Russian supersonic missiles behave like wolves

[Wxman]

Russian supersonic missiles behave like wolves (Russian supersonic missiles behave like wolves)
August 8, 2013 Viktor Litovkin, special to RBTH


Large-scale construction of the next-generation Project 885 Yasen-class submarine armed with Onyx supersonic missiles is starting in Russia. These ships will compete with the latest American Seawolf-class nuclear submarines and will be world leaders in terms of fire power.

Large-scale construction of the next-generation Project 885 Yasen-class multi-purpose nuclear attack submarine, armed with Onyx supersonic cruise missiles, is starting in Russia. The ships will compete with the latest American Seawolf-class nuclear submarines in terms of their noise profile and will be world leaders in terms of fire power.

Moscow plans to acquire at least 10 of these boats by 2020. The fourth submarine in this class was laid down in Severodvinsk on the eve of Navy Day, which was celebrated on July 28.

The Project 885 nuclear submarine is the quintessence of everything the Russian military industrial complex has achieved in over half a century of building submarines...

[Excerpted: read entire article at rbth.ru/science_and_tech...wolves_28781.html] (http://rbth.ru/science_and_tech/2013/08/08/russian_supersonic_missiles_behave_like_wolves_287 81.html)

http://nl.media.rbth.ru/web/en-rbth/images/2013-08/big/RIAN_00481248_yakhont_468.jpg
Image source: from article cited.

[Wxman]

http://nl.media.rbth.ru/web/in-rbth/images/2013-08/big/8.08/Rus76084_yasen885_941.jpg

Infographic source: from article cited

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully they'll never need to use the rescue chamber then (thinking of the Kursk).

[PavelKirilovich]

Here (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html#mozTocId241813) is another, technical, article on the 3K55 / Kh-61 missile complex.

It will be interesting to see if they actually manage to build and crew these boats. The VMF has some considerable problems.

[Leandros]

Hmm...the first one laid down in 1993, launched in 2010....no hurry, obviously....:hmmm:...

Fred

[Leandros]

Hopefully they'll never need to use the rescue chamber then (thinking of the Kursk).

Or its weapons....:o..

Fred

[TorpX]

I thought the Russians were short of money to spend on these kinds of things. I guess not?

Since this seems aimed at the US; I suppose we'll have to upgrade our stuff now.

[Kapitan]

The problem with the Russian navy is one of a fine balancing act right now, the fact is they need to maintain a presence at sea so keep older more costly units in service while building new ones, the defence budget has hugely decreased from 1986 to almost 0% GDP in the 90's since 1999 the defence budget has been steadily increased to fall in line with western budgets.

This culminated in 2004 with the announcement of 2 new aircraft carriers this has been shelved due to the 2008 credit crisis which means the current and single kuznetsov will require over it's extended life span quite a few million more rubles to keep her active I till replaced (predicted 2020)

Most of Russia's fleet consists of late 1980's 90's tech we even see victor III delta III and sierras still in active service, this is due to the severe budget constraints of the 90's where most vessels under construction at the time were scrapped or haulted, hence why akulas replacement the new yasen is some 13 years behind shedual.

Since 2008 Russia has notably sold to over seas customers to get much needed investment, the Indian talawar frigates are one example as is the gorshkov Fiasco.

Putin has also signed a deal in recent times purchasing five French built assault ships, which should be joining the fleet for around 2018 it is envisaged that Russia will remain a naval power but no where near the level the Soviet Union had once been a more conservative 150 ship navy ( around half the us fleet numerically) should be in full service by 2025.

The fleet although smaller than the American navy would remain one of the largest fleets in the world ranking 3rd or 4th place ahead of France and Great Britain, other nations set to surpass Russia in numbers would be china and India in the coming years. Russia currently ranks as the 2nd largest navy in the world.

I do not believe we will see a soviet style build up any time soon the fact the army and airforce has also been cut would mean Russia still wants to play on a global footing but not as active as the former Soviet Union.

It must be said Russia currently supply's 25% of European gas and oil imports, this steady rise has led to the re shuffle of the navy army and airforce and allowed production or arms to flow consistantly since 2000.

Weapons production has mainly been export orientated and no doubt will continue to do so in the future, as for onyx this will replace the SS-N-19 and 22 missile currently carried on Oscar class submarines Slava cruisers sovremenny destroyers and Kirov cruisers the future for the Russian navy does look bright not as large but still very bright.

[ikalugin]

I do wonder though if project 883 or project 958 like submarines would make it into Russian Navy any time soon.

[Kapitan]

So far we have seen borei 3 of them built and entering service soon this out of the planned 12 units these will replace current delta III and IV SSBN in service the lead unit is currently under sea trials with acceptance imminent.

The new attack submarines of the yasen class so far one is nearly ready for sea the likely production run of 16 may take years to achieve yet due to funding.

The lada class had been suspended due to the lead boat having problems these were resolved in 2012 and the two following boats are continuing construction a planned 24 are to be built but personally my estimate will be that number to be cut to around 16 with the rest being sold as export models.

[ikalugin]

I seriously doupt that there would be 16 pr. 955 and 12 pr. 885 submarines built (2 pr. 955 and 1 pr 885 have been completed so far, 3 more pr. 955 series and pr 885 series are in production, further 3 pr 955 and 4 pr 885 series are expected) , certainly not under GPV2020 program, or GPV2025 program (as only the total of 20 new nuclear boats are planned).

Hence is the question - will Russian build new "small" dedicated sub hunters? For example I believe that there is a portable nuclear power plant for the small (Kilo class size) submarines being developed from the 2009, maybe it would cover the gaps as 2-3 short divisions of pr. 885 subrmarines just dont cover the needs of the Northern and Pacific fleets.

[Kapitan]

It's all a matter of balancing the books, victor 3 and early akulas are in need of replacement within the next 5/10 year bracket so 16 project 885 submarines are about right unless the new defense paper of 2014 states otherwise and that would be a blow to the navy as it would mean around a 70% reduction in force size.

Currently 12 SSBN submarines are active down from the 2009 16 however Russia did announce 12 bories and it is very likely all will be built as this would again down size the fleet considerably.

Small sub chasers such as grisha probably won't be built in the number we have seen in previous times the russian navy has a deficit of units so the number they published in 2013 are about right as for small submarines with nuclear reactors it's highly unlikely AIP is a definate possibility if it isn't already being built into the ladas

[ikalugin]

Well there are only 6 pr. 667BDRM and 3 pr. 667BDR, did you count the pr. 941 submarines (which except one lack weapons and are not active in any way) in your "to replace" number?

In any case, there just aren't 12 pr. 955 series ordered (including the already completed subs), but just 8 in total (which make sense, as this gives 2 divisions, one in the Pacific and one in the North) under GPV 2020.

Nuclear Attack (and Guided Missile) submarine wise Russia has 8 pr. 885 series ordered under GPV 2020 (including the Severodvinsk finished), plus modernization of the Akula, Siera and Oscar II series.

Maybe there would be some further new submarines (of pr. 955 and 885 series) ordered under the future programs (post 2020, such as GPV 2025), but this is highly dependent on the future budget situation, which is not at all clear at the moment.

Hence indeed comes the question of the Victor and Akula class replacements, in my opinion it would be possible to replace those (post 2020) with new, small displacement submarines.
This is (in my opinion) possible, should the new portable nuclear powerplant (developed from 2009) be availiable, it would be possible to produce small (Lada class size) nuclear attack submarines, which should be affordable and available in sufficient numbers to fulthil the needs of the Northern Pacific fleets in attack submarines.

On the surface ASW forces, Russia has a very sad situation surface vessels wise in general.

p.s. sadly no dedicated Oscar series replacement either:
http://paralay.com/955/881_3.jpg

[Kapitan]

From what I have researched the current is active:

7 Delta IV (1 being in long overhaul due to a fire) (makes 6 active)
4 Delta III
1 Typhoon (test unit laid up plus 2 others laid up TK17 and 20)
5 Oscar II SSGN
9 Akula's
4 Sierra (1 in overhaul)
8 victor III (could be as little as 4 )
13 Kilo's (6 project 636 have been ordered)

1 Kuznetsov carrier
1 Kirov cruiser (1 undergoing overhaul and due to join fleet in 2015)
1 Kara cruiser
3 Slava cruisers
8 Udaloy Destroyers
7 Sovremenny Destroyers
2 Kirvak III (Black sea) Frigates
2 Neustrashimy Frigates
17 Nanuchka Patrol craft
23 Trantul Patrol craft
2 Bora Patrol craft air cushion
20 Grisha III corvettes
28 Grisha V corvettes
Does not include auxilaries and mine warfare vessels

Coast guard
4 Sterguschy corvette
8 tarya patrol craft
3 matka patrol craft
19 Stenka patrol craft


Now that's the main list that's active there are some 40 mine warfare vessels and auxiliaries left out, however this is what is planned as of 2014 defence papers.

6 Carriers (although cut to 2 in 2012 possibly nuclear)
No announcement has been made for the replacements of Udaloy and Sovremmenny destroyers

1 ivan gren class landing platform dock with 6 more planned
1 mistral LPH under construction in france 4 more planned
15 Planned Buyan light frigates (5 active 5 building)
8 planned Gremyashchy light frigates 2 being built
30 planned Steregushchy Light Frigates 4 active
8 planned Gepard Frigate 4 active (2 Caspian) other 6 exported
4 alexandrite Mine warfare planned 1 is active
6 planned with 4 option admiral grigorovich frigate 5 currently being built
30 Rubin patrol craft planned

It is a shame that the Oscar II SSGN will be phased out with no replacement however crew cost and platform cost are enormous, the whole unit when built is around $1.2 billion with a double reactor and crew cost of $150 million per year per boat it would make economical sense to down size.

I don't however share the same view of small nuclear attack submarines, the smallest SSN's are the French navy's rubis class I think personally if you want a small submarine your better off with AIP like the type 800 scorpene and type 212/214/218 of Germany much better value for money and has nearly the same capability as a SSN id personally see this as a way forward for many navies including Australia and Canada.

As of 2014 the Russian navy is the 2nd largest navy (in tonnage terms) in the world behind the united states what is rather strange to note despite the size of the fleet it is only a green water navy and this is due to the lack of investment in the 1990's something that is only now being caught up on.

So by 2020 we could see the Russian navy become a blue water navy once more.

[ikalugin]

I think you should recheck the active/rehaul/non combat capable statuses of the current Russian Navy, as there are no Victor IIIs active in Russian Navy (20 out of 24 where scrapped for sure, the others are non combat capable), there is one or two Victor IVs around though I think. This means that there cant be 8 Victors of any kind active, even if you count Victor III and Victor IV as one class.
Nor are there 7 pr.956 destroyers active, as those have substantial issues with powerplants. Nor are there any recent additions, such as the pr. 955 series (the subs themselves are active, the weapons issues are another matter).

I can be wrong ofc, but if need be we could look up the current lists of Russian Navy again and compare those in detail.

Where did you get the numbers for the pr. 20380 and pr. 20385 corvetes?
Why did you forget the pr. 22350?

Oscar IIs are not to be phased out (nor are the Sieras or Akulas), but upgraded with new weapons. To an extend pr. 883 submarines are their replacement, as the pr.881 was deemed too large/expensive by the Navy back in the Soviet days.

Well, you can replace the AIP unit with a portable nuclear powerplant, for example a unitary powerplant with the liquid metal coolant and magnetic pumps. Such portable powerplant has been in development for a while, and probably tested on the Sarov SSK.

Technically current Russian Navy is a blue water one at this time, as it has blue water capabilities (nuclear submarines, can outfit a decent surface action group). The issue with it is the old one - Russian Navy is split between 4 different theaters, should it be concentrated (lets say in hypotheoretical situation Russia joins NATO and thus is capable of concentrating most of it's naval forces in the Pacific) it would be fairly formidable blue water Navy in that TMD.

p.s. is it possible that your list is out of date?

[Kapitan]

I think you should recheck the active/rehaul/non combat capable statuses of the current Russian Navy, as there are no Victor IIIs active in Russian Navy.
Nor are there 7 pr.956 destroyers active, as those have substantial issues with powerplants. Nor are there any recent additions, such as the pr. 955 series (the subs themselves are active, the weapons issues are another matter).

I can be wrong ofc, but if need be we could look up the current lists of Russian Navy again and compare those in detail.

Where did you get the numbers for the pr. 20380 and pr. 20385 corvetes?
Why did you forget the pr. 22350?

Oscar IIs are not to be phased out, but upgraded with new weapons. To an extend pr. 883 submarines are their replacement, as the pr.881 was deemed too large/expensive by the Navy back in the Soviet days.

Well, you can replace the AIP unit with a portable nuclear powerplant, for example a unitary powerplant with the liquid metal coolant and magnetic pumps. Such portable powerplant has been in development for a while, and probably tested on the Sarov SSK.

Technically current Russian Navy is a blue water one at this time, as it has blue water capabilities (nuclear submarines, can outfit a decent surface action group). The issue with it is the old one - Russian Navy is split between 4 different theaters, should it be concentrated (lets say in hypotheoretical situation Russia joins NATO and thus is capable of concentrating most of it's naval forces in the Pacific) it would be fairly formidable blue water Navy in that TMD.

I had two days to source numbers and units, I do have some high connections however right now is not a good time to be asking too many questions (bear in mind im in the UK), to correct the list there are infact 4 victor III SSN's in service

I am aware of the problems with the 956 DDG's however the vessels are classified as active as they are armed and able to put to sea, wether they get there or not is another matter (currently two such vessels are at sea).

As for the project 22350 1 is active 3 building 15-20 planned (I screwed up apologise)

As for the small reactor the last lot of solid cooled reactors lead bismuth create problems when decommissioning a vessel as it tends to go solid and that means its harder to store and get rid of, but obviously that was 30 years ago and tech has moved on so while not discounting it I would still say not worth the cost, and yes probably sarov will be used in the testing.

When I said phased out I ment when they reach the end of service life ie when the unit is like 30+ years old, theres no direct replacement of similar proportions of scale to them is what I was meaning.

western analysts at the present term the Russian navy as Green water I have no idea why they maintain an aircraft carrier and have projected their power over seas in recent times.
Yet the Royal navy which now has no air craft carriers is classed as blue water.

In 2008 we saw a massive deployment of vessels into the atlantic from the northern fleet and again in 2012 although the Russian fleet doesn't often enter such areas with surface units I would still suggest its blue water capable (not to the level of the USN)

At the moment due to the political situation between Russia Ukraine and UK my information may not be 100% accurate but then again when has anything information wise in Russia ever been accurate.

[Kapitan]

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o789/trident_truckingBAV/10527346_921815321178474_3290712630140050285_n_zps 0c8ed5e0.jpg (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/trident_truckingBAV/media/10527346_921815321178474_3290712630140050285_n_zps 0c8ed5e0.jpg.html)

July 2014 during the last few days of INDRA-2014 from the deck of the slava cruiser looking at the sovremenny destroyer

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o789/trident_truckingBAV/10556925_566741933436006_631023352320485225_o_zps8 366a438.jpg (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/trident_truckingBAV/media/10556925_566741933436006_631023352320485225_o_zps8 366a438.jpg.html)

Just prior to navy day 2014 showing atleast two sovremennys with the bunting in severomorsk

[ikalugin]

I see, and I am in Russia, with all of the open (and not so open) sources at my disposal. Would you be so kind as to specify which Victor IIIs do you count as "active"?

If the ship is not capable of going to sea due to engine issues, then it is not combat capable and is not really active, is it? Overall I think there are 2-3-4 pr. 956 ships that can be counted as active, depending on the specific recent time period.

Liquid metal reactors sure have issues (mainly being the port side maintenance as they require either to be active or to receive external heating, you also need to regenerate the coolant due to the activation), but at the same time they allow portable powerplants with high performance, silent circulation pumps (as those can be made with 0 moving parts) and capability of going from one mode of operation to another rapidly.

Overall I would think that such a portable plant would be superior to the classical AIP, as it would take of the fuel limitations autonomy wise.

But they are not, they would remain in service as missile trucks, atleast they have less issues than Zaporozhie if you know what I mean.

Which Western sources? As far as I know Russian Navy is widely accepted as a Blue water one.

Well, if you require any specifics I, as Russian resident may try to clear up, using the open sources ofcourse.

p.s. still, where did you get those pr. 20380 and 20385 numbers?

p.p.s. I really do wish (when thinking solely about the Russian Navy) that Russia had it's westenr frontiers covered by a strong alliance with someone there, as this would solve most of our naval issues.

[Kapitan]

I see, and I am in Russia, with all of the open (and not so open) sources at my disposal. Would you be so kind as to specify which Victor IIIs do you count as "active"?

If the ship is not capable of going to sea due to engine issues, then it is not combat capable and is not really active, is it? Overall I think there are 2-3-4 pr. 956 ships that can be counted as active, depending on the specific recent time period.

Liquid metal reactors sure have issues (mainly being the port side maintenance as they require either to be active or to receive external heating, you also need to regenerate the coolant due to the activation), but at the same time they allow portable powerplants with high performance, silent circulation pumps (as those can be made with 0 moving parts) and capability of going from one mode of operation to another rapidly.

Overall I would think that such a portable plant would be superior to the classical AIP, as it would take of the fuel limitations autonomy wise.

But they are not, they would remain in service as missile trucks, atleast they have less issues than Zaporozhie if you know what I mean.

Which Western sources? As far as I know Russian Navy is widely accepted as a Blue water one.

Well, if you require any specifics I, as Russian resident may try to clear up, using the open sources ofcourse.

p.s. still, where did you get those pr. 20380 and 20385 numbers?

In answer to the last question the project 20380/20385 were from a few sources first janes second ITAR

The open sources are a great help naturally as stated being stuck here in the UK doesn't help my understanding

According to janes the Russian navy slipped from blue water to green water in 1993 the status of the navy has yet to be updated, many analysts use janes as a trusted source but like yourself I would put them in the blue water category

Well as for the portable reactor lets see what the tests yield and personally I think instead of the Zaporozhie buy a trabant they don't seem to dissolve like asprin and you can repair them with bars of soap and rubber product number 2 (condom if you others must know)

theres always a clash of numbers a lot of sources list 7 project 956 DDG's as active if the country lists the vessel as commissioned its classified as an active service ship (yes HMS Victory 200 year old sailing ship is still a commissioned active warship)

as for the victor III the list is as follows:

B388 Petrozavodsk commissioned 1988
B138 Obninsk commissioned 1990
B414 Danil Moskovskiy commissioned 1990
B448 Tambov commissioned 1992

[ikalugin]

Can you please site those sources? As far as I am aware of only 6 pr 20380 (included completed ones) and 5-10 pr. 20385 under GPV 2020. It correlates for example with this:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/8701
article.

How so, those sources tend to be on the net, you could use anonymisation software if some parts of it are hard to access. Or is it the language barrier that you speak of?

So Victor IVs (pr 671RTMK), ok.
Obninsk appears to still be in repairs, but should get active soon (got out of the dock in May I think).

Others are in active service with the Northern Fleet I think, but it gives us 3 subs total, not the number stated by you originally.

p.s. I appologise in advance should my style of writing appear to be over agressive, I intend no offense.

[Kapitan]

Sorry for the long delay in response, language isn't a problem google is great for that and I can speak Russian to a point although I'm probably so rusty it makes titanic look clean.
The last time I visited Russia was 2008 and I stayed there for 2 weeks in a place called Kovalevo and travelled around a fair bit, including up to your northern regions Murmansk and Severomorsk.

Sources are varied I use everything from western press to the design station announcements and also active and retired officers that are or have been in the navy, but like everything in any press what's announced isn't always what's built, take for example the royal navy type 45 12 were announced and planned but was cut to just 6 half way through the build, what I've found is Russia does the same announces X number but builds Y example being planned 24 neautrashimmy FFG's built just 3 so it is a bit of a guessing game
But I use what's announced by the Defence ministry and also the design station to get the numbers and at the moment they are all singing from the same hymn sheet but like world economics it can be subject to change.