George Zimmerman Case.

[Armistead]

Which is why if the DoJ pursues anything, they are going to simply prove again how politically motivated they are - and the outcome will be the same as the last verdict. It is not illegal for a private individual to profile a person - either based on what they wear or the color of their skin. It is only illegal if they are operating under color of law (meaning as an officer of the state) or if they are a business.

The whole issue of race stems not from the case itself - but from NBC editing the 911 tapes.

Agreed, why it makes me disgusted every news show is bout GZ profiling. I'm also tired of the prosecution team stating there was no DNA on TM, after the body sat in the rain, was mishandled, not bagged properly, etc...

The prosecution is on TV today still calling GZ a murderer after he was found innocent. They should be sued and fired.

[Tribesman]

As for the "criminal background" of GZ, I hardly consider a speeding ticket and mutual restraining orders (with no criminal charges) comparable to intentional assault, theft and drugs. While GZ had been accused of crimes in the past, those incidents never led to charges.


Are you forgetting perjury.
Are you forgetting asking someone else to commit perjury too. That's conspiracy to pervert the course of justice isn't it.:yep:
So he isn't a criminal apart from a series of earlier criminal incidents(plus the assault he copped a plea on) and two possible outstanding big felonies to face which each carry a possible 5 year term.
So your "criminal backround" is criminal backround.
But its OK, keep painting the black fella as a nonce, its as big a stretch as your attempt about Saddam having kitchen appliances of mass destruction:har:

[CaptainHaplo]

The reason why I mentioned their criminal records is the fact that from GZ's perspective it really didn't matter if TM was a thug (as many people, or at least a few, repeated in this thread).

Here is the thing.... their pasts matter because their past actions speak to their possible and/or probable actions that night. Trayvon Martin had a history of drug use and toxicology showed he had THC in his system - enough to make him high. THC is the active ingredient in mary-jane.
He had at least one incident in his past where he was caught with burglary tools and stolen goods. We also know that the complex had suffered break ins....

So - someone who is or might have been high, with a history of burglary, in an area suffering from the same, walking along in the rain up against buildings, looking around - is likely to have been casing locations to burglarize in the future. After all - if its raining at night - do you normally lollygag and look around, or do you get to your destination as rapidly as reasonably possible?

While GZ didn't know TM's background - the actions he describes TM doing - walking slow, looking around etc - are suspicious in and of themselves. When you look at the history of TM, its downright chilling because it points to the possibility and/or likelihood that TM was engaging in activity to assist some future criminal endeavor. Do we know that? No. However, his past actions point to it being at least possible, and somewhat likely.

As for him being simply a "scared kid" - I have as yet to hear a single person deal with the facts of the case.

1) A scared kid would run the football field length home in 4 minutes - instead of not moving and getting into an altercation....
2) A scared kid would be avoiding a confrontation, not pinning a victim and using "ground and pound, mma style" fighting tactics on a helpless person.
3) Who was on top? Zimmerman had lacerations to the back of his head, consistent with having his head slammed/knocked repeatedly into the concrete. He had a broken nose from a punch he states caused him to fall down. There were no injuries to Martin other than the gunshot wound. Note, the expert testimony says Martin shirt was 2-3 inches away from his body when he was shot - like he was leaning over. Which he would have been had he been beating the snot out of a pinned opponent. For those that claim Martin was on the bottom, neither clothing evidence nor injury evidence supports that.
4) The only "racism" that occurred in this whole episode was that of Trayvon Martin, using a racial slur against GZ - as testified to by TM's so called "girlfriend".

In the end, the jury looked at the 4 minutes, the injuries to GZ, the lack of such to TM, and ruled self defense. The factors are more than sufficient to create reasonable doubt.

[kranz]

With all due respect kranz, being from another country I can forgive your opinion.


That is true.
My point of view doesn't match with a US-citizen one because in Poland we don't have rules such as "stand your ground" (self-defense must always be proportional to the threat)

You are speaking with your emotions, based on a severe skew given by liberal media. Which is being sued by the way.

nope. I'm just confused because of the above.



evidence shows GZ was being assaulted for a good long while. Not like he walked up to him, called him an "n" word and shot him.

that's the funniest part.
he followed a guy who had every right to be there.
he followed him because he thought Martin 'was on drugs and up to no good' (:har:)
he was following Martin but didn't unholster his gun and, at the same time, he was 'in fear' (his brother's words) and at the same time, a bullet was already in the chamber (:har:)
he approached Martin without warning him that he was on a 'neighbor watch'.
(that's why I asked if there are legal regulations concerning such patrols)
he got beaten by a 17 year old kid - who took him by surprise (that smells a rat)

He might be not guilty - but he should be forbidden to use gun until the rest of his dumb life. Neighbor watch....


Emotions.


with all due respect, but that's a cheap trick.
I just want to know what happened there and why GZ made so many utterly stupid decisions before he shot Martin.

[Tribesman]

the actions he describes TM doing - walking slow, looking around etc - are suspicious in and of themselves.
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:

[Red October1984]

Really? Another famous case has been mentioned in this thread. A black man was accused of hacking his ex-wife and a friend - both white - to death. He was tried and found not guilty. Then a civil trial ensued, and he was told he had to pay millions to their families.

Yes, it happens.

Don't remember reading about that one.

Obama should have never gave his "if I had a son..." diatribe.

He had no business speaking on this subject, and it shows an agenda.

+50

Your attitude has been noted by the NSA.

Why is there a van parked across the street from your house? One week to deliver a pizza?:hmmm:

Obama is listening.

Really? Let me talk to him!

HEY BUDDY! Stay out of what doesn't concern you. :yeah: :O:

Also, for the NSA...

C4, SEMTEX, GRENADE, GUN, ASSAULT RIFLE, HANDGUN, LAW, COPS

I think that's sufficient.

[soopaman2]

my point kranz, was that in this country one is convicted based on evidence and laws. The prosecution failed to meet the requirements of murder 2 or 3, and even manslaughter, beyond a reasonable doubt (Beyond a reasonable doubt is the most important phrase)

Feel free to block highways, and throw bottles at the police if you disagree. They are doing that in LA
I didn't see anyone doing that when OJ got off..

[kranz]

Here is the thing.... their pasts matter because their past actions speak to their possible and/or probable actions that night. Trayvon Martin had a history of drug use and toxicology showed he had THC in his system - enough to make him high. THC is the active ingredient in mary-jane.
He had at least one incident in his past where he was caught with burglary tools and stolen goods. We also know that the complex had suffered break ins....

So - someone who is or might have been high, with a history of burglary, in an area suffering from the same, walking along in the rain up against buildings, looking around - is likely to have been casing locations to burglarize in the future. After all - if its raining at night - do you normally lollygag and look around, or do you get to your destination as rapidly as reasonably possible?

While GZ didn't know TM's background - the actions he describes TM doing - walking slow, looking around etc - are suspicious in and of themselves. When you look at the history of TM, its downright chilling because it points to the possibility and/or likelihood that TM was engaging in activity to assist some future criminal endeavor. Do we know that? No. However, his past actions point to it being at least possible, and somewhat likely.

As for him being simply a "scared kid" - I have as yet to hear a single person deal with the facts of the case.

1) A scared kid would run the football field length home in 4 minutes - instead of not moving and getting into an altercation....
2) A scared kid would be avoiding a confrontation, not pinning a victim and using "ground and pound, mma style" fighting tactics on a helpless person.
3) Who was on top? Zimmerman had lacerations to the back of his head, consistent with having his head slammed/knocked repeatedly into the concrete. He had a broken nose from a punch he states caused him to fall down. There were no injuries to Martin other than the gunshot wound. Note, the expert testimony says Martin shirt was 2-3 inches away from his body when he was shot - like he was leaning over. Which he would have been had he been beating the snot out of a pinned opponent. For those that claim Martin was on the bottom, neither clothing evidence nor injury evidence supports that.
4) The only "racism" that occurred in this whole episode was that of Trayvon Martin, using a racial slur against GZ - as testified to by TM's so called "girlfriend".

In the end, the jury looked at the 4 minutes, the injuries to GZ, the lack of such to TM, and ruled self defense. The factors are more than sufficient to create reasonable doubt.
you have a point there.
My turn: (I hope you will forgive me these parts in which I 'assume' something rather than prove it or support it with an evidence - since your argument that their pasts are relevant to the pre-shooting and shooting is based on a sheer assumption)
- Zimmerman made 46 calls reporting suspicious activity.
wow, seems like the guy stayed on alert most of the time
- Zimmerman used police jargon (holster etc...) Perhaps he was an over-zealous (actually he was - 46 calls) self-made Wild West sheriff who tried to apprehend a suspiciously-looking Martin disregarding the order to stay put
- Zimmerman was accused of both domestic violence and sexual abuse. Plus he had to undertake alcohol education program. Years later he takes part in a neighbor watch chasing people in the rain whom he thinks are "suspicious".
Alcohol, violence, molesting children. THIS GUY IS NOT SUSPICIOUS A BIT!!!

In before "but he was never sentenced because of that" - Martin didn't do anything illegal that day, wasn't caught red-handed by Zimmerman, had no burglary tools with him.
- an A-grade student who doesn't know the "stand your ground rule"

To sum up:
his story is a lie. He followed Martin in an attempt to take his scalp before the local police. (you can replace it with 'to sexually abuse him' since according to CaptainHaplo 'their pasts matter'
He was aggressive ('these a-word always get away')which provoked Martin. (talking by the phone - NOT hiding in the bushes.
Martin retaliated in self-defense.
GZ had no other choice - having been knocked down and punched in the face - but to 'unholster his gun and kill Martin' and later on lie that it was self-defense.

Seems legit, doesn't it?

[mookiemookie]

While GZ didn't know TM's background - the actions he describes TM doing - walking slow, looking around etc - are suspicious in and of themselves. When you look at the history of TM, its downright chilling because it points to the possibility and/or likelihood that TM was engaging in activity to assist some future criminal endeavor. Do we know that? No. However, his past actions point to it being at least possible, and somewhat likely.

Note: Thought crime is grounds for punishment in Haplo's world. It's downright chilling because "well he coulda woulda maybe, but he didn't, but he COULD HAVE!" Living your life in that much fear must get old.

Also, "scared kids" only act one way and they deserve to die if they don't follow the Haplo Checklist of Being Scared.™

Here's a hint: The movie Minority Report wasn't meant to be a blueprint for the justice system. :doh:

[Ducimus]

20 pushups it is! :up:

No proof needed, you can even make someone else do them. :haha:

I would rather win the powerball lotto myself.:O:

Looks like I owe you 20.

Like you could do 20 legit push ups. I want it on video.


Last I weighed myself a couple days ago, the scale said 188 pounds. I don't think i'll have a problem.

Truth be told, I had an alterior motive for pushups. My rifle is 11.2 pounds with an empty magazine, and I intend to take it out and recalibrate my iron sights and scope on it. (recently did some work on it, so its all out of whack now) With an M1A, you have to be in shape. I figured the 20 I owe soopman2 would get my ass back into my old routine of doing 20 pushups at various points throughout the day. It's hard starting, not so hard to stick with if you stick with it, but stop, and my lazy nature takes over.

[Sailor Steve]

Don't remember reading about that one.
Orenthal James Simpson?

[Bubblehead1980]

you have a point there.
My turn: (I hope you will forgive me these parts in which I 'assume' something rather than prove it or support it with an evidence - since your argument that their pasts are relevant to the pre-shooting and shooting is based on a sheer assumption)
- Zimmerman made 46 calls reporting suspicious activity.
wow, seems like the guy stayed on alert most of the time
- Zimmerman used police jargon (holster etc...) Perhaps he was an over-zealous (actually he was - 46 calls) self-made Wild West sheriff who tried to apprehend a suspiciously-looking Martin disregarding the order to stay put
- Zimmerman was accused of both domestic violence and sexual abuse. Plus he had to undertake alcohol education program. Years later he takes part in a neighbor watch chasing people in the rain whom he thinks are "suspicious".
Alcohol, violence, molesting children. THIS GUY IS NOT SUSPICIOUS A BIT!!!

In before "but he was never sentenced because of that" - Martin didn't do anything illegal that day, wasn't caught red-handed by Zimmerman, had no burglary tools with him.
- an A-grade student who doesn't know the "stand your ground rule"

To sum up:
his story is a lie. He followed Martin in an attempt to take his scalp before the local police. (you can replace it with 'to sexually abuse him' since according to CaptainHaplo 'their pasts matter'
He was aggressive ('these a-word always get away')which provoked Martin. (talking by the phone - NOT hiding in the bushes.
Martin retaliated in self-defense.
GZ had no other choice - having been knocked down and punched in the face - but to 'unholster his gun and kill Martin' and later on lie that it was self-defense.

Seems legit, doesn't it?

That has to be the most far fetched version I have heard, there is no evidence to support that theory.

I realize you are from Poland so will lay it out for you. The US has a lot of young guys, black, white, brown, yellow who want to be "tough", they want to act like "gangstas" etc .Trayvon Martin was a trouble maker, a wannabe thug.Don't let the common file photo used by the press fool you(has was 13 in that pic, 17 at time of this incident), plenty of other photos of him throwing out the gang signs and "mugging" for the camera have been circulated. Martin's attitude that night was clearly described by his whale of a girlfriend who testified(what was the pros thinking putting her on the stand? lol) that Trayvon said that a "creepy ass cracker" was watching him.

Martin was in Zimmerman's neighborhood, which had suffered burglaries etc.I remember we had a break in once in my neighborhood growing up and for a while, every time a stranger was in, someone called the cops.Very white suburban reaction sure, but warranted guaranteed what happened.Zimmerman's only fail that night was being so overt in his watching of Martin, he should have called and kept his distance.However, he committed no crime and did nothing to warrant being attacked, in fact I believe Zimmerman was back at his vehicle or near it, as he had ceased following at the behest of the 911 operator when Martin came up and attacked the "creepy ass cracker".

Simply, Zimmerman's story(backed by the evidence) is more logical and makes more sense, a wannabe 17 year old thug, which a racial mentality(demonstrated by his cracker comment) chose to attack someone, he rolled the dice and lost.This a tragedy? Sure, perhaps if Trayvon had survived, maybe it would have been a lesson to him and he would have turned out to be a decent human being instead of a piece of trash but he gambled and lost, just how the cookie crumbles so to speak.

Beyond all that, the big picture here is that the state of florida abused it's power prosecuting Zimmerman, he was cleared by the State Attorney in Sanford.After the ignorant masses got involved, the law was ignored and racial politics took over , the special prosecutor appointed attempted to legally lynch Zimmerman but they had no case, so they lost.

[Tchocky]

You're really impervious to criticism, aren't you?

[Tribesman]

Martin was in Zimmerman's neighborhood
Errrrrrr...sorry to burst your weird bubble bubbles, but Martin was in the neighbourhood where his father resides, that makes it the Martin neighbourhood.:doh:

[MH]

In fact if you look a the two persons criminal history Zimmerman has the worse record assault on a police officer that is pretty serious he got pre-trail intervention which means basically you plead guilty and where placed on probation for a certain time span after that you are clear but your record still is seen by LE and they will know that you showed violent behavior towards a LE officer in the past.You could get prison time for assault on an LE.

Like I said before my problem with GZ is that he placed himself willingly in a situation he claims to have felt was hazardous when he very easily could have gone home he knew that the police where coming why place yourself in possible danger for no reason.If TM had walked up to his car and tossed him out and attacked him that would be true self defense but following someone into danger when you have every option not to enter a bad situation is just asking for trouble and that is what happened.

It is very possible that TM did attack GZ but GZ placed himself willingly into the situation if he had gone home or even stayed in his vehicle nothing would have happened.

It most likely really was "self defense" but only becuase one person placed themselves in a place they had no need to if they as GZ claimed "felt that they where danger".

:yeah:

Great post.:salute:

...two idiots had met each other and one of them had a gun.

[BossMark]

The very best definition of irony?

George Zimmerman is afraid to leave home, as he is worried someone might take the law into their own hands.

[Father Goose]

Civil Rights Violations? Really?

What happens if a black man shoots a white man? Nothing.

Black man shoots black man? Nothing.

3 Hispanics dead in shooting by Black man? Nothing.

White man shoots a black man? Well....GZ found out what happens.

Really? Another famous case has been mentioned in this thread. A black man was accused of hacking his ex-wife and a friend - both white - to death. He was tried and found not guilty. Then a civil trial ensued, and he was told he had to pay millions to their families.

Yes, it happens.

Allow me a moment to try to clarify what I've been reading. :timeout:

Steve, I believe you're referring to the civil case that the Goldman family filed against O.J. Simpson. In defense of Red, I believe he is talking about something entirely different and that is the criminal "civil rights" charges the DOJ is currently reviewing. Totally different.

Remember this is all about politics. Obama and the DOJ want to do everything they can to keep Zimmerman on the front page because as soon as this is over it's back to the DOJ and IRS scandals. Bill Clinton and his DOJ never entertained filing charges against O.J. Simpson back in the 90s. Shows how much this country has declined in 18 years. :nope:

[Ducimus]

The very best definition of irony?

George Zimmerman is afraid to leave home, as he is worried someone might take the law into their own hands.


There is no Irony, because he is screwed no matter what the Jury decided.

If they decided guilty, the "homies" already in prison would be looking for a piece of his ass.

If they decided innocent, the "homies" not yet in prison would be looking for a piece of his ass.

Bottom line, Killing zimmerman = street cred. Regardless if he is truly Innocent or not. The reality is, and I've sad it before, i know it sounds racist, but there simply is no other way to say it but: "You mess with one bean, you get the whole burrito". Trust me I know. Been there, done that. Found out about it at an early age, and It's not fun .

Zimmerman's only hope for a normal life is to move out of Florida, away from any heavily urbanized area's, and lay very low. Like change his name or something. He'll have to look over his shoulder the rest of his life otherwise.

[Tchocky]

I'm just going to use the "homies" and "urbanised" a lot until people get what I'm talking about.

EDIT - I honestly thought this thread couldn't get more depressing.

[Ducimus]

I'm just going to use the "homies" and "urbanised" a lot until people get what I'm talking about.

EDIT - I honestly thought this thread couldn't get more depressing.

GANGS, and Thug culture. Of course, if one never dealt with either of those growing up, you probably wouldn't understand the situation. Race is irrelevant. I've seen gangs of every color. Gangs typically form around a racial identiy, but a gang, is a gang, is a gang.

EDIT:
And in case you haven't figured it out, I hate gangs, and the whole "Thug life" that is popularized in Urban culture.

[Tchocky]

GANGS, and Thug culture. Of course, if one never dealt with either of those growing up, you probably wouldn't understand the situation. Race is irrelevant. I've seen gangs of every color. Gangs typically form around a racial identiy, but a gang, is a gang, is a gang.



I'm not convinced you think race is irrelevant considering your previous post has the old "I'm not trying to sound racist" bit.

[Ducimus]

I'm not convinced you think race is irrelevant considering your previous post has the old "I'm not trying to sound racist" bit.


You know what....

I don't care. You can think what you want. Makes no difference to me. Ill come out and get even more nasty since you want to push the issue.

Black gangs. Yup, seen em. Not everyone black is in a gang, some of my best friends were black growing up.

Asian gangs. Yup, seen those too. Phillipino gangs mostly. Not every asian is a gang banger, but asian gangs, don't mess. You mess, your in for a world of hurt.

White gangs. Yup, seen those too. There not much different then Mexican gangs.

Mexican gangs. You know what, growing up, I only knew ONE mexican dude that was NOT in a gang. Later on, he ended up joining one too. 9 out of 10 mexican's is a banger.

So there you go, since I hate gangs, and 9 out of 10 Mexican's that I've ever seen was a gangbanger, I obviously hate mexicans! WHoooooooo scary.

So now then, what you gonna do about it? Cry? Report me? Go ahead. But the way I see it, I'm correct on what Zimmerman faces, and I also think that unless youve had to deal with this kind of crap growinig up, you were probably well sheltered and don't have a clue what it's like to have all these people you didn't even talk to, have met, or personnaly knew, after you - all because you got into an argument with ONE dude, who thereafter, sent his "homies" after you. All of them armed with bats, fist bats, chains, kinives, and yes, guns. While I'm on that subject, imagine how every day you have to change your daily habits, as to not establish a set pattern to make it harder for them to find you. Never go home the same way. Never walk down the same streets, and always looking over your shoulder, and always on edge because your scared that one of those days, they'll get lucky and find you.

You know what...
I don't think you have a clue about any of this.

[BossMark]

Personally, I was sickened that George Zimmerman wasn't found guilty.

I was really looking forward to all the 'Zimmer Framed' jokes on the web. :haha:

[Stealhead]

While supporting your post in general I think the evidence says that both of them did this.

Zimmerman for following and Martin for turning back and laying in wait for him.


Sorry, I wrote that pretty late at night I personally feel that the whole thing probably was an example of two persons seeing the other as a threat.

Complete speculation here but I think that TM had seen GZ follow him and not knowing who has was concerned.GZ felt that TM was up to something and was following him.I think what happened is that TM thought he lost GZ and then was confronted by him or that TM saw that GZ was following and then waited and was going to ask him why he was following him.

After that what caused the confrontation god only knows did TM just strike out or did GZ attempt to detain him physically who knows but somehow a fight started and during that fight GZ shot TM. I have to say I think most people would agree if a complete stranger attempted to restrain me I am would take the necessary action to get away from then not kill them per say but they gonna be in the dirt and need to take a few aspirin and need an icepack.

[Ducimus]

Just making my 12,300 post before Tchocky's offended sensibilities reports me for making "racial comments", and the probable summary keelhauling (again).

Weee, digital rollover. I'm feeling so apologetic. :roll:

[AVGWarhawk]

Deep breaths and reading other threads might be in order instead. :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I only have one question. How is
"creepy ass cracker"
any different from
whale of a girlfriend
If the one marks him as a racist then the other marks you as a misogynist.

You are just as biased and self-absorbed as ever. What makes you any better than those you regularly condemn?

[Bilge_Rat]

Hey, what did I miss??? :Kaleun_Binocular:

Ha, same old, same old...


well... be back in six months then...



:lurk:

[Ducimus]

Deep breaths and reading other threads might be in order instead. :up:

Indeed.

I have nothing for or against Tavon or Zimmerman. I'm not saying Tavon was a gang banger, though he may have known some. Bottom line is, Zimmerman killed a 17 year old black kid, and black people from all over are going to see that as "whitey shooting one of us". Gangs are typically formed along racial lines. The dude who puts Zimmerman in a pine box is going to be looked up to, the math here isn't very hard. Guilty or not guilty, he was going to have the same problem. The only difference is, his odds of survival are alot higher with not guilty because he can still skip town. In prison there's no where to run.

[Jimbuna]

Just making my 12,300 post before Tchocky's offended sensibilities reports me for making "racial comments", and the probable summary keelhauling (again).

Weee, digital rollover. I'm feeling so apologetic. :roll:

Apology accepted :O:

But seriously guys debating is great and no harm no foul is even better.

[CaptainHaplo]

you have a point there.
My turn: (I hope you will forgive me these parts in which I 'assume' something rather than prove it or support it with an evidence - since your argument that their pasts are relevant to the pre-shooting and shooting is based on a sheer assumption)

Easily forgiven - consider it done.

- Zimmerman made 46 calls reporting suspicious activity.
wow, seems like the guy stayed on alert most of the time

Actually, your wrong on this one. While he did make 46 calls to the police over an 8 year period - an average of 1 call every 2 -3 months - only 17 of them were for "suspicious activity". The rest ranged from reporting potholes to drunks walking the street - and even requesting help to get a strange pit bull out of his own garage. While the number may qualify him for a "nosey neighbor award", it hardly is condemning. Note that of the 17 "suspicious activity calls, 2 of them were calls regarding the situation that turned deadly for TM. So call it 15 - and of those, 5 were directly related to the neighborhood watch program that formed after recent burglaries.

- Zimmerman used police jargon (holster etc...) Perhaps he was an over-zealous (actually he was - 46 calls) self-made Wild West sheriff who tried to apprehend a suspiciously-looking Martin disregarding the order to stay put

Ok - what exactly would you call that thing you put your gun in? "Holster" is hardly "police jargon". Calling something by its name is hardly proof of anything. The 46 calls has already been demonstrated as false - and if he were going to try and apprehend Martin - why did he call the cops 2x beforehand - when he (having taken that criminal justice course, remember) would know that doing so would get him into trouble - and there is no evidence to support such a claim.

- Zimmerman was accused of both domestic violence and sexual abuse. Plus he had to undertake alcohol education program. Years later he takes part in a neighbor watch chasing people in the rain whom he thinks are "suspicious". Alcohol, violence, molesting children. THIS GUY IS NOT SUSPICIOUS A BIT!!!

So let me get this straight... GZ was accused by an ex - and nothing came of it. If accusations from an ex were worth anything, I wouldn't have custody of my 13 yr old son. So try harder on that one. Next, he was accused of sexual abuse (and racism) by the so called "witness 9" - who if you notice was so discredited that the prosecution didn't even put her on the stand. What does that tell you about her "story"? As for the alcohol incident, ok so worst case at one time he may have had an alcohol problem - 10-20% of men and 5-10% of women in the US would qualify at some point in their life to that diagnosis - should we just consider 1 out of every 5 men to be "suspicious"? Not to mention - GZ was not intoxicated or on drugs when the shooting happened - unlike TM who had THC in his system.

So for a moment put yourself in each person's shoes. First, GZ - your out in a gated community that has suffered a rash of break-ins to the point that the community organized a neighborhood watch. You see an unknown, 6 foot tall individual, dressed in clothing associated with the perpetrators of previous burglaries, walking slow and looking around in the dark and pouring rain. As a member of the neighborhood watch - someone that your neighbors have ASKED to be on the lookout for them - as they will be for you - are you saying its unreasonable to consider that suspicious? After calling the cops, this 6' tall person you have never seen before - and remember - gated community - starts dodging between buildings - which would appear like he is trying to get out of your sight. Another call to the cops.

Now on to TM. First off, he walks to the 7-11 and gets his skittles and tea - leaving the store with "cash in hand". But then he hangs out for 4 minutes - while three other guys go in, one buys two blunts and walks out. TM is seen minutes later leaving the scene and saying something (apparently a see ya) to the guy who got the blunts - but his cash is not found. Funny - blunts are often hollowed out and then repacked with MJ - which TZ had in his system. Coincidence? Remember - that was all on video. Now, TZ heads home - in the pouring rain. The store is .6 miles from his father's residence - and the average person walks 2-3 miles per hour. Yet it takes over 40 minutes for TM to be in the community and be noticed by GZ. Of course - if he stopped for a smoke it would make more sense..... Anyway, during that 40+ minute walk, TM has spent 18 minutes on the phone with "DeeDee" - the gf who he had been arguing with over the course of the day. In fact, his texts to here were described as "hostile" - even up to the point of his phone call with her. So we do have some idea as to TM's state of mind, as shown by his texts. He was PISSED OFF. So he notices this "creepy ass cracker" watching him. So he ducks between buildings. Why? He is doing nothing wrong - or is he? He tells his gf on the phone that he is going home and gets off the phone with her. At this point - he is within a football field of his destination - and yet 4 more minutes are unaccounted for. During that time, does Martin - who is supposedly innocent of anything - just go on about his business? If he had - he would have been home in under 60 seconds. But he didn't - and 4 minutes later he ends in a confrontation with GZ.

Now - lets look at a couple of facts. When the police dispatcher asked GZ if he was following Martin - GZ said yes. The dispatcher told him he didn't need to do so - and GZ responded "ok". He then stated (about 1 minute later) he didn't know where Martin had gone - clear indication he had ceased to follow Martin (as he had just reported Martin was running).

If GZ had been out to "kill the black kid" or "take the law into his own hands" or "be a vigilante" - he wouldn't have called the cops to start with. Really - I mean they guy is going to call the cops on himself? As for "scalping" or "sexually abusing" him - if every sicko called the cops to come to the scene before they did that, it would be a lot easier to catch em.

He followed Martin in an attempt to take his scalp before the local police. (you can replace it with 'to sexually abuse him' since according to CaptainHaplo 'their pasts matter'

All while on the phone with the cops trying to get them there? Yea, ok. That one doesn't wash.

He was aggressive ('these a-word always get away')which provoked Martin. (talking by the phone - NOT hiding in the bushes.
Martin retaliated in self-defense.

So even though his tone did not suggest hostility (which you would know if you had heard it or watched the testimony), Trayvon Martin was "retaliating in self defense" by using his fists for GZ calling him an "a-hole"? And you feel that is justifiable self defense? Gee - anyone ever call you a name before?

Not to mention that GZ was in his vehicle at the time he said that - so no way TM heard him say it. Again - it doesn't hold water.

A lot of your statements are based on conjecture that isn't supported by evidence - either video (as in the 7-11 video and timestamps), the texts that night by martin (not to even mention the other stuff on his phone), the drugs in his system, the crime scene evidence or the 911 tape.

I don't mind an alternative theory - but you REALLY need to be up on the FACTS before you start throwing them out there - otherwise your doing little more than what you accuse GZ of doing - jumping to conclusions. Thankfully - its doubtful you doing so will end with someone dead.

[Tribesman]

You know what...
I don't think you have a clue about any of this.
I think your post provides plenty of clues why you like them rural white gangs you post links to.
not of course suggesting that all militias are thugs who revel in glorifying their gun culture.

and remember - gated community
remember Haplo ,gated community where he was staying with his father.


Sadly some comments through this topic remind me of my racist uncle making a dick of himself by grabbing one of his huge collection of guns and going out on the porch because there was a black man walking in the court:nope:
Silly bugger thought that people with dark skin had no business at all being in his little gated community of mainly ex-cops

[Onkel Neal]

Look, a Hispanic guy with a Jewish name shot a black man, can we just find a way to punish him so we can go back to American Idol?

[Bubblehead1980]

:yeah:

Great post.:salute:

...two idiots had met each other and one of them had a gun.

Really, if Zimmerman had actually assaulted a cop, he would not have gotten a deal in FL. When I worked at a firm we had a client who was charged with battery on a LEO, well the "battery" occurred when the cop pulled client off another guy who attacked him, boy in blue got his feeling hurt when the guy, in the moment, broke loose from the cop, cop claimed he was struck in the face before client stopped when he realized it was a cop. Charge should be called contempt of cop as "resisting without violence" is often jokingly referred to in florida.LEO's arbitrarily charge a lot of people when they get their egos bruised.I assure you if there was veracity to that charge Zimmerman would have went to prison and not a deal, he took the deal as it was probably the best guaranteed outcome.

Martin was a punk who picked a fight because he didnt like being followed.Zimmerman should not have followed but it in no way warranted Martin attacking him and in no way warranted his prosecution, esp given florida law protected him as the police and state attorney correctly concluded in the first place.Facts are stubborn things.

[Red October1984]

Truth be told, I had an alterior motive for pushups. My rifle is 11.2 pounds with an empty magazine, and I intend to take it out and recalibrate my iron sights and scope on it. (recently did some work on it, so its all out of whack now) With an M1A, you have to be in shape. I figured the 20 I owe soopman2 would get my ass back into my old routine of doing 20 pushups at various points throughout the day. It's hard starting, not so hard to stick with if you stick with it, but stop, and my lazy nature takes over.

:o

What do you have on that thing to make it 11.2 pounds?!?! Either you have a lot of stuff added onto it or I don't realize how heavy a gun is. :hmmm:

Orenthal James Simpson?

Right..... I'm an idiot. :oops:

Shows how much this country has declined in 18 years. :nope:

And it's going to keep getting worse... I hate thinking like that but it's true. You see all these little kids out here and you think "They will never have a life like children 30 years ago. They won't know the American Dream like we think of it"

Look, a Hispanic guy with a Jewish name shot a black man, can we just find a way to punish him so we can go back to American Idol?

That is one of the funniest things I've heard in the last week. :har:

[Nippelspanner]

Martin was a punk who picked a fight because he didnt like being followed.Zimmerman should not have followed but it in no way warranted Martin attacking him and in no way warranted his prosecution, esp given florida law protected him as the police and state attorney correctly concluded in the first place.Facts are stubborn things.

How the hell do YOU know? How do you know that Martin was not attacked by Zimmerman first? How do you know that Zimmerman did not do something that made Martin lose his temper? How do you know anything at all about this if no one was there except Zimmerman and Martin, first one being the only survivor and the one who has to face court for possible manslaughter?

RIGHT! You don't! Well - just shut it then maybe!?

State your opinion, what you think or believe. But don't make CLAIMS you can't back up!

[Ducimus]

:o

What do you have on that thing to make it 11.2 pounds?!?! Either you have a lot of stuff added onto it or I don't realize how heavy a gun is. :hmmm:
:

Most rifles are not that heavy. This one is, with nothing fancy on it whatsoever. Just an M1A in the classic configuration. The weight I think comes from the walnut stock, cleaning kit in buttstock, M1907 leather sling and, 20 round box magazine. Also the barrel is a medium weight national match barrel. Most "gun guys" will tell you this is "A Man's rifle", I'm guessing because of the weight. Shooting standing unsupported, with, or without using the sling (loop or hasty), will tire you out after awhile.

[Red October1984]

Most rifles are not that heavy. This one is, with nothing fancy on it whatsoever. Just an M1A in the classic configuration. The weight I think comes from the walnut stock, cleaning kit in buttstock, M1907 leather sling and, 20 round box magazine. Also the barrel is a medium weight national match barrel. Most "gun guys" will tell you this is "A Man's rifle", I'm guessing because of the weight. Shooting standing unsupported, with, or without using the sling (loop or hasty), will tire you out after awhile.

Ah...yeah...I'm used to shooting stuff with light wood or synthetic stocks.

M1A's are nice guns. It's probably be a pretty darn good hunting rifle if you had a magazine that holds 10 or less. I'd like to shoot one someday.

What caliber do you have it in? 7.62x51?

If I had one I'd probably get the SOCOM Model and make it tactically awesome. :yeah: :woot: They are relatively expensive though...around 2K.

My friend's Dad has an M1 Garand that he wants to take me out and shoot sometime. It's actually pretty light and shorter than I thought it would be.

Classic rifles are great. :sunny:

[nikimcbee]

Look, a Hispanic guy with a Jewish name shot a black man, can we just find a way to punish him so we can go back to American Idol?

You watch American Idol?:hmmm:

[CaptainHaplo]

Actually - that claim is reasonably made based of the timeline. If TM didn't start it, GZ had to have done so. For Zimmerman to have started the altercation relies on ignoring 3 important facts.

First - GZ called the cops. He has no idea when the cops are going to get there - the 911 dispatcher does not give him any kind of specifics on this. So to start the altercation runs the risk of the cop witnessing him attacking TM first. If he - as some claimed - pulled his gun on TM - he ran the risk of getting caught by the cops showing up.

Second - TM is significantly larger than GZ and in much better shape. TM was at least 4" taller than GZ - some reports have it at a 6" difference. GZ was in horrible shape - one trainer rated GZ at a .5 on a 1 to 10 scale.... TM on the other hand was a football player.

Third - and most importantly - there were NO injuries on TM other than the gunshot wound - except for a small abrasion on his ring finger from punching GZ. If GZ had thrown the first punch, or tried to tackle TM - there would have been SOME sort of evidence of that - but there was not. Or are you claiming that GZ attacked TM's hand with his face?

The evidence clearly shows who the aggressor was when it came to the altercation. It was NOT GZ. The above does not even take into account the 4 minutes in which TM was supposedly "going home", his demonstrated state of mind that night (hostile), etc. In fact, it also does not account for the fact that GZ would have hardly had enough time to start the altercation, since he didn't know where TM was. From the time he hangs up with the cops to the time the 911 call from the witness goes out is answered - is 151 seconds. During that time he supposedly finds TM, attacks him, gets a broken nose, gets his head banged repeatedly, the neighbor hears the fight/screaming, sees the fight, yells for them to stop it, and runs inside to call 911. Or - TM jumps out of the bushes, asks him what his problem is, he replies he doesn't have one and gets his nose broke and down he goes. Timelines are important - and they show the truth.

If you take issue with him being called a punk, thug or street homey wannabe - then your intentionally ignoring the data that TM himself provided. The child porn, the fight video, the text messages about getting that "snitch" again, the drug use, the burglary tools and stolen goods, etc. etc. etc.....

As much as I don't normally agree with Bubblehead - in this case he is right. Facts are Facts - even when you don't like them.

[Nippelspanner]

Actually - that claim is reasonably made based of the timeline. If TM didn't start it, GZ had to have done so. For Zimmerman to have started the altercation relies on ignoring 3 important facts.

First - GZ called the cops. He has no idea when the cops are going to get there - the 911 dispatcher does not give him any kind of specifics on this. So to start the altercation runs the risk of the cop witnessing him attacking TM first. If he - as some claimed - pulled his gun on TM - he ran the risk of getting caught by the cops showing up.

Second - TM is significantly larger than GZ and in much better shape. TM was at least 4" taller than GZ - some reports have it at a 6" difference. GZ was in horrible shape - one trainer rated GZ at a .5 on a 1 to 10 scale.... TM on the other hand was a football player.

Third - and most importantly - there were NO injuries on TM other than the gunshot wound - except for a small abrasion on his ring finger from punching GZ. If GZ had thrown the first punch, or tried to tackle TM - there would have been SOME sort of evidence of that - but there was not. Or are you claiming that GZ attacked TM's hand with his face?

The evidence clearly shows who the aggressor was when it came to the altercation. It was NOT GZ. The above does not even take into account the 4 minutes in which TM was supposedly "going home", his demonstrated state of mind that night (hostile), etc.

If you take issue with him being called a punk, thug or street homey wannabe - then your intentionally ignoring the data that TM himself provided. The child porn, the fight video, the text messages about getting that "snitch" again, the drug use, the burglary tools and stolen goods, etc. etc. etc.....

As much as I don't normally agree with Bubblehead - in this case he is right. Facts are Facts - even when you don't like them.

You don't get my point.
It is not about if Z is right, said the truth, or not. It is about people claiming things where there is no PRROF. Yes, it looks like the thug low life gangster crack head started it - but there is no hard proof. Bubblehead is acting like he knows it all and have been there. Well he was not there, that's all...

[CaptainHaplo]

You don't get my point.
It is not about if Z is right, said the truth, or not. It is about people claiming things where there is no PRROF. Yes, it looks like the thug low life gangster crack head started it - but there is no hard proof. Bubblehead is acting like he knows it all and have been there. Well he was not there, that's all...

Your right - no one was there for sure except GZ, TM and God. TM can't talk, God usually doesn't, so that leaves GZ. However, when his story matches the evidence, how much more do you need?

[Sailor Steve]

You don't get my point.
It is not about if Z is right, said the truth, or not. It is about people claiming things where there is no PRROF. Yes, it looks like the thug low life gangster crack head started it - but there is no hard proof. Bubblehead is acting like he knows it all and have been there. Well he was not there, that's all...
That's the crux of the problem. Haplo made his case clearly and concisely. Whether you agree or not, his points are good ones and need to be countered rather than dismissed.

The reason you're angry with Bubblehead is that he doesn't make a case at all. He tells you what he thinks he knows, and he does so without making a lot of sense. He never listens to the other side, and he likes to resort to name-calling to "prove" a point. No, no one here, of course. But really, "Good guys-1, Scumbags-0"? "Aggressive wannabe thug"? "Whale of a girlfriend"? As I've said dozens of times now, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. These are not the words of someone who argues or debates. These sound more like the words of a wannabe radio talk-show host than someone who professes to be part of the legal system.

[Nippelspanner]

That's the crux of the problem. Haplo made his case clearly and concisely. Whether you agree or not, his points are good ones and need to be countered rather than dismissed.

The reason you're angry with Bubblehead is that he doesn't make a case at all. He tells you what he thinks he knows, and he does so without making a lot of sense. He never listens to the other side, and he likes to resort to name-calling to "prove" a point. No, no one here, of course. But really, "Good guys-1, Scumbags-0"? "Aggressive wannabe thug"? "Whale of a girlfriend"? As I've said dozens of times now, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. These are not the words of someone who argues or debates. These sound more like the words of a wannabe radio talk-show host than someone who professes to be part of the legal system.

As so often, you hit the nails head...

[Ducimus]

Ah...yeah...I'm used to shooting stuff with light wood or synthetic stocks.

M1A's are nice guns. It's probably be a pretty darn good hunting rifle if you had a magazine that holds 10 or less. I'd like to shoot one someday.

What caliber do you have it in? 7.62x51?

If I had one I'd probably get the SOCOM Model and make it tactically awesome. :yeah: :woot: They are relatively expensive though...around 2K.

My friend's Dad has an M1 Garand that he wants to take me out and shoot sometime. It's actually pretty light and shorter than I thought it would be.

Classic rifles are great. :sunny:

Walnut is the way to go with an M1A. At least if you get one from Springfield Armory Inc. (not like you have a lot of choice unless you REALLY want to pony up some cash). The SAI composite stocks aren't the best .They have some flex to them which can effect accuracy to some degree. However, they are VERY light, and I am envious of that.

My rifles chambered in .308 Win, but handles both .308 and commercial 7.56 Nato within SAAMI spec's just fine, and yeah, it also doubles as a hunting rifle. I have two 5 round magazines just for that purpose. Also a detachable scope mount that holds zero within 1/2 MOA.

If you were to get an M1A, the best compromise between the models, I believe is the Scout Squad. I chose the full length version because well, apparently I just don't believe in all this new fangled gadgetry.

[Red October1984]

Walnut is the way to go with an M1A. At least if you get one from Springfield Armory Inc. (not like you have a lot of choice unless you REALLY want to pony up some cash). The SAI composite stocks aren't the best .They have some flex to them which can effect accuracy to some degree. However, they are VERY light, and I am envious of that.

My rifles chambered in .308 Win, but handles both .308 and commercial 7.56 Nato within SAAMI spec's just fine, and yeah, it also doubles as a hunting rifle. I have two 5 round magazines just for that purpose. Also a detachable scope mount that holds zero within 1/2 MOA.

If you were to get an M1A, the best compromise between the models, I believe is the Scout Squad. I chose the full length version because well, apparently I just don't believe in all this new fangled gadgetry.


I'm not one usually for tactical stuff....But I really like the look of the Mk 14 EBR. The tacticool AR-15s just get ridiculous in cost once you start adding all that stuff. At the most, I'd just put a foregrip flashlight/laser and a red dot on an AR if I got one.

I hear that M1As are great guns though and I agree. I'd like to have one someday. I'll look at the scout squad one. Right now, I'm wanting to get a Mosin Nagant M91/30. Once I start my job, I'll save up and get either an M1A or maybe an M1 Garand.

Soooo many guns....sooo little money. :rotfl2: :oops:

I couldn't pick a favorite if I tried.

[Tribesman]

That's the crux of the problem. Haplo made his case clearly and concisely. Whether you agree or not, his points are good ones and need to be countered rather than dismissed.

Not really, look at his third(most important) point and see the gaping flaws.
He even throws in CAPSLOCK for good measure:03:
3 simple explainations can deal with it.
1 He attempted to throw the first punch but was too slow, so he is the aggressor
2 He threw the first punch but missed, so he is the aggressor
3 He threw and landed the first punch but it was a woosie punch, so he is the aggressor
So his "facts are facts" is simply conjecture just like this is.

[Platapus]

This past weekend, we had a WWII reenactment event. I got a chance to hold the M1 Garand and the Carbine among some others.

The M1 just feels good when you heft it. I can understand why people are attracted to it.

I have never held a M14 (M1A) yet. But look forward to it. I like the way the M14 looks. :D

My next step is to actually get a chance to fire an M1 and then M14. A boy can only dream. :D

[August]

Edit: Haplo already said it.

[Armistead]

You don't get my point.
It is not about if Z is right, said the truth, or not. It is about people claiming things where there is no PRROF. Yes, it looks like the thug low life gangster crack head started it - but there is no hard proof. Bubblehead is acting like he knows it all and have been there. Well he was not there, that's all...

All we can do is gauge who started it by the other facts and all the other facts say TM started the fight. The jury got it right.

[Red October1984]

This past weekend, we had a WWII reenactment event. I got a chance to hold the M1 Garand and the Carbine among some others.

The M1 just feels good when you heft it. I can understand why people are attracted to it.

I have never held a M14 (M1A) yet. But look forward to it. I like the way the M14 looks. :D

My next step is to actually get a chance to fire an M1 and then M14. A boy can only dream. :D

The M1 does have a good feel to it. I can't wait until I get to shoot it.

At the air show, there was a WW2 tent set up and they had all the weapons...I held both variations of the Carbine, a Springfield '03, the M1, BAR, and my favorite...the Luger. :arrgh!:

I'm surprised at how back-heavy the Luger is. It feels a bit off if you're used to a more modern pistol. I'd love to fire it...and really anything at that tent.

The M1 is definitely in my near-future though. :sunny:

The M14 certainly does have a nice look to it. I like the newer version...the Mk 14 Mod 0 EBR

http://www.fulton-armory.com/images/MK14MOD0INSETFINAL.jpg

...in all of it's glory. :salute: :yeah:

A boy can dream...yes. :rock: I hope you get your chance to fire these weapons.


EDIT: Maybe we should move our gun discussion to another thread.... This isn't exactly a good place.

[Sailor Steve]

Not really, look at his third(most important) point and see the gaping flaws.
You seem to miss the point. You can attack his arguments. That's fine. At least he makes arguments, which the person we were talking about doesn't.

[Ducimus]

EDIT: Maybe we should move our gun discussion to another thread.... This isn't exactly a good place.


Done.

[em2nought]

The uneasy thought occurred to me tonight while in a nasty McDonalds, I wonder how many "white or tan" folks have had their food spit in since the verdict? ughh :o

[Red October1984]

The uneasy thought occurred to me tonight while in a nasty McDonalds, I wonder how many "white or tan" folks have had their food spit in since the verdict? ughh :o

Want to know why I don't drink McDonalds Sweet Tea? :)

[AngusJS]

http://youtu.be/I6OuP-wiiQg

[mookiemookie]

All we can do is gauge who started it by the other facts and all the other facts say TM started the fight. The jury got it right.

So TM "standing his ground" doesn't matter, but GZ doing so does? How does that make any sense?

[Bubblehead1980]

Like I said , evidence supports Zimmermans account. Martin's behavior etc shows his mentality, including his racist comment made just before attacking that his friend admitted on the stand .Therefore, the only logical conclusion , one anyone without an agenda will reach is that Zimmerman version of events is the truth.facts are stubborn things
I'll just ignore the personal attacks aimed in my direction.

[AVGWarhawk]

Has Jeantel been truthful with all that transpired over the cell phone? Not text the messages. Verbal communication.

[CaptainHaplo]

So TM "standing his ground" doesn't matter, but GZ doing so does? How does that make any sense?

Mookie - TM had every right to "stand his ground". However, the evidence shows that he did not merely stand his ground, but that he advanced aggressively.

Even if you do not accept that TM started the fight - and that requires ignoring the evidence - you have to realize that TM advanced his ground by getting on top of GZ once GZ was on the ground with a broken nose.

Getting on top of someone and continuing to "ground and pound, mma style" is not "standing your ground". Standing your ground means you don't advance. TM's actions during the fight itself - which is the time period that is critical to GZ's fear of bodily injury or death - were offensive in nature. Thus "stand your ground" does not apply to him.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Let us assume that GZ started the fight (which the evidence does NOT support). If this was the case and TM had simply knocked him on his backside with a broken nose and then walked away - GZ would either have NOT shot him - or shot him in the back. One way we don't have this trial - the other GZ goes to jail for murder (or manslaughter at the least). GZ would have had no claim to self defense.

GZ - being held down and pummeled - even having started the fight - legally has the right to self defense in fear of his life. Why? Because having started the fight - he then has to do everything reasonably possible to retreat before doing so. However, with TM (a much bigger person) on top of him, beating him - he cannot retreat at all. Thus he would still have the right to use deadly force in self defense. That is how the law is applied - whether you or I like it or not.

Under the law, the best "defense" is NOT a good "offense" when it comes to physical violence. TM advanced during that fight - and while I can understand that he was operating off of adrenaline (and THC), anger at the girlfriend, etc. - that understanding does not negate the law. If you act in the offense, you cannot claim self defense unless you do everything you can to retreat first. Simple as that.

It is still important to note that there is NO evidence pointing to GZ starting the altercation, while there is significant evidence that TM did so.

[mookiemookie]

So you can stand your ground and shoot someone to death but you can't stand your ground and punch someone.

:doh:

And GZ started it by approaching TM on the street that night. If he had done what he was told to do, no one would be dead.

[AVGWarhawk]

So you can stand your ground and shoot someone to death but you can't stand your ground and punch someone.

:doh:

And GZ started it by approaching TM on the street that night. If he had done what he was told to do, no one would be dead.

TM was not standing his ground. He threw the first punch and preceded to make the event a cage match.

What did GZ start exactly? What did TM start exactly? Who circled back(per the phone calls with Jeantel)?

We can't ignore the facts.

Both made poor judgement decisions that night. Under the law, the state of FL can not prove anything other than poor judgement.

[CaptainHaplo]

So you can stand your ground and shoot someone to death but you can't stand your ground and punch someone.

:doh:

And GZ started it by approaching TM on the street that night. If he had done what he was told to do, no one would be dead.

Mookie - you are being intentionally disingenuous by comparing the LEGAL act of following someone on public property (both parties have a right to be there) to the illegal act of physical assault by one party against the other. There is a huge difference and you know it. You are not trying to debate this, your not analyzing facts and using counterpoints - your whole statement above relies on emotional pulls that try to "reimage" the problem rather than deal with the facts as they are known. Evidence shows GZ DID do what he was told - stop following TM. But you ignore that. GZ has every legal right to follow a person on public property - he was advised against it but doing so didn't break the law. Your whole argument revolves around the idea the GZ started this by following TM. So tell me - does GZ following TM on public property (the street) and on semi-public property (a communal residential area) give TM the legal right to break GZ's nose and bash his head against concrete? Or are you going to ignore those facts too?

Your better than that - debate or offer suggestions on how to fix the law, instead of just complaining that (paraphrased) "its not fair!!!!".

You know - I bet if we worked at it here, we could come up with a better statute that would hold both sides accountable - whereas current criminal law could not hold GZ accountable for his stupidity/irresponsibility.

[Julhelm]

Following someone around is not an offense nor can it be considered sufficiently threatening unless you were being cornered. So unless GZ was actively starting the fight there is no way TM could claim self defense.

TM could just have disengaged and he would have been alive. However, he instead chose to pick a fight with someone who happened to carry a concealed firearm and so he ended up dead instead. So the real lesson here should be 'Don't assault people'.

[Sailor Steve]

I'll just ignore the personal attacks aimed in my direction.
You'll just ignore the question of your own sexist comment?

I'm not trying to attack you. I am, as I have always been, trying to show you the difference between actual debate and parroting right-wing rhetoric. What do comments like "Good guys-1, Scumbags-0", "Aggressive wannabe thug" and "Whale of a girlfriend" say about your own character? Look at the difference between the way you and Haplo make the same case? Do you see it?

[les green01]

I didn't follow the trial,stuff I know is from the net so that's a two way street.What I have read and heard was they didn't charge the guy until 40 days after the shooting,they fire the police chief cause he wouldn't charge gz,bought in a prostuter from another area,some of the prostuting witness said themselves that gz events was more believable than the other they didn't have a case,basic because you had protesters and the president sticking his big nose into it why cause the shooter was white and the other was black(I use other cause I don't see him as a victim)if target a gets knock on the ground by b and b contunies to attack (a) as every right to protect himself including use of a firearm,ripping (B) voice box out with two fingers,Busting (B) ear drum or knife

[Tribesman]

You seem to miss the point.
No Steve, you miss the point.
The individual made a claim , he then said that the claim was the "ONLY" answer and that it was a fact.
That argument put forward is no different from bubbles claiming to have the answer.
You will also notice that he carries on again in the same vein(not the first time in this topic either) on the basis that his "facts" are really fact.s



And GZ started it by approaching TM on the street that night.
Yep, a dodgy looking latino kerb crawling round the Martin neighbourhood at night. Definitely suspect as he looks kinda Mexican and we have been informed by Ducimus that 9 out of 10 Mexicans are gang bangers which means they are not only clearly criminals but they are dangerous criminals.:03:

All we can do is gauge who started it by the other facts and all the other facts say TM started the fight.
The only actual "fact" that supports that is the claim made by the accused, who has previously proven himself to be a liar.
The only other person who could provide any evidence as to who started what is dead.

[Armistead]

Blacks need to be marching about the black lady who stood her ground, simply fired a warning shot at an abusive attacking husband and got 20 years jail.

[mookiemookie]

On that night last February, when he got out of his car, George Zimmerman became the judge and jury of Trayvon Martin, accused of the crime of being a black male teenager walking in a neighborhood. Hap, your attempts to make him into anything more nefarious than that are ridiculous. Your attempts to paint him as some black thug are an attempt to justify the shooting of a kid who, before GZ got out of the car, was just walking down the street. They're nothing more than fearmongering. The organized hordes of blacks invading your neighborhoods to steal your goods and carry off your women exist only in your head.

TM resisted that judgement and he paid for that his life, and GZ got away with it due to a law that legalizes murder. That's wrong.

[AVGWarhawk]

On that night last February, when he got out of his car, George Zimmerman became the judge and jury of Trayvon Martin, accused of the crime of being a black male teenager walking in a neighborhood. Hap, your attempts to make him into anything more nefarious than that are ridiculous. Your attempts to paint him as some black thug are an attempt to justify the shooting of a kid who, before GZ got out of the car, was just walking down the street. They're nothing more than fearmongering. The organized hordes of blacks invading your neighborhoods to steal your goods and carry off your women exist only in your head.

TM resisted that judgement and he paid for that his life, and GZ got away with it due to a law that legalizes murder. That's wrong.

Unfortunately, the jury of 6 had seen a different picture. It is now only seen in practice that stand your ground needs a revision or abolished.

[AVGWarhawk]

Blacks need to be marching about the black lady who stood her ground, simply fired a warning shot at an abusive attacking husband and got 20 years jail.

Yeah, that is a odd one.

[Sailor Steve]

No Steve, you miss the point.
My only point was that Haplo made an argument you can argue against. You seem to have missed that entirely.

[Armistead]

On that night last February, when he got out of his car, George Zimmerman became the judge and jury of Trayvon Martin, accused of the crime of being a black male teenager walking in a neighborhood. Hap, your attempts to make him into anything more nefarious than that are ridiculous. Your attempts to paint him as some black thug are an attempt to justify the shooting of a kid who, before GZ got out of the car, was just walking down the street. They're nothing more than fearmongering. The organized hordes of blacks invading your neighborhoods to steal your goods and carry off your women exist only in your head.

TM resisted that judgement and he paid for that his life, and GZ got away with it due to a law that legalizes murder. That's wrong.

It really wasn't about "stand your ground", it was about self defense. The timeline shows TM went home or close to it and went back near the "T". He certainly wasn't worried bout being followed. The fact remains GZ only shot after having his head slammed into concrete several times, not before

What is sad is that GZ was found not guilty, yet the media wants to offer him up as a goat to appease a radical civil rights movement.If Holder brings him up on further charges, it's clear this remains a witch hunt.

[Ducimus]

For those debating for or against, I just found this on youtube.

George Zimmerman Trial Juror #b37 Does Interview With Her Identity Concealed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcdSZw2-C18)

36 minutes.

Watch that, then go back to debating. :O:

[August]

On that night last February, when he got out of his car, George Zimmerman became the judge and jury of Trayvon Martin, accused of the crime of being a black male teenager walking in a neighborhood. Hap, your attempts to make him into anything more nefarious than that are ridiculous. Your attempts to paint him as some black thug are an attempt to justify the shooting of a kid who, before GZ got out of the car, was just walking down the street. They're nothing more than fearmongering. The organized hordes of blacks invading your neighborhoods to steal your goods and carry off your women exist only in your head.

TM resisted that judgement and he paid for that his life, and GZ got away with it due to a law that legalizes murder. That's wrong.

Talk about fear mongering. Show me where Haplo made such racially charged statements in this thread or admit you are wrong.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think Jeantel has more to offer. :yep:

[Armistead]

I'm shocked at the behavior of Angela Corey, a state official still calling GZ a murderer. Is it possible she is the real racist, a conservative republican, known to overcharge? Is it possible she has recently converted to a civil rights mouth to hide her past? She's a disgrace to the office she holds, trying to cover her racist past because of all the political attention.

This fat pig needs to go

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4510141986308763&pid=1.7&w=277&h=187&c=7&rs=1

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm surprised by a lot of folks behavior.

Nancy Grace. My goodness. She needs to count to 10, take a deep breath and retire.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XJSj8yZNcEM/S6lb4KWpRLI/AAAAAAAABSk/gZ7NZ_NlBUE/s400/nancy_grace_112307.jpg

[garren]

Traygone should have not been such a racist and attacked Zimmerman. Had he just kept walking then he'd be alive today to practice his thuggery. Good riddance to anti-white racist trash. :up:

[nikimcbee]

I think Jeantel has more to offer. :yep:


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130627203325-erin-zimmerman-trial-jeantel-body-language-00013621-story-body.jpg

What are you saying AVG? You want some of dis?



Anywhoo, I wonder what Charley thinks?

This could be his wet dream come true.:dead:

Helter skelter.
Helter skelter.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/130627203325-erin-zimmerman-trial-jeantel-body-language-00013621-story-body.jpg

What are you saying AVG? You want some of dis?



Anywhoo, I wonder what Charley thinks?

This could be his wet dream come true.:dead:

Helter skelter.
Helter skelter.

I would like to note that Jeantel's hairstyle went from what was done in front of mirror at home for the trial to a $500 hair design for CNN. The news media certainly likes to cover up, elude and provide smoke and mirrors.

Ms. Jeantel has changed her story again it seems. It would seem the more was revealed about the phone conversation as seen in the CNN interview. I would advise she gets out of the limelight and any scheduled interviews.

[Jimbuna]

Traygone should have not been such a racist and attacked Zimmerman. Had he just kept walking then he'd be alive today to practice his thuggery. Good riddance to anti-white racist trash. :up:

Look, you were infracted by Neal just two days ago in #171 yet still you persist.

The next violation will result in a suspension of your posting privileges at the least.

[BrucePartington]

http://youtu.be/I6OuP-wiiQg
I cannot remain silent on this one. I am outraged now.
I take it he didn't acquaint himself with the evidence presented. And he also insists on showing the public a 5 y/o photo of a still innocent child, thus further insisting on fuelling rioting. He seems to ignore, or pretend to, that it's the media's fault that TM's character was brought out in an effort to properly trial this case, along with GZ's of course, and all the relevant evidence.

Don't take me wrong, I'd rather this incident never happened, and that TM would turn out to be OK as an adult.

There is no "Undo" button for this one, no "Reload saved game". Let's just give it a rest, keep the lessons learned, and move on.

Edit: Martin Bashir is the one who doctored his interview recording with Michael Jackson.

[AVGWarhawk]

I cannot remain silent on this one. I am outraged now.
I take it he didn't acquaint himself with the evidence presented. And he also insists on showing the public a 5 y/o photo of a still innocent child, thus further insisting on fuelling rioting. He seems to ignore, or pretend to, that it's the media's fault that TM's character was brought out in an effort to properly trial this case, along with GZ's of course, and all the relevant evidence.

Don't take me wrong, I'd rather this incident never happened, and that TM would turn out to be OK as an adult.

There is no "Undo" button for this one, no "Reload saved game". Let's just give it a rest, keep the lessons learned, and move on.


It is MSNBC...looks like a typical day in the news room.

[Armistead]

I see Al Sharpton has organized 100 protest this coming weekend in major US cities. Al still flaming, ignoring the court system and wanting to stir people to anger.

[nikimcbee]

I see Al Sharpton has organized 100 protest this coming weekend in major US cities. Al still flaming, ignoring the court system and wanting to stir people to anger.


True justice would be sending this moron the police and damage bill for the riots.:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

I see Al Sharpton has organized 100 protest this coming weekend in major US cities. Al still flaming, ignoring the court system and wanting to stir people to anger.

I do not expect anything less from Al. It is his famous modus operandi. Wonder how the fellas from Duke are making out?

[Armistead]

True justice would be sending this moron the police and damage bill for the riots.:up:

Just sad this was made racial and continues to be. I'm sure blacks have legit concerns over race and the justice system, but not this case. Again, they should be protesting over the black woman that stood her ground against an abusive husband, only fired a warning shot and got 20 years. It' clear they've made GZ white and want it to be a race issue. Sharpton doesn't want the truth, he wants attention.

It's clear GZ isn't racist, he took a black girl to his prom, mentored black kids and was liked by his black neighbors. He also cleared an FBI racist profile and they found not a hint of racism.

This was a clear case of self defense, not race, but the govt. under Holder continues the witch hunt.

It seems these so called civil right leaders are saying, if you happen to get attacked and beaten by a young black, if you defend yourself, you're racist and a murderer. If I'm having my head beat against concrete, the only color that concerns me is red, my blood and hopefully yours if I'm armed.

[AVGWarhawk]

The news needs to return it's attention back to the IRS scandal, economy, Benghazi and other items of interest currently tarnishing this administration.

[Father Goose]

I'm shocked at the behavior of Angela Corey, a state official still calling GZ a murderer. Is it possible she is the real racist, a conservative republican, known to overcharge? Is it possible she has recently converted to a civil rights mouth to hide her past? She's a disgrace to the office she holds, trying to cover her racist past because of all the political attention.

This fat pig needs to go

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4510141986308763&pid=1.7&w=277&h=187&c=7&rs=1

George Zimmerman should retain attorney Dershowitz and sue NBC and Angela Corey for defamation. :arrgh!:

It appears from all indications that the world or at least the United States part of it has gone mad! :/\\!!

[Ducimus]

The news needs to return it's attention back to the IRS scandal, economy, Benghazi and other items of interest currently tarnishing this administration.


Personally, diversionary tactics didn't work on me. My mind has never left those subjects. It is interesting to see though, that what the media reports, turns into what people think about. If i was into left wing conspiracy theories, i'd swear the media short stroking this case was deliberate.

Of course, the reality is, the media is drawn to whatever will generate the most ratings. Kinda like how manure gathers flys. I'll bet Obama is loving this because it takes the focus off him.

[BrucePartington]

For those debating for or against, I just found this on youtube.

George Zimmerman Trial Juror #b37 Does Interview With Her Identity Concealed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcdSZw2-C18)

36 minutes.

Watch that, then go back to debating. :O:
Loved it. Thank you.

[soopaman2]

This is the same juror looking to write a book, doing her rounds before the big release.

Capitalizing off of TM's family and GZ.

Sad...

[AVGWarhawk]

This is the same juror looking to write a book, doing her rounds before the big release.

Capitalizing off of TM's family and GZ.

Sad...

The book deal was off the table before the interview I believe. But make no mistake about it. Other parties in this debacle have already put their fingers in the pie. Some few weeks after the incident. I think Trayvon Martin name has been trade marked by his parents. Ain't it just grand.

[Tribesman]

Some few weeks after the incident. I think Trayvon Martin name has been trade marked by his parents. Ain't it just grand.
If you recall correctly that was because other people were doing it and they took the action to stop it.

The book deal was off the table before the interview I believe.
The interview was on Monday, the publisher announced the book deal on Monday, the cancelation was announced on Tuesday.

[Packlife]

The 1 juror said she isnt gonna do the book but I think the other 5 are, whats sad is from listening to her interview on anderson 360. She had her mind made up from the word go, saying stuff like GZ had the right to do this an do that, I'm like wait was GZ the only 1 who had a right to defend himself?? Did TM have any rights that night?? An if I'm correct this was 1 of the jurors who the prosecution didnt want on the jurry because she had made statements about keeping up w/ the case an possibly hinted at being on GZ side, defense argued that it was because she was white smh. I feel bad for the prosecutors a lot of ppl have been beating them up saying they over charged GZ. But I watched an interview w/ 2 of the prosecutors last night an the bald 1 said, "Wait didnt a judge/ 2 judges hear all the evidence an deemed there was enough there to support a 2nd degree murder charge???". Whats crazy is a black girl fired a warning shot in the air an got 20 years for it GZ shoots an unarmed kid who he profiled an got away scot free. Florida needs to get rid of the "Stand your ground" law, it pretty much is a license to kill, no matter where you are as long as your not there illegally you do not have to retreat you can shoot somebody for the fear you might get hurt. So I could be standing on the sidewalk an some guy could call me a name an I could shoot an kill him an say its self defense I was scared of bodily harm, that is insane

[Ducimus]

After reading about this over the last day or so, I find it amusing how people from all over, see what they want to see. It's like people are looking for some cause or crusade.

Violent crime happens all the time. Muggings, beatings, knivings, shootings, robbings, rapings, murders, carjackings, home invasions, etc etc etc, the list goes on and on. With all the crime that goes on in this country, from coast to coast, each and every day; how this one instance becomes so damn special I'll never know.


So I don't have to hear Steve bitch about language again, here's the politically correct version of what I think of this whole thing and the moral crusaders who's lives are going so well, that they have nothing else to worry about.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldi4w1tO3W1qaaowno1_500.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

So I don't have to hear Steve bitch about language again
Once again someone pretending to righteous anger misrepresents me. I don't care about the language. It's the rules I care about.

You want to play the rebellious boy, that's your business, but please leave me out of it.

[garren]

Hey Jim Buna, Why was I given an infraction for post 329 of this thread? Inappropriate language? Neal gave me an infraction for using a curse word in another post on this thread. That I can understand, but not your infraction for what I said in post 329. I just shared my opinion in post 329, like everyone else on this thread is doing, and I did not use any curse words.

Seems like there's quite a few Trayvon sympathizers/anti-Zimmerman moderators on here punishing those of us who side ourselves with Zimmerman and the law. He was found innocent in a court of law even though I know that doesn't matter to anyone who's been a Zimmerman hater from the beginning and allowed the liberal leftist media to brainwash them into defending thuggery and a thug who was racist towards anyone not as dark as himself with his comment to his girlfriend just before he attacked Zimmerman and told Zimmerman "You're going to die tonight".

To side with Trayvon at this point is really showing your true colors and a slap in the face to justice and the 6 women who found Zimmerman innocent of any wrong doing. He had a right to defend his life from the thug who attacked him. Don't like the jurors decision then that's tough. I didn't like the OJ decision or the Casey Anthony decision but I've had to live with it and accept it. Sure, you're entitled to believe what you want, but giving infractions to people who don't agree with your views is just cowardly practice at best.

[Ducimus]

Once again someone pretending to righteous anger misrepresents me. I don't care about the language. It's the rules I care about.

You want to play the rebellious boy, that's your business, but please leave me out of it.


The Sarcasm Stratofortress flew over your head at 50,000 feet.

Seriously, the instant i post one picture or video with so much as s, an h, an i and a t on it, in that order, you'd have been all over me like white on rice. Don't deny it. :haha:

[garren]

Just sad this was made racial and continues to be. I'm sure blacks have legit concerns over race and the justice system, but not this case. Again, they should be protesting over the black woman that stood her ground against an abusive husband, only fired a warning shot and got 20 years. It' clear they've made GZ white and want it to be a race issue. Sharpton doesn't want the truth, he wants attention.

It's clear GZ isn't racist, he took a black girl to his prom, mentored black kids and was liked by his black neighbors. He also cleared an FBI racist profile and they found not a hint of racism.

This was a clear case of self defense, not race, but the govt. under Holder continues the witch hunt.

It seems these so called civil right leaders are saying, if you happen to get attacked and beaten by a young black, if you defend yourself, you're racist and a murderer. If I'm having my head beat against concrete, the only color that concerns me is red, my blood and hopefully yours if I'm armed.


Excellent post. The truth hurts apparently. And what a perversion of justice to pressure the DOJ to prosecute Zimmerman on some federal charge for a hate crime. If anyone's been racially profiled it's Zimmerman. Seems like many blacks (I'm black btw) are just as bad as any whites were during the Jim Crow era where blacks weren't given a fair deal. If anyone isn't being given a fair deal in these times - it's white heterosexual Christian conservative males. Government just has to have some race or class on bottom. Government causes the problems and then claims they're going to fix the problem but they only find someone new to abuse. Government has gotten too big. Should dissolve the federal government and just have 50 independent states with a unified military at the most.

[Bubblehead1980]

You'll just ignore the question of your own sexist comment?

I'm not trying to attack you. I am, as I have always been, trying to show you the difference between actual debate and parroting right-wing rhetoric. What do comments like "Good guys-1, Scumbags-0", "Aggressive wannabe thug" and "Whale of a girlfriend" say about your own character? Look at the difference between the way you and Haplo make the same case? Do you see it?


Calling the big girl a whale is sexist? no lol just stating the obvious.That was not my problem with her, the girl is borderline retarded, can barely read, or speak, she had no business on the stand, the fact that the prosecution put her on the stand shows the quality of lawyers they are. Much like in the Casey Anthony case, they went for the throat, overcharged, pushed too hard due to politics and pressure from the ignorant masses, they paid for it.

Yes, there are times I tend to say things you don't like, and are purposely controversial, off color etc so instead of disagreeing you take a condescending tone and lecture me, say I am a "wannabe" who "professes" to be in the legal profession. First of all, this forum is not a classroom nor a courtroom.However, use of theatrical rhetoric etc is something that works quite well in class, courtroom to a degree,.

Martin was a thug and a scumbag, the evidence shows it.The recent trouble he had been in, photos of him "mugging" it for the camera etc.Young, aggressive, racist(again, his cracker comment) , he chose to attack Zimmerman simply because he did not like Zimmerman have concerns about his presence in his neighborhood, not because he is black, but because he is a stranger.Really, if Martin was a good kid etc, he would have just walked on and minded his business, but he was aggressive and chose to fight, he attacked the wrong guy.This is what the evidence shows, it's a logical conclusion.

The GoodGuys-1 Scumbags-0 comment, well it's accurate.This case was about more than Martin and Zimmerman, it was about right and wrong and the right to self defense under the law.The scumbag does not just refer to Martin, but to all who blindly supported him just because he was black.The media who tried to convict him from day one, Obama, black people who hold on to the victim mentality , Angela Correy, Rick Scott etc who simply said, oh young black kid, don't care what he did, he gets a pass no matter what, fry whitey(turns out he is hispanic).They tried to put a man who simply defended himself(legally under florida law) in prison! Those in the government abused their power to persecute this man, his only saving grace was that of his constitutional right to a trial that put the facts out there.There is where my good guys vs scumbags comment comes from.

[garren]

The Sarcasm Stratofortress flew over your head at 50,000 feet.

Seriously, the instant i post one picture or video with so much as s, an h, an i and a t on it, in that order, you'd have been all over me like white on rice. Don't deny it. :haha:


I'm sick of being given infractions on this thread by all the Traygone sympathizers with moderator caps. This thread is nothing but a tar baby that's fueling people's emotions. Should have never stepped into this pit. Oh well.

[Sailor Steve]

Hey Jim Buna, Why was I given an infraction for post 329 of this thread? Inappropriate language? Neal gave me an infraction for using a curse word in another post on this thread. That I can understand, but not your infraction for what I said in post 329. I just shared my opinion in post 329, like everyone else on this thread is doing, and I did not use any curse words.
First, the place to protest an infraction is via PM, but since you chose to make a public fight and since it's past midnight where Jim lives, I'll put in my two cents.

You were infracted the second time for the phrase "Good riddance to anti-white racist trash. :up:" This is directly in violation of the rule
No vulgarities, obscenities, hate speech, or foul language.
In short, stating your opinion of the verdict or the case is fine. Opinions of individuals as "trash" of any kind is borderline. Since you have already repeatedly voiced similar opinions, repeating them yet again just makes it worse.

To side with Trayvon at this point is really showing your true colors and a slap in the face to justice and the 6 women who found Zimmerman innocent of any wrong doing. He had a right to defend his life from the thug who attacked him. Don't like the jurors decision then that's tough.
Jim hasn't espoused any opinion on the case at all. I'm not sure he knows or cares about it one way or the other. As he stated in the infraction, it was based on your use of language and the fact that you seem bent on using that kind of talk every chance you get. So his "true colors" have nothing to do with your objection, and your objection has nothing to do with why you were infracted.

but giving infractions to people who don't agree with your views is just cowardly practice at best.
As I've pointed out, you weren't infracted for your opinion of the case, nor even for your opinion of the victim. You weren't infracted because he disagrees with your views. It's the language that you used, and nothing else.

Oh, and calling a moderator "cowardly" is a sure way to get infracted yet again. I chose to explain all this to you rather than take that road, hoping the truth will sink in this time.

[garren]

Someone should lock this thread and send it straight to hell so it can join Traygone. :yep:

[garren]

First, the place to protest an infraction is via PM, but since you chose to make a public fight and since it's past midnight where Jim lives, I'll put in my two cents.

You were infracted the second time for the phrase "Good riddance to anti-white racist trash. :up:" This is directly in violation of the rule

In short, stating your opinion of the verdict or the case is fine. Opinions of individuals as "trash" of any kind is borderline. Since you have already repeatedly voiced similar opinions, repeating them yet again just makes it worse.


Jim hasn't espoused any opinion on the case at all. I'm not sure he knows or cares about it one way or the other. As he stated in the infraction, it was based on your use of language and the fact that you seem bent on using that kind of talk every chance you get. So his "true colors" have nothing to do with your objection, and your objection has nothing to do with why you were infracted.


As I've pointed out, you weren't infracted for your opinion of the case, nor even for your opinion of the victim. You weren't infracted because he disagrees with your views. It's the language that you used, and nothing else.

Oh, and calling a moderator "cowardly" is a sure way to get infracted yet again. I chose to explain all this to you rather than take that road, hoping the truth will sink in this time.

How is it hate speech to talk about anti-white racists? That's a new one. So it's racist to be against racism against white people? Wow! :o

And it was cowardly of Jim to give me an infraction and then run off like he did. Giving infractions is gay! So lame. I hate this site. Please cancel my subscription and I will be going. Thank you!

[mookiemookie]

So lame. I hate this site. Please cancel my subscription and I will be going. Thank you!

http://i.imgur.com/7o1ZNcb.gif

Talk about fear mongering. Show me where Haplo made such racially charged statements in this thread or admit you are wrong.

See that's the great thing about dogwhistle politics - plausible deniability. "Well gosh, I never said that!"

[Sailor Steve]

Calling the big girl a whale is sexist? no lol just stating the obvious.
If it's obvious it doesn't need to be stated. It has nothing to do with the case, and it has nothing to do with your arguments. Therefore it doesn't belong in the conversation. It's childish.

Yes, there are times I tend to say things you don't like, and are purposely controversial, off color etc so instead of disagreeing you take a condescending tone and lecture me, say I am a "wannabe" who "professes" to be in the legal profession. First of all, this forum is not a classroom nor a courtroom.However, use of theatrical rhetoric etc is something that works quite well in class, courtroom to a degree,.
But it is a forum for rational discussion, not playing games. When you interject useless rhetoric you make yourself look worse, not the person you're talking about.

Martin was a thug and a scumbag, the evidence shows it.
But not relevant to the discussion. You sidetrack into things like this and then talk about "reason" and "logic". It doesn't matter what your opinion of him is, all that matters is what happened that night.

The recent trouble he had been in, photos of him "mugging" it for the camera etc.Young, aggressive, racist(again, his cracker comment) , he chose to attack Zimmerman simply because he did not like Zimmerman have concerns about his presence in his neighborhood, not because he is black, but because he is a stranger.Really, if Martin was a good kid etc, he would have just walked on and minded his business, but he was aggressive and chose to fight, he attacked the wrong guy.This is what the evidence shows, it's a logical conclusion.
How do you know he chose to fight? You keep saying none of us was there, but you "logic" leads you to assumptions you know nothing about.

The GoodGuys-1 Scumbags-0 comment, well it's accurate.
No, it's assumptive on your part. And it's prejudiced and unnecessary. It's you venting and being judgemental, not sticking to the case itself.

Don't forget that I agree with you about the verdict. The jury did their job. They heard the evidence, they made a decision. That should be the end of it. What I disagree with is what I've said before: That your posting comes across as extremely biased, parroting right-wing talk shows and throwing in all kinds of rhetoric. That is not logical, nor is it reason.

This case was about more than Martin and Zimmerman
More rhetoric. All those other things are social claptrap and politicking. The case is about the lawyers and the jury.

I would like to see what your posting would have looked like if Zimmerman had been found guilty.

There is where my good guys vs scumbags comment comes from.
It doesn't matter where it comes from, it still has nothing to do with arguing for or against the verdict. It's not reason or logic, it's emotion-based opinion.

[Sailor Steve]

The Sarcasm Stratofortress flew over your head at 50,000 feet.
Doesn't surprise me a bit. I like to say I'm pretty intelligent, but I'm not very smart.

Seriously, the instant i post one picture or video with so much as s, an h, an i and a t on it, in that order, you'd have been all over me like white on rice. Don't deny it. :haha:
I don't deny it. There's a rule against it. I watch shows with that kind of language all the time, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I don't make a habit of swearing in normal conversation, because I see no need for it, but you should hear me when my computer decides to toy with me, or when I drop an essential part on the floor right when I need it.

For me, here, it's about Neal and his rules. And sometimes even he disagrees with me on that. Guess who wins that one? And if the rule should someday change, you won't hear a peep out of me. On the other hand there will be plenty of folks saying "I bet Steve it hating this!"

And they'll be wrong.

[Red October1984]

If anyone isn't being given a fair deal in these times - it's white heterosexual Christian conservative males.

I can agree to that to a certain extent.

Should dissolve the federal government and just have 50 independent states with a unified military at the most.

At some point, you went to school.

Remember learning about the Articles of Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation)?

It didn't work.

The Sarcasm Stratofortress flew over your head at 50,000 feet.

:rotfl2: I've got to remember that one

Oh, and calling a moderator "cowardly" is a sure way to get infracted yet again. I chose to explain all this to you rather than take that road, hoping the truth will sink in this time.

+1

I have too much respect for everyone here that I wouldn't call anybody cowardly unless it was clearly a joke.

Someone should lock this thread and send it straight to hell so it can join Traygone. :yep:

Okay....you can dislike the guy...but a bit too far I think.

How is it hate speech to talk about anti-white racists? That's a new one. So it's racist to be against racism against white people? Wow! :o

We just don't talk about hating anybody really... :shifty:

And it was cowardly of Jim to give me an infraction and then run off like he did. Giving infractions is gay! So lame. I hate this site. Please cancel my subscription and I will be going. Thank you!

Nobody asked you to be here. There is no obligation.

Calling infractions Gay? You are missing the point here. If you hate this site and the people who are on here, just don't bother. I certainly don't want somebody spamming up the site with hate posts. If you hate it, leave. It's as simple as that.

[Platapus]

Please cancel my subscription and I will be going. Thank you!


Oh no, please don't go. This site would not be the same without you. :wah:


No, I can't back that up. Go ahead and go if that's what you like or stay if that's what you like. What is lame is making a statement like that when all you have to do is quietly leave.

There is no subscription to cancel. If you wish your account to be closed, then privately contact the site owner. Public postings like this are petulant.

[Tchocky]

Just making my 12,300 post before Tchocky's offended sensibilities reports me for making "racial comments", and the probable summary keelhauling (again).

Weee, digital rollover. I'm feeling so apologetic. :roll:

this is nothing to do with you personally. Seriously. This is to do with the general tone here recently. Get off the cross

build whatever straw men you want about my offended sensibilities, I'm objecting to the generic and lazy halfracist rubbish that this forum has turned to. Trust me, your post was neither the worst, most recent or the most offensive, but it was the one I responded to.

The last couple of pages read like people who have been waiting for an excuse to sound off. Haplo keeps it logical, Bubblehead goes off the charts and garren does the usual garbage.

It seems GT is full of eyewitnesses, it's a shame none of them contacted the police. Before getting nasty about witnesses' personal appearance. Whatever the hell that had to do with anything.

the whole thing stinks. Personally I think the Florida law is INSANE. I'm not sure that Zimmerman could have been convicted even on general evidence in another state, but that's not the same as him being innocent. I've no idea what happened that night, but the (to my mind) extralegal shadowing started a bad rock rolling. I'm not assigning blame because I wasn't there - an idea some posters here should consider.

The effect of law is to inhibit undesirable behavior. People act differently when they believe their actions to be consequence-free.

Let the courts play it out as they do, let's not pretend that an acquittal is the same as justice. The law should be changed. Shooting somebody dead should have consequences

[Ducimus]

Whatever. Go drink some more kool-aid.

[Tchocky]

Cheap stereotypes it is then.

[August]

The law should be changed. Shooting somebody dead should have consequences

They do have consequences, somebody gets shot.

But whether the shooter should face consequences depends on whether or not they shot in self defense.

[Tchocky]

And self defence is a reasonable argument. A law saying you aren't responsible if you "feel your life is in danger" is to my mind unreasonable. That kind of thing should be left to the judge or jury, and not be an unassailable right of the defendant.

I appreciate the arguments for and against, and as I said before I'm not sure a conviction would have been likely anywhere - but there's got to be a better way.

It seems these laws are written to appease those who gleefully anticipate the chance to shoot somebody and get away with it. I've seen enough of it on this forum.

[Armistead]

With all the crime that goes on in this country, from coast to coast, each and every day; how this one instance becomes so damn special I'll never know.


C'mon, you know. This case was a witch hunt from the start. The media and politicians put in on the national stage over race, when nothing about this case had to do with race. Worse, now that GZ was found not guilty, our federal govt is stepping in when they cleary have to reason to do so. Now Sharpton is leading large protest in 100 cities this weekend that will cost taxpayers millions, shut towns down etc...and who knows what violence or rioting. Al "the pimp" Sharpton and all his cronies just stirring the racist pot to keep themselves in the forefront. If Holder charges GZ with racism, it's nothing more than a lynching. Again, it's saying if someone of another race is beating my head in, If I defend myself, I could be a racist. Heck, even a racist has the right to defend his life.

The real issue isn't GZ, it's stand your ground. Why aren't we having a 100 major protest for the poor black woman in jail for firing a warning shot and stopping an abusive husband. Maybe it's because it's black on black and no one can scream racism.

What about Corey, playing the role of civil rights leader, still calling GZ a murderer? She just doesn't want anybody to call her out for the racist SA that she is.

GZ has become the goat for people to push their agendas, cover their arses and make money.

They should ban the damn media from court rooms, they turn the system into a drama, making millions off commericials and become judge and jury. They should atleast charge the media to pay for the millions it cost taxpayers.

[Father Goose]

C'mon, you know. This case was a witch hunt from the start. The media and politicians put in on the national stage over race, when nothing about this case had to do with race. Worse, now that GZ was found not guilty, our federal govt is stepping in when they cleary have to reason to do so. Now Sharpton is leading large protest in 100 cities this weekend that will cost taxpayers millions, shut towns down etc...and who knows what violence or rioting. Al "the pimp" Sharpton and all his cronies just stirring the racist pot to keep themselves in the forefront. If Holder charges GZ with racism, it's nothing more than a lynching. Again, it's saying if someone of another race is beating my head in, If I defend myself, I could be a racist. Heck, even a racist has the right to defend his life.

The real issue isn't GZ, it's stand your ground. Why aren't we having a 100 major protest for the poor black woman in jail for firing a warning shot and stopping an abusive husband. Maybe it's because it's black on black and no one can scream racism.

What about Corey, playing the role of civil rights leader, still calling GZ a murderer? She just doesn't want anybody to call her out for the racist SA that she is.

GZ has become the goat for people to push their agendas, cover their arses and make money.

They should ban the damn media from court rooms, they turn the system into a drama, making millions off commericials and become judge and jury. They should atleast charge the media to pay for the millions it cost taxpayers.

Agree 98%.
Disagree with this being a "stand your ground case".

Knocked down and pinned to the ground by Martin, Zimmerman would not have had an opportunity to escape as Martin hit him and knocked his head against the concrete.

Zimmerman, former Sanford, Florida Police Chief Bill Lee said last week, "had nothing to do with Florida's controversial 'Stand Your Ground' law" because "from an investigative standpoint, it was purely a matter of self-defense."

During his rebuttal on Friday, prosecutor John Guy declared, "This case is not about standing your ground."

Nevertheless, the facts will not stop Holder and company from trying to take away gun owners rights to defend themselves by trying to abolish this law.

[Armistead]

Agree 98%.
Disagree with this being a "stand your ground case".

Knocked down and pinned to the ground by Martin, Zimmerman would not have had an opportunity to escape as Martin hit him and knocked his head against the concrete.

Zimmerman, former Sanford, Florida Police Chief Bill Lee said last week, "had nothing to do with Florida's controversial 'Stand Your Ground' law" because "from an investigative standpoint, it was purely a matter of self-defense."

During his rebuttal on Friday, prosecutor John Guy declared, "This case is not about standing your ground."

Nevertheless, the facts will not stop Holder and company from trying to take away gun owners rights to defend themselves by trying to abolish this law.

I agree, I don't this case is about stand your ground at all, but maybe stand your ground in itself is what the what needs to be looked at by the civil rights movement...not GZ. I do agree if you can safely retreat, better to do that than stand your ground and kill or be killed over something stupid.

I totally agree, this is a goat case to push other agendas. It's not going to help race relations, just divide people more.

[Father Goose]

I agree, I don't this case is about stand your ground at all, but maybe stand your ground in itself is what the what needs to be looked at by the civil rights movement...not GZ. I do agree if you can safely retreat, better to do that than stand your ground and kill or be killed over something stupid.

I totally agree, this is a goat case to push other agendas. It's not going to help race relations, just divide people more.

I better understand your position. I mistakenly thought your comment about "stand your ground" was related to this case. I stand corrected. :up:

[Tribesman]

Calling infractions Gay?
Well if you couple that with the white christian conservative hetrosexual rant it does give a suggestion that he is maybe trying to over compensate for something.
Perhaps its just another Haggard but with a streak of white supremacist thrown in for taste.

I hate this site. Please cancel my subscription and I will be going to Stormfront. Thank you!
Fixed.:D

[Jimbuna]

Hey Jim Buna, Why was I given an infraction for post 329 of this thread? Inappropriate language? Neal gave me an infraction for using a curse word in another post on this thread. That I can understand, but not your infraction for what I said in post 329. I just shared my opinion in post 329, like everyone else on this thread is doing, and I did not use any curse words.

Seems like there's quite a few Trayvon sympathizers/anti-Zimmerman moderators on here punishing those of us who side ourselves with Zimmerman and the law. He was found innocent in a court of law even though I know that doesn't matter to anyone who's been a Zimmerman hater from the beginning and allowed the liberal leftist media to brainwash them into defending thuggery and a thug who was racist towards anyone not as dark as himself with his comment to his girlfriend just before he attacked Zimmerman and told Zimmerman "You're going to die tonight".

To side with Trayvon at this point is really showing your true colors and a slap in the face to justice and the 6 women who found Zimmerman innocent of any wrong doing. He had a right to defend his life from the thug who attacked him. Don't like the jurors decision then that's tough. I didn't like the OJ decision or the Casey Anthony decision but I've had to live with it and accept it. Sure, you're entitled to believe what you want, but giving infractions to people who don't agree with your views is just cowardly practice at best.

How is it hate speech to talk about anti-white racists? That's a new one. So it's racist to be against racism against white people? Wow! :o

And it was cowardly of Jim to give me an infraction and then run off like he did. Giving infractions is gay! So lame. I hate this site. Please cancel my subscription and I will be going. Thank you!

I think it pointless repeating what Steve has already posted but you can take that as being an accurate response as far as I'm concerned.

Inferring that people are cowardly and potentially gay will garner you no credit or credibility in this community and quite frankly suggesting I 'ran off' is laughable at best.

Your infraction was given at 7-05pm and I was on the forum till 10-05pm (all times GMT).

An identical infraction was given just two days prior by the forum owner and I'm comfortable in the belief I didn't brig you and gave you further consideration in the hope the message or warning would sink in.

If your serious in leaving the forum then goodbye but you do have the right to contact Neal and state your obvious grievance to him.

As far as I'm concerned my position is clear and the infraction should remain.

I would not normally post the above publicly but you chose to do so after I had supposedly 'ran off'.

Any further exchanges on this matter should be via PM if you would be so kind.

[Ducimus]

Cheap stereotypes it is then.

When you, yourself make ignorant blanket statements inspired by an emotional knee jerk, expect nothing less.

C'mon, you know. This case was a witch hunt from the start. The media and politicians put in on the national stage over race, when nothing about this case had to do with race. Worse, now that GZ was found not guilty, our federal govt is stepping in when they cleary have to reason to do so. Now Sharpton is leading large protest in 100 cities this weekend that will cost taxpayers millions, shut towns down etc...and who knows what violence or rioting. Al "the pimp" Sharpton and all his cronies just stirring the racist pot to keep themselves in the forefront. If Holder charges GZ with racism, it's nothing more than a lynching. Again, it's saying if someone of another race is beating my head in, If I defend myself, I could be a racist. Heck, even a racist has the right to defend his life.

The real issue isn't GZ, it's stand your ground. Why aren't we having a 100 major protest for the poor black woman in jail for firing a warning shot and stopping an abusive husband. Maybe it's because it's black on black and no one can scream racism.

What about Corey, playing the role of civil rights leader, still calling GZ a murderer? She just doesn't want anybody to call her out for the racist SA that she is.

GZ has become the goat for people to push their agendas, cover their arses and make money.

They should ban the damn media from court rooms, they turn the system into a drama, making millions off commericials and become judge and jury. They should atleast charge the media to pay for the millions it cost taxpayers.

I'm starting to think this whole thing blown to the proportion it has, is the result more liberal progressive BS. It's pretty obvious they're using it as a springboard for their agendas. Obama's already done just that, holders jumping on the bandwagon. It's just more political BS. 1 +1 = 3 to these people.

[Wolferz]

It isn't about race in any way, shape or form. It was just another incident of human on human. Man's inhumanity to man. Nothing more, nothing less.
But, there are those out there that want to make it a race issue for nefarious purposes. Personally, I think they can all go suck eggs with the talking heads in the news media.
I'm going to remain color blind.

[CaptainHaplo]

On that night last February, when he got out of his car, George Zimmerman became the judge and jury of Trayvon Martin, accused of the crime of being a black male teenager walking in a neighborhood.

Mookie, you keep making claims - yet you refuse to reference any evidence that demonstrates it. Your whole premise here is racism, as if you bought into the NBC tape edit at the start. Point to facts and evidence, rebut the ones produced. Your not debating, your making baseless claims not supported by evidence. Your intentionally ignoring exculpatory facts just to hold onto your view. Slow down, examine the facts, then lets debate them. So far you have just accused with absolutely no listing of evidence to back up your claims. So - show us as I have the evidence that supports your viewpoint. Otherwise, your perspective sounds like unfounded accusations and a refusal to accept the judicial verdict because you emotionally feel it "wasn't fair".

Hap, your attempts to make him into anything more nefarious than that are ridiculous. Your attempts to paint him as some black thug are an attempt to justify the shooting of a kid who, before GZ got out of the car, was just walking down the street. They're nothing more than fearmongering.

What TM was doing that night we truly will never know. What was in his head we will never fully know. I am not attempting to "paint him as some black thug" - the evidence shows that HE wanted to be seen as exactly that. I provide those facts not to justify the shooting, merely to put the altercation that occurred into context regarding the 2 people. Him being - or not being - a thug do not justify the shooting. Him getting on top of GZ in a "ground and pound, MMA style" beatdown to smash his head into concrete - where GZ could not retreat - does, under the law, justify the use of deadly force in self defense.

The organized hordes of blacks invading your neighborhoods to steal your goods and carry off your women exist only in your head.

I have never made such a claim - and you know it. Again, emotional sensationalism is not the way to carry out a debate or discussion. Making accusations and trying to belittle an opponent is a tactic one uses when you can't stand on facts. It reeks of tribesman - and your much better than that. You are in essence claiming that I am racist with it, and that is uncalled for.

TM resisted that judgement and he paid for that his life, and GZ got away with it due to a law that legalizes murder. That's wrong.

Again the racism claim. You know that racism claims were started by a heavily edited NBC 911 call, you know GZ was investigated to see if he had a racist background and the outcome was no. That investigation was done at both the local level and by the FBI and both determined that race was NOT an issue. Yet you cling to it when every evidence is that its false. Why?

Is that the only way you can see things, through the lens of "the so called white-Hispanic dude is an evil racist "? Doesn't your preoccupation with the race issue - that has been shown to be factually unfounded - say something significant about you?

You have always tended to deal with facts - and this time your steadfastly ignoring them. I get that you disagree with the law - so what would you replace it with?

I can see where GZ should have some liability here because he put himself in a position that was foreseeably dangerous (based on his own assumptions) while carrying. That reeks of irresponsibility and is a contributing factor in the whole matter. As a carrying gun owner, GZ had a responsibility not to put himself in that situation. That is why I said from the start that he should be charged with negligent homicide. Yet your whole claim that the law "legalized" this "murder" ignores TM's actions. Following someone in your own community on public and semi-public grounds does not give them the legal right to try and smash your head in.

[Sailor Steve]

I've been having some thoughts about this, and I see some comparisons to another famous trial - that of the LAPD officers who beat Rodney King. In that case they were charged with something close to attempted murder. It was obvious they weren't trying to murder him, and they weren't charged with abuse of authority or any of the things that they obviously were guilty of. I've alway wondered whether the prosecution in that case filed extreme charges they knew they couldn't make stick.

I'm starting to wonder the same in this case. A cousin of mine is one of the many saying Zimmerman was allowed to "get away with murder". That's a problem to me, because the whole case hinged on that charge. I would say that Zimmerman was guilty of stupidity, which in most cases is not a crime. Was he guilty of reckless endagerment? I don't know. The jury found that he wasn't guilty of murder, which from all the evidence he almost certainly wasn't. Was Zimmerman partly at fault? I would say almost certainly. "Almost", because like everyone else I wasn't there. That's just my opinion.

Are there other charges that could have been filed against Zimmerman? Charges that were more in line with what actually seems to have happened? If not, then there's no problem. If so, why weren't they filed on top of, or instead of, charges that don't seem to fit the actual circumstances. Much has been made of the prosecution's incompetence. Were they really incompetent, or smarter than they let on.

Just something to think about.

[Armistead]

As Holder investigates GZ as a racist, even though he's been cleared by a jury and the FBI as not, why aren't they investigating TM as one as well? There is plenty evidence that TM hated white people, used drugs, was violent. Maybe he was a teen, partaking of the youth rap culture, but shouldn't he be checked out as well? They claim GZ is a racist, so his motivations have to be checked, well, let's go full circle.

[AVGWarhawk]

As Holder investigates GZ as a racist, even though he's been cleared by a jury and the FBI as not, why aren't they investigating TM as one as well? There is plenty evidence that TM hated white people, used drugs, was violent. Maybe he was a teen, partaking of the youth rap culture, but shouldn't he be checked out as well? They claim GZ is a racist, so his motivations have to be checked, well, let's go full circle.

The court of public and media opinion is TM was a good kid simply getting Skittles.

Never mind the pictures. :doh:

[CaptainHaplo]

A valid point, Steve.

There is little doubt that the case against DZ was brought due to a public outcry - aka political pressure. The DA for the district refused to press charges, so the governor went and found a DA who would. Did they overcharge? Certainly.

GZ should have been charged with homicide, not murder. The reason is because in Fl, the statute defines what homicide is, as well as what is "excusable" homicide. Based on that statute, GZ would have been guilty of "negligent" homicide since the statute requires "usual ordinary caution" and he was negligent of that standard by going armed into a foreseeably danger situation by choice. This has been my statement all along.

Note that the prosecution asked for - and got - manslaughter in as an additional charge, as well as they attempted 3rd degree murder and child abuse. Yet they didn't ask for a negligent homicide charge. Wonder why....

There is no doubt that the DA that brought the case wanted to see GZ in jail till he was killed by those inside. Her actions were totally unethical and downright despicable. She put her career on the line to get this case to court - which is why she is being investigated right now for it and is likely to be disbarred.

The issue for so many folks is that many see GZ as having "got away with murder", while many others see it as a refusal to accept a judicial process that may not always be perfect, but works for us. Many people are sure OJ got away with murder - but you don't and didn't see "whites" out protesting in the streets, vandalizing police cars or setting up 100 marches across the country. The Black community is more suspicious of the justice system generally speaking - but that does not excuse a refusal to accept a system that works. Either accept it as is, or work within the system to change it. But too many would rather just blame it all on the "creepy ass crackers".

[AVGWarhawk]

I've been having some thoughts about this, and I see some comparisons to another famous trial - that of the LAPD officers who beat Rodney King. In that case they were charged with something close to attempted murder. It was obvious they weren't trying to murder him, and they weren't charged with abuse of authority or any of the things that they obviously were guilty of. I've alway wondered whether the prosecution in that case filed extreme charges they knew they couldn't make stick.

I'm starting to wonder the same in this case. A cousin of mine is one of the many saying Zimmerman was allowed to "get away with murder". That's a problem to me, because the whole case hinged on that charge. I would say that Zimmerman was guilty of stupidity, which in most cases is not a crime. Was he guilty of reckless endagerment? I don't know. The jury found that he wasn't guilty of murder, which from all the evidence he almost certainly wasn't. Was Zimmerman partly at fault? I would say almost certainly. "Almost", because like everyone else I wasn't there. That's just my opinion.

Are there other charges that could have been filed against Zimmerman? Charges that were more in line with what actually seems to have happened? If not, then there's no problem. If so, why weren't they filed on top of, or instead of, charges that don't seem to fit the actual circumstances. Much has been made of the prosecution's incompetence. Were they really incompetent, or smarter than they let on.

Just something to think about.


Steve,

The state should have looked for a lesser charge, as you noted, that they could prove. Unfortunate the prosecution had chosen poorly. I suspect that the pressure from DOJ, few words by BO and public opinion would make this a open and shut case. Well it was, under the law, shut in one week.

[August]

As a carrying gun owner, GZ had a responsibility not to put himself in that situation.


I pretty much agree with the rest of your post Hap with the exception of the above. As a Neighborhood Watch person he was doing exactly what the name implies, watching. Keeping tabs on a suspicious person moving into the neighborhood.

Let's play a what if:

What if this wasn't just a kid on his way home? What if he really was a criminal up to no good like the last few times mysterious hooded figures were sighted in the neighborhood? Zimmerman never gets out of his car and looses track of him. The cops come, take their report and leave. The next day the body of an elderly woman is found on her kitchen floor murdered by the criminal that was allowed to move unseen through the community.

I'll bet a form of this scenario runs through every neighborhood watch persons mind when it comes time to decide whether to continue following a suspicious person or break it off.

[soopaman2]

Steve,

The state should have looked for a lesser charge, as you noted, that they could prove. Unfortunate the prosecution had chosen poorly. I suspect that the pressure from DOJ, few words by BO and public opinion would make this a open and shut case. Well it was, under the law, shut in one week.


When the murder 2 charge came down I felt it was too harsh. (I said it in the other Zimmerman thread)

By then I had seen his (GZ) injuries.

Obama and Holder are stoking a fire.

If you had a son Mr. President, he would be a gangbanger, always in fight, a drug user, with violent twitter messages, and texts on his phone.

If Holder had a son, he would be the one taking money from the Mexican Cartels for for the guns that were bought and paid for by all us.

How many headless corpses in town squares are on his conscious?

Obama should be easing this, if he was any bit presidential. He kinda had a hand in racializing this.

[Tribesman]

It isn't about race in any way, shape or form.
Sadly this forum has proven otherwise.

Let's play a what if:

What if this wasn't just a kid on his way home? What if he really was a criminal up to no good like the last few times mysterious hooded figures were sighted in the neighborhood? Zimmerman never gets out of his car and looses track of him. The cops come, take their report and leave. The next day the body of an elderly woman is found on her kitchen floor murdered by the criminal that was allowed to move unseen through the community.


Lets play what if:
What if this dead person was a woman.
Mr hero decides she looks like a prostitute because of what she is wearing so she must be up to no good, he doesn't want criminals on his street so starts stalking her.
An altercation occurs where it is impossible to decide as undisputable fact who started it, she ends up dead.
Lets see all the dog whistle fans queue up to try and paint the woman as a person with a dodgy backround who was simply asking for it and brought it on herself by managing to land a bitch slap on her stalker.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sadly this forum has proven otherwise.


Lets play what if:
What if this dead person was a woman.
Mr hero decides she looks like a prostitute because of what she is wearing so she must be up to no good, he doesn't want criminals on his street so starts stalking her.
An altercation occurs where it is impossible to decide as undisputable fact who started it, she ends up dead.
Lets see all the dog whistle fans queue up to try and paint the woman as a person with a dodgy backround who was simply asking for it and brought it on herself by managing to land a bitch slap on her stalker.

Hmmmm...it would seem many(not just in the US mind you) blame women for incidents that happen to them(rape/labeling) because of what she is wearing or acting. This would be an entire other thread. I think I would select another what if. Stick to what we know in this case.

[Tribesman]

Stick to what we know in this case.
I would say that nearly 99% of what is in this topic is not what people know but is pure conjecture built on piles of partial information which is then often presented as fact.

BTW any thoughts on the juror Ducimus brought into the topic?
You know, the one that was doing a book deal on Monday but not doing it come Tuesday.
How many of the other jurors have issued a statement about her interview and the views she expressed?

[soopaman2]

I would say that nearly 99% of what is in this topic is not what people know but is pure conjecture built on piles of partial information which is then often presented as fact.

BTW any thoughts on the juror Ducimus brought into the topic?
You know, the one that was doing a book deal on Monday but not doing it come Tuesday.
How many of the other jurors have issued a statement about her interview and the views she expressed?


They all also stated they judged it according to the letter of the law, and the burden of proof (or lack therof) presented by the prosecution.

The burden lies on the accuser, not the accused here.

The jury even seeked clarifications on manslaughter, they looked, they did due dilligence, but according to the law of FL it did not fit..

I found the defense did the job of the prosecution, they more than proved Zimmerman was in fear of his life.

The prosecution was full of "coulda woulda shoulda".

I watched the trial, I came into it thinking Zimmerman was scum.

I am now defending him, I am willing to eat crow, why don't some of you admit you are reacting from emotion, and not the laws of the land?

If it is any consolation, if that would have happened in NJ, zimm would be eating a manslaughter charge, despite his injuries. (states rights, vast regional differences)

They expect you to just die here, then again we got like 9 million people.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would say that nearly 99% of what is in this topic is not what people know but is pure conjecture built on piles of partial information which is then often presented as fact.

BTW any thoughts on the juror Ducimus brought into the topic?
You know, the one that was doing a book deal on Monday but not doing it come Tuesday.
How many of the other jurors have issued a statement about her interview and the views she expressed?

The conjecture was the game plan of the prosecution. They knew perhaps a little more than we do.


The juror who spoke out Monday, it would seem to me, is attempting to clear her conscience. Late last night other jury members spoke out and said B37 views are not theirs and she can not speak for all the jury members.

"We, the undersigned jurors, understand there is a great deal of interest in this case. But we ask you to remember that we are not public officials and we did not invite this type of attention into our lives," they said. "We also wish to point out that the opinions of Juror B-37, expressed on the Anderson Cooper show were her own, and not in any way representative of the jurors listed below."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-jurors-b37-spoke-interview/story?id=19684121#.Uea_Fo3VDNI

[CaptainHaplo]

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post Hap with the exception of the above. As a Neighborhood Watch person he was doing exactly what the name implies, watching. Keeping tabs on a suspicious person moving into the neighborhood.

Let's play a what if:

Ok, lets.

What if this wasn't just a kid on his way home?

Well, we don't know it Trayvon was or wasn't "just a kid on his way home" when Martin initially saw him. At the least, the evidence shows that he was committing no crime in the transit - other than being in possession of child porn that is.

What if he really was a criminal up to no good like the last few times mysterious hooded figures were sighted in the neighborhood? Zimmerman never gets out of his car and looses track of him.

Nope - the cops come and their own quick patrol through the neighborhood. Standard procedure dictates that they do so. In this case, TM would have either continued home or been caught lurking in ambush. Either way, he would be alive. But in your hypothetical, the cops patrol and find the bad guy - or they don't.

The cops come, take their report and leave. The next day the body of an elderly woman is found on her kitchen floor murdered by the criminal that was allowed to move unseen through the community.

Maybe - or they catch the guy before he commits a crime. If they don't catch him and it happens - its a tragedy. Yet so is what happened in this case. Changing one tragedy for another isn't the right answer here.

The thing is - a community watch program is not about "go chase that suspicious person" - its about keeping an eye out for your neighbor. GZ could easily have called a few of the community watch members and had them all be on the lookout for a suspicious person while waiting on the cops. He didn't. He pursued - which was a significant factor in the altercation.

I'll bet a form of this scenario runs through every neighborhood watch persons mind when it comes time to decide whether to continue following a suspicious person or break it off.

Given that the 911 dispatcher told GZ that "we don't need you to do that" - it shouldn't go through their mind at all. Call your neighbors, get lights turned on, and wait for the cops. In fact, I have been a member of a neighborhood watch program and we had the local authorities work with us on how we could help them without causing ourselves or them any issues.

GZ thinks TM is suspicious. There have been robberies. He doesn't know if TM is armed or not. Going to follow the guy knowing YOUR armed - is willingly going into a foreseeable dangerous, possibly deadly situation without knowledge. As a gun owner and carrier, that is not right in my book. If I am walking down the road and see a crime, I will react to protect human life. But I will not go peeping into peoples windows to make sure they are not being slaughtered in their kitchens. GZ went too far while carrying - and thus he did not use all usual, ordinary caution in this case. A firearm is as much a responsibility as it is a right.

Oh - and for the record - there is a reason its called neighborhood watch - not neighborhood "patrol" or "pursuit". Because that is just what your supposed to do - watch and report, nothing more.

[Armistead]

Sadly this forum has proven otherwise.


Lets play what if:
What if this dead person was a woman.
Mr hero decides she looks like a prostitute because of what she is wearing so she must be up to no good, he doesn't want criminals on his street so starts stalking her.
An altercation occurs where it is impossible to decide as undisputable fact who started it, she ends up dead.
Lets see all the dog whistle fans queue up to try and paint the woman as a person with a dodgy backround who was simply asking for it and brought it on herself by managing to land a bitch slap on her stalker.

It's actually people like you making it racist, when its's clear this wasn't a case of racism, proven by a jury and a FBI profile. However, even a racist has the right to defend their life.

The conjecture is being done by people like you and the media with all these what ifs, what if it was a woman, what if Tray was white and GZ was black. Nothing at all to do with this case.

Holder again is investigating GZ as a racist, should he not then investigate TM as well, his texting, all his friends, etc? The state didn't make it a race issue because their was no evidence. They knew if they pushed a racial theme, that would allow the defense to use TM's past history as well. Now Holder is doing the same. Ok, investigate TM's racial motives as well. Holder knows he has no case, this is politics. He will let the investigation go for months until the situation calms down. He certainly won't charge, because then the total truth will come out.

Certainly blacks have issues and concerns with the justice system, but find a case that has merit, such as the woman locked up for 20 years for standing her ground, instead of finding a goat because he's white. Heck, I would gladly protest for that poor black woman rotting in jail.

This case is smoke and mirrors. The real racist are the state led by Corey, who broke numerous laws, now playing the race card to cover up all her past racism. All the news channels using a picture of TM as a 12 year old, claiming a child has been murdered. When I was 17, I bet I could whoop 70% of adult males.

There is true and real racist concerns in America, we should be working on those issues, not offering up a goat because politicians and preachers want to incite for their own gain and attention. The only thing that is gonna happen here is race relations will be set back decades.

[Ducimus]

When the murder 2 charge came down I felt it was too harsh. (I said it in the other Zimmerman thread)

By then I had seen his (GZ) injuries.

Obama and Holder are stoking a fire.

If you had a son Mr. President, he would be a gangbanger, always in fight, a drug user, with violent twitter messages, and texts on his phone.

If Holder had a son, he would be the one taking money from the Mexican Cartels for for the guns that were bought and paid for by all us.

How many headless corpses in town squares are on his conscious?

Obama should be easing this, if he was any bit presidential. He kinda had a hand in racializing this.

Why do you think their stoking the fire? It's getting everyones eyes and minds off of things like what the NSA is doing, the IRS scandal, getting snowden, and all the other scandals plauging this government and administration.

In that regard, they have been extremely successful thus far. It's like someone backed into a corner about the get the tar beat out of them, who looks over, point's and says, "Hey look at that!" and then runs.

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh - and for the record - there is a reason its called neighborhood watch - not neighborhood "patrol" or "pursuit". Because that is just what your supposed to do - watch and report, nothing more.

:yep:

[soopaman2]

Why do you think their stoking the fire? It's getting everyones eyes and minds off of things like what the NSA is doing, the IRS scandal, getting snowden, and all the other scandals plauging this government and administration.

In that regard, they have been extremely successful thus far. It's like someone backed into a corner about the get the tar beat out of them, who looks over, point's and says, "Hey look at that!" and then runs.

I cannot debate that, I was reffering to igniting racial tensions and riots, which have happened.

Nothing better than a good diversionary tactic!

At the expense of Trayvon Martins family, and George Zimmermans family.
Who is living in hiding, even post exoneration

I am waiting for it to hit you tube, but Robert Zimmerman was on a morning show I listen to, and talked, answered question for 2 hours.

He confirmed a lawsuit his brother will pursue with NBC for the cleverly edited tapes (anything for rating!)

He is very articulate, and was never insulting to TM, he spoke on facts.

Only you tube clips I can find is his June interview with the same hosts, I just found the post verdict interview much more informative.

After all, we heard alot from Benjamin Crump, the Martin familly ambulance chaser.

Will drop the link, when a faithful O and A fan posts it on you tube, it happened just this week, usually the pests are faster than this.

[Ducimus]

I cannot debate that, I was reffering to igniting racial tensions and riots, which have happened.



Certainly a foregone conclusion. I've seen pictures in various news articles (LAtimes i think, i can't remember), of said protesters. Large mobs of protesters stopping traffic on the freeway and other such shennanigans.

Of course, riots in LA are not unheard of. :roll:

[soopaman2]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-al-sharpton/george-zimmerman-verdict_b_3600721.html

Stoke those fires Al, it is the only reason he lives in luxury.

Tawanna Brawley anyone?

Duke Lacrosse team anyone?

Hello? (echoes)

See what I mean about stoking fires?

[Webster]

Once again someone pretending to righteous anger misrepresents me. I don't care about the language. It's the rules I care about.

You want to play the rebellious boy, that's your business, but please leave me out of it.

but aren't you the resident spelling checker? lol :up:

[soopaman2]

but aren't you the resident spelling checker? lol :up:

Someone has to do, you appreciate it after it is gone, kinda like Superman, when he gave up his powers, for that fame-whore Lois Lane and the world turned to chaos!

We love our Sailor Steve.
*Bugs Bunny smooch, then dives in a rabbit hole*
:rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Tribesman]

It's actually people like you making it racist
Not at all, its the people with a chip on their shoulder over being "white victims" as was evident from the very first topic on the incident.
Since it has been followed by a wide variety of very racist comments by people in defence of their views it is indisputable.


The conjecture is being done by people like you and the media with all these what ifs, what if it was a woman, what if Tray was white and GZ was black. Nothing at all to do with this case.

So you are going to jump on the "what if" I quoted too and attack that?
The conjecture is being done by all including yourself so get off your high horse

Holder again is investigating GZ as a racist, should he not then investigate TM as well, his texting, all his friends, etc?
If a complaint is made then they are obliged to investigate.
How do you suggest he investigates for any possible prosecution of a dead person?
You really didn't think that through did you.

There is true and real racist concerns in America, we should be working on those issues, not offering up a goat because politicians and preachers want to incite for their own gain and attention. The only thing that is gonna happen here is race relations will be set back decades.
And all sides are playing dog whistle politics, you know the same crap will be repeated again and again whenever the next incident comes up and the next and the next just like it has with past incidents.


@AVG
The conjecture was the game plan of the prosecution. They knew perhaps a little more than we do.

It was also the game plan of the defence.

@Soopa
The burden lies on the accuser, not the accused here.

You keep repeating that, sometimes with the addition of unlike other places.
Can you name these places which don't follow that old roman principle?
I watched the trial, I came into it thinking Zimmerman was scum.

I am now defending him, I am willing to eat crow, why don't some of you admit you are reacting from emotion, and not the laws of the land?

I came into it thinking he was dumb, I still think he is dumb.
Why did you think he was scum?
What are these emotions you are on about?

[MH]

:haha:According to some laws in USA Tribsman could shoot someone every single day by provoking certain situation and then get away with it claiming in self defense/standing ground or whatever it is called.:haha:

Zimmerman is this sort in a way but he had more luck than brains.
The law makes it possible for people to act irresponsibly or even provoke violence due to confidence of gun.

[soopaman2]

.

@Soopa

You keep repeating that, sometimes with the addition of unlike other places.
Can you name these places which don't follow that old roman principle?

Not a list, but in Americas infancy we adopted the rules of innocent before proven guilty to contradict English law, where you were scum if a cop/official said you were, and were free to steal all your holdings along with it. You truly do not understand our boisterousness, nor do I expect you.

Those in Europe with no knowledge of our laws seem to be the most opinionated, and least flexible to someone explaining how it is for us, from a citizen, what you read about us in your newspaper is crap.

No one in europe can ever understand the black/vs white stigma, as we still live with the crap from the mid 1800s.

The minute the clarion horn for rascism is called, all the creeps come out of the woodwork looking for retribution. Once again, I do not expect you to understand. (though I am sure you will critisize)

You also asked why I thought it stunk to high hell at first?

Msnbc edited the 911 tapes, and hid the pics of the injuries to Zimmerman. Thats why! Glad I watched the trial.

Inciting a riot, once again, I do not expect you to understand how rascism still divides us, or how the media used it to make for great ratings, and tons of ad dollars.

Nieve. Truly, you are.

Sorry Trayvon beat up an armed citizen, ever read his twitter, or texts? he liked kicking peoples asses.

That will come out in the civil trial too, we will see the character of the young fair innocent Trayvon (I love how they use a of picture of him when he was 12)

[Sailor Steve]

but aren't you the resident spelling checker? lol :up:
Nope. As I've also said many times before, spelling doesn't bother me. Even a little off-kilter grammar doesn't get me going. It's when someone with an American or British education can't write the language properly at all that my teeth start to hurt. :sunny:

[Sailor Steve]

Not a list, but in Americas infancy we adopted the rules of innocent before proven guilty to contradict English law, where you were scum if a cop/official said you were, and were free to steal all your holdings along with it.
Umm...

One would much rather that twenty guilty persons should escape the punishment of death, than that one innocent person should be condemned and suffer capitally.
Sir John Fortescue, De Laudibus Legum Angliae, 1470

All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.
Sir William Blackstone, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1760+

It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever.
John Adams, defense council at the 'Boston Massacre' trial, 1770

American law got it from English law while we were still English.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tribesman:
It was also the game plan of the defence.

But with a twist. Defense needed to prove nothing.

[Armistead]

Just saw on the news that the DOJ under Holder has now set up a email public tip/hotline so anyone can report possible racism by GZ. Hard to believe this is true, but seems so. Any doubt now about a political witch hunt...

[Tribesman]

Not a list, but in Americas infancy we adopted the rules of innocent before proven guilty to contradict English law, where you were scum if a cop/official said you were, and were free to steal all your holdings along with it. You truly do not understand our boisterousness, nor do I expect you.

Those in Europe with no knowledge of our laws seem to be the most opinionated, and least flexible to someone explaining how it is for us, from a citizen, what you read about us in your newspaper is crap.

No one in europe can ever understand the black/vs white stigma, as we still live with the crap from the mid 1800s.


How many times can you be completely wrong in a single reply?

[soopaman2]

Just saw on the news that the DOJ under Holder has now set up a email public tip/hotline so anyone can report possible racism by GZ. Hard to believe this is true, but seems so. Any doubt now about a political witch hunt...


Hey holder, fast and furious?

Wall Street hucksters?

Ol fat Georgy! A ha! *waves his finger over-dramatically*

KILL HIM WITH FIRE!
(or the press)

King Eric owns both.

[Armistead]

Hey holder, fast and furious?

Wall Street hucksters?

Ol fat Georgy! A ha! *waves his finger over-dramatically*

KILL HIM WITH FIRE!
(or the press)

King Eric owns both.


I reported my tip, that Corey and Holder should be investigated.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just saw on the news that the DOJ under Holder has now set up a email public tip/hotline so anyone can report possible racism by GZ. Hard to believe this is true, but seems so. Any doubt now about a political witch hunt...

DOJ is not beyond pulling a stunt like this. Additionally, a waste of tax payer money.

[soopaman2]

I reported my tip, that Corey and Holder should be investigated.



http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/07/11/Ex-Police-Chief-Political-Pressure-Cost-Me-My-Job-for-Not-Arresting-Zimmerman


All seriousness, this came from political pressure. Lets hope Bill Lee is not forever shamed in this, even though his judgement was right, as confirmed by jury trial.

How would you like your way of life being taken because you did not toe the political line.

Angela Corey is a .....

Holder should investigate her, trying to use this case to become the next Bob Kardashian, or Johnny Cochran, maybe a job on HLN with Nancy Grace.

(way too ugly of a wench)

[Ducimus]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/07/11/Ex-Police-Chief-Political-Pressure-Cost-Me-My-Job-for-Not-Arresting-Zimmerman


All seriousness, this came from political pressure. Lets hope Bill Lee is not forever shamed in this, even though his judgement was right, as confirmed by jury trial.

How would you like your way of life being taken because you did not toe the political line.

Angela Corey is a .....

Holder should investigate her, trying to use this case to become the next Bob Kardashian, or Johnny Cochran, maybe a job on HLN with Nancy Grace.

(way too ugly of a wench)

This is repugnant.

[Armistead]

HLN {Hysterical Ladies Network} disgust me. It's all about ratings to stir the pot and incite with people like Ali, Taffey, etc. I don't even care much for Dr. Drew. The news stinks, HBO is constant repeats, the once beloved History Channel is about a bunch of swamp people and pawn shows. Seems all that is left is Subsim...:yeah:

[Ducimus]

More repugnancy.

Just like you said Armistead

DOJ trolling for email tips in Zimmerman probe (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/17/doj-seeking-tips-in-zimmerman-probe/)

More than a year after an FBI report indicated there was no evidence of racial bias in George Zimmerman's history, the Justice Department is trolling for email tips on the former neighborhood watch volunteer as it weighs a possible federal civil rights case against him.

Amid pressure from the NAACP and several Democratic lawmakers to pursue Zimmerman, the department has set up a public email address asking for any tips or information regarding the case.

Interestingly enough, CNN is oddly mute on that; not that it surprises me that foxnews would front page it, and cnn would say little no nothing at all.

Agenda, agenda, agenda.

[Tribesman]

Agenda, agenda, agenda.
Indeed?
From your link
A Justice official told Fox News that both the conference call and the email address asking for tips and information are fairly standard procedure when dealing with a high-profile investigation such as this one. The department has used such tip lines in the past, including in a probe last year of the Albuquerque, N.M., police department.
So Fox reports that its fairly standard and CNN says nothing, unless you look in "5 stories not to miss" on CNN

This is repugnant.
Why is the story taken from CNN then?
I thought they didn't do them stories because of their agenda:rotfl2:

[Armistead]

Indeed?
From your link
A Justice official told Fox News that both the conference call and the email address asking for tips and information are fairly standard procedure when dealing with a high-profile investigation such as this one. The department has used such tip lines in the past, including in a probe last year of the Albuquerque, N.M., police department.
So Fox reports that its fairly standard and CNN says nothing, unless you look in "5 stories not to miss" on CNN


Why is the story taken from CNN then?
I thought they didn't do them stories because of their agenda:rotfl2:



Ok, when was the last case of a person being found not guilty, already profiled by the state and FBI as a non racist, a mere citizen, had the DOJ create a hotline to further check he was a racist?

Since it's so common, sure it won't take you long to state numerous instances, but I won't be holding my breath.

[AVGWarhawk]

DOJ is attempting to quell the masses. They had nothing the day after the incident. They had nothing 44 days after the incident when GZ was arrested after pressure to do so made them cave. They have nothing today supported by the FBI findings. Which is nothing. Furthermore, should the tip line and email been created a year ago? Johnny come lately?

[Ducimus]

This should piss some people off.

It's Just some random dude's opinion, but I love how he's in your face about it.
George Zimmerman Receives Justice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OegWOqyoh28)

[Father Goose]

Just saw on the news that the DOJ under Holder has now set up a email public tip/hotline so anyone can report possible racism by GZ. Hard to believe this is true, but seems so. Any doubt now about a political witch hunt...

With the DOJ so focused on getting dirt on this "White-Hispanic", Edward Snowden could walk down Constitution Avenue and not even be noticed! :har:

[CaptainHaplo]

With the DOJ so focused on getting dirt on this "White-Hispanic", Edward Snowden could walk down Constitution Avenue and not even be noticed! :har:

Oh I dunno - he's white, so he must be racist too apparently. I mean even his name is racist, isn't it?

[Father Goose]

I reported my tip, that Corey and Holder should be investigated.

Did you really report that? That's hilarious. :har:

[Armistead]

Did you really report that? That's hilarious. :har:


I sent it to the email....1000's are doing the same with all sorts of mess I imagine.

I'll probably get audited by the IRS next go.....:O:

[Father Goose]

I sent it to the email....1000's are doing the same with all sorts of mess I imagine.

I'll probably get audited by the IRS next go.....:O:

Don't worry...with the soon to be IRS budget cut they won't have the money to audit you. :O:
I hope you signed it, "Admiral Armistead". :D
I'll sign mine, "Captain Goose". That will throw them off! :har:

[Tribesman]

Ok, when was the last case of a person being found not guilty, already profiled by the state and FBI as a non racist, a mere citizen, had the DOJ create a hotline to further check he was a racist?

Since it's so common, sure it won't take you long to state numerous instances, but I won't be holding my breath.
Nice try, but you really are letting your emotions run wild in desperation.

Lets get back to the bit where you didn't think.
you know the obligations thing that comes after a complaint.:yep:
Now couple it with the actual statement you are desperately trying to attack but failing
What part of the words "high profile" don't you understand?
What element of "alledged violation of civil rights" is too complicated for you to grasp?

[Armistead]

Nice try, but you really are letting your emotions run wild in desperation.

Lets get back to the bit where you didn't think.
you know the obligations thing that comes after a complaint.:yep:
Now couple it with the actual statement you are desperately trying to attack but failing
What part of the words "high profile" don't you understand?
What element of "alledged violation of civil rights" is too complicated for you to grasp?

As expected, you can't name one case.

OK, I'll ask again. Name one HIGH PROFILE case where the FBI and the state determined a person wasn't racist, then found not guilty by jury trial and the DOJ opened an investigation on them for civil rights violations?

It's not complicated at all, because no violations exist. He was found not guilty. If the prosecution had a claim for civil rights violation, they had their chance to include it. They could find none. Now the DOJ/Holder/Obama/ and many others want to replace the jury process with their personal witch hunts. The time to argue your civil rights claim is before and during the trial, not after.

We all know where the real civil rights violations exist, against GZ.......

[Armistead]

Don't worry...with the soon to be IRS budget cut they won't have the money to audit you. :O:
I hope you signed it, "Admiral Armistead". :D
I'll sign mine, "Captain Goose". That will throw them off! :har:

I signed it "Father Goose", used your email and told the IRS to go , er, well, some choice words. I knew you wouldn't mind, so no need to thank me...:yeah:

[Tribesman]

As expected, you can't name one case.

OK, I'll ask again. Name one HIGH PROFILE case where the FBI and the state determined a person wasn't racist, then found not guilty by jury trial and the DOJ opened an investigation on them for civil rights violations?

As expected you still didn't think it through.
Did you even consider following back for the information from Ducimus' link?
The investigation wasn't opened after the trial it is the same earlier investigation which is still open and will remain open until it is closed. That's the process and they already have that obligation to follow it through.
Despite what some people have claimed, the FBI investigation is still open too.
Though it was news to me that the States investigation was still open too as I thought they had passed that up the chain.

It's not complicated at all, because no violations exist. He was found not guilty. If the prosecution had a claim for civil rights violation, they had their chance to include it. They could find none. Now the DOJ/Holder/Obama/ and many others want to replace the jury process with their personal witch hunts. The time to argue your civil rights claim is before and during the trial, not after.

You are on completely the wrong track, you are getting your timeline of events backwards and are confusing one process with another which is entirely separate.

What is funny is the complaints about political interference since the trial. This process started in motion as soon as someone made the claims over civil rights, which was just after the tragic incident.
That process must be followed to its conclusion as set out in DoJ policy, stopping the process just because of a separate court verdict would be political interference.

It doesn't take much of a memory to recall civil rights investigations which have remained open for over 40 years and have lead to convictions of people cleared of killing someone in a States court decades previously.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Uh, why does Tribesman care so deeply about something happening in the United States which will affect him in no way whatsoever? Why do I get the vibe the only reason he does care is BECAUSE it's in the United States?

[Father Goose]

I signed it "Father Goose", used your email and told the IRS to go , er, well, some choice words. I knew you wouldn't mind, so no need to thank me...:yeah:

Great! :nope:
I guess one less thing for me to do today.
Hey...they're gonna have trouble finding Matalava Island. :O:

[Father Goose]

Uh, why does Tribesman care so deeply about something happening in the United States which will affect him in no way whatsoever? Why do I get the vibe the only reason he does care is BECAUSE it's in the United States?

I'd just like to know why Tribesman can't include "Originally Posted by..." in his quotes? :O:

[Tribesman]

Uh, why does Tribesman care so deeply about something happening in the United States which will affect him in no way whatsoever? Why do I get the vibe the only reason he does care is BECAUSE it's in the United States?
A huge assumption with a CAPSLOCK for good measure.
I think that's the funniest assumption since Ducimus said US firearms legislation doesn't affect foriegners or Soopa said 300 million people in Europe can know nothing about US history.
In case you missed it earlier TvM what country do you think I was in when my dickhead of an uncle grabbed a gun and threatened a "******" who was walking in his little gated community?

[Jimbuna]

Time to cool things a little and let Neal decide if this thread reopens.