Shooters at Washington Navy Yard

[Tchocky]

Just heard this on the radio. Awful.

Hope it doesn't get any worse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/police-search-for-active-shooter-on-grounds-of-washington-navy-yard-in-southeast-dc/2013/09/16/b1d72b9a-1ecb-11e3-b7d1-7153ad47b549_story.html

[Jimbuna]

Bad news indeed...the BBC link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24111481

[donna52522]

The tv is reporting 2 shooters are "down" and there is multiple deaths.

[Tchocky]

Hearing four shooters, one with a long gun. Three down, one contained but not in custody

[Tchocky]

Two suspects at large it seems. White male and black male. Fifty ish. Military style clothing

[eddie]

Well the shooter-Aaron Alexis, 34, originally of Fort Worth, Texas is dead thankfully!! They are looking for a second gunman, but they are not sure if there is one. Too many conflicting reports to know for sure.

[Oberon]

Indeed, not a lot of information coming out from the authorities, but that's to be expected. Frustrating for rolling news, but that's how it goes.

RIP to those lost in this attack.

[Ducimus]

The smoke hasn't even dissipated, nor the causes known yet and our dear leader is already framing the situation to suit his political agenda. *sigh*

I'd say more, but then i'd be as bad as BO. This is eventually going to turn into another political ****storm. (Syria is officially yesterdays news.) There will be time enough to rehash tired arguments.

[Tchocky]

White House spokesman confirmed that they will be pushing for "aggressive gun control legislation" before the Congressional recess. States a need to "settle this once and for all".

Live press conference in Sen. Feinstein's office in five minutes.




:roll:

[Mr Quatro]

Lot of confusion out there, but so far 12 confirmed dead including the shooter. I couldn't believe the scrolls on CNN from the white house to prevent this thing from happening again.

How many mad angry drivers have plowed into crowds this year alone?

You can't stop the angry from gaining on society no matter who they are or what they drive or what kind of weapons they process.

[Armistead]

Terrible news!

Prayers and best wishes for those in surgery and their recovery.

[Ducimus]

Well the shooter-Aaron Alexis, 34, originally of Fort Worth, Texas is dead thankfully!!

Yup, this is starting to make it's rounds now. Standby for the plethora of proxy glorification of the gunman by a literal expose of news stories about him for the next week or three, examining the scumbag in detail. In no time at all, he'll be a household name for a little while, will get his 15 minutes of fame, and will be remembered in crime reference lists for years to come.

[Madox58]

Another Richard bites the dust.

[Jimbuna]

Another Richard bites the dust.

Rgr that.

[Oberon]

In before Alec Jones. :O:

EDIT: As reliable as ever - http://www.salon.com/2013/09/16/navy_yard_shooting_as_false_flag_alex_jones_is_on_ it/singleton/

[Father Goose]

Deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the fallen.

Some if not all the lives could have been saved today if the military would be allowed to carry firearms on a military base. It sickens me to listen to very capable military personnel tell how they had to run and hide from the shooter. Insane policy started during the Clinton administration that needs to be abolished. :know:

[Armistead]

Another failure of our system to be blamed on guns. How this guy ever passed a BG check with his history, prior gun issue crimes discharging him from the navy is beyond me.

[August]

NBC is reporting that the killer began the attack with a legally purchased shotgun and apparently picked up the pistol and AR/M4 from his victims.


When it was over, the suspected gunman lay dead amid an armload of weapons. Sources told News4 that surveillance footage showed that he began his attack with a shotgun, but was found with a 9mm pistol and an AR-15 assault rifle. NBC News correspondent Pete Williams is reporting Alexis purchased a shotgun in Lorton, Va. during the past week or so.


http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Confirmed-Shooter-at-Navy-Yard-One-Person-Shot-223897891.html

[Stealhead]

Deepest sympathies to the families and friends of the fallen.

Some if not all the lives could have been saved today if the military would be allowed to carry firearms on a military base. It sickens me to listen to very capable military personnel tell how they had to run and hide from the shooter. Insane policy started during the Clinton administration that needs to be abolished. :know:


You are being feed incorrect information MPs and sentries are always armed on base.While off duty you are not allowed to carry a personal firearm and if you live in the dorms you must store your weapon in an armory at least that was the reg in the USAF.

The ones whose duty it is to defend the base are armed to the teeth.It just depends on the location and threat.The only place really easy to hit is the front gate of a typical base for an outsider.That place in D.C. was more open to the public at least the front area.The Hassan guy he went to the medical facilitates where typically there are few MPs present and never any sentries with a long gun.There was a shooting at Fort Bragg some years back in that case the shooter hid in a wooded area and shot two or three Rangers(the shooter was also one) this was in a live fire area so he must have wished death because he got shot dead by other Rangers.

I know of an incident in Germany where a USAF Security Forces member pulled her M9 on another woman that she seemed to have issue with(cat fight) this was in the armory at a shift change with several dozen locked and loaded firearms right their to cap her she refused to put her gun down so they shot her in the shoulder I know about that because I was at the shift change lucky I was outside at the time. A nut is nut is a nut guns or no guns it changes nothing they will do what ever nefarious plan they have come hell or high water and the fact that lethal force will be used against them has no bearing after all a nut is a nut.

Trust me having been in the USAF if they had allowed us to have guns in the dorms people wold have gotten into fights and shot each other.You do not even want to now what I found during "health and wellness" inspections illegal drugs,illegal firearms(as in federally banned),I could go on and on.

That restriction on private firearms has been around before Clinton I know this because It was not a new policy when I first enlisted in 1994.I know this because none of the hard core conservatives in any of my units even complained about the regulation and they would have if Clinton had been the one to make it a regulation.I knew guys that had been in since the mid 1970's that where gun owners and the policy was not new to them.

I will have to ask my father he was in Vietnam and I am almost 100% certain that stateside and in Germany and Japan you could not carry your privately owned weapons on base and that was when Clinton was still in school.

[Skybird]

It makes me chuckle when I see Bundeswehr installations and garrson over here and in my hometown being guarded - not be Bundeswehr guards, but private guard services.

Sends a very strong, deterring message to future enemies: an army that needs to be protected by foreign private services and cant protect its own grounds. :haha:

Bad incident, that navy shooting. Curious to learn about the why.

[Ducimus]

In before Alec Jones. :O:

EDIT: As reliable as ever - http://www.salon.com/2013/09/16/navy_yard_shooting_as_false_flag_alex_jones_is_on_ it/singleton/

That guy.... I swear. I wonder if he really believes all the crap he spews, or just does it as a "shock jock" for the ratings?

Another failure of our system to be blamed on guns. How this guy ever passed a BG check with his history, prior gun issue crimes discharging him from the navy is beyond me.

Of course it is. Did you see Obama's address yesterday? All 2 minutes of it? He already started framing the tragedy to suit how he wants to package it later for his own agenda. You have to look at his choice of words, his intent is obvious.

NBC is reporting that the killer began the attack with a legally purchased shotgun and apparently picked up the pistol and AR/M4 from his victims.


Any confirmation on that? I've never shot an M4, does it have a 3 round burst like the M16A2? Several witnesses said they heard a "pop,pop,pop". That sounds like a 3 round burst to me. From my experience, i think most of the time, a shooter with an AR-15 will either do "mag dump", a steady string of aimed fire, or a single or double tap shot. A consistant firing of 3 shots however, strikes me as a rifle with a 3 round burst. Of course all of this is irrelevant because even if the guy picked up a real assault rifle off a dead guard, the media is going to spin it as an AR15 no matter what. Either by agenda or by ignorance.

You are being feed incorrect information MPs and sentries are always armed on base.While off duty you are not allowed to carry a personal firearm and if you live in the dorms you must store your weapon in an armory at least that was the reg in the USAF.

Yup. If bases of other branch's follow the same as what the USAF does, then the only people armed on a base are the Security Police/Military Police. Personal firearms are a big no-no. That said, getting one on base IS NOT HARD. I'm not sure what this naval yard setup is, but on an Air Base, if you have a base sticker on your car, they just wave you through. I guess the assumption is if you have a base sticker, you've already been cleared. As an aside, the front gate guard seems like they are usually more concerned with trying to look professional and cool to the public then anything else.

Anyway, getting a weapon on base isn't hard. I bought a shotgun off my immediate supervisor as an A1C, on base. I was supposed to check it into the armory. I never did. I wanted to go bird hunting whenever i wanted to off duty, and I didn't want to hassle of dealing with the SP's, so I just kept it in my truck behind the bench seat. Looking back, that was pretty stupid on my part. Had i been caught with it there, probably would have been a career ender.

The ones whose duty it is to defend the base are armed to the teeth.It just depends on the location and threat.The only place really easy to hit is the front gate of a typical base for an outsider.

Not only are they armed to the teeth, they are EAGER. Probably because they're so freaking bored. I used to call them "rivet counters" because it seemed like all they did was stand around with nothing to do but count rivets on aircraft. From my memory, SP's on an AF base can be found in three places. Any gate, the flight line watching that red line like a hawk, or napping in crown vic someplace.

[Skybird]

Traumatized by witnessing 9/11 at close range, being diagnosed with very serious PTS syndrome - makes a whole lot of sense when considering the ambivalence between a quest for peace of mind (praying in Buddhist temples and even visiting Thailand to learn about Buddhism), and the repeated outburst of pretty massive displays of aggression and violence.

By today'S status it looks like a lost soul that was pushed off life's ordinary tracks by fate striking in 2011 and desperately wanted to find an escape from the demons entering him back then.

A run that he finally lost.

[August]

Any confirmation on that? I've never shot an M4, does it have a 3 round burst like the M16A2? Several witnesses said they heard a "pop,pop,pop". That sounds like a 3 round burst to me. From my experience, i think most of the time, a shooter with an AR-15 will either do "mag dump", a steady string of aimed fire, or a single or double tap shot. A consistant firing of 3 shots however, strikes me as a rifle with a 3 round burst. Of course all of this is irrelevant because even if the guy picked up a real assault rifle off a dead guard, the media is going to spin it as an AR15 no matter what. Either by agenda or by ignorance.

Time is reporting it as well:

http://swampland.time.com/2013/09/17/the-navy-yards-lone-gunman/

Witnesses and police said Alexis, clad in black, apparently used a shotgun to shoot a security guard to gain entry into Building 197. He took the guard’s pistol, and then made his way to the building’s fourth floor, also armed with an AR-15 he may have taken from a second police officer he shot.M4's are three round burst. Their lower receiver is basically no different than the M16's.

[Ducimus]

Traumatized by witnessing 9/11 at close range, being diagnosed with very serious PTS syndrome - makes a whole lot of sense when considering the ambivalence between a quest for peace of mind (praying in Buddhist temples and even visiting Thailand to learn about Buddhism), and the repeated outburst of pretty massive displays of aggression and violence.

By today'S status it looks like a lost soul that was pushed off life's ordinary tracks by fate striking in 2011 and desperately wanted to find an escape from the demons entering him back then.

A run that he finally lost.


Skybird, come on man, if your gonna post info, give a supporting link! :O:



In the time honored media tradition of proxy glorfication and giving of 15 minutes of fame to down and out nutjobs looking to be noticed, CNN is our Johnny-on-the-spot.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/navy-yard-suspects/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I think the why's are important. The who's are what the media should be avoiding. I don't want to know this mans name. I just want to know why he did it.

Tidbits from this article that are relevant:

But a friend said (HE ) was locked in a dispute over money with the company that contracted him to work for the Navy.

Ok, he's Disgruntled.


Investigators also learned that ( HE ) had recently made contact with two Veterans Administration hospitals for apparent psychological issues, law enforcement sources told CNN on Tuesday.

And, he has mental health issues, and tried to get help.

drove onto the installation and parked before walking a short distance to Building 197.

Base sticker I wager, or at most, just flashed a badge.

There were no indications that (HE) had any ideological differences with the Navy or any disagreements with anyone at the Navy Yard, the U.S. law enforcement official said.

Hmm, ok.

was from New York City, served as a full-time Navy reservist between 2007 and 2011, according to military records.

Ok that would make sense. To "go postal" on a military facility, would require some prior knowledge.

In the Navy, he achieved the rank of aviation electrician's mate 3rd class, working on aircraft electrical systems, the records show.

Not a professionally trained trigger puller.

was honorably discharged after a "pattern of misconduct," a U.S. defense official with knowledge of the investigation told CNN on condition of anonymity. The official did not detail the misconduct.

Now this is interesting. I wonder if this was originally a general discharge, which then turned honorable after some time period? (I knew a guy who got out on a general which turned to an honorable after 6 months). I wonder what he did.

worked as an information technology contractor with the Navy

Ok, so yeah, an IT puke. Combine this with his navy MOS, and it's safe to assume this guy wasn't a professionally trained trigger puller. Is being trained relevant? I don't know, but my mind focuses in on it for some reason. Of course, shooting at unarmed people while you have the advantage of surprise isn't exactly a matter of skill or training.


appeared to have had sporadic run-ins with the law, dating back to at least 2004 when he was arrested in Seattle, accused of shooting out the tires of a man's truck in an anger-fueled "blackout," according to a Seattle Police Department report.

He told investigators he believed the man, a construction worker, was mocking him, but had no memory of shooting out the tires, the report said.

Hellllooooooo!

Investigators later spoke with (HIS ) father, who told police that his son had anger management problems associated with post-traumatic stress disorder, which he suffered after working "as an active participant in rescue attempts" during the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in New York, the report said

Combine this with all of the above and it's safe to say this dude was a walking time bomb waiting to go off.


You know what, ill just leave this link here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal
Going postal, in American English slang, means becoming extremely and uncontrollably angry, often to the point of violence, and usually in a workplace environment.

The expression derives from a series of incidents from 1983 onward in which United States Postal Service (USPS) workers shot and killed managers, fellow workers, and members of the police or general public in acts of mass murder. Between 1986 and 1997, more than forty people were gunned down by spree killers in at least twenty incidents of workplace rage.

[Father Goose]

You are being feed incorrect information

The only incorrect information I am being fed is by you! I'm still waiting for an apology from you for the last time you stepped in to "correct" me. You were wrong then and wrong now. :nope:

Do some research before you post your condescending lectures.

[Armistead]

Before I sold my contracting business, I worked in several airports and did work off and on at Ft. Bragg. They did a series of background checks on all employees, refused a few for even minor criminal offenses. That being said, once we were approved, a nut could easily have gotten a gun by, They were given an ID they wore. We only had to show ID at gates and drive through at Bragg, then carry in tool boxes, etc. It would be easy to hide guns or bombs in large rolling toolboxes.

Airports were more difficult, they did simple searches of our toolboxes and random searches.

[Tribesman]

In the time honored media tradition of proxy glorfication and giving of 15 minutes of fame to down and out nutjobs looking to be noticed, CNN is our Johnny-on-the-spot.

Glorification???????
That claim makes no sense.


That guy.... I swear. I wonder if he really believes all the crap he spews, or just does it as a "shock jock" for the ratings?

Its only little steps.
You start off for example by going, I wonder if there really is something of substance to the conspiracy sites yubba links to, then you post a few conspiracy links yourself on stories that grab your attention, make an observation that the government is going to use this event to push bad news off the front page and further their own agenda...then its only one more little step before you go full infowar and claim the evil government was behind it all.

[Ducimus]

Before I sold my contracting business, I worked in several airports and did work off and on at Ft. Bragg. They did a series of background checks on all employees, refused a few for even minor criminal offenses. That being said, once we were approved, a nut could easily have gotten a gun by, They were given an ID they wore. We only had to show ID at gates and drive through at Bragg, then carry in tool boxes, etc. It would be easy to hide guns or bombs in large rolling toolboxes.

Airports were more difficult, they did simple searches of our toolboxes and random searches.

You know what, there ARE area's where they do more complete security checks. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say what this area was or not (so I won't), but at one of the bases i was assigned to, there was an area ran by the Navy that required a higher security clearance to get on. I already had a secret clearance, and a flight line clearance badge (which was already a step above normal). This area required yet ANOTHER badge. Throughly gated, they checked EVERYTHING, our persons, our truck, toolboxes, etc, both coming and going, and we always had an escort with us at all times. I never did like going there.

Anyway, normally stuff isn't that secure.

[Armistead]

You know what, there ARE area's where they do more complete security checks. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say what this area was or not (so I won't), but at one of the bases i was assigned to, there was an area ran by the Navy that required a higher security clearance to get on. I already had a secret clearance, and a flight line clearance badge (which was already a step above normal). This area required yet ANOTHER badge. Throughly gated, they checked EVERYTHING, our persons, our truck, toolboxes, etc, both coming and going, and we always had an escort with us at all times. I never did like going there.

Anyway, normally stuff isn't that secure.

Certainly areas more secure. When we worked in baggage each tool was taken out of the bag, numbered, returned. It was really a pain. Each employee had through a 40 hour training and we had people with us at all times. Funny, being the owner, I wasn't required to do so, course they put me through hell to be an approved bidder.

Military bases, as you know, some areas secure, some not so much.

[Ducimus]

Military bases, as you know, some areas secure, some not so much.

Actually, most areas, not so much. Once you get past the main gate, unless you do something stupid like going out to the flight line, there isn't much to speak of aside from the occasional crown vic doing traffic. At least on an Air Force Base. I have been to the NCTC in gulfport a few times, and i don't recall it being much different.

[Skybird]

Skybird, come on man, if your gonna post info, give a supporting link! :O:
Buddhist prayers, Thailand, firing at the car's tires that was parking close by his house, having physical fights and violent outburst - it gets mentioned in several media over here. I saw little point in giving you a link for an obviously circulating story, even less so when it is all in German, referring to American sources (which means you had it earlier than us anyway).

The remark on "fate striking in 2011" was a typo of mine, I apologize. I mean 9/11, of course. He was reported to have been at the scene of the events, one of the many anonymous helpers in the very first minutes and hours after the impact and collapse. I meant the traumatization that this seems to have meant for him, and that it possibly pushed him off the track. Not everybody has a soul of granite and nerves of steel. I have witnessed the bombing of the La Belle in Berlin in 1986. Small in scale an event in comparsion to 9/11, and I was not even inside, but just passing outside on the street, by chance. I know for sure that watching the scene afterwards has had an impact on me, until today. That 9/11, witnessed from close range, can complete turn somebody's life upside down, is an absolutely believable possibility for me, like can even the first sight and singular experience of war scenes - on some people. We are not all made of the same stuff, thankfully, and we are not all equal in how we react to things, and we all have our own different breaking points. Some are more sensitive than others, and some are more vulnerable than others. Physical appearance and muscle strength has nothing to do with what I talk about. That traumatized people react to the traumatizing event with a destabilizing personality, become unrestful, show polarized, totally contradicting behavior patterns, from completely shy and peaceful to exploding in aggression within seconds and over a totally unimportant triggering event, is no unknown symptom for traumatization syndrome. It'S not always like that, many war veterans suffering PTS have a constant, creeping decline of their social life and inner psychological stability, living in constant inner state of alarm and battle-readiness - but some patients indeed react like is being reported about this Navy shooter now indeed.

The more info becomes known, the more we can form an impression on the guy, and assess his motives (or drives, which is not the same). The latest report I read before typing this was that they now say he heard voices. Don't know if that is true, but if it is: hearing voices is seen as a so-called primary and major symptom for schizophrenia.

[Father Goose]

When I am not enjoying relaxation on Matalava Island, I spend time in an area surrounded by military bases...Army, Navy, Air Force so I have a fair amount of experience on them. Both Armistead and Ducimus are absolutely correct. Once you get through the gate you're fairly unsupervised as long as you stay on the beaten path. But for most intense and purposes the military bases are a "gun-free zone" with the exception of the patrolling MPs. Not much different that a "gun-free" university depending on local law enforcement for protection. One retired military analysis commented yesterday that once inside the base, the shooter was likely to have confronted more resistance at the local Walmart.

I agree with Armistead that the first "line of defense" that was compromised in the Navy Yard shooting was the background check.

My previous post was regarding the frustration that not one military personnel in building 197 was permitted or allowed to carry a firearm to defend themselves. They had to run and hide waiting for the MPs and the Metro response team to arrive 7 minutes later to assist. A lot of lives can be lost during that time. It's possible the shooter may have had second thoughts if he knew he was going to confront immediate return fire. But instead he knew he was going to have a window of opportunity to inflict significant damage which unfortunately was correct.

The same holds true for "gun-free" zones in the civilian community which is why I avoid them.

[Ducimus]

Well, now an article from the Associated Press says he was hearing voices.

Gunman in Navy Yard rampage was hearing voices (http://www.ksl.com/?sid=26887531&nid=130&title=gunman-in-navy-yard-rampage-was-hearing-voices&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-1)

had been suffering a host of serious mental problems, including paranoia and a sleep disorder, and had been hearing voices in his head, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the criminal investigation was still going on.

He had been treated since August by Veterans Affairs, the officials said.


EDIT:
And the usual claim of violent video games
DC gunman obsessed with violent video games, reports say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/17/dc-gunman-obsessed-with-violent-video-games-reports-say/)

We're gonna come full circle in no time.

[Rammstein0991]

I dont think he cared if he could inflict damage or not, this is starting to look to me like what they call "suicide by cop" in which the person in question intentionally provokes police into a gunfight with the sole aim of being killed.

[Oberon]

Never knew the story behind the term 'Going Postal', but now I know.

[August]

EDIT:
And the usual claim of violent video games
DC gunman obsessed with violent video games, reports say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/17/dc-gunman-obsessed-with-violent-video-games-reports-say/)

We're gonna come full circle in no time.

I don't think it's all that simple as some claim (usually in an attempt to dismiss the idea totally)

But the author does make a point:

Several other mass killers, including Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik, have been linked to violent video games. And some experts worry that as the games get more violent and more realistic, so does their power to blur the line between fantasy and reality in alienated gamers. “More than any other media, these video games encourage active participation in violence," Bruce Bartholow, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Missouri, who has studied the issue, told Fox News earlier this month. “From a psychological perspective, video games are excellent teaching tools because they reward players for engaging in certain types of behavior. Unfortunately, in many popular video games, the behavior is violence.”

[desertstriker]

ok so now we again blame the videogames:nope: jusyt because a mass killer plays them doesn't mean that it is the bloody sucking cause. how many people play violent video games and come out normal? i turn to the Max Payne series pretty violent one of my favorites. I also point out those kind of games are some of the most common among adults, really don't see an adult playing my little pony:O:

no what i have heard now is yet another case of severe mental destability. which is what i have always seen in these mass shootings

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/US-Navy-Yard-Shooting/2013/09/17/id/526151?ns_mail_uid=62299708&ns_mail_job=1537883_09172013&promo_code=14E5A-1

Edit: another article but from the NY times http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us/washington-navy-yard-shootings.html?nl=afternoonupdate&emc=edit_au_20130917&_r=0

[August]

ok so now we again blame the videogames:nope: jusyt because a mass killer plays them doesn't mean that it is the bloody sucking cause. how many people play violent video games and come out normal? i turn to the Max Payne series pretty violent one of my favorites. I also point out those kind of games are some of the most common among adults, really don't see an adult playing my little pony:O:

This is exactly what I mean.

Oh and:

http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/mylittlepony%20new.jpg

[Aktungbby]

Anyway, normally stuff isn't that secure.
As a former Federal (3)Contract Security Officer (expendible) at all installations and bailiff of one federal court (5 yrs)on 9/11, you don't know the half of it. From little old ladies forgetting their pistol at the Xray machine to Sikh's with sacred kirpans(knives) and 300 lb guys on weight watchers who literally DON'T look like their ID anymore. It all adds up to a long 8+ hour day(demonstators or the President today?) and "you must be polite no matter how " rude, threatening or obnoxious a citizen may be"(rulebook). My particular specialty (ex trucker)was admitting the 18 wheelers to any Fed Bldg, looking for 'extra' air tanks (kaaboom) on the rig, eyeing cargos and mirroring the undersides of all vehicular traffic. Besides the occasional stark raving IRS lady not on her medication, everyone entering a social security office HAS a Problem! My college wrestling and the abnormal psych course proved to be real assets. Since most Fed Bldgs have their own postal stations, we kept an extra eye on those guys- no "goin' postal" on my watch. At the main Immigration Building we were the armed guys and had to watch over the sworn guys handling non-citizens and deportees! RULE 1: all stationary posts are STATIC and may gotten around, circumvented or infiltrated at will as with any Maginot line. You spend a lot of time playing the 'what if' game- if you can think of it-then they already have...One Oklahoma City, one 9/11, and three bomb shutdowns; I am happily out of that and joyfully augmenting my 'occasional' work with my Social Security checks these days! Thank you all who contribute; I'll send some to Onkel Neal ASAP!:cool:

[Oberon]

This is exactly what I mean.

Oh and:



http://www.fobequestria.com/

[Mr Quatro]

If you put this Washington DC shooters positives on one side of a scale and then put his negatives
on the other side of the scale the scales get lopsided real quick.

good points:
Grown man of 34
ex Navy man
Professional IT man
middle income
middle American

bad points:
witness to 911 resulting in
serious mental problems
treated by Veterans Affairs
paranoia
sleep disorder
hearing voices in his head
violent game player
Buddhist prayers in Thailand
firing at the car's tires that was parking close by his house
having physical fights and violent outburst


I'll never call Marines gate guards or boot polishers again they have tough jobs, but the numbers game is you have to let anyone in the main gate that has a pass.

Some bases down in the south have electronic passes now.

I vision a day when you have to look into the eyes of a computer and state your reasons for entering secure areas.

No, I haven't been watching too many science fiction movies.

They say one man can't tell what another man is thinking, but a computer can be programed with software that can read your eyes, read your mind and only a chronic liar can probably fool a machine.

I give it seven (7) more years till they have one that works :yep:

[Rammstein0991]

(sigh) The people on various internet forums, they are already discussing whether or not its terrorism, I dont think it is, I think its just some nutcase who got a gun and decided to use it. As a people we have become almost like hypochondriacs in that we see terrorism in EVERYTHING (much as a "hypo" sees disease everywhere) when this isnt the case. For example Nov. 12. 2001, American Airlines flight 587 goes down in queens new york and everyone thought it was terrorism, turns out it was actually pilot error.

The point I am making is again, we cant just run off on our first assumptions, thats how mistakes are made

[Stealhead]

If you put this Washington DC shooters positives on one side of a scale and then put his negatives
on the other side of the scale the scales get lopsided real quick.

good points:
Grown man of 34
ex Navy man
Professional IT man
middle income
middle American

bad points:
witness to 911 resulting in
serious mental problems
treated by Veterans Affairs
paranoia
sleep disorder
hearing voices in his head
violent game player
Buddhist prayers in Thailand
firing at the car's tires that was parking close by his house
having physical fights and violent outburst




I fail to see how Buddhist prayers in Thailand is a bad point.:doh:
Violent video game player has little relevance in and of its self.

I really hate the anti-video game and anti movie crap that was a big thing with Democrats at one time and now the right wingers use it as the cause of mass shootings.

[Stealhead]

That guy.... I swear. I wonder if he really believes all the crap he spews, or just does it as a "shock jock" for the ratings?



Of course it is. Did you see Obama's address yesterday? All 2 minutes of it? He already started framing the tragedy to suit how he wants to package it later for his own agenda. You have to look at his choice of words, his intent is obvious.



Any confirmation on that? I've never shot an M4, does it have a 3 round burst like the M16A2? Several witnesses said they heard a "pop,pop,pop". That sounds like a 3 round burst to me. From my experience, i think most of the time, a shooter with an AR-15 will either do "mag dump", a steady string of aimed fire, or a single or double tap shot. A consistant firing of 3 shots however, strikes me as a rifle with a 3 round burst. Of course all of this is irrelevant because even if the guy picked up a real assault rifle off a dead guard, the media is going to spin it as an AR15 no matter what. Either by agenda or by ignorance.



Yup. If bases of other branch's follow the same as what the USAF does, then the only people armed on a base are the Security Police/Military Police. Personal firearms are a big no-no. That said, getting one on base IS NOT HARD. I'm not sure what this naval yard setup is, but on an Air Base, if you have a base sticker on your car, they just wave you through. I guess the assumption is if you have a base sticker, you've already been cleared. As an aside, the front gate guard seems like they are usually more concerned with trying to look professional and cool to the public then anything else.



You have not been to any military base in the past 12 years then judgment by that statement.After 9/11 they started stopping every vehicle and all vehicle occupants must display proper ID.If they are not a dependent they must signed into the base.they also do random vehicle checks fairly often.

All of this was the rule at Ramstein AB when I arrived there in early 2000.(people like misspelling this name and mistake the German band Rammstein).Of course as I said earlier a nut is a nut.And I already displayed awareness of illegal items when I mentioned the "health and wellness" inspections typically the ones that had the illegal guns turned out to be drug dealers and had them off base "activities".


Typically M-4 carbines are semi and full auto only at least any M-4 I was ever issued was semi-full it would depend if it was an M4A1 or an an A2 or an A3 or an A4 some are burst fire some are not.Judging that this all just happened I say that the claims of what exactly happened are all scuttlebutt.

[Oberon]

I really hate the anti-video game and anti movie crap that was a big thing with Democrats at one time and now the right wingers use it as the cause of mass shootings.

Straw-grasping, when most of the world is moving on and treating video games as the new films, some will insist on making the same sort of generalisations that have been pointed at every form of media before games. Books, Pamphlets, Music, Film and now Games.
No-one has the answer to this, so in the meantime they'll do the usual round of the simple solutions, video games, firearms control, and so on and so forth.

[Stealhead]

The only incorrect information I am being fed is by you! I'm still waiting for an apology from you for the last time you stepped in to "correct" me. You were wrong then and wrong now. :nope:

Do some research before you post your condescending lectures.


You shall receive none because you are not correct no matter how hard you wish to be.You have shown no data that proves your claim to be correct.I have simply by having been in the armed forces and know from being there that the policy has been in effect for many years and it was not enacted by Clinton.I lived under the regulations I was in the military while Clinton was in office I was made aware of the policies I was there when they sat there and explained them.I have seen the required forms each military from has a date of issue or date or of reissue if the wording gets changed a month and date is at the bottom back in 1995 when I first viewed one it had a date from the 1970's.

[Madox58]

Base policy at Ft. Bragg in 1981 while I served there demanded ALL private weapons be stored in the arms locker or at the on base Weapons Range.

That didn't stop people from keeping them in thier rooms though.
Just down the Hall from me a couple Guys decided to play 'quick draw' one night with thier side arms which should have been stowed away.

One is dead with a shot through the heart.
Don't know if the other is still in prison or not.
:nope:

[Stealhead]

As I said been the rule for years I can not honestly tell you the exact date it was initiated but I can without doubt say that Clinton did not enact it.


What they did in the USAF is they had you fill out a form and if you lived in base housing you could keep your firearms at home if you where in the dorms which in the USAF is lower enlisted only you had store at the armory or the Rod and Gun Club.In Germany you had to store any gun at the Rod and Gun Club or leave it in the states that was because of German firearms laws.

Even with the base gate checks in Germany which included dogs and full car searches at random people still got drugs and other banned items in of course they might have also infiltrated the base and not risked going through one of the main gates.

[Ducimus]

You have not been to any military base in the past 12 years then judgment by that statement.After 9/11 they started stopping every vehicle and all vehicle occupants must display proper ID.If they are not a dependent they must signed into the base.they also do random vehicle checks fairly often.

I left active duty in Dec96, and finished my contract in the active reserves in 99 I think it was. So.. nope, sure haven't. I think i can sense the next question though. Why didn't i reenlist after 11Sept01? Two reasons. One, the AF wouldn't take me back. Career field overmanned i guess. In other words, I did try to.

Two, hesitantly, out of a odd sense of guilt that is really hard to describe, i was looking into joining the army instead, against my better judgement. I knew I had too many years in the AF and adapting would be rough to say the least, and what i really wanted was to be back out with "my people". My grandpa, a WW2 navy vet, bade me not to go. He told me I had already done my fair share, and let someone else do theirs now. Hearing that come out of a WW2 vet, overrode most of the guilt I had at the time. Had he not told me that, my life would be very different right now.


All of this was the rule at Ramstein AB when I arrived there in early 2000.

Well, I was talking about CONUS. Oversea's bases were always a different story.

[Madox58]

Dureing my time in Service, at every base I went to, you weren't allowed to keep them in your room or on base houseing.
That was Base Policy everywhere I went.

Maybe it did become a Service wide Law later.
At many Bases 1000's of Soldiers have real Weapons handy everyday.
Just not issued rounds.
(That didn't stop many from haveing a clip or 5 hidden away and handy)
:03:

There was also a Guy in my Company that snuck a grenade off base.
They found him after he pulled the pin and dropped it under his couch.
He use to brag about pulling the pin and holding the spoon while drinking.
Later he'd put the pin back in.

[Stealhead]

I left active duty in Dec96, and finished my contract in the active reserves in 99 I think it was. So.. nope, sure haven't. I think i can sense the next question though. Why didn't i reenlist after 11Sept01? Two reasons. One, the AF wouldn't take me back. Career field overmanned i guess. In other words, I did try to.


I was not trying to knock you with that one comment I just wanted to point out some changes that have occurred since the last time you where a regular at any bases.

The only reason I was in during and after 9/11/2001 was because I had just for whatever reason signed a 6 year term in June of 2001.After 2004 my family became more important than the USAF so when that six year deal was up I hit the door running.I grew tired of military life about two weeks after signing that six year term.:/\\!! Not that it was not useful experience for me or wasted time I just had my fill.

[August]

Base policy at Ft. Bragg in 1981 while I served there demanded ALL private weapons be stored in the arms locker or at the on base Weapons Range.

That didn't stop people from keeping them in thier rooms though.
Just down the Hall from me a couple Guys decided to play 'quick draw' one night with thier side arms which should have been stowed away.

One is dead with a shot through the heart.
Don't know if the other is still in prison or not.
:nope:

We had way too many Health and Welfare inspections to get away with that.

[Madox58]

I'm pretty sure they brought them back to the barracks that nite after going to the base range.

I can recall seeing the weapons involved on several occasions at the barracks.

The lethal weapon was a Colt .45 6-shooter and was believed to be unloaded!

The other Guy had a Colt .45 semi-auto which was unloaded.

No one knows who was the fastest draw and it really doesn't matter.
They were drunk and did the utimate stupid.
:nope:

[Ducimus]

I was not trying to knock you with that one comment I just wanted to point out some changes that have occurred since the last time you where a regular at any bases.

The only reason I was in during and after 9/11/2001 was because I had just for whatever reason signed a 6 year term in June of 2001.After 2004 my family became more important than the USAF so when that six year deal was up I hit the door running.I grew tired of military life about two weeks after signing that six year term.:/\\!! Not that it was not useful experience for me or wasted time I just had my fill.

Getting out for me was hard to accept. It was in fact, my lifes goal to be a career NCO. The growing pains of a young airman and a 3 on an EPR shot me down in flames. Couldn't get a CJR later on because of it. I think i'll always harbor some resentment towards the EPR system, combined with constant deployments and TDY's. When your rater grades you purely on hearsay when he's on one TDY, and your on a completely different TDY and project. Fascinating how when i got a new rater who was actually working with me, that i got a 5 on the following EPR, and I hadn't changed my behavior at all. Meh, i guess this is the subject for another thread. Im totally not bitter about that still, noooo.. not at all. At least now I have a wife, a house, and a daughter on the way. That's my new mission in life.

[Stealhead]

I agree with the EPR system what a joke they are if you happen to have a lousy or harsh supervisor you get unfairly screwed over.I think those things get rid of a lot of people who would have if given a fair chance had excellent careers but got burned instead.

It gets littel better as an NCO in many respects.Why they stick to the same system when it is flawed is beyond me.An it goes both ways because bad NCOs who enjoy ass kissers give good EPRs which means lots of good kissers but bad thinkers and doers.

That Soviet officer that chose not to send up a report for the radar alert of a US missile attack back in 1983 because he knew it was a glitch he got sacked for that go he figure helped avoid an accidental WWIII.He said in this TV interview "The big bird *****s on the little bird and I was the little bird."

[Aktungbby]

Getting out for me was hard to accept. It was in fact, my lifes goal to be a career NCO. The growing pains of a young airman and a 3 on an EPR shot me down in flames. Couldn't get a CJR later on because of it. I think i'll always harbor some resentment towards the EPR system, combined with constant deployments and TDY's. When your rater grades you purely on hearsay when he's on one TDY, and your on a completely different TDY and project. Fascinating how when i got a new rater who was actually working with me, that i got a 5 on the following EPR, and I hadn't changed my behavior at all. Meh, i guess this is the subject for another thread. Im totally not bitter about that still, noooo.. not at all. At least now I have a wife, a house, and a daughter on the way. That's my new mission in life.
we refer to that as " damned with faint praise":arrgh!:

[Father Goose]

You have shown no data that proves your claim to be correct.

I have seen the required forms each military from has a date of issue or date or of reissue if the wording gets changed a month and date is at the bottom back in 1995 when I first viewed one it had a date from the 1970's.

Steelhead, apparently prior to your entry to the military:
January 21, 1993, William Jefferson Clinton took the oath of office as President of the United States.
March 12, 1993, Army Regulation 190-14 was issued.
April 12, 1993, Army Regulation 190-14 became effective.

Articles like the one below are easily found discussing the ban enacted under the Clinton Administration.

Security: As the usual suspects call for stricter gun control, the fact remains that a gunman with two prior gun-crime arrests entered a secure military facility and found no one able to shoot back.

It was Fort Hood all over again. Aaron Alexis, a gunman whose prior behavioral warning signs were ignored, opens fire in an installation belonging to the most powerful military on Earth and those who protect our nation and design our weapons are not allowed to have a weapon to defend themselves. He was more equipped than the 12 people he killed on the base who were not permitted to carry weapons on the base, thanks to former President Bill Clinton.

In 1993 the president issued orders that barred members of the military and their civilian contractors from carrying personal firearms on base. Even officers were disarmed under the law.
Almost as soon as Clinton assumed office, in March 1993 the Army imposed regulations forbidding military personnel from carrying their personal firearms and making it almost impossible for commanders to issue firearms to soldiers in the U.S. for personal protection.
That ban extends to virtually all U.S military bases and related installations.
Under the ruling enacted by the Clinton administration, there must be "a credible and specific threat against personnel" before military personnel "may be authorized to carry firearms for personal protection."

This was the reason that the Fort Hood shooter Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was able to go on a rampage for a full 10 minutes in 2009 without being stopped. This is why, at Fort Hood, home of the heavily armed and feared 1st Cavalry Division, a civilian policewoman from off base was the one whose marksmanship ended Hasan's terrorist rampage, to this day obscenely called "workplace violence," denying survivors and the dead medals and benefits.

Mandy Foster, the wife of one of the soldiers shot at Fort Hood,was asked how she felt about her husband's upcoming deployment to Afghanistan. She responded: "At least he's safe there and he can fire back, right?" Safer than at the Washington Navy Yard or Fort Hood.

Steelhead, the point of my initial post is the government policy is flawed that allows an intruder to breach the perimeter of a military base and then proceed unimpeded to shoot multiple individuals without immediate confrontation.

You should be just as interested to know that at the same time the shooting at the Washington Yard is taking place, BO waives a ban arming terrorists, a part of a federal law designed to prevent the supply of arms to terrorist groups, so he could arm Syrian rebels. So the US is arming terrorists but forbids the arming of it's own military personnel in the Homeland. Interesting. :hmmm:

[Stealhead]

Have you not read the posts by former members of the US Army guys that where in back in the late 70's early 80s?

Again I regret to inform you that this policy was around before Clinton.I really do not care where you are getting your information because it is wrong.Plain and simply the regulations where on the books before Clinton.

You are ignoring posts from people who where in the armed forces long before Clinton was in office confirming that the regulations where in place before Clinton.Are you calling Privateer and August liars?It may have been officially become a DOD wide policy in 1992 but before that it was already under the discretion of the base commander and they all choose to enforce a firearm registration and restriction policy.Furthermore I was in USAF not the Army and it was a USAF wide regulation long before Clinton.the only thing that occurred was the DOD decided that these policy where in such wide use at most every base anyway they simply made it a DOD wide policy besides that point the army reg that you stated in merely is means to confirm implementation of the DOD reg.

Donald J. Atwood, deputy secretary of defense under President George H.W. Bush. was the one that approved the DOD wide policy DOD 5210.56,previous versions date from 1986 and 1966.You are incorrect.By the way a US Army regulation has no bearing on a US Navy facility.

I have no desire to discuss this further with you.Because you do not know what you are talking about.

Be aware that my not responding to your claims(after this point) in no way signifies that you are correct or that I agree with you.Have a nice evening.

[nikimcbee]

I've had no problems getting on base today or yesterday. I was really surprised. I thought they'd (Portland NOSC) would be in full lockdown.:-?

[Stealhead]

I've had no problems getting on base today or yesterday. I was really surprised. I thought they'd (Portland NOSC) would be in full lockdown.:-?


It depends on the situation.Sometimes the THREATCON(or what ever they call in now) is increased or decreased DOD wide other times it may only change at one base.This was an isolated incident therefore no need to up every base to Delta.Delta meaning that an event has occurred.DOD is careful about raising THREATCON everywhere because other nations observe our military activates it can imply that a major action is about to occur when things go above condition Bravo military wide.

That is why you experienced the normal routine in Portland.

[Rammstein0991]

Too often they dont catch these guys in time, I mean hell the texas tower sniper Whitman said to a friend of his as they were walking by the campus one day, he pointed to the tower and said "Thatd be a good place to go up and shoot people" or something to that effect, and the "friend" didnt call the cops to turn this nutjob in...:nope:

[Tribesman]

February 25, 1992
NUMBER 5210.56 is written by the DoD
January 21, 1993, William Jefferson Clinton took the oath of office as President of the United States.
March 12, 1993, Army Regulation 190-14 was issued.
April 12, 1993, Army Regulation 190-14 became effective.

Fixed that for ya.
Would you like all the previous versions of the same regulations or would facts be a problem?
Perhaps a quick list of all the other applicable regulations and their ever changing definitions which are referenced in 190-14, you know things like storage and drugs and mental problems to give a fuller picture of how things work?

Articles like the one below are easily found discussing the ban enacted under the Clinton Administration.

Maybe you should look at the regulations instead of articles like the one you quote.
Which was it from? Libertarian republic, conservativenewscentral or libertynews?

[Platapus]

I was in the service from 1981 to 2001 and at no time were privately owned weapons (firearms) allowed in the dorms or even base housing. Everything had to be registered and stored at the armory.

Even when we deployed to the remote ordnance ranges, we could not carry nor use our personally owned weapons on military land. BLM land was OK though. :up:

[Stealhead]

Where you ever at Ramstein AB in 2000 or 2001? We might have passed by each other at some point.I also did 2 TDYs to Incirlik during that time span during Operation Northern Watch.

[Peter Cremer]

I just saw on BBC World News that a review has been started in D.C. about why an armed and ready police team was told to NOT RESPOND to the shooting call. What is this about? Has anybody else heard about this? Could it be that the Administration wanted a higher death count so they could bring up more gun control crap?

[August]

I just saw on BBC World News that a review has been started in D.C. about why an armed and ready police team was told to NOT RESPOND to the shooting call. What is this about? Has anybody else heard about this? Could it be that the Administration wanted a higher death count so they could bring up more gun control crap?

The administration had absolutely no control over the operation. Nor would any such attempt go unnoticed.

[Tribesman]

Could it be that the Administration wanted a higher death count so they could bring up more gun control crap?
Could it be a grand conspiracy, or just a screw up between different organisations working the Incident Command System?
Was there a single incident commander at the scene or was there a mulit agency unified command at the scene? Where did the capitol security team who turned up fit in to the system, who were they reporting to and co-ordinating with?

questions questions.....Or maybe it is just a sneaky gun grab scheme.

[Ducimus]

Report: Armed Emergency Response Team Ordered to Stand Down at Navy Yard as Shooting Started (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/09/18/Report-SWAT-team-stand-down-Navy-Yard)

On Wednesday, BBC News reported that an armed emergency response team arrived on site at the Washington Navy Yard within minutes of Aaron Alexis beginning his shooting spree, but was forced to stand down and was instead ordered back to Capitol Hill.

According to BBC, “A tactical response team of the Capitol police, a force that guards the US Capitol complex, was told to leave the scene by a supervisor instead of aiding municipal officers.” A Capitol Police source told the BBC, “I don’t think it’s a far stretch to say that some lives may have been saved if we were allowed to intervene.”

When Alexis began shooting at approximately 8:20 AM ET, the four-man Containment and Emergency Response Team (CERT) was already near the Navy Yard. They were armed with HK-416 rifles, and were already wearing full tactical gear. They arrived at Building 197 a few minutes later. But the Washington Metropolitan Police watch commander reportedly told CERT to go back to Capitol Hill.

Capitol Police Officer Jim Konczos, the head of the police union, said, “Odds are it might have had a different outcome. It probably could have been neutralized.” A spokeswoman for the Metro PD said that the reports were “not true,” but on Wednesday, the PD said that a preliminary investigation had been opened.

[Platapus]

Could it be that the Administration wanted a higher death count so they could bring up more gun control crap?

Yeah, because that type of conspiracy would survive about 0.5 seconds before being leaked to the press.:doh:

[soopaman2]

Yeah, because that type of conspiracy would survive about 0.5 seconds before being leaked to the press.:doh:

Nah, Alex Jones said blah blah blah, Obama is a blah blah blah, and this entire thing goes back to (insert past president here)

Jesse Ventura is soon to respond on this with his, "I am a Navy seal and this situation is.....blah blah blah.



Maybe just once, it is an asshat with a gun, not something Obama, Eric Holder, or the flaming libs manufactured.

How about stop letting people kicked out the military for PTSD become civilian contractors, maybe we abolish the good old boys club, that the military industrial complex is?

Or get rid of the MIC outright. lol yeah right :rotfl2::shifty:

America without war, or threat thereof, is like a day without sunshine.

We might do something silly, like focus inward, on our own problems.

[Ducimus]

America without war, or threat thereof, is like a day without sunshine.

We might do something silly, like focus inward, on our own problems.

Well, like i always say (at least to people i know in my daily life), if your going to dream, dream big.

[em2nought]

Telefon, just sayin'. :hmmm:

[Platapus]

Telefon, just sayin'. :hmmm:

Love that movie. Waiting for it to be released on DvD. The one collection on amazon is not very good quality.