Shortage of Skilled Trade Workers

[Armistead]

I hear so much news about unemployment. Why visiting my father in Charlotte NC, read in the paper that building was slowing from a simple lack of skilled trade workers. If fact, over 3000 skilled trade jobs needed to be filled there alone. The strange fact, studies stated there were 1000's of skilled trade workers sitting at home not applying for the jobs. getting unemployment, food stamps, etc. I was shocked to find this issue existed in many states, incuding Michigan.

Course many factors are involved. One complaint is wages have decreased year after year. If builders/manufacts. really wanted to fill these jobs, they would increase wages/benefits. In the last 3 years, CEO's and corporate managers wages have increased 40%, why the average worker wages have decreased 12-20%. A bigger issue, the youth of America simply don't want to do these jobs. Many of these jobs were done by illegals who are now scared to fill them as before.

Nothing wrong with a skilled trade. I worked with my hands for 12 years before I became a pencil pusher.

[August]

Nothing wrong with it at all. A man gets a lot of satisfaction from building things. But it is hard dirty work which doesn't pay well. It's also not regular enough and the housing bubble pretty much killed job opportunity for a couple of years which is time enough for a skills gap to develop.

All the flea markets around here in the past few years have tons of used tradesman tools. Sad to see really.

[Jimbuna]

Sadly replicated here in the UK and much of Europe I suspect.

All my engineering equipment is stored in my garage but I'm simply too old to do that kind of work now.

[Herr-Berbunch]

All my engineering equipment is stored in my garage but I'm simply too old to do that kind of work now.

Flog it, buy some more diecast. :yep:

Sadly I think this is very much reflected around most of the western world. The ethics of working hard are disappearing, people think the world owes them a living for doing nothing.

[Ducimus]

Pull up a chair, I have a story to relate, and it's my father's story.

My Dad started working as a machinist in the 70's. As a kid growing up, i remember a few things distinctly. Him going to work with a United Steel Workers of America T shirt, and a lunch box. What exactly did my dad do? He worked in several departments within this company over the course of my life time, but the product itself was high speed machines, that sealed the lids of can's, with the product already in them.

Ever watch "Modern Marvels" on the history channel and they show some food packing place from soda, to canned corn with those bottles or cans moving through these machines at a high rate of speed, being packed up and off to a warehouse floor? That's what my Dad built. Those machines, and they made them from scratch.

My father's worked for this one company for at least all my 39 years on this planet. He started in "assembly", and worked his way to Foreman. This company had all the things that you associate with classic Americana. Company picnics, and retirement plans. Not 401K's. Once my dad crossed from being a Union Man to a company man, he carried with him the same work ethic he carried his entire life. The sad truth is that something has changed over the generations. The people who were in the United Steel workers while my dad was in the union, are not the same people today. Good people with strong work ethic nowadays, are hard to find.

But there's more to it then a generational degration of work ethic. But also of management ethic. Cause and effect? I don't think so. It's simple greed.

Almost 10 years ago. my father's company was bought out by some big conglomerate in Michigan i believe it is. Since that time, they have steadily dismantled my fathers work place. Parts they used to make in house, are now being outsourced. Machines they used to make, they no longer are. They have been replacing skilled craftsman, with cheap unskilled labor, and the end product is suffering for it. Companies that went with my dads company for years are now shifting their gaze elsewhere because the big corporate is clueless.

The short version of this sad story of layoffs, closed factories, livelyhoods lost, is there is nobody replacing craftsman like my father. There are no apprenticeship programs, and 40+ years of machining experience not being passed down. My father right now, is the last of a breed, and is extremly valuable to this company. So valuable they are spending 2000 dollars in travel expenses just to fly my dad to michigan every two weeks. Right now he's working two weeks on, and then flys home to calilfornia for 1 week. Then they pay to fly him out again. They are using him to try and train people to do individual tasks in a short time period. Trying to cram 40+ years worth of experience into a few weeks of training just isn't going to happen. These people are absolutely clueless. Fabricating a part that should only take 3 days, takes these people 3 weeks.

My dad is close to retirement, which is locked in and they can't take that away from him. Once he retires, a vast amount of knowledge, and experience, will go with him, and it won't be replaced. He is without exaggeration, the last of a breed.

I do not think my dad's story is an isolated incident, but one that has been happening all over, and one that will have dire effects for our country in the future.

[AVGWarhawk]

Between you, me and the lamp post, a skilled trade job for me was less stressful than my current pencil pushing job. I was a automobile technician for 12 years. Never once did a car yell at me then hang up. :)

[Schroeder]

The ethics of working hard are disappearing, people think the world owes them a living for doing nothing.
There's another thing. The ethics of treating your employees fairly are disappearing too.;)
The fat cats haul in the money while the worker doesn't know how to pay his bills from his full time job. Temporary employment only that gives you zero security to plan your life...
It's not just the evil lazy workers. It's a problem from both sides.:-?

[Armistead]

There's another thing. The ethics of treating your employees fairly are disappearing too.;)
The fat cats haul in the money while the worker doesn't know how to pay his bills from his full time job. Temporary employment only that gives you zero security to plan your life...
It's not just the evil lazy workers. It's a problem from both sides.:-?

A good friend of mine was a brick layer foreman in the 90's, made $21 per hour then, not bad in the south. Now, he says that same job pays about $16 per hour or less.

[Wolferz]

I've always found the brass tacks of the current business model to be...
Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

The chiefs falsely assume that THEY are the driving force in making the business successful and demand the lions share of the profits.
In reality...
The Indians are the ones that make the business profitable but, they get squeezed like a dish rag until they can't hold water anymore or they're making too much money. Then they get tossed like a paper towel and replaced with a noob at a starting wage, so the chiefs can get a bigger bonus.

Is there any wonder that experienced tradesmen would rather sit at home and suck off the government teat than go back to work at a starting wage?

If the chiefs had their druthers, employees would be constantly working at a starting wage.

Look at that wacky Wombat in Australia who thinks workers shouldn't be paid more than a buck a day.:stare:
She's not alone in that assessment. The chiefs fear workers who get paid what they're worth because they might strike out on their own and become competition.

Bottom line is, slavery was never abolished. It just converted to a new form.:nope:

In my entire working lifetime I've sat on enough of those tacks to provide a permanent skid plate on my arse.

[Platapus]

I would like to see Trade Schools receive the respect they deserve.

I fear that too many people assume that only poor students or the less capable attend Trade Schools.... as a last resort. After all, if they were capable they would go to college right? :/\\!!

I don't know what the solution is. But we need to find one and implement it! There is nothing "last resort" about a legitimate Trade School. Nor do Legitimate Trade Schools just accept everyone. :nope:

There are many industries where a degree is less useful than getting certifications. IT being one of them. The Frau is involved in IT hiring. A degree may get you an interview, but it is the certifications that get you hired. :yep:

A degree says that you know about something. A Trade School type certification means that you know how to do something. I ought to know, I am just finishing my Doctorate. Don't ask me to do anything. :haha::haha:

So just to throw the contentious grenade: Are unions helping or hurting the recognition of Trade Schools as a valuable and necessary contribution to our society?

[HW3]

Business started changing when they took the human element out of the balance sheet, and only looked at the dollars and cents. There used to be an intangible element called good will factored in to the financial statements but, since a dollar value can not be placed on it, it went by the wayside. That is when employees went from the asset side, to the liability side of the ledger sheet. Years ago people used to love to go to work, because they felt like the company valued them, and respected them. How many people do you know now that feel that way about the company they work for?:hmmm:

:subsim:

[Ducimus]

This day and age, with the ever increasing rise of education, and the new Student loan scam/bubble creating entire generations of indentured servants, a trade school is a VERY viable alternative to a college degree in my personal opinion. If I had a child old enough to be wondering about this kind of thing, I would push the idea of being diligent with their algebra, and get into HVAC.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would like to see Trade Schools receive the respect they deserve.

I fear that too many people assume that only poor students or the less capable attend Trade Schools.... as a last resort. After all, if they were capable they would go to college right? :/\\!!

I don't know what the solution is. But we need to find one and implement it! There is nothing "last resort" about a legitimate Trade School. Nor do Legitimate Trade Schools just accept everyone. :nope:

There are many industries where a degree is less useful than getting certifications. IT being one of them. The Frau is involved in IT hiring. A degree may get you an interview, but it is the certifications that get you hired. :yep:

A degree says that you know about something. A Trade School type certification means that you know how to do something. I ought to know, I am just finishing my Doctorate. Don't ask me to do anything. :haha::haha:

So just to throw the contentious grenade: Are unions helping or hurting the recognition of Trade Schools as a valuable and necessary contribution to our society?

Very true. I covered all my bases. 4 years BA at the University of MD College Park and became a ASE Certified Technician in brakes, transmission, engine performance and front end. Trade school offered by Goodyear Tire and Rubber, Co. Personally, I think a good trade skill is useful to have.

[AVGWarhawk]

This day and age, with the ever increasing rise of education, and the new Student loan scam/bubble creating entire generations of indentured servants, a trade school is a VERY viable alternative to a college degree in my personal opinion. If I had a child old enough to be wondering about this kind of thing, I would push the idea of being diligent with their algebra, and get into HVAC.

As of late, specialty schools are cropping up. My daughter is interested in Vet Tech. There is a school in Pitt PA and York PA that specialize in that training. No really need to attend a 4 year college. However, she is going to the local community college starting this fall. Major in English. Work on the 2 year associates then make her decision on what to do next. Transfer and finish the 4 total years somewhere or attend a technical school in the field she is interested in.

[soopaman2]

I make 20$ plus an hour with no college education.


*rubs it in*


College or computers do not equal sucess.

Some of us sweat and exert ourselves for our money, which is where this country has failed.


The desk jockeys make way more than the sweat hogs in most cases..


Then again you have not destroyed the unions in Jersey yet, where a physical man could make a living.


For now.

[Wolferz]

I hold an associates degree in electronics and I have a CDL.

No electronics jobs to speak of in my current vicinity because they were all sent overseas or to Mexico. DHS is doing their best to take away my CDL with a ton of new regs and requirements including fingerprinting at my expense and the communist state of Pennsylvania is going right along with them and are now demanding a copy of my medical card. Well, I'm disabled and can't get one of those LOL. So, the six grand I spent to get the license is headed down the frigging tubes. Thank you Shrub!

I'll spend the rest of my days parked on my backside, drawing a disability stipend and terrorizing GT.:up:

[Platapus]

There used to be loyalty. Both on the part of the employer and the employee. We can play chicken-and-egg about which side broke the trust first.But who really cares? Regardless of the cause, it is a problem here that only seems to be getting worse.

Employees don't feel loyalty to a company which can dump them at a moment's notice. Companies don't feel loyalty to employees whom they feel are fungible resources.

In my job, I have to look at a lot of resumes. It is amazing how different people evaluate resumes.

Take a person who has been with the same company for 20 years and is looking to relocate.

To me, this is a good thing. It shows me that he sticks with a company for the long term. I admire that in an applicant

To others, in my company, they don't like this. It shows a lack of initiative and a desire for staying in a rut.

Now in some industries it is desirable to have a varied career and jumping jobs shows advancement and a desire for new experiences. In other industries (mine), flitting from job to job every two years is not a good indication.

I am lucky, I work for a company that recognizes loyalty....it does not always reward loyalty but that's for another rant. :D

But then in my company, if you have not been with the company for at least 20 years, you are still the new guy and your name is not even included in the "anniversary" section of the corporation newsletter. We have tons of people with the company for 30+ years and it starts getting noteworthy when you pass 45 years with the same company. Every month we have a few going over 40 years! :o

I have been with the company for just under 10 years and I am still one of the FNGs. :haha:

However, this does not sit well with our younger employees. We have lost a lot of good talent because they were of a mindset that they should only work for a company for 2-3 years and then move on. That may work for many industries but not mine.

[soopaman2]

I hold an associates degree in electronics and I have a CDL.

No electronics jobs to speak of in my current vicinity because they were all sent overseas or to Mexico. DHS is doing their best to take away my CDL with a ton of new regs and requirements including fingerprinting at my expense and the communist state of Pennsylvania is going right along with them and are now demanding a copy of my medical card. Well, I'm disabled and can't get one of those LOL. So, the six grand I spent to get the license is headed down the frigging tubes. Thank you Shrub!

In other words, this is just a huge excuse for corporate America, to justify outsourcing.

go unionized, even if we are the modern day right wing pariah, Organize and fight, or just bend over and take it. Shareholders over workers right?


I expect no friends, too many rightwing, anti labor people on this board, they think the people that build what they drive on is worth mexican fencejumper wages.


(edit try being someone who builds stuff, then gets crapped on for doing so)

[Wolferz]

Just out of curiosity, Platapus, what industry is that and how many lifers die at their post?

[Platapus]

Just out of curiosity, Platapus, what industry is that and how many lifers die at their post?

I work for what is called an FFRDC (Federally Funded Research and Development Center), It is often, humorously and erroneously, called a "think tank" . It is one of many non-profit organizations that are funded by the government to handle such issues. By law we are severely restricted in what sorts of business we can and can't do on order to maintain our unbiased position in the industry.

We do operations and procurement research for the government. The reason longevity is so important is that much of our value to the government is based on our individual (and to some part corporate) reputation. The government is simply not going to base a policy or ops decision based on a report from someone without a proven track record. It is not fair or even logical, but it is how my world works.

Most of our work is in evaluating the work of government contractors. Contractor A is telling the government one thing, Contractor B is telling the government another thing. Government assigns us to evaluate and report back to the government.

Most of our people have Multiple Master's degrees or Doctorates as often we need to evaluate technical designs.

In some way, many of our employees die at their post. When you "retire" from my organization, most likely you will be put on a casual employment status. This is kinda like a ready reserve for researchers. When there is a particularly tricky problem, we have the ability to bring back some of these old timers who have the industry history (hell they made the history!) to assist on the problem. Then we kick them out! :yep:

It is a sweet deal and in about 30 years, I hope to be one! :D

[BrucePartington]

You guys have just described the story of my last 20 years in this neck-of-the-hood, after I completed my technical trade training in Automotive Technology, in Pitt, PA.
And I paid for tuition and all from my own sweat.
I simply should have not returned here. Proper recognition for my competence has almost always deliberately denied. I've even been tried to be made out to be incompetent.

I have more on my chest than you could possibly believe.

I may come back to this later. I have some things to take care right now.

[Wolferz]

In other words, this is just a huge excuse for corporate America, to justify outsourcing.

go unionized, even if we are the modern day right wing pariah, Organize and fight, or just bend over and take it. Shareholders over workers right?


I expect no friends, too many rightwing, anti labor people on this board, they think the people that build what they drive on is worth mexican fencejumper wages.


(edit try being someone who builds stuff, then gets crapped on for doing so)

Workers have rights? Since when? Certainly not in this state. A commonwealth that supports At Large employment practices. In other words, you can be terminated for no reason whatsoever or you can terminate your employment under the same criteria.
I'm puzzled Soopaman, What does your post have to do with what I said that you quoted? I didn't mention anything regarding unions, which I have been a member of the IBEW in the past. I didn't drive truck long enough to get into the Teamsters union. But, I probably would have joined.
I don't make a habit of leaning to either side. I stay centered, which could account for a great many of our problems these days. Too many people wishing to be left or right and wasting their time and effort drawing lines in the sand to invite conflict with the opposition. When the left and the right presume to be the only correct choice, they're both equally wrong.
My last electronics job was terminated by a large French company that bought us out and moved the plant to Mexico. We built value added cables. You may even have one or two of them connecting your hardware.:up: Yes, I built cables and the testing rigs we used for quality control and we all got crapped on by a big corporation that bought the company. They came in with the usual platitudes. Don't worry, your jobs are safe. LIARS! When my supervisor told me to start packing up the test equipment for shipment to Mexico, I was less than cordial with him as I walked out the door. He already knew what was going on and didn't have the balls to tell us. Being a borderline genius, I already knew what was going on and I wasn't going to be a party to it. All he got from me was an impolite hand gesture.:down:
The funniest part of this whole story is, my wife's first cousin was an assembler on the main factory floor and they wanted her to go to Mexico to train their new slave labor force and the crazy woman did it!

[Platapus]

commonwealth that supports At Large employment practices. In other words, you can be terminated for no reason whatsoever or you can terminate your employment under the same criteria.


I think it is called "at will employment". That concept is a dual edged sword. Some think it is a good idea, some a bad. I think they are both right. :D

I remember when I was hired in my first company after retiring from the military. I had to sign a document acknowledging that the company could fire me at any time but if I wanted to quite I had to give them 2 weeks notice.

Sure, I will sign. It is not legally binding in my state.

On the whole, I agree with At Will employment. It provides the company a venue to get rid of deadwood/problems. However, the problem is that OTHER regulations often prevent this from happening. :nope:

[soopaman2]

I simply find it vile how the bridgeworkers, roadworkers, steelworkers, Electronic workers are minimized in this modern environment.

I wasn't crapping on you Wolferz, just conveying the working mans opinion, alot of uncompassionate people who think un college educated should make minimum wage, Yes they are here. they will wake up soon.

Someone will tell me how stupid I am because I pave roads.

I been told before I am below those who went to college.

(yet I make more...Hmmmmm?)

[Wolferz]

:)I simply find it vile how the bridgeworkers, roadworkers, steelworkers, Electronic workers are minimized in this modern environment.

I wasn't crapping on you Wolferz, just conveying the working mans opinion, alot of uncompassionate people who think un college educated should make minimum wage, Yes they are here. they will wake up soon.

Someone will tell me how stupid I am because I pave roads.

I been told before I am below those who went to college.

(yet I make more...Hmmmmm?)

Thanks for the clarification of what I surmised:salute:
Paving roads is a noble and honest profession that most take for granted. At least until they have to drive on a washboard full of chuck holes.:O:

I still recall how crappy it was running a semi across I-40 in Arkansas before they finally repaved the whole thing from start to end. This included the full length of Tennessee too.:D

[Wolferz]

I think it is called "at will employment". That concept is a dual edged sword. Some think it is a good idea, some a bad. I think they are both right. :D

I remember when I was hired in my first company after retiring from the military. I had to sign a document acknowledging that the company could fire me at any time but if I wanted to quite I had to give them 2 weeks notice.

Sure, I will sign. It is not legally binding in my state.

On the whole, I agree with At Will employment. It provides the company a venue to get rid of deadwood/problems. However, the problem is that OTHER regulations often prevent this from happening. :nope:

They call it Employment at large here in the Keystone State. Not a big surprise. This state is usually the closest to last in modernizing everything. I lived here five years before they finally got around to putting mile markers on the interstates. Then they went overboard with it, placing markers every tenth of a mile. Somebody in Harrisburg has a relative in the sign making business me thinks.:hmmm:
Twenty and out guy, eh? Congrats on your perseverance.:up:

[the_tyrant]

Service based skilled trades are a great choice.

In Ontario, a plumber makes nearly the same as someone in the finance industry.

http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/report-eng.do?lang=eng&noc=7251&area=9219&titleKeyword=plumber&regionKeyword=Oakville,+Ontario&source=2&action=final


http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/report-eng.do?lang=eng&noc=1111&area=9219&titleKeyword=accountant&regionKeyword=Oakville,Ontario&source=2&action=final

However, manufacturing cannot thrive in the west in the same conditions.

How can you compete, when Asian workers work for cheaper, and actually hugely overqualified, are extremely dedicated, and is much more grateful for the same benefits and opportunities than the average American?

10$/hour is the minimum wage where I live, that is how much you pay the most mundane employees who barely have to think on the job, with no "complicated" responsibilities, and no experience. For 10 usd in China, I can find 2 university grads with 5+ years of work experience (workers are often hugely overqualified in Asia), and they will be extremely thankful if the same opportunities and working conditions that a "standard" job in the west are provided.

[Platapus]

Twenty and out guy, eh? Congrats on your perseverance.:up:

Nah, just means that I was lazy and willing to live off the tax payers.... according to some. :shifty:

[Stealhead]

Someone will tell me how stupid I am because I pave roads.



And those people most likely would not know the first thing about paving a road.

There was some of this thinking in the military if the person does x job they must be inferior grunts,grease monkeys,civil engineers,and cooks get looked down by some.I was a grease monkey so most of my friends where GMs or CEs once the people in the medical squadron decided to throw a kegger and posted flyers in the other dorms when we showed up they said we where unwelcome we used our superior strength to assault the keg take control of it and remove it to a more welcome location the MPs where called said they did not see anything choosing to side with their looked down upon brothers and sisters.

[frau kaleun]

to assault the keg

No, no no... you didn't assault the keg. You liberated it. :salute:

[Stealhead]

No, no no... you didn't assault the keg. You liberated it. :salute:


Yeah a few of those dedicated medical workers got pushed to the ground which I'm sure was likely the most violent experience of their lives a close second being high school dodge ball.Of course a few actually wanted to fight over it but they had expected everyone else to back them but they did not have willing cohorts because it was a pretty obvious insult to invite us by then blow us off just about everyone followed us back.


It was like Viking raiders "visiting" an English monastery.

[Armistead]

If you're smart, learn a trade, then open your own business. You may struggle for a few years, but it will pay off in the end.

[Stealhead]

That depends though trades can pay well but the demand is lower there is no getting around that.I work in refrigeration myself and the guys I work with we cover a good part of FL,Southern GA,South AL,and even all the way into LA.We have to go that far to get clients and some places especially your commercial and residential AC companies in particular really struggle.

Some goes for electricians I know of more than one place that has had to lay of workers or cut hours.I also know plumbers mainly small operations things are down for those guys too people simply are not building homes and small business and similar projects anywhere near as much anymore.

Some of these skilled trade jobs are in advanced fields in precision machining for example steam turbine production things like this and there just are not that many people that have these skills out there part of the problem is that people do not know about these trades at all.

The goal of college football is not to send guys to the NFL many college football and other athletes have successful careers in what they earned their diplomas in.

@Armistead yes that does happen for some people but any business venture is a risk and may or may not pay off in the long term and can be effected by numerous factors some that you can control and others that you can not.A great example are residential AC companies for over 30 years the bread and butter for these folks was new construction that has gone and may take many years to come back full swing.

[Ducimus]

And those people most likely would not know the first thing about paving a road.

There was some of this thinking in the military if the person does x job they must be inferior grunts,grease monkeys,civil engineers,and cooks get looked down by some.I was a grease monkey so most of my friends where GMs or CEs once the people in the medical squadron decided to throw a kegger and posted flyers in the other dorms when we showed up they said we where unwelcome we used our superior strength to assault the keg take control of it and remove it to a more welcome location the MPs where called said they did not see anything choosing to side with their looked down upon brothers and sisters.

Medical squadrons were almost always a bunch of weenies. My most fond memory of Medical was at my last assignment to a base CE squadron before leaving active duty. It was an exercise deployment in northern california. It rained for two weeks straight while we building hardback tents. The medical weenies would LAY there on their bags complaining, and would move into a hardback no sooner then when the last nail was set. Then they'd huddle in the hardback, and complain some more. I just have to say, goretex parka's are great. At least we weren't cold AND wet during those two weeks, just wet, and a little angry.

When i think about it, of all the deployments and exercises ive seen, I can remember only ONE medical squadron that wasn't worthless, and put up their own tents, which impressed the hell out of us. Rest of em? Worthless, whiney weenies.

[Wolferz]

No, no no... you didn't assault the keg. You liberated it. :salute:


Too right. They assaulted the snobs who were holding the keg.:up:

[Wolferz]

The medical weenies were the worst. My company wasn't allowed to clear off a bivouac site until we cleaned up all the medical garbage left there by a medical outfit who camped there before us. Ah well, just part of the soldier's daily grind.
But of course everyone is happy to see the medical weenies after being wounded or injured. :up:

Class warfare in the military is not a war you want to wage. As the company NBC NCO I used to catch a lot of crap from our line platoon guys until I suggested to one of them the dangers of pissing me off. IE: Whipping your protective mask from its carrier in a chemical environment and suddenly discovering the filters have been removed and replaced with TP.:huh:

Enjoy doing the dying cockroach dude.:stare:
Got Atropine?:smug:

[Herr-Berbunch]

. . . Whipping your protective mask from its carrier in a chemical environment and suddenly discovering the filters have been removed and replaced with TP.:huh:


:har:

Don't you need volunteers to do a two-man sniff test to double-check the all clear is all clear?

[Wolferz]

:har:

Don't you need volunteers to do a two-man sniff test to double-check the all clear is all clear?

Yup, we called them Canaries.:03::haha:

I need two volunteers!

You!--> :huh: and You!--> :huh:

:dead::dead:

MEDIC!

[Jimbuna]

Yup, we called them Canaries.:03::haha:

^ :har:

[August]

Yup, we called them Canaries.:03::haha:

I need two volunteers!

You!--> :huh: and You!--> :huh:

:dead::dead:

MEDIC!

I are also a gradumnate of the "80 Hour US Army NBC Officer/NCO Course" (83-3-NBC) and served as my companies NBC NCO for a couple of years.

Of course all us old NBC guys know that you never ask for volunteers in those situations. Regulations clearly state that the Canary has to be the most junior guy present and you first relieve him of his weapon by asking to "inspect it". ;)

[Armistead]

@Armistead yes that does happen for some people but any business venture is a risk and may or may not pay off in the long term and can be effected by numerous factors some that you can control and others that you can not.A great example are residential AC companies for over 30 years the bread and butter for these folks was new construction that has gone and may take many years to come back full swing.

i understand that better than most. The last company I had was a large commercial painting business. I started it when the large paint contractor I worked for decided to close down, but the economy was still good. My business boomed for the next four years. The last good year, I worked over 100 people and did about 8 million in total sales and paid myself over 200K. Then the economy seemed to die in months. Next thing I know multiple large contractors I worked for went bankrupt. One large one I worked for owed me over 200K on 3 jobs I was doing.In a matter of months I had to let go of all but 3 employees. The mistake I made was taking my life's savings and trying to pay everyone off, when I should've gone bankrupt like everyone else and opened up under a new name.

Still, millions lost their jobs working for others. You're always better off working for yourself. I could've gotten through it and came out, but started having health issues.

I guess I could've drawn disability or got unemployment, but we sold out and moved to my wife's hometown. It was tough, but we opened another business, a dog kennel and grooming shop. We can board about 100 dogs. No, we're not rich, but finally making money and it's a cheap town to live in and no one can fire us. I never liked the idea of another person being able to let me go.

[Wolferz]

Do you remember why it was an 80 hour course, August?

It doesn't take long to train someone to kiss their ass goodbye.:salute:

Bright flash of light----->

[August]

Do you remember why it was an 80 hour course, August?

It doesn't take long to train someone to kiss their ass goodbye.:salute:

Bright flash of light----->


Ha ha ha Stop, drop and cover! :D

[Penguin]

I would like to see Trade Schools receive the respect they deserve.

I fear that too many people assume that only poor students or the less capable attend Trade Schools.... as a last resort. After all, if they were capable they would go to college right? :/\\!!

I don't know what the solution is. But we need to find one and implement it!


You may want to check out the system in some Euro countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system - one of the few things in my country which work reasonable well. German craftsmen still have a quite good rep in other European countries.

Here, during the apprenticeship you already get paid by the employer, not very much, usually in the range between 600-800€. Which is fair, as you already provide work, but on the other hand the apprentice isn't 5days/week at the company, has less experience and ties resources.
Our trade schools (never heard an American use the word "vocational school") are paid by the taxpayer, so contrary to the US there are no additional costs for this. Private trade schools do exist, but are not very common - most private schools here focus on college education, more money to be made there.


So just to throw the contentious grenade: Are unions helping or hurting the recognition of Trade Schools as a valuable and necessary contribution to our society?

So what's the general stance of American unions towards trade schools - and if they are opposed to it, what alternatives do they propose?



In my job, I have to look at a lot of resumes. It is amazing how different people evaluate resumes.

Take a person who has been with the same company for 20 years and is looking to relocate.

To me, this is a good thing. It shows me that he sticks with a company for the long term. I admire that in an applicant

To others, in my company, they don't like this. It shows a lack of initiative and a desire for staying in a rut.


Pretty interesting to someone looking to switch careers who had been 15 years in the same company. *shameless wink* You wouldn't love to provide feedback to someone's resumee who hasn't written one for quite a while? :know:

[Wolferz]

Ha ha ha Stop, drop and cover! :D


Stop, drop and cover your weapon, you mean?.
When you went through, were they still teaching ass to the blast?
So the shock wave would rip your helmet off along with your head?


SAVE THE WEAPON!?!?

SCREW THAT! Armageddon outta here.


Apologies Armistead, we'll stop playing with the siding switches now.:03:

[August]

Apologies Armistead, we'll stop playing with the siding switches now.:03:

Lol. Some might call this a senior moment! :)

[Spiced_Rum]

Enjoy doing the dying cockroach dude.:stare:
Got Atropine?:smug:

The cure for atropine poisoning... sniff some more nerve agent:up:

[em2nought]

It's not just skilled workers, there's a shortage of anyone willing to work period. Part of why I've started to work more, and plan my exit strategy. The country is lost, time to get on the Mayflower. Might as well rename the USA to Detroit right now. :D

[Wolferz]

Where ya gonna go em2?:hmmm:

[em2nought]

Where ya gonna go em2?:hmmm:

Not sure yet. Thailand wasn't bad, except for the squatty potty. :D

[the_tyrant]

Not sure yet. Thailand wasn't bad, except for the squatty potty. :D

+1 for Bangkok, Great place, great food (a bit spicy though), great people, low prices.

I just feel uncomfortable near the ladyboys, and they appear in droves at every major convention.

[Mittelwaechter]

There is a shortage of workers who work for 50% of the regular wage. That's the only problem.
It shall commonly be solved with the imigration of foreign workers, who are used to get only 15% of the regular wage at home.

More and more automatization frees more and more workers. They are a fantastic stock to frighten those with a job. We are encouraged to work harder to make our own jobs obsolete.

Globalization puts our workers in direct competition with the Chinese worker traveling from job to job - even abroad - for a few cents the hour.
This ensures the overproportional gain of wealth for a few and the suffer for thousands.

It's called capitalism - our western religion. It's about the accumulation of money for a few - not the accumulation of wealth for the people.

[em2nought]

There is a shortage of workers who work for 50% of the regular wage.

So I offered someone work today in exchange for reducing their bill. She showed up with four kids and her husband. I payed the adults two hours each in trade toward her bill. The work I would have done myself in four hours almost got done. My screwdriver is missing. They tossed their food wrappers on my property and left a dirty diaper in my grass. I think that just about sums up the average american employee nowadays. :D