Help with convoy attack please

[pokerchiko]

Hi guys,
I feel I'm loosing my mind becasuse i have a problem with convoy attack practice mission - it's my setup that i made with sh4 mission editor.
It supposed to be a simple convoy attack training mission but it turned into a nightmare.
There are 3 ships - biyu maru and 2 nippon maru, that make a convoy; they are in the same row 300m apart.
Well i'm trying to sink two of them - the first one with slow torpedos and second with fast ones (taletoul tutorial from youtube).
But i can't sink them no matter what because they seem to spot torpedos very early and start to make evasive manouvers - somethimes i hit the first one with only one torpedo and the other two miss, but the second ship evades so my torpedos miss by a mile( I use Mk10 or Mk14).
It doesn't matter if I set their experience to poor or elite.
I am really desperate so if enyone knows where do I make a mistake help please.
My setup:
SH4 1.5
TMO 2.5

Thanks in advance,
Dario. :/\\!!

[in_vino_vomitus]

What range are you shooting from?

[pokerchiko]

First I was shooting from about 2500m then i positioned myself at cca 1700m and it's the same.

[Bubblehead1980]

First I was shooting from about 2500m then i positioned myself at cca 1700m and it's the same.

Well, daylight shooting with steam fish from distances is always a crap shoot. 1000 yards is ideal, 1500. Always use fast setting, simply fire at the one that is further away first, quickly switch scope, send info to TDC and fire.Also, aim for different parts of ship.Fire 3 torpedoes each, aim one for center, one for forward mast, one for aft mast or stack, this spread makes it difficult for them to evade all.Also, fire them 10 seconds apart.These tactics were actually used by us skippers to ensure at least one torpedo hit in a spread. Ideally, you get more than one but sometimes it happens.Example...


A recent patrol in TMO and RSRD in October 1944.Now, anyway who plays RSRD knows as in real life, by late 44 the convoys are usually large with plenty of escorts.I wanted 3 ships in one attack.That means two fish each.The outside column were small freighters but the middle column was two medium freighters and a medium tanker.I closed in but could only fire from 2500 yards 2000 and 1500 yards at targets without being detected, not ideal but close, turned bow so it was pointing at middle target(zero bearing on scope), then fired at the lead freighter(since it was moving away, would take torpedoes longer) then the trailing tanker, then the middle freighter.Of course in this shot, except the middle freighter, i aimed for middle of target, but the middle freighter, aimed one at center, and one at forward mast, assumign he would turned into me due to the range, fired at 10 second intervals also.5 of six torpedoes hit, one missed the lead freigter when he slowed, it just barely missed his bow.I went deep to avoid charges, soon could hear breaking up noises and explosions, the middle freighter and tanker were gone, the lead freighter sank about 20 minutes later(gotta love the LST mod for TMO, realistic flooding)

Basically with steam fish, get as close in as possible.With electrics, get close as well but concern is no longer their wake as they dont have one, but their slow 29 knot speed.At times cant get close, so go with what i described, a nice spread of fish to cover the target.

Also, download SH 4 AI fix, it stops escorts sonar from "always being active", meaning they are not always pinging, makes ability to slip past them a bit more realistic as they listen(passive) and only go active(as in real life for most part) when they hear something.After lose contact, go back to listening only.This allows you to slip inside the screen undetected(as was often done but nearly impossible in TMO) Idea is easy approach, but tough to get away.

[Webster]

also spotting torps depends on crew skill level so time and date matters in how close you have to be.

another thing is I have seen some members claim using brighter torpedo wakes also increases detection by ships. cant say I ever saw any signs of that but its an interesting myth.

I think the sound is whats detected and TMO increases sensors and such so they must also be increasing the detection ability of ships.

set your torps to run slower and deeper so they are less likely to be picked up on sensors and close to 1000 or less before firing if you can. also plan it out so all torps hit all ships at the same time, as soon as one ship is hit they will all change course and speed so don't give them that chance

[Bubblehead1980]

I would have to disagree they hear torpedoes, ive had them come 200 yards at night(wakeless Mark 18) and DD does not even know they are there unless they hit.Have had them miss steam fish also, because its dark or in heavy fog in daytime with calm seas, this is late war also.I believe torpedo detection is entirely a visual thing, esp for merchants.Sounds like to me he was firing from a long distance and they spotted them, if seas were calm, no fog, sun out etc.Lots of variable but never seen an indication they hear torpedoes.

[pokerchiko]

Thanks for your help guys.
I've managed to sink them both, but I must admit they spotted my torpedoes
pretty early again but failed to evade couple of them.
Can't say that I'm satisfied with my performance(all torpedoes hit at stack), but I'll keep practicing :D.
@ Bubblehead1980 : I use the method you described (Dick O'Kane's if I'm right?) but slightly different- aiming for the aft first,then middle and last at the bow. I suppose convergence is roughly the same,right? Although I must admit I didn't know for that 10 seconds rule but definitely gonna try it :know:.
Just to clear it a bit: I wait for boat to cross my 0 periscope mark(moving away,or AOB>90)then I take another stadimeter range,turn off PK,and aim for parts of the ship while updating bearing,right?
And that AI fix you mentioned - can't find the link,is it still available?

@ Webster : I set my torpedoes at 1-2m above keel,and have to use contact because if on magnet 80% of my torpedoes are duds(my mission is in '42).

@ both : And for torpedoes to hit at roughly the same time I have to set torpedoes for the closer ship to slow and for the farther to fast, or else time difference is too great.right?

[pokerchiko]

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention there are just these 3 merchant ships, without any escort and when I fire torpedoes i take periscope down(so they don't spot me) and they start to manouver only when torpedoes get closer to them,so I doubt they spotted me.

Thank you guys you are great. :rock:

[Bubblehead1980]

Thanks for your help guys.
I've managed to sink them both, but I must admit they spotted my torpedoes
pretty early again but failed to evade couple of them.
Can't say that I'm satisfied with my performance(all torpedoes hit at stack), but I'll keep practicing :D.
@ Bubblehead1980 : I use the method you described (Dick O'Kane's if I'm right?) but slightly different- aiming for the aft first,then middle and last at the bow. I suppose convergence is roughly the same,right? Although I must admit I didn't know for that 10 seconds rule but definitely gonna try it :know:.
Just to clear it a bit: I wait for boat to cross my 0 periscope mark(moving away,or AOB>90)then I take another stadimeter range,turn off PK,and aim for parts of the ship while updating bearing,right?
And that AI fix you mentioned - can't find the link,is it still available?

@ Webster : I set my torpedoes at 1-2m above keel,and have to use contact because if on magnet 80% of my torpedoes are duds(my mission is in '42).

@ both : And for torpedoes to hit at roughly the same time I have to set torpedoes for the closer ship to slow and for the farther to fast, or else time difference is too great.right?

I've never been a big fan of the various methods.I use the historical one I read about.Basically, a target would be picked, would lock a final bearing in before firing, drop scope and fire, TDC's PK keep track of target, which was the advantage US TDC had over other countries submarines.Then use the torpedo spread knob to send them to different parts of target.I use this when keeping scope up too long is a concern, such as if close to escort etc.Second, which is what I read about in O Kane's books first, Fluckey used it was well was to aim each torpedo as an individual shot.Example, you have a large tanker and plan to use four torpedoes....fire two, at different depths, to the center of target, then move scope over forward mast, send new bearing to tdc, fire, move scope to after mast, send new bearing, fire again. This is the most accurate, make sure TDC is on so it keeps track of target for AOB changes, keeps gyros on torpedo set properly.Then switch to new target, repeat.

There are many variables and even if set ups are similar, no attack is the same.Takes a lot of practice and even though, different things happen.

One thing I am working on in a mod I am creating as a improvement/add on for RSRD(TMO version) is making the new construction live fire training a bit more realistic.Instead of sinking parker's tin can, going to have player have to first track a US DD, then attack it with torpedoes but orders to set them deep so they run under target as practice torpedoes were, run under it, its considered a hit.Then for night surface training, will have a US convoy running up and down the CA coast, orders to find it and do the same.

Some limitations obviously are how to make sure player has some idea and some practice much as Captains did once the war got moving and training improved. Helps that the US ships will try to avoid the fish so youll know if you got a hit or not and need to improve.

[TorpX]

also spotting torps depends on crew skill level so time and date matters in how close you have to be.

another thing is I have seen some members claim using brighter torpedo wakes also increases detection by ships. cant say I ever saw any signs of that but its an interesting myth.


I have to disagree with the skill level part. I just did a test where crew skill level was poor, and they can still spot torps 20 to 40 seconds before impact (36kt. Mk 10).

As for visual versus acoustic detection, I don't know. I suspect neither is the case, and they simply "sense" they are coming. Otherwise, how can they avoid them on a very dark night? I guess they have Ubi-radar. On they bright side, while they can "see" them coming, they do a very poor job of evading them. Instead of "combing the tracks", they just go into constant helming mode. It is not their best option.