Attempted murder trial. Unusual defense.

[mako88sb]

Just wondering if this guys defense has been used before. Shortly before the incident, his ex-wife told him she was going to take him for everything he was worth. It quickly got ugly from there with the victim being chased, shot at and hit twice before neighbors intervened. The accused insists he only had blanks in his .44 magnum and that he wasn't aiming at the victim. He was just trying to scare her so he shouldn't be accused of attempted murder. I can't believe this guy would think anybody is going to buy that load of crap but I suppose stranger things have happened.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/09/17/calgary-man-who-shot-ex-wife-had-no-deadly-intent-argues-his-lawyer

[AndyJWest]

If you are caught red-handed firing a gun at someone, a 'load of crap' defence may be the only one going...

[Stealhead]

Might as well just plead guilty if that is the best you can come up with.

[Bubblehead1980]

All depends on his lawyer, if he has a trial lawyer who is good at BS and knows how to pick a jury, he could get a hung jury, not guilty even.Only takes one. Also, sounds like he was overcharged as prosecutors tend to do.

[Spiced_Rum]

It quickly got ugly from there with the victim being chased, shot at and hit twice before neighbors stopped intervened. The accused insists he only had blanks in his .44 magnum and that he wasn't aiming at the victim. He was just trying to scare her so he shouldn't be accused of attempted murder.

If the victim was scared then he has a point. He could try the 'NRA defence', just needs to prove that he was normally a good shot down at the range and could have hit a moving target if he wanted to which could counter the attempted murder angle.

[Platapus]

If the victim was scared then he has a point. He could try the 'NRA defence', just needs to prove that he was normally a good shot down at the range and could have hit a moving target if he wanted to which could counter the attempted murder angle.

I think that would be a very hard defense to support.

I think all the prosecution needs to do is bring up the statistics of the number of people who have been killed, maimed, or injured by "blank ammunition" and the guy is going to go away for a while.

How would the defense prove that this guy was not aiming at the woman? I think there is a reasonable presumption that if someone shoots a gun at someone in anger, they intend to hit them, regardless of their actual ability to aim.

Not sure if the second degree murder charge will stick, but it sounds reasonable as an initial charge.

Does anyone know what the projectile range of a .44 mag blank round is?

We could ask Jon-Erik Hexum. :nope:

[August]

Guess she really will take him for all he's worth... :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Does anyone know what the projectile range of a .44 mag blank round is?

We could ask Jon-Erik Hexum. :nope:
Good one. I still remember that.

[Jimbuna]

He's more chance of winning his state lottery (if they have one) six months in a row than getting off with that :)

[Bubblehead1980]

I think that would be a very hard defense to support.

I think all the prosecution needs to do is bring up the statistics of the number of people who have been killed, maimed, or injured by "blank ammunition" and the guy is going to go away for a while.

How would the defense prove that this guy was not aiming at the woman? I think there is a reasonable presumption that if someone shoots a gun at someone in anger, they intend to hit them, regardless of their actual ability to aim.

Not sure if the second degree murder charge will stick, but it sounds reasonable as an initial charge.

Does anyone know what the projectile range of a .44 mag blank round is?

We could ask Jon-Erik Hexum. :nope:

Could argue intent, I have seen it work in attempted murder cases.Like I said, takes one juror to tank the case.Honestly, he should be charged with Aggravated Assault or whatever the equivalent charge is there, much stronger case than attempted murder.That is an attitude that needs to change among prosecutors, overcharging people is why Casey Anthony is free.Zimmerman is free because of this.While he should not have been charged at all, if they had went for a lesser charge, doubt he would he would have gotten a not guilty.

[Platapus]

"Your honor, I hold a black belt in several martial arts. If I truly intended to beat my girlfriend to death, she would be dead. But, as you can see, she is still alive. Therefore, I think that the attempted murder charge should be dropped and a simple assault charge put in its place. Deal?"

Judge: :hmmm::nope:

[Bubblehead1980]

[QUOTE=Platapus;2117037]"Your honor, I hold a black belt in several martial arts. If I truly intended to beat my girlfriend to death, she would be dead. But, as you can see, she is still alive. Therefore, I think that the attempted murder charge should be dropped and a simple assault charge put in its place. Deal?"

Judge: :hmmm::nope:[/QUOTE

I know how it sounds, but it has worked and with right jury in the box and attorney selling it, could see it work.Intent is a lot of the equation.Honestly, the man on trial knew he had blanks and could not kill her, he did not intend to kill her nor could he, he did break the law by aiming the weapon and discharging it, that is an assault and much more airtight case. Honestly, this akin to me striking you with a plastic bat in the head and being charged with attempted murder. People overreact when guns are involved.

For the fact the state is abusing it's poweer with an overzealous prosecution, I hope he is found not guilty or gets a hung jury.

[Platapus]

You are absolutely right. It will be up to the jury and one really can't predict what juries will or won't do.

This crime took place in Canada. What are the handgun laws in Canada? I thought that it was rare that anyone could own handguns up there.

[Schroeder]

Does anyone know what the projectile range of a .44 mag blank round is?

I thought the idea of a blank was that it doesn't have a projectile.:doh:

[Jimbuna]

A bit like a blank cheque....no value.

[Stealhead]

I thought the idea of a blank was that it doesn't have a projectile.:doh:


They still have a sabot that holds in the powder made often of plastic at close range the bits of the sabot can be deadly.

[Wolferz]

His ex won't be getting a dime. But, his lawyer will get everything he has to his name.:nope:
I think he'd have been better off using live rounds and just doing the deed.

[vienna]

For those of you who believe this case will result in a "slam dunk" conviction, I refer you to the case of Dan White who, in 1978, murdered two people, the Mayor and a County Supervisor, in the City Hall in San Francisco during business hours. He shot the Mayor four times, once each in the shoulder and chest and then twice in the head. He then reloaded, walked across to the other side of City Hall and shot a County Supervisor five times, the last two shots with the gun barrel touching the Supervisor's head. He had additionally smuggled the gun into City Hall, avoiding the metal detectors at the entrances, by climbing through a lower floor window of the City Hall. You would think if someone armed themselves with a gun, travelled across town to a specific location, entered that location by means of stealth, methodically and cooly shot to death two people, and then left the crime scene, would be a textbook definition of "premeditation". However, his attorneys argued White was acting under diminished capacity (akin to the idea of 'temporary insanity') and White was only found guilty of voluntary manslaughter by a jury. The upshot of the case was the voters of California overwhelmingly voted to abolish "diminished capacity" as a defense in the state's courts...

As someone else has pointed out, the jury will make the final decision, but a crafty defense attorney can make the jury view his client not as a perpetrator, but as a "victim": "Ladies and gentleman of the jury, my client was acting under the duress of psychological conditions which made him unaware of the implications of his actions. My client is the real victim here; he suffered under the strains of his afflictions"... and blah, blah, woof, woof...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_White

http://murderpedia.org/male.W/w/white-daniel-james.htm




<O>

[Platapus]

It is a sad commentary on our judicial system when both sides (prosecution and defense) are trying to manipulate the jury instead of just using the facts.

I wonder in the inquisitorial system could ever work in this country? The adversarial system seems to have drifted away from its original intent.

[Bubblehead1980]

It is a sad commentary on our judicial system when both sides (prosecution and defense) are trying to manipulate the jury instead of just using the facts.

I wonder in the inquisitorial system could ever work in this country? The adversarial system seems to have drifted away from its original intent.


That can be blamed squarely on the government ie the prosecution or the persecution as I like to call them.Due to the prosecutors office being a political operation, politics comes into play, esp in the US.Instead of seeking the truth, the boss ie the district/state attorney makes decisions based on politics, the lower levels have no real discretion. Prime example of this is the Case Anthony case.They knew they had no real case but the sensed blood in the water, overcharged her, went for the throat, figuring public emotions would convict her and they lost the case because they slapped a first degree murder charge on her without any real evidence, then tried to use junk science lol.This happens EVERYDAY even the low profile cases as well.

Another factor is the quality of people attracted to that job.I am sorry, but no attorney worth a damn will stay in a government job for long if they can make more money in private sector.The thing is, many are the talentless hacks and dregs of the legal profession, they are there because its a salary and benefits and requires no real talent or ambition to do the job.They are stooges for the government, nothing more.

Typically, they are self righteous, yes men and women who can and do not think for themselves.I encountered them when I worked at a firm and see the types in class who can't wait to be prosecutors and I often remind them they will be nothing more than a stooge for the government.The look on their face, like that of child who realized their hero was in fact not that great, is priceless.

The defense is there to protect the client's rights and keep the government off their back.The outrageous defenses that come out at times can be blamed on the prosecutions outrageous charges, every action there is an equal reaction.

In a perfect world, prosecutors would play by the rules, defense would ensure client's rights are upheld and everyone would go home happy but what are people to do when the government comes down on them? Use the system to your full advantage to get out of it.

[Platapus]

I would agree.

Just like it could be said cynically that a jury is made up of 12 people who are too dumb to come up with a reason to get out of jury duty, it could also be said that a Prosecutor is an attorney not good enough to be hired by a defense law firm. :)

One of the problems is that prosecutors are evaluated on their conviction rate, not the rate in which the guilty party is brought to justice. A prosecutor wants any conviction of anyone.

When it becomes accepted that most cases end on a plea bargain, it becomes easier for the prosecutor to overcharge, intimidate witnesses, and generally lie in order to manipulate the defendant into accepting a plea bargain. If the defendant is poor and can't afford an equally unethical lawyer, all the better for the conviction record of the prosecutor.

Being that prosecutors are agents of the government and are representing the "people" (what ever that means these days), they have to be held to a higher standard and actually suffer consequences for their misconduct.

Definition of Perjury: When someone, other than a lawyer, lies in court.

How often to we read about cases where the prosecution withheld evidence, suppressed witnesses, and flat out lied to the jury? Too many times. But I seldom read about prosecutors being indicted. The worst that seems to happen is that they are asked to resign so they can then write a book. :nope:

If a defense attorney pulls a fast one, a guilty person may go free. If a prosecutor pulls a fast one, an innocent person may go to prison.

Which is the greatest risk to our society?

Well, speaking as a law abiding citizen, I am much more afraid of an unethical prosecutor. Hence, as a law abiding citizen, I expect the government to hold prosecutors accountable. With no, or little, accountability, what is governing a prosecutor's actions?

[Webster]

if they were blanks then the casings would still show crimping so that would be very easy to confirm or dismiss very easy and they don't need the slugs to prove it but you would think they should still be able to find one if he shot "at" her so shooting in the air to scare her is plausible

[Wolferz]

And they found out during discovery phase that it was actually a starters pistol that will fire blanks only.

I was only throwing firecrackers at her your honor.:O:

BTW, many district attorneys are elected not assigned. So they do have something to prove in their job performance in order to get re-elected. The number one reason for a laundry list of trumped up charges for any crime. It gives them a better chance of getting a conviction.

[Bubblehead1980]

And they found out during discovery phase that it was actually a starters pistol that will fire blanks only.

I was only throwing firecrackers at her your honor.:O:

BTW, many district attorneys are elected not assigned. So they do have something to prove in their job performance in order to get re-elected. The number one reason for a laundry list of trumped up charges for any crime. It gives them a better chance of getting a conviction.

Yes, the actual DA is elected, and has his ADA's perform the dirty work.Back home in FL they are called State Attorneys and Assistant State Attorneys, only in D.C. is the a more wretched group of scum.

I wrote a position paper on a civilian oversight panel for the the prosecutor's office, much like some rogue police departments now have because they basically answer to themselves.

[August]

I would agree.

Just like it could be said cynically that a jury is made up of 12 people who are too dumb to come up with a reason to get out of jury duty, it could also be said that a Prosecutor is an attorney not good enough to be hired by a defense law firm. :)

One of the problems is that prosecutors are evaluated on their conviction rate, not the rate in which the guilty party is brought to justice. A prosecutor wants any conviction of anyone.

When it becomes accepted that most cases end on a plea bargain, it becomes easier for the prosecutor to overcharge, intimidate witnesses, and generally lie in order to manipulate the defendant into accepting a plea bargain. If the defendant is poor and can't afford an equally unethical lawyer, all the better for the conviction record of the prosecutor.

Being that prosecutors are agents of the government and are representing the "people" (what ever that means these days), they have to be held to a higher standard and actually suffer consequences for their misconduct.

Definition of Perjury: When someone, other than a lawyer, lies in court.

How often to we read about cases where the prosecution withheld evidence, suppressed witnesses, and flat out lied to the jury? Too many times. But I seldom read about prosecutors being indicted. The worst that seems to happen is that they are asked to resign so they can then write a book. :nope:

If a defense attorney pulls a fast one, a guilty person may go free. If a prosecutor pulls a fast one, an innocent person may go to prison.

Which is the greatest risk to our society?

Well, speaking as a law abiding citizen, I am much more afraid of an unethical prosecutor. Hence, as a law abiding citizen, I expect the government to hold prosecutors accountable. With no, or little, accountability, what is governing a prosecutor's actions?

Damn well said Platapus. :salute:

[Platapus]

Damn well said Platapus. :salute:

Every once in a while I get one right. :D

[mako88sb]

For the ones more savvy about how the law works then me, congratulations. It was in our paper a couple days ago that the Judge agreed that the accused was only trying to scare his ex-wife. Odd, but I can't find a link for that particular piece of news. He was convicted of breaking into her house and shooting her:

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/09/27/crown-seeking-seven-year-sentence-for-nihad-ibrahim-convicted-of-breaking-into-ex-wifes-home-then-shooting-her

The one bit that really confuses me is that the doctors were uncertain about the nature of her wounds as they didn't fit the pattern of the usual gunshot. Thus the case for blanks being used seems possible, What I can't understand is surely when the guy was arrested and his gun confiscated, they would of had whatever ammo was in it at the time. Unless he removed and discarded them somehow. If he managed that, it seems more then likely to me that there was real bullets in that gun or why would he bother? Anyway, I think he should be de-ported back to Iraq once his jail time is served.

[Bubblehead1980]

For the ones more savvy about how the law works then me, congratulations. It was in our paper a couple days ago that the Judge agreed that the accused was only trying to scare his ex-wife. Odd, but I can't find a link for that particular piece of news. He was convicted of breaking into her house and shooting her:

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/09/27/crown-seeking-seven-year-sentence-for-nihad-ibrahim-convicted-of-breaking-into-ex-wifes-home-then-shooting-her

The one bit that really confuses me is that the doctors were uncertain about the nature of her wounds as they didn't fit the pattern of the usual gunshot. Thus the case for blanks being used seems possible, What I can't understand is surely when the guy was arrested and his gun confiscated, they would of had whatever ammo was in it at the time. Unless he removed and discarded them somehow. If he managed that, it seems more then likely to me that there was real bullets in that gun or why would he bother? Anyway, I think he should be de-ported back to Iraq once his jail time is served.

Thanks:rock: Glad to see he did not get convicted on the attempted murder charge, it would have been a miscarriage of justice.Now, hopefully he will get out in reasonable time, spending 11 months in jail awaiting trial is a travesty.