumping water out, its way too slow.A flaw in the game is inability to compensate for flooding.

[Webster]

sounds like great work going on here :up:

[Fish40]

Sounds like a needed mod. The more realism the better. Gonna try with RFB, and keep fingers crossed. Good work Bubble!

[Bubblehead1980]

Sounds like a needed mod. The more realism the better. Gonna try with RFB, and keep fingers crossed. Good work Bubble!


Thanks, will probably release an improved version later in the week or next week, have some more testing to do.Well if running RSRD with RFB, I think it will work as file structure used is RSRD.Plus I think RSRD is an absolute must with RFB because RFB's campaign is stock lol.

[JoeCorrado]

Loaded up your first version. On patrol in South China Sea area. In fairly shallow water of about 120 feet when I spotted a Jap Convoy which I was obliged to attack. Was detected by lead as he passed me at about 400 feet destroyer (I was at all stop, silent running at just shy of 100 feet - for crying out loud) he immediately began a depth charge run- and two of his buddies joined in.

The lead destroyer was fairly accurate with his charges going of on either side of me and about just below. Immediately received 2 percent hull damage an AA gun destroyed. These guys stayed over me for over an hour making runs that rocked my boat but caused little additional damage. They were persistent though and I thought they would never give up. With so little room under my keel- it was cat and mouse the whole time.

I continued to move at slow speed between the attacks, varying my depth, direction and speed as each salvo was dropped. Quite enjoyable as they had my scent and stuck to me for the longest time. The lead destroyer must have been the best of the lot since his attacks seemed the most accurate.

Ended up at 7 percent hull damage, minor leak in control room, two wounded sailors in forward torpedo room and damaged batteries (never would charge above 98%) by the time they gave up.

Quite an enjoyable contact- appeared to have achieved what you were hoping for. I was happy to have lived and happier that I wasn't awarded the death scene. I hate shallow waters!

Using GFO Mod with a range of smaller mods.

[Bubblehead1980]

Loaded up your first version. On patrol in South China Sea area. In fairly shallow water of about 120 feet when I spotted a Jap Convoy which I was obliged to attack. Was detected by lead as he passed me at about 400 feet destroyer (I was at all stop, silent running at just shy of 100 feet - for crying out loud) he immediately began a depth charge run- and two of his buddies joined in.

The lead destroyer was fairly accurate with his charges going of on either side of me and about just below. Immediately received 2 percent hull damage an AA gun destroyed. These guys stayed over me for over an hour making runs that rocked my boat but caused little additional damage. They were persistent though and I thought they would never give up. With so little room under my keel- it was cat and mouse the whole time.

I continued to move at slow speed between the attacks, varying my depth, direction and speed as each salvo was dropped. Quite enjoyable as they had my scent and stuck to me for the longest time. The lead destroyer must have been the best of the lot since his attacks seemed the most accurate.

Ended up at 7 percent hull damage, minor leak in control room, two wounded sailors in forward torpedo room and damaged batteries (never would charge above 98%) by the time they gave up.

Quite an enjoyable contact- appeared to have achieved what you were hoping for. I was happy to have lived and happier that I wasn't awarded the death scene. I hate shallow waters!

Using GFO Mod with a range of smaller mods.

Nice, without a direct hit that sounds about right so got the desired effect for most part, Barb and many others made submerged attacks in very shallow waters, took dpeth charghes and survived with damage.Fact is, hitting a sub with a "golden" depth charge to get the killing blow was pretty much luck that considering all the attacks, rarely occurred.I actually fell victim to my own mod with 200 feet of water in August 44 in East China Sea, survived about 4 hours worth of attacks but one charge got lucky and landed right on the deck judging by the noise etc(it was night, could not see with external cam under water, destroyed ship but it will happen.I think I may need to raise the sub's hit points in new version since i have the charges hit points set at one rate for consistency, but hate to do as subs are already kind of strong(can survive a torpedo hit for example) . What month/year was your attack in? So you are happy with the mod per last attack? Not perfect but think without it, you would have lost the boat?

Also, download the SH4 AI fix from the Utilities section of downloads.This will make it so escorts are not always using active sonar as they are from default, even though cant always hear the ping.Basically, this makes it so they are only listening until alerted, then they go active.After stop searching, they stop being active.This keeps them from always finding you if are close but running silent, enables you to slip through the escort screen at times as subs were often able to do in real life.Of course have to watch your noise because can still hear you,depend on many variables such as crew skill, weather, distance, your speed, his speed etc. Of course you were in very shallow waters so that changes so much as far as detection. With this mod, I can go to 300 feet in calm seas and running at 100 rpm's or less(use the gauge by steersman in conning tower to see RPM's) and slip under the escort.Although, to be safe, I try to stay 800-1000 yards away at 50-60 rpm's and never directly under them, try slip in just ahead or behind.

[JoeCorrado]

Nice, without a direct hit that sounds about right so got the desired effect for most part, Barb and many others made submerged attacks in very shallow waters, took dpeth charghes and survived with damage.Fact is, hitting a sub with a "golden" depth charge to get the killing blow was pretty much luck that considering all the attacks, rarely occurred.I actually fell victim to my own mod with 200 feet of water in August 44 in East China Sea, survived about 4 hours worth of attacks but one charge got lucky and landed right on the deck judging by the noise etc(it was night, could not see with external cam under water, destroyed ship but it will happen.I think I may need to raise the sub's hit points in new version since i have the charges hit points set at one rate for consistency, but hate to do as subs are already kind of strong(can survive a torpedo hit for example) . What month/year was your attack in? So you are happy with the mod per last attack? Not perfect but think without it, you would have lost the boat?


It was still fairly early in the war May 23, 1942 about 100 miles East, North East of Singapore. Convoy had a total of four escorts that I could positively identify- all of the Fubuki class. Like I said, the lead escort must have had a fairly high rating because he was clearly the most dangerous of them all- he eventually ran out of charges. I was quite happy about that. I constantly held my breath with each of his runs because he was pretty close to being dead on. Two of his buddies were in on the action, but their accuracy was just a tad off missing each pass by at least my boat's width nearly every time.

I guess that I was just too close in my approach position, even at full stop, silent running and 100 feet deep- he wasn't fooled and was obviously quite angry with me when I was detected. I was quite surprised and believing he was just turning to listen as a normal tactic- I held position with no evasive maneuvers till he actually dropped charges on top of me. A rude awakening.

I believe that I would have had much more serious damage especially from that first depth charge run which was entirely too close for comfort! It is always a frustrating thing when you are sent to your maker on the first pass with no chance to even make an attempt at evasion as would have been the case in this scenario. He was on me like a bee on honey! Getting injured crew and a leaking command room was quite enough to get my full attention! And of course, the beating didn't end there!

I will definitely download and install AI Fix, and will also make note of my RPM's and distances. Your MOD is looking good based on my own experience-

[Bubblehead1980]

It was still fairly early in the war May 23, 1942 about 100 miles East, North East of Singapore. Convoy had a total of four escorts that I could positively identify- all of the Fubuki class. Like I said, the lead escort must have had a fairly high rating because he was clearly the most dangerous of them all- he eventually ran out of charges. I was quite happy about that. I constantly held my breath with each of his runs because he was pretty close to being dead on. Two of his buddies were in on the action, but their accuracy was just a tad off missing each pass by at least my boat's width nearly every time.

I guess that I was just too close in my approach position, even at full stop, silent running and 100 feet deep- he wasn't fooled and was obviously quite angry with me when I was detected. I was quite surprised and believing he was just turning to listen as a normal tactic- I held position with no evasive maneuvers till he actually dropped charges on top of me. A rude awakening.

I believe that I would have had much more serious damage especially from that first depth charge run which was entirely too close for comfort! It is always a frustrating thing when you are sent to your maker on the first pass with no chance to even make an attempt at evasion as would have been the case in this scenario. He was on me like a bee on honey! Getting injured crew and a leaking command room was quite enough to get my full attention! And of course, the beating didn't end there!

I will definitely download and install AI Fix, and will also make note of my RPM's and distances. Your MOD is looking good based on my own experience-

Ah yes, early war.Well the charges have less power in early war , this was done so in the mod to reflect the smaller amount of explosives the early war charges the japanese used.Glad you like the mod.Later war charges carry more of a punch but are much more likely to survive them if forced down in shallow waters.