China Is Winning the Space Race

[Onkel Neal]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/02/china_is_winning_the_space_race?wpisrc=obinsite

Don't laugh. In less than a decade, Beijing will likely be the world's most important player in outer space.

China now has what the United States lacks: a reliable manned spacecraft. The United States finds itself in the preposterous situation of depending on Russia to transport personnel and much of the cargo to and from the ISS. Underfunding and poor planning means that the same nation that once landed men on the Moon can no longer launch anyone into orbit.

China, soon to be the world's economic leader as well as the number one in space.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I'm not really surprised to hear this. Disappointed, but not surprised. IMHO, right now, China is not a kingdom divided against itself and is focused on these very goals. OTOH, I don't believe our nation (in my lifetime) has ever been more divided, and on just about every issue.:nope:

[Skybird]

I'm not laughing at all.

I think it was you laughing when I suggested this perspective becoming real within 20 years, many years ago, in some long forgotten thread. :D I think that was before the 2003 war.

[TarJak]

Its definitely not laughable. The only question will be whether their economy can withstand the pressure its under until it gets to the number one position.

[Ducimus]

Maybe it's news like this that is required for the people to wake the hell up. Personally, i think anyone who doesn't think we aren't on a slide downward is living in denial. I call it "Blind patriotism". We're raised from the earliest age that just because it's the united states we are either a.) always on the side of right or the just, or b.) that "it" (very bad things that happen in other countries throughout history) can't happen here. Why? Simply because this is America, and for no other reason. Sad truth is, we are not the greatest anymore, and we still think we are. Until we get it into our fat head's we aren't, nothing is going to change except how much more power our government has over us.

[Betonov]

They're not winning, they've just taken the lead.

When Moon was conquered, Mars was the next step. After Mars Io or Europa, after then Alfa Centauri and after that....

And never mind China, imagine the shame if my little ketchup spot on the map of a country took the lead :O:

[nikimcbee]

@Neal,

So what does NASA (Houston) do with all those buildings real estate? Are they still open and employing people? Houston has a huge campus. I'm curious if their campus is a ghost town now?:hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

And just what will China do with this new found space? Open more shops filled with low wage positions manufacturing goods for Walmart all over the world/galaxy and uncontrollably polluting the new environs at the same time?

[nikimcbee]

And just what will China do with this new found space? Open more shops filled with low wage positions manufacturing goods for Walmart all over the world/galaxy and uncontrollably polluting the new environs at the same time?

http://thestamp.umd.edu/portals/0/Images/Food/pandaexpress.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

:haha:

Delivering in under one parsecs. :haha:

[Wolferz]

If they build launch vehicles as good as everything else they manufacture, should we even be worried?:hmmm:

When they Need Another Seven Astronauts, they've got plenty to choose from.

[AVGWarhawk]

If they build launch vehicles as good as everything else they manufacture, should we even be worried?:hmmm:

Excellent point. I wonder how well their particle board rockets will hold up.

[BossMark]

Year 2020 China opens first restaurant on Mars :haha:

[Wolferz]

Year 2020 China opens first restaurant on Mars :haha:

2021 China closes first restaurant on Mars due to lack of customers.:D

[Oberon]

Not entirely surprising given how much out of all the money the US government collects actually goes to NASA.

Still, provided that it can actually get funding, here's what NASA has planned over the coming years:

http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/NASAgraphic55ann2-540x1200.jpg

A lot of emphasis is put on getting to the Moon again, and while it would be nice to do so, it's probably not as high a priority as the likes of Mars and further out in the system. Whilst it would be nice to have a refuelling station of some sort on the Moon, it would be rather akin to refuelling your car at the bottom of your drive before going to the next state/county.

But yes, China is certainly forging ahead and exploiting the gaps left by America, but Tarjak does raise a fundamental point that the Chinese house is built on sand, and they, as America did in the 1980s, may be writing cheques that their economy cannot cash.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

2021 China closes first restaurant on Mars due to lack of customers.:D2022 China reopens first restaurant in Mars as customer shipment from America arrives. Mars to Earth - oneway ticket price increase announced. :D

[Jimbuna]

Let China get on with it and if they make a success of it...copy it.

[nikimcbee]

If China was really cool, they'd be the first ones to Mars. (Manned)

[Garion]

:haha:

Delivering in under one parsecs. :haha:

"Our prices are sub-orbital".... "oh wait, so are weeeeeeeeeeeee"

Splash.

Cheers

Gary

[mapuc]

Today we, sort of are competitors to space

Tomorrow we will be in a joint cooperation
The day after tomorrow we stil are in a joint cooperation but with no money involved
(A Gene R. dream)

Markus

[Skybird]

I think that Frank Schätzing got it right in his 1000+ pages novel "Limit" when envisioning a future where the American space program is privately funded exclusively and by that step wins back (not keeping but winning back) the lead from the centralised state programs in China and Russia. Inclusive holographic Google glasses, flying motorbikes, an orbital lift, and a hotel on the moon. :up:

[eddie]

I don't see China leading in anything when it comes to operations in space. They are finally getting up there. They are doing things we did 40 to 50 years ago!

Our first space station, Skylab, flew back in the 70's, lol We have had over a dozen men walk on the moon, again the last time we were there, was in the early 70's. We have robotic rovers on Mars, we have 2 spacecraft that have been in space and still functioning after 37 years,Voyager 1 and 2. The Hubble space telescope has shown us wonderous things in space, and continues to do so. And we can't forget the ISS, way ahead of anything they have got or will get in the future.

China ahead of us in space, in a pigs arse they are!:D

[Wolferz]

Quite true, eddie. They still have a LOT of catching up to do.

They're probably hacking the NASA database right now to find out how to do it. Once they get up there, they'll probably snatch a satellite or two for reverse engineering. The DirecTV customers are going to be miffed.:shifty:

[Ducimus]

I don't see China leading in anything when it comes to operations in space. They are finally getting up there. They are doing things we did 40 to 50 years ago!

Our first space station, Skylab, flew back in the 70's, lol We have had over a dozen men walk on the moon, again the last time we were there, was in the early 70's. We have robotic rovers on Mars, we have 2 spacecraft that have been in space and still functioning after 37 years,Voyager 1 and 2. The Hubble space telescope has shown us wonderous things in space, and continues to do so. And we can't forget the ISS, way ahead of anything they have got or will get in the future.

China ahead of us in space, in a pigs arse they are!:D

Nothing says, "I win" quite like riding on the coat tails of previous generations.
You do realize that with the retirement of the space shuttle fleet, we have no manned craft to even go into space anymore right? Stack that up next to our 16.7 TRILLION dollar deficit (we're not replacing those shuttles any time soon), and also throw in that a large number of consumer goods in the US are made in china.

The writing's on the wall regardless if we like what it says or not.

[eddie]

Well cry me a river! I for one am darned proud of what NASA has accomplished through the years and nothing you cry about will ever change that! And no kidding, the shuttles have been retired? Wow, nothing gets by you does it,lol

Maybe you should do a little homework on what NASA is doing concerning a new deep space launch vehicle and a new spcaecraft!! They don't develope these things over night, and they still have to keep within their budget. Go cry to congress if you want their budget increased. NASA doesn't control that, or didn't that seem obvious to you!?!

[August]

I'm not laughing at all.

I think it was you laughing when I suggested this perspective becoming real within 20 years, many years ago, in some long forgotten thread. :D I think that was before the 2003 war.

Nostroskybird?

[Platapus]

I wish the Chinese the best of luck! It will be good to see humans traveling out of earth orbit.

[Ducimus]

Well cry me a river!

Nah, your doing a good enough job at it. No need for me to as well.

I for one am darned proud of what NASA has accomplished through the years

As am i. For what it's worth, I have an aunt that works for JPL. Remember Galileo? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_%28spacecraft%29) As a kid, I was around for it's launch party in Pasadena. I got a pretty cool hat out of it too.

and nothing you cry about will ever change that! I'm not the one doing the crying. I am however, being realistic. Reality tends to make some people cry. Are you crying? I sense emotion.


And no kidding, the shuttles have been retired? Wow, nothing gets by you does it,lol

I'm gonna hazard a guess you knew that, but was omitting that little detail whilst beating your chest about the great things previous generations have done.

Maybe you should do a little homework on what NASA is doing concerning a new deep space launch vehicle and a new spcaecraft!!
Probably. I should ask my aunt what she's been up to. Actually, i do remember her saying about 5 to 8 years ago, that they were dredging up scientists from the space race because they where the only ones with practical knowledge on how to do things. Practical knowledge the current generation of scientists don't have because its not like they can send up a bunch of rockets like back in the cold war era.


They don't develope these things over night, and they still have to keep within their budget.
Well, DUH. No **** Sherlock, where'd you park your squad car?


Go cry to congress if you want their budget increased. NASA doesn't control that, or didn't that seem obvious to you!?!

Again, who's crying here? It sure ain't me. I'm just having fun picking apart your emotional response. Reality suck's don't it?

[Wolferz]

Why are you guys fighting about this? :rolleyes:
At least we don't have to keep borrowing money from China to put people in space. Oh, wait, maybe we do. The Russians don't do it for free. Neither will the commercial space companies who are catching up in a hurry.
China better light their candle before they miss out altogether.:hmmm:

As it is now, China is extremely late to the starting blocks. So late that they can't even be considered participants in the race. Have they stolen our time machine tech?

[Ducimus]

Why are you guys fighting about this? :rolleyes:


Only reason I've been responding, is because of a pet peeve.'

People riding on the coat tails of success or victory from past generations. Eddie there, pulled the classic, "We kicked their asses" card. My thought is always, "What do you mean, we?". If your not following my train of thought, think WW2. Lots of chest thumpers like to proclaim how we saved the Europeans from the nazi's, or how we liberated the french or something along those lines.

Again, what do you mean, we? Were you there? I know I wasn't. My grandpa can say something like that. I can't. You follow what I'm saying now? I think a big problem we have in our society is that the word "We" is too liberally used when talking about national accomplishments. It's like we've become a lackadaisical society, basking in the glory and success of our forebearers but doing little to none of the same. That's not to say that nobody is doing anything, but there's far fewer Doer's, then there are keyboard commando's.

No, I do not claim exemption, only the realization.

[AVGWarhawk]

Ducimus, for every generation this is a generation riding their coat tails. Good or bad. I do not see the logic in your statement.

In short, you're nit picking brother.

[mapuc]

If I was the chief of NASA or what the highest boss is called, or the President of USA I would say this to everyting China is planning to do:

Been there done that-so what's new.

Only a serious attempt to send some chinese to Mars would wake USA(I think)

Markus

[Ducimus]

Ducimus, for every generation this is a generation riding their coat tails. Good or bad. I do not see the logic in your statement.

I don't take credit for something I didn't do, nor do i use those who came before me to boost my own standings or self image.

I have this really odd sense of patriotism, most probably wouldn't get it.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't take credit for something I didn't do, nor do i use those who came before me to boost my own standings or self image.

I have this really odd sense of patriotism, most probably wouldn't get it.

I get it but using "we" is a general term that I believe most do not feel they are taking credit. However, I believe they are proud to be associated to the past successes and is a form of patriotism. It also can inspire some to carry on as those in the past had done. But yes, certainly, the true credit belongs to those that were there. But saying them or they disassociated us from the overall picture of being Americans and having a sense of patriotism for ones country and ancestors before us. Just my thoughts on it. Everyone has their idea for things in the past and how best to present them. The bottom line is the past never being forgotten. Either with the use of "we" or "them."

[WernherVonTrapp]

I think I understand what Ducimus is saying. We can't rely on our patriotism to be fueled by the "Glory Days" of the past, and to that extent, on what others have accomplished. It's time to accomplish or rekindle patriotism in the present, based on the present state of affairs, with new accomplishments by the new generation.
By all means, correct me if I misunderstand.

[eddie]

This is the link to the article on the new deep space launch vehicle that is being built. The first stage is supposed to be 200 feet long, 27 feet in diameter.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2013/08/nasa_space_rocket_michoud_asse.html

[Wolferz]

This is the link to the article on the new deep space launch vehicle that is being built. The first stage is supposed to be 200 feet long, 27 feet in diameter.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2013/08/nasa_space_rocket_michoud_asse.html

NICE!:up:
I was fortunate enough to be of sufficient age to be interested in space and space travel and I got to follow along with practically the entire research agenda from the X-wing to Mercury to Gemini and finally capped off by Apollo and the shuttle program. The Orion phase promises to be just as exciting.:)

To our Celestial neighbors I say; "catch us if you can":rock:

[eddie]

This is what the rocket will look like, looks like a Saturn V with SRB's. It will be a bit taller then the Saturn V and will have 10 to 20% more power. Its a monster!

http://www.space.com/12941-nasa-unveils-giant-rocket-space-launch-system.html

[razark]

So what does NASA (Houston) do with all those buildings real estate? Are they still open and employing people?
They rotate people out of one building, tear it up, rip out the asbestos, rebuild it to better energy standards (they were mostly built in the '60s, after all), and move on to the next. Mostly the place runs at regular operating mode, except every other Friday, when the civil servants get Flex Friday off to reduce energy consumption. Most of the contractors are off then, but not all. (Traffic and parking are a hell of a lot better those days, and there's not a lot of phone calls or email. It's a great time to get stuff done.)

Houston has a huge campus. I'm curious if their campus is a ghost town now?
There's fewer people then there were a couple years ago, but it's been steady for a while. The big cullings of employees are over for now, since Constellation and SSP are gone. ISS still has a hold, and they're not going anywhere soon. There's always rumors (one of the civil servant bosses was saying last week that the next cuts will be from them, not contractors), and the end of the fiscal year always looms darkly. People move around sometimes, but it's still a shock to see an office down the hall suddenly lose all the nameplates.

[Ducimus]

I think I understand what Ducimus is saying. We can't rely on our patriotism to be fueled by the "Glory Days" of the past, and to that extent, on what others have accomplished. It's time to accomplish or rekindle patriotism in the present, based on the present state of affairs, with new accomplishments by the new generation.
By all means, correct me if I misunderstand.

Give the man a cigar! :up:

[Rockstar]

We went to the moon in what 1969? China is just now sending a manned space flight into orbit using borrowed technology 40 or so years later? Thats not what I would call a race.

[mako88sb]

This is the link to the article on the new deep space launch vehicle that is being built. The first stage is supposed to be 200 feet long, 27 feet in diameter.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2013/08/nasa_space_rocket_michoud_asse.html


Here's an article about the new welding process they are using:

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2013/06/nasa_unveils_new_welding_cente.html#incart_river_d efault

and here is a video of the friction stir welding process. The technology has been around since 1991 and was developed in Britain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aNbQH8XBgxQ

[Hawk66]

Rockets are not the future in space...apart from deep space missions.

I've listened to a podcast from the European Space Agency a couple of days ago...one expert talked in detail about the Space Elevator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator)

This is not a science fiction story....in the last couple of years there were breakthroughs in material research (nanotechnology etc.), which are the basis of such a rope...there are big engineering problems to solve but more or less it is just a matter of funding and setting priorities.

I question myself if it not would be wise to stop all human space missions (apart from supplying the ISS) and let NASA/ESA build this thing together in the next 20-30 years.

[August]

It would be nice if the first manned mission to Mars was a multi-national effort but I fear politics would scupper it long before they got off the ground.

[eddie]

I agree August, the price tag for that kind of mission is going to be huge! Do it like we did the ISS, many countries getting involved. In fact, Japan has a supply ship docking with the ISS this weekend, working with other countries is the way to go.

[Stealhead]

I think I understand what Ducimus is saying. We can't rely on our patriotism to be fueled by the "Glory Days" of the past, and to that extent, on what others have accomplished. It's time to accomplish or rekindle patriotism in the present, based on the present state of affairs, with new accomplishments by the new generation.
By all means, correct me if I misunderstand.


You ever read any of the Studs Terkel books? If you do not know of him he was a man who went around and interviewed Americans of every stripe you can think of about certain times in history,The Great Depression,World War II for example.He was really good because he would just interview and write what they said no cherry picking if they said something racist he wrote id they said something pro communist he wrote if they said they where gay he wrote.

Anyway his book of interviews with people that fought or lived through WWII "The Good War" he talked to this guy from the Bronx in the old day there where a lot of Italian Americans living there and this man he spoke with he described how he felt that people had changed after the war.He said that he felt that after the war people(in general) felt more entitled than they had in the past.He said that people had kind of a false pride.

Now that is not to say that everyone is like this but it seems as time goes by more and more people are feeling more and more entitled which will get everyone nowhere fast.


I agree to a large extent with Ducimus I think too many people have too much pride in the past and not enough on the current collective we have done.I can tell you that the share is not equal today for example in war to most Americans the past 10 years truly has not been a war to them as to for them it has cost them nothing directly yet you will see lots of folks thump their chests like they some how contributed with their made in China yellow ribbon yeah that really helped.

Now I am not saying it is a bad thing to look at what has been done in the past and have pride about because any nation good or bad is a collection of its people.But more people need to sit down and stop making themselves entitled on what others did in the past that only gets you to a certain point after that you have to carry the torch yourself.

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess the 4th of July celebrations should cease. Apparently we the people should not take pride. :hmmm:

As far as folks who fought or sacrificed at home during the war how should they feel? Of course people changed after the war. Who wouldn't? By your description of Terkel's book I think he saw the plainly obvious.

What in the current collective can we take pride in?

[WernherVonTrapp]

You ever read any of the Studs Terkel books?
Can't say that I have, but you used a more fitting word, one that evaded me in my previous post; i.e, "entitled".:yep:

[eddie]

Here's an article about the new welding process they are using:

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2013/06/nasa_unveils_new_welding_cente.html#incart_river_d efault

and here is a video of the friction stir welding process. The technology has been around since 1991 and was developed in Britain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aNbQH8XBgxQ

I thought what NASA is doing here speaks volumes about what we built back in the 60's. Still works after sitting on display for over 40 years!:up:

http://www.space.com/19379-saturn-5-f1-engines-test-firing.html

[Penguin]

Well I'm sure China has enough smart folks to make their space plans happen. It looks like this is the price America has to pay for defunding space exploration, a solely political question. What the "spaceflight brought nothing but the Teflon pan" crowd fails to see is that the massive funding by the taxpayer brought a lot of indirect revenue. Countless bright minds got into studying science through the events they witnessed during the early spaceflight days. Not only in directly related fields like engineering, but also a lot of the 60/70s crowd of innovative computer nerds for example got into science due to their fascination about spaceflight.

With the focus more and more on privatized education combined with an unwillingness of the US public to put taxpayer's money into education I don't see any shift soon. Put a perceived general lack of appreciation of education in today's society into the mix and we are at the situation we have now.

[Platapus]

I do think this thread is miss-titled. China has not yet accomplished anything that could be considered winning at anything in space.

A more accurate title would be that the Chinese are now a participant in the ongoing space race.

Unlike President Obama, you have to actually do something before winning the "award". :D

[eddie]

Early in our space program, we had rockets blowing up on the pad. But so has China, they had one in 1996 go off course and slam into a nearby village. It was estimated that approximately 500 villagers died in the accident. The Chinese Govt claimed the wind blew it off course. Yeah, right! So yeah, they are leading in the space race for the number of people killed after a launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_EnrVf9u8s

[Wolferz]

Early in our space program, we had rockets blowing up on the pad. But so has China, they had one in 1996 go off course and slam into a nearby village. It was estimated that approximately 500 villagers died in the accident. The Chinese Govt claimed the wind blew it off course. Yeah, right! So yeah, they are leading in the space race for the number of people killed after a launch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_EnrVf9u8s

So, what I said earlier holds true.:arrgh!:
Cheap rockets will never reach orbit. They just go BOOM!:huh::haha:
The celestials are in learning mode and will be for a long time.

At least we didn't wipe out any towns when we were learning to spacewalk.:up:

[Platapus]

At least we didn't wipe out any towns when we were learning to spacewalk.:up:

Perhaps because we were able to launch over an ocean?

[eddie]

That and a lot of our newer equipment are equipped with a self-destruct system. If it goes off course, they can blow it up before it can fall back and hurt civilians.

[razark]

That and a lot of our newer equipment are equipped with a self-destruct system.
Range safety equipment has been around for a long time. Many of the shots of early rockets exploding are due to this.