Mandating the installation of EDRs - Black Boxes

[Feuer Frei!]

EDR's, short for Event Data Recorders, or Black Boxes.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration rule requires all light passenger vehicles be equipped with an EDR [event data recorder] by Sep.1, 2014. Ninety-six percent of new cars already have them — measuring such inputs as speed, lateral acceleration, pedal effort, seat belt use, wheel spin, steering wheel turn and direction.

SOURCE (http://moonbattery.com/?p=34753)

[Wolferz]

They can put one in my pick up truck... if they pay for it! Otherwise they can go fish. The EDR will be a pain in the butt for folks driving older vehicles that predate ECMs and ABS and I see it as cost prohibitive in a big way. The article didn't mention any grandfather clause and leaves me to assume a great many questions. Like...
Are they only requiring this on newly manufactured cars?
Are they going to require this on any and all cars now on the road?
Are they going to subsidize the installation of all the necessary electronics and sensors required to make the EDR work as intended?
Are they going to just kick older vehicles off the road for not having it?

Will LEOs be given equipment to plug into a speeding motorists car to prove how fast they were travelling during their trip?

The noblest of intentions don't always pan out in practical applications.
Just more lawmaker stupidity if you ask me.

[Ducimus]

I wonder how hard it would be to remove it and if cars will be hardwired to have them or not work correctly.

[soopaman2]

My concern is how many more thousands will this add to the prices of a car.

Not like automotive companies ever balked at a chance for extra profits.

Unit costs 1k, sell it for 4 k extra.

(Oh I edited, oh noes)

[Dowly]

I wonder how hard it would be to remove it and if cars will be hardwired to have them or not work correctly.

I bet someone with a little knowledge of the system could remove/disconnect it. :hmmm:

Legality of such action? I got no idea. What if a car that should have EDR is part
of an accident and the investigators find out the device has been removed/disconnected.
What would happen then? :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

I bet someone with a little knowledge of the system could remove/disconnect it. :hmmm:

Legality of such action? I got no idea. What if a car that should have EDR is part
of an accident and the investigators find out the device has been removed/disconnected.
What would happen then? :hmmm:

Hypothetically speaking should one be in my car, I am honestly not overly concerned about the legality of removing a device such as this from my personal property.

[Wolferz]

I wonder how hard it would be to remove it and if cars will be hardwired to have them or not work correctly.

Oh, they'll hardwire the things in there and make it a felony to remove or circumvent them.
IE: My 1995 Chevrolet truck came with a federally mandated driver's side airbag. If I pull the fuse on the airbag to prevent accidental deployment while working on it, the automatic transmission won't shift out of first gear until I put the fuse back.
I would wager that the same thing would happen if I removed the airbag altogether, which is integrated into the horn button and prevents me from installing a custom steering wheel.

I have no doubt that I could bypass it by simply installing the proper value resistor across the connection to fool the ECM into thinking the airbag was still there. But I won't. I kind of like the idea of getting punched in the face for not paying attention to the road.

[Dowly]

Hypothetically speaking should one be in my car, I am honestly not overly concerned about the legality of removing a device such as this from my personal property.

Guess that's for the feds to decide. :O:

Though, system like this could do some good too, in unclear situations, the data
from an EDR might prove to be crucial. But, of course, it can be a PITA too.

Ah well, like Bubbles said in another thread: I dont live there so what do I know. :salute:

[Ducimus]

These days with all that's been going on, I just get pigheaded about stuff like this. No thanks on the surveillance state.

[Gargamel]

It's just like the airbag or seatbelt law.

Cars without them will be grandfathered in, new cars will have them. Most already do. How do you think that Progressive Insurance data thingy works? By tapping into your black box.

I think these things are excellent for accident investigation. It helps place the blame on the correct party.

[Gargamel]

I kind of like the idea of getting punched in the face for not paying attention to the road.

As many wrecks I have worked, that is usually the case.

I always do enjoy the people who have to call 911 for not seeing that cement pylon (painted safety yellow btw) in the parking lot and running smack into it. Not much damage to it or the car, but they end up with minor burns and a bloody nose from the airbag.

[soopaman2]

Got alot of toll roads here.

Got something called EZpass.

For those outside of America, it is a device that allows you to pay tolls without stopping.

It can also know when you drive at 90 mph on the Parkway or Turnpike, due to being able to measure your time between stops. I never got a ticket for my speeding. ( The GS parkway is unique, as 90 mph is the average speed, and the state police never really pull you over unless you are weaving traffic.)

I had one pass me at 90 mph and not only blazed by me, but waved at me on the way by.

A Strange dynamic.

I invite everyone to the NJ autobahn, stop off at exit 105 for tea or coffee with me.:O:

[Wolferz]

Ah, New Jersey. The only state I know that charges a toll to leave it.:O:

How much did you spend crossing that bridge on I-80 during your move, Wernher?

[soopaman2]

Ah, New Jersey. The only state I know that charges a toll to leave it.:O:


Can be called a cliche, but is true. No lie, we got more tolls than the River Styx.:D

[Ducimus]

I have to wonder...

Ok so my wife likes to watch "real housewives". No I don't think they're real housewives. The title of that show is a crock of BS. Should be more like "Really entitled Diva's". Anyway, are people in New Jersey really anything like what I watched (more like suffered through) in that real housewives series?

[Wolferz]

Can be called a cliche, but is true. No lie, we got more tolls than the River Styx.:D

Not as bad as the welcome signs...
WELCOME TO NEW JERSEY
THE GARDEN STATE
YOU BROUGHT MONEY RIGHT?

And the exit signs...
COME BACK SOON!
BRING MORE MONEY!

[AVGWarhawk]

Nothing new here. ECM under dash already read speed, throttle potion, ambient air temp, coolant temp and mass air flow. This is how your car runs folks. This information can be read while the engine is running and car in motion. Or just a idle. A simple ROM in the ECM and that is it. Heck VW ECM records over-revves of the engine. The reason they do this for those that blow their 2.0T by redlining the car will be questioned at the dealer when asking for a new warranty engine. :03:

The little black box is there. It just needs to keep memory...which it does to a certain extent.

[soopaman2]

I have to wonder...

Ok so my wife likes to watch "real housewives". No I don't think they're real housewives. The title of that show is a crock of BS. Should be more like "Really entitled Diva's". Anyway, are people in New Jersey really anything like what I watched (more like suffered through) in that real housewives series?


Do not let shows like that or the Jersey shore influence you.

I am not your typical NJ person, I was born in the NYC.. So I am a bit outspoken.

First off, the state does not stink. All the refineries that caused that smell were shipped to China and Canada in the 60s. I always wondered why that rumor hung around so long.

Second of all, the Real Housewives and the Jersey shore disgusts anyone with real Italian heritage, those of us who love it, not exploit it. They paint a bad picture for the hardworking folks, who build your roads and bridges, or serve your food. Real working class guys.

I laugh at the NJ jokes, I just hate to see us all painted by scummy tv shows.

Sorry if I derailed.:timeout:

[AVGWarhawk]

I am not your typical NJ person, I was born in the NYC.. So I am a bit outspoken.



Probably talk a lot with your hands going. :haha:

I was born in Garden City NY. Out on da island.

[Wolferz]

Nothing new here. ECM under dash already read speed, throttle potion, ambient air temp, coolant temp and mass air flow. This is how your car runs folks. This information can be read while the engine is running and car in motion. Or just a idle. A simple ROM in the ECM and that is it. Heck VW ECM records over-revves of the engine. The reason they do this for those that blow their 2.0T by redlining the car will be questioned at the dealer when asking for a new warranty engine. :03:

The little black box is there. It just needs to keep memory...which it does to a certain extent.

Oh so true. I've dealt with the things since GM first started putting them in their cars. But, you can't really call it a black box because the box is made of aluminum with a circuit board mounted in it. The circuit board has a PROM receptacle where the integrated chip is plugged into it. I don't know for sure how sophisticated they have become over the years but, the early versions didn't store more than trouble codes in memory. To be read by grounding the diagnostic connector and counting the number of times the Check Engine lamp flashed to reveal a trouble code. It was great for tracking down a bad sensor but couldn't reveal much more info than that.

Our tune-up guy had a devil of a time with a new car that would only fire the left bank cylinders of the motor. Replacing the control module with a new one didn't help and he was at his wits end until I suggested that he get another new one off the lot and switch the control modules. Both ran perfectly. A connector issue maybe?

With a true black box recorder in new cars, you wonder how it will affect the driving experience if the thing has a problem that shuts you down and leaves you stranded on the highway or in the middle of traffic.

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh so true. I've dealt with the things since GM first started putting them in their cars. But, you can't really call it a black box because the box is made of aluminum with a circuit board mounted in it. The circuit board has a PROM receptacle where the integrated chip is plugged into it. I don't know for sure how sophisticated they have become over the years but, the early versions didn't store more than trouble codes in memory. To be read by grounding the diagnostic connector and counting the number of times the Check Engine lamp flashed to reveal a trouble code. It was great for tracking down a bad sensor but couldn't reveal much more info than that.

Our tune-up guy had a devil of a time with a new car that would only fire the left bank cylinders of the motor. Replacing the control module with a new one didn't help and he was at his wits end until I suggested that he get another new one off the lot and switch the control modules. Both ran perfectly. A connector issue maybe?

With a true black box recorder in new cars, you wonder how it will affect the driving experience if the thing has a problem that shuts you down and leaves you stranded on the highway or in the middle of traffic.

Ah, you are old school like me. Chrysler flashing code. Ford breakout boxes and ALDL on the GM. I was working on the first ROM ECM in the late 70's up to the 90's. The theory is still the same. 14:1 fuel to O2 is still optimal. Today's boxes still do the same but are much more advanced. Wireless throttles, ABS, traction control, rollover prevention, etc. The black boxes always had the ability to to shut you down. Reach 100 or so MPH and the little box cuts your fuel. That function has been around a while. Changing certain perimeters/values in the ECM can add HP or create different shift points. The ECM is very capable of recording events. I do not see it as a costly addition to the ECM that is already recording. Should be a grandfather clause for vehicles already on the road.

[soopaman2]

Probably talk a lot with your hands going. :haha:

I was born in Garden City NY. Out on da island.


You should curse alot more!

What da hell is wrong wit' ya?

Meh forum rules and all, Howard Beach here just south of the Belt.. Home of the Ginzo, land of the free.:woot:

The one neighborhood in queens not getting eaten up by gangbanging, for now

[Aktungbby]

They can put one in my pick up truck... if they pay for it! Otherwise they can go fish. The EDR will be a pain in the butt for folks driving older vehicles that predate ECMs and ABS and I see it as cost prohibitive in a big way. The article didn't mention any grandfather clause and leaves me to assume a great many questions. Like...
Are they only requiring this on newly manufactured cars?
Are they going to require this on any and all cars now on the road?
Are they going to subsidize the installation of all the necessary electronics and sensors required to make the EDR work as intended?
Are they going to just kick older vehicles off the road for not having it?

Will LEOs be given equipment to plug into a speeding motorists car to prove how fast they were travelling during their trip?

The noblest of intentions don't always pan out in practical applications.
Just more lawmaker stupidity if you ask me.
Also overlooked in CA is the Fast-Pass which is currently monitored "only" strictly for traffic flow pattern analysis along all freeways. Users are given a mylar envelope to place the pass in if they don't wish to be monitored other than in a toll lane or at a toll bridge. How long will that last in a "police state"?:arrgh!:

[mookiemookie]

It's just like the airbag or seatbelt law.

Cars without them will be grandfathered in, new cars will have them. Most already do. How do you think that Progressive Insurance data thingy works? By tapping into your black box.

I think these things are excellent for accident investigation. It helps place the blame on the correct party.

It won't be long before that Progressive Insurance data thingy is mandatory for all insurance companies. And if not mandatory, they'll make you pay a lot more if you don't allow them to tap into it.

Am I weird that I'm more irked about marketers and corporations knowing all about me than the government?

[Wolferz]

I visited New York City...once! A short hop out on Long Island and back to Staten Island. Put it in the rearview mirrors and ain't never been back. Driving a semi through the place is an.... experience I'll not duplicate.:huh:

[Wolferz]

It won't be long before that Progressive Insurance data thingy is mandatory for all insurance companies. And if not mandatory, they'll make you pay a lot more if you don't allow them to tap into it.

Am I weird that I'm more irked about marketers and corporations knowing all about me than the government?

You won't need the Progressive data thingy when they can just download what they want from your EDR after an accident. It has a lot of pros. The only con is it's going to tell on you if you're an aggressive driver who thinks speed limit signs are just suggestions.
Better buy a bicycle.:03:

[AVGWarhawk]

You should curse alot more!

What da hell is wrong wit' ya?

Meh forum rules and all, Howard Beach here just south of the Belt.. Home of the Ginzo, land of the free.:woot:

The one neighborhood in queens not getting eaten up by gangbanging, for now

We left the island back in 1973. The neighborhood was getting rough. Live in MD since then. My parents are back in Flushing. All be it at the Flushing Cemetery. I will return one day to Flushing Cemetery for a permanent stay. But not yet. :03:

[mookiemookie]

You won't need the Progressive data thingy when they can just download what they want from your EDR after an accident. It has a lot of pros. The only con is it's going to tell on you if you're an aggressive driver who thinks speed limit signs are just suggestions.
Better buy a bicycle.:03:

I don't think they'll wait for an accident. I'm thinking that thing will phone home if you go faster than 70 mph or take a turn too fast. Next time you check your email: "DING! Your insurance premiums have increased due to your recent driving activity. Slow it down, bucko!"

[Wolferz]

I don't think they'll wait for an accident. I'm thinking that thing will phone home if you go faster than 70 mph or take a turn too fast. Next time you check your email: "DING! Your insurance premiums have increased due to your recent driving activity. Slow it down, bucko!"

They ain't putting ET in my vehicle....EVER!!

[AVGWarhawk]

They ain't putting ET in my vehicle....EVER!!

Wolferz bad. Phone home.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lQlceRTLv9Y/TlbnDFs-9NI/AAAAAAAAES4/1zcES-HshLc/s320/RC-HOME.jpg

[Wolferz]

:har:
Have an M&M you long necked critter thing. We'll let the Earth Germs finish you off. If that don't work, I got this rope, a sturdy bumper and my pick of two interstate highways really close. You can try to phone home when we get to Cleveland.

[XabbaRus]

As someone else said this is nothing new. All modern cars that have an ECU will record a lot of the data that they want to measure. My car made in 2010 while not having anything more advanced than ABS (no ESP or TC) has a page in the manual that says the ECU will record various data that can be looked at in the event of an accident. So that will be speed, revs, gear, brake status etc. in fact I'm going to get an OBD reader which I can connect via wifi to my phone or laptop to see exactly what my engine is doing.