Early War IJN ASW...

[Bubblehead1980]

TMO RSRD I rarely play before August 1943 except to see the big battles in mainly because lack of convoys for most part and there generally is not as much of a challenge. I started a career out of Manila with a Salmon class in December 1941, found invasion force off Borneo, sank one ship, had multiple kills ruined by torpedo malfunctions, tracked a task force for 18 hours(not easy to do without map contacts and since early war, no radar) and finally late on December 20 1941, got a shot at a TF or two BB, four CA and four DD in south china sea.I fired four at a Kongo BB from 900 yards, two prematurely exploded, one aimed forward missed by inches after BB slowed down due to being alerted by premature explosions, other slammed into her side and left a large hole, she took a list.DD's would jump on, but soon as i went silent and hit 250 feet, aside from 1 or 2 close charges that caused some shaking, their attack was brief and not even a threat.

Was early war IJN ASW this bad? I know ASW was not a priority until they realized how many losses they were suffering in 43 and 44 to US subs(mainly after torpedo issues were worked out) but just wondering if behavior is accurate for early war? Shallow waters of course is a different story, it's dangerous no matter what stage of war.

[Dread Knot]

Was early war IJN ASW this bad?

It was bad, because the Japanese put no emphasis on it.

Japanese antisubmarine tactics were primitive early in the war and did not improve nearly fast enough for what lay ahead. Ironically, a Japanese destroyer squadron based in the Mediterranean during the First World War had gained extensive experience in the art of ASW and convoy escort, but the lessons were soon forgotten and the experience was squandered after the war ended.

Japanese depth charges were rather light, and in the early days of the war they were usually fused too shallow, allowing many American submarines to escape. Using their own subs as the model to judge by, the Japanese were apparently unaware that the more modern American subs could dive to 300 feet (90m) or more. Japanese escort commanders also had a tendency to assume a kill at the first sign of floating oil or debris. The poor performance of US torpedoes (and some sub skippers) seemed to justify these lackluster ASW techniques in the minds of the Japanese in the beginning anyway. After all, US subs didn’t sink much in the first few months of the war.

[Peter Cremer]

Japanese depth charges were rather light, and in the early days of the war they were usually fused too shallow, allowing many American submarines to escape. Using their own subs as the model to judge by, the Japanese were apparently unaware that the more modern American subs could dive to 300 feet (90m) or more. Japanese escort commanders also had a tendency to assume a kill at the first sign of floating oil or debris. The poor performance of US torpedoes (and some sub skippers) seemed to justify these lackluster ASW techniques in the minds of the Japanese in the beginning anyway. After all, US subs didn’t sink much in the first few months of the war.

The Japanese made heavier depth charges and set them to detonate much deeper after an American politician had a press conference and told the world how the American subs were getting away. The Japanese did read American newspapers.

[Armistead]

I know that group well, spawns near {i'll spell it wrong} Cam Rah Bay. RSRD will sometimes give you a flash about it. As I recall, the DD's were lackluster. Open up the 41 TF layer and check the crew ratings. Seems I'm lucky when I attack it, always heavy seas.

[TorpX]

In all fairness to the IJN, US ability in this area was very poor for the first 6 mo. or so.

[Armistead]

I found some SS of me attacking that group when I was testing my darker nights. I was able to get past the escort screen and decided on a stern shot at about 2000 yards. I shot and hauled arse. Can't recall how far I got when they hit. I also removed the searchlights from capital ships, but they shot several star shells, one got close and lit me up and they fired. I was able to get away on the surface. The DD's came, started dropping charges near where the BB fired at me, but I was long gone by then.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2013-06-23_140202_406_zps8821e119.png
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2013-06-23_140326_375_zps13c0f747.png

[Bubblehead1980]

I know that group well, spawns near {i'll spell it wrong} Cam Rah Bay. RSRD will sometimes give you a flash about it. As I recall, the DD's were lackluster. Open up the 41 TF layer and check the crew ratings. Seems I'm lucky when I attack it, always heavy seas.

Hmm, yea all are set to vet level.I attacked in moderate seas, not rough but moderate.Setting skill level higher helps some but their equipment in that time period is still pretty weak. I usually set all enemy escorts in 41 and 42 to vet or elite, they have about the skiller of one set to "competent" in 43 and 44, little less even.

One of those DD's did evade a down the throat shot in a rather expert manner.Instead of turning away, which would have allowed the torpedo to run right into him, he turned into it and watched him turn just a little to port, to allow the torpedo to skim down the side, it was very close, close enough couldnt see the wake as it blended in with the water being kicked up by the DD, was shocked it didnt set off the magnetic exploder being so close.

[Armistead]

If you want you can go into Library/AI sensors.dat and adjust ranges and heights of sonar, radar and other sensors. You can also adjust the depth charge zon and dat files for depth, explosion radius, etc. You could also adjust the Cfg/Sim.cfg lost contact and hydrophome values if you want them to hunt you for longer periods of time.

If you want my no searchlight mod, let me know. Simply removes searchlights from most capital and merchant ships.

[Bubblehead1980]

If you want you can go into Library/AI sensors.dat and adjust ranges and heights of sonar, radar and other sensors. You can also adjust the depth charge zon and dat files for depth, explosion radius, etc. You could also adjust the Cfg/Sim.cfg lost contact and hydrophome values if you want them to hunt you for longer periods of time.

If you want my no searchlight mod, let me know. Simply removes searchlights from most capital and merchant ships.

Well if its in line with history i may just leave it, may adjust it though.All ASW ships couldnt have been that bad in early war, they did manage to sink a few subs.

I wish could make realistic depth charges but its hardcoded stuff.

[Armistead]

Well if its in line with history i may just leave it, may adjust it though.All ASW ships couldnt have been that bad in early war, they did manage to sink a few subs.

I wish could make realistic depth charges but its hardcoded stuff.

What would you do to the depth charges?

Anyway, I'm sending you another IJN Radar Fix for TMORSRD.

[Bubblehead1980]

What would you do to the depth charges?

Anyway, I'm sending you another IJN Radar Fix for TMORSRD.


Well historically depth charges could not be set at any depth.I remember reading(in The Luck of The Draw by Captain Ken Ruiz) that the early war charges could be set as deep as 200 feet.Their "deep" depth in the Pollack was 250, so they took a beating from the barrage of charges, but rarely did one get close enough for a kill shot unless in shallow water or sub hadnt made it deep yet.However, they could cause enough damage to force them to surface etc. After the whole idiot congressmen bragging "japs didnt set charges deep enough" fiasco.Japanese developed a larger charge with an exploder that could be set as deep as 500 feet.This was the charge that killed many US subs.

So for realism itd be nice but side effect would be deep diving boats like Tench and Balao would never have to worry about charges reaching them down at 600 feet.Then again, it takes a few to get there and have to use speed to control boat there, could be difficult.Also, could make the shockwave a bit more effective so that if they do catch you, youre screwed.Then again, the Gato would be screwed as well.Like anything in SH 4, nothing is simple.

[Armistead]

Well historically depth charges could not be set at any depth.I remember reading(in The Luck of The Draw by Captain Ken Ruiz) that the early war charges could be set as deep as 200 feet.Their "deep" depth in the Pollack was 250, so they took a beating from the barrage of charges, but rarely did one get close enough for a kill shot unless in shallow water or sub hadnt made it deep yet.However, they could cause enough damage to force them to surface etc. After the whole idiot congressmen bragging "japs didnt set charges deep enough" fiasco.Japanese developed a larger charge with an exploder that could be set as deep as 500 feet.This was the charge that killed many US subs.

So for realism itd be nice but side effect would be deep diving boats like Tench and Balao would never have to worry about charges reaching them down at 600 feet.Then again, it takes a few to get there and have to use speed to control boat there, could be difficult.Also, could make the shockwave a bit more effective so that if they do catch you, youre screwed.Then again, the Gato would be screwed as well.Like anything in SH 4, nothing is simple.

I imagine you could get close, more splash damage than direct damage.

[Dread Knot]

Well if its in line with history i may just leave it, may adjust it though.All ASW ships couldnt have been that bad in early war, they did manage to sink a few subs.


Odd as it may seem, the Japanese sank all of three US subs in the first year of the war through direct action by ASW forces.

Shark (SS-174) 11 Feb 42 Sunk by the Japanese destroyer Yamakaze; in the Makassar Strait, 120 miles east of Menado, Celebes.

Perch (SS-176) 3 Mar 42 Scuttled after severe damage from Japanese destroyers Ushio and Sazanami in the Java Sea.

Grunion (SS-216) 31 Jul 42 Sunk by gunfire from torpedoed Japanese transport Kashima Maru; 10 miles north Segula, near Kiska Island, Aleutians. (or possibly hit by her own torpedoes in a circular run, there is some debate)

There were other US subs lost, but mostly by accidents, collisions, groundings, etc. In addition, the Sealion was sunk at pier side in Cavite by bombs dropped by Japanese aircraft.

[Hinrich Schwab]

The Japanese made heavier depth charges and set them to detonate much deeper after an American politician had a press conference and told the world how the American subs were getting away. The Japanese did read American newspapers.

Congressman Andrew J. May was the one responsible for this leak. There was a brief, but obvious spike in submarine casualties as a result of his blabbering. Fortunately, the silent service adapted quickly. May was disgraced after the war and convicted of bribery. He was as crooked as politicians come.

[Bubblehead1980]

Odd as it may seem, the Japanese sank all of three US subs in the first year of the war through direct action by ASW forces.

Shark (SS-174) 11 Feb 42 Sunk by the Japanese destroyer Yamakaze; in the Makassar Strait, 120 miles east of Menado, Celebes.

Perch (SS-176) 3 Mar 42 Scuttled after severe damage from Japanese destroyers Ushio and Sazanami in the Java Sea.

Grunion (SS-216) 31 Jul 42 Sunk by gunfire from torpedoed Japanese transport Kashima Maru; 10 miles north Segula, near Kiska Island, Aleutians. (or possibly hit by her own torpedoes in a circular run, there is some debate)

There were other US subs lost, but mostly by accidents, collisions, groundings, etc. In addition, the Sealion was sunk at pier side in Cavite by bombs dropped by Japanese aircraft.

Yea, there skilled asw crews in early war, just not as many, also some luck.Perch was in shallow waters, even green asw crews have an advantage there.Sad story about her skipper David Hurt, he survived the war as pow.Haunted by it all, he later killed himself.Believe it was called an "accident" then but read it was likely a suicide.

Shark was sunk by gunfire while on surface if i recall.

Grunion, well its up for debate.Three subs in 42, compared to what was lost in 44 once IJN got their act together.They definitely improved their training, tactics, and equipment.

[Armistead]

Bubble,

Here's my last attack. This is the large invasion force that goes near Vigan at the start of the war. It was difficult weaving through the escorts, finally split two, but one was only 800 yards away. I stayed narrow, decks awash, until he passed. The way clear, I set up on the convoy, fired 2 torps at two ships and got hits. I was at about 1400 yards. I was able to turn without being seen {thanks to no searchlights and new tweaks}

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2013-07-29_141608_279_zps4530c375.png

I ran to the other side. A few escorts got near. My broadside was open to one and he lit me up at about 1500 yards, but I was able to dive and survive with damage.

With the AI Darkernight mod, I also adjusted passive listening so they hear a lil better along with tweaking the visuals. Make sure you run it with the DarkerNight enviroment mod...Most the other previous changes remain, longer contact times, etc.

I think I got all the searchlights cut off as you requested, let me know if I missed one. As I stated, I decreased the range of the light. Honestly, I don't what would be a good range a search light would see you. I think it's reasonable, least they won't light you up from longer ranges. Just remember a near star shell can light you up just as well. I think I may increase the brightness and range of those.

Let me know if you can tell depth charge reload times are longer.

Still haven't had time to test the radar fix, if you get time test it.

Just remember when doing night surface attacks:

Stay narrow to escorts as much as possible.

Keep your speed down when close. If you go to fast, probably around 9kts, very dangerous, flank speed, very dangerous within
3000 yards.

Course, sure you know, if you attack a merchant, when you plan to escape, turn hard, but watch the speed when you give him your broadside. I don't run decks awash per say, but I keep a heavy ballast, so if I do get seen, you can dive in half the time. Get near escorts, I'll got decks awash, but not so much as the electrics come on.

Don't forget crew ratings. Most in this group are comp. I couldn't test enough, but seems a vet escort will see you about another 5-700 yards.

I think I have enough light on clouds around the moon.?



Once you're happy, I can combine all 4 mods into one and you can name it whatever you want. I'll tweak it to however you want it for yourself.