It's Time to Stop Blaming Germany for WWI

[Onkel Neal]

Interesting article!
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/06/28/don_t_blame_germany_for_world_war_i.html?wpisrc=ob insite

Serbia and its Russian superpower sponsor were genuinely trying to destroy the Habsburg empire. Franz Ferdinand's assassins really did have ties to the Serbian state. He was assassinated in part because he was known to be a moderate who favored further decentralization of imperial authority and concessions to the interests of South Slavs, and Serbian nationalists thought his rise to power would undermine their effort to incorporate Bosnia, Croatia, and Slovenia into Serbia.* The authorities in Vienna and Berlin had a legitimate interest in pushing back against the attempted dismemberment of the Habsburg state. And then things got nasty in no small part thanks to French politicians having persuaded themselves that a Balkan crisis would be the best possible shot at teaming up with Russia to wage a war against Germany and take back Alsace and Lorraine. Nobody is blameless in the whole affair, but it's much much more complicated than "Germans be starting wars." The Entente powers were essentially sticking up for a state sponsor of terrorism.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

So World War 1 was the fault of Serbia, The Russian Empire and France?

[Red October1984]

I'm no expert on WW1 at all...but from what I understand, Europe was just itching for war. They were building up and somebody wanted it.

It just took a spark. :hmmm:

Germany wasn't even the one who started the war...I've never blamed them for it. But they were punished more than any other Central Power seems like.

It was a Serb who started it I do believe. When Archduke Francis Ferdinand was assassinated.... :hmmm:


Germans are always getting blamed for the World Wars seems like...while they did have those dark years of WW2....they weren't all bad. Not every single German was up in arms against the Jews and against France in early WW2....and I'm sure it was the same kind of deal with WW1. There were probably German leaders who didn't want to fight.... I'm not defending the holocaust or anything...but I do think the German point of view on the wars is interesting. And it's interesting to learn about the people from those times in Germany


But I'm no expert and I'm beginning to confuse myself. :hmmm:

[BrucePartington]

Not every single German was up in arms against the Jews and against France in early WW2....(...) There were probably German leaders who didn't want to fight....

White Rose?
Those kids were hung, with wire for rope.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I blame FF's driver for taking a wrong turn.

[Cybermat47]

I blame FF's driver for taking a wrong turn.

:yep:

[Red October1984]

White Rose?
Those kids were hung, with wire for rope.

I did not know that. I'll do some research tomorrow.

EDIT: Ah...it is tomorrow. My curiosity got me. I've got the Wikipedia article loaded up.

Wiki says this: "The White Rose (German: die Weiße Rose) was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany, consisting of students from the University of Munich and their philosophy professor. The group became known for an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943, that called for active opposition to dictator Adolf Hitler's regime. The six most recognized members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo and beheaded in 1943."

I blame FF's driver for taking a wrong turn.

The real culprit... :dead:

[Tribesman]

I blame the French, for insisting the blame was put on the Germans

[Betonov]

I blame Austria, poking at the Serbs is never a good idea

[kranz]

I was halfway through booking a ticket to Texas, with my chainsaw in the bag while I noticed WWI instead of WWII.

I hereby declare I will not blame Germany for WWI.

(because there was no such country in 1914 - and that's the only reason)

@WhiteRose kids

wasn't she beheaded on a guillotine?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Because I always thought that Germany was not really to blame for WWI. If anything, it is Russia's mobilization that forced Germany to react lest they be invaded.

Even for WWII, I think a very large part of the blame is the Allies' collective desire (usually the French is blamed but IIRC some people also blame Wilson's desire for "justice") to feel good about the whole thing. I actually think the reparations and land transfers were less important than the whole military crap (the true injustice in my mind) and the insistence on pinning the whole blame on Germany (a worthless, feel good endeavor).

As long as Germany is limited to 100,000 men ... etc (The Treaty of Versailles effectively is the world's first arms control treaty, and not only is it unilateral but probably the most detailed, with even headquarters composition being controlled), there is nothing to prevent the Allies from forever increasing their demands - in effect, it allows for infinite punishment. And we can certainly agree that whatever Germany's blame portion is, it cannot possibly substantiate a punishment value of infinity.

[Tribesman]

wasn't she beheaded on a guillotine?
Blame the French?

[Skybird]

Most wars have longer histories that led to somebody finally pulling the first trigger, which are mostly ignored. That is especially true for WWI and WWII. Who fired the first shots, is clear. How things got there, is a much more complex story.

[Wolferz]

All Wars are started with a LIE.:hmmm:

[Schroeder]

@WhiteRose kids

wasn't she beheaded on a guillotine?
Yep. Though it were more than just Sophie Scholl.

[Catfish]

Thanks Neal for posting this, did not hear about it. I found it quite interesting, because i have been reading a lot in the last decade about the foregoings of, and WW1. Another interest if related was the propaganda war, and its impact on education and the teaching of history.
Most recent books i read were Barbara Tuchman's older excellent 'The guns of august' and - as a contrast - the also excellent but more recent 'The pity of war' by Niall Ferguson.

It is a complex theme though, and clouded by the aforementioned propaganda and apparent revisionism it is hard to get a good and neutral overview. I first stumbled about the 'cartoons' from a Mr. Raemaker, illustrating german atrocities in british and french newspapers he himself had witnessed - to find out he had not even been in Belgium at the time, nor did most of it happen.
Of course bad things DID happen though, from shelling textile factories and using gas (b.t.w. both done by german general Deimel, who became a war-opposing pita to his former officer friends, after the war), to executing civilians to state an example against franc-tireurs or partisans, but not to an extent as described in the propaganda.
What the belgian king had done in the Congo before was also 'not nice', but you just cannot measure or judge actions with the mindset and education of today.

Another good book on the political german subject of the naval war, is 'Die U-Boote des Kaisers' by Joachim Schroeder from 2002, maybe especially interesting for Subsim members, but unfortunately only in german.


The reasons for this war were multi-layered, and it seems it began out of an 'Angst' of each other, to be attacked later in a situation bader than at the moment (Germany), of losing influence or an empire (England), or just having concrete plan of accumulating more territory, like Italy (e.g. Venice like other chunks of now-Italy belonged to Austro-Hungary back then).

Germany did have its own plans of course, but then Edward 8th had visited each and every country and capital to make friends and sign treaties, but never Germany .. and a flaring monarch with the paranoia of an encircled Germany did not make things better ..

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Oberon]

It's always Serbias fault. :yep:

[Catfish]

^ :rotfl2:
oh, of course !

WW1, WW2, the balkan war, muslims, terrorists, NSA wiretapping, all because of Serbia !
Couldn't you have posted that a bit earlier, i would not have had to write all those words further north :D

[Sailor Steve]

I blame Germany. I also blame Austria, Russia, Britain, France, and all the other European nations who were looking for a chance to gain back what they thought they had lost in the wars of the 19th century. Making excuses about protecting themselves from others is nice, but they all wanted that war, and in that respect they got what they deserved.

I blame Britain and France for their shameful treatment of Germany at the end of the war, and I blame the United States for going along with it (though Wilson did half-heartedly try to talk them out of it). It was a war that everybody wanted, but none was aware of what they were actually getting, and the winners tried to blame the losers for it all, which naturally led to the the next war.

All wars could be avoided if people would just think. But people never think.

[Betonov]

I also blame the officers on all sides.
Being trained in peacetime with nothing but theory on wars fought without machine guns, they were responsible for the trench horrors that occured.

Imagine if the Germans were in Paris by christmas 1914.

[Jimbuna]

I blame Germany. I also blame Austria, Russia, Britain, France, and all the other European nations who were looking for a chance to gain back what they thought they had lost in the wars of the 19th century. Making excuses about protecting themselves from others is nice, but they all wanted that war, and in that respect they got what they deserved.

I blame Britain and France for their shameful treatment of Germany at the end of the war, and I blame the United States for going along with it (though Wilson did half-heartedly try to talk them out of it). It was a war that everybody wanted, but none was aware of what they were actually getting, and the winners tried to blame the losers for it all, which naturally led to the the next war.

All wars could be avoided if people would just think. But people never think.

Agreed and especially this part:


and the winners tried to blame the losers for it all, which naturally led to the next war.

[Betonov]

100th anniversary next year and Sarajevo is only a 6h drive from here :hmmm:

[Catfish]

There's an old german joke:

Suddenly a fairy arrives, and tells
"You have three wishes, answer quickly and they will be fulfiilled!"

So the man answers
"I want to be rich, then i want to be a noble, and have a beautiful wife!"

A flash, and the man finds himself in bed with the most wonderful woman he has ever seen, in a room full of expensive furniture, and pictures of his famous predecessors on the wall, of course all nobles like him.

And then the beautiful woman at his side says:
"Schleich di Franz-Ferdinand, sonst kommst' zu spät nach Sarajevo!"
:-?

[Schroeder]

There's an old german joke:

Suddenly a fairy arrives, and tells
"You have three wishes, answer quickly and they will be fulfiilled!"

So the man answers
"I want to be rich, then i want to be a noble, and have a beautiful wife!"

A flash, and the man finds himself in bed with the most wonderful woman he has ever seen, in a room full of expensive furniture, and pictures of his famous predecessors on the wall, of course all nobles like him.

And then the beautiful woman at his side says:
"Schleich di Franz-Ferdinand, sonst kommst' zu spät nach Sarajevo!"
:-?
Doesn't make much sense to post the last sentence in German, does it?:doh:
So she says: "Now get going Franz Ferdinand, or you'll be late in Sarajevo!"

[August]

Germany may not have started WW1 but they sure had no problem trampling, literally, over countries who happened to be in their way and turning it into a World War.

The way I see it no invasion of Belgium means Britain (and eventually the US) stay on the sidelines and the Great War remains a regional conflict.

[Oberon]

Oh, we'd have been dragged in somehow, it was an inevitable outcome really, having so many fingers in so many pies around the world meant that somewhere down the line it would have dragged us in.

[Red October1984]

Doesn't make much sense to post the last sentence in German, does it?:doh:
So she says: "Now get going Franz Ferdinand, or you'll be late in Sarajevo!"

Google Translate doesn't translate that correctly. :hmmm:

Amusing joke though. I'll remember that one.

[nikimcbee]

I blame Bush. No war for Serbian oil.

[Oberon]

Google Translate doesn't translate that correctly. :hmmm:

Amusing joke though. I'll remember that one.

Don't get Schroeder going on Google Translate... :haha:

Ist das nicht richtig, Schroeder? :O::O::O:

[August]

Oh, we'd have been dragged in somehow, it was an inevitable outcome really, having so many fingers in so many pies around the world meant that somewhere down the line it would have dragged us in.

Quite possibly but when and on which side are the questions. Without the BEF France would have been knocked out of the war in 1914. That would change the strategic picture considerably i'd think.

[Oberon]

Quite possibly but when and on which side are the questions. Without the BEF France would have been knocked out of the war in 1914. That would change the strategic picture considerably i'd think.

I wouldn't dismiss the French as readily as that, the BEF was only 80k in strength in 1914, even if the German forces had taken Paris, I don't think the French would have given up, they've have just pulled back and bled the German forces steadily. The political situation in France in 1914 was more stable than in the other times that the fall of Paris has brought about the end of a French war (1870 and 1940) so I could see it evacuating and continuing the fight.

[Red October1984]

Don't get Schroeder going on Google Translate... :haha:

Ist das nicht richtig, Schroeder? :O::O::O:

*goes to Google Translate to translate the post*

Is not that right, Schroeder? :sunny:

[Catfish]

Germany may not have started WW1 but they sure had no problem trampling, literally, over countries who happened to be in their way and turning it into a World War.
The way I see it no invasion of Belgium means Britain (and eventually the US) stay on the sidelines and the Great War remains a regional conflict.

This is exactly what Niall Ferguson has as a theme, in his book. To make it short England would have landed at Belgium's coast the moment it became aware that Germany was to attack France, using Belgium as a walkthrough or not. France b.t.w. had a similar plan, Germany just happened to be faster. And again do not forget that good belgian king Albert slaughtered appx. 40 million blacks in the Congo - of course that did not count as a crime, in any of the belligerent nations of the time.

[...] Without the BEF France would have been knocked out of the war in 1914. That would change the strategic picture considerably i'd think

Yep, Paris would have probably been invaded in 1914 and surrendered, the Alsace region would then probably still belong to Germany today, and it would have withdrawn its troops while paying for the rubble in Belgium. No WW2, no Soviet Union.
(Ferguson, not me)
Of course this is much too easy, because England and France would then have used Belgium for their march-up, and Germany would have been finished in 1915 :-?

[Schroeder]

Google Translate doesn't translate that correctly. :hmmm:

It can't. It's the Austrian dialect which the translation programs don't get right (they never get regional dialects right). Even if they do they just translate word by word without caring for the different grammar in English and German (or any other language that is).

[Red October1984]

It can't. It's the Austrian dialect which the translation programs don't get right (they never get regional dialects right). Even if they do they just translate word by word without caring for the different grammar in English and German (or any other language that is).

This is why I want to learn German.

I want to learn it so bad. :wah:

[Schroeder]

This is why I want to learn German.

I want to learn it so bad. :wah:
**Off Topic (Mods, you can move this to a new thread if you feel it necessary (not that I could stop you from doing it anyway:O:)**

Be aware that there are some big differences between our languages, for example that we have three noun markers ("der", "die" and "das") instead of only one in English and no, there is no logic when you have to use which of the three. You'll have to learn the fitting noun marker to each noun.
Examples:
The Apple - Der Apfel
The Door - Die Tür
The Car - Das Auto

And then there is this thing with "Du" and "Sie". You only have "you" in English but in German you make a difference between family and friends (you use "du" on them) and strangers /superiors etc. (here you use "Sie" instead). This also effects the grammar off the sentence making German a pretty difficult language compared to English.:know:
For example:
"Could you please explain the German language to me?" Can translate into:
"Könntest du mir bitte die deutsche Sprache erklären?" with the "du", or
"Könnten Sie mir bitte die deutsche Sprache erklären?" with the "sie".

Do you still want to learn it?:D

[Red October1984]

Do you still want to learn it?:D

Well what kind of question is that?! :D

Of course I do!!! :yeah: :yeah:

My Science Teacher minored in German in college and she speaks it fluently. I begged her to teach me. I even offered to pay her during the summer to teach me...but no... :shifty:

I'd love to learn to speak it.

[Schroeder]

That's an unexpected answer...:o
Well, you might be able to go to college and learn it there. Over here we also sometimes have language classes on TV. Not as good for leaning a language with a real teacher but better than nothing. Maybe you have that too in the US.

[Catfish]

Schroeder translated this perfectly ..

"Schleich di Franz-Ferdinand, sonst kommst' zu spät nach Sarajevo!"
into
"Now get going Franz Ferdinand, or you'll be late in Sarajevo!"

Which is difficult being an austrian way of speaking -

Schleich di would be an abbreviation of "Schleich dich" - the verb 'schleichen' originally means creeping or sneaking, however 'Schleich di' in austrian is an almost condescending austrian slang for p... off.
You'd e.g. say that to a burglar caught red-handed.

"Kommst' " then is an abbreviation for "kommst du". The apostrophe indicates there's a letter or word missing, in this case "du".
As said before, bad example .. but i thought everybody would understand the meaning anyway ? :oops:

[Red October1984]

That's an unexpected answer...:o
Well, you might be able to go to college and learn it there. Over here we also sometimes have language classes on TV. Not as good for leaning a language with a real teacher but better than nothing. Maybe you have that too in the US.

There's Rosetta Stone... I was going to split the cost of the German one with my friend who also wants to learn German...

If it is as good as they make it sound, I plan on going to a local college and going through their aviation program and USAF ROTC. :arrgh!: Maybe I'll pick up some German.

[Tribesman]

Without the BEF France would have been knocked out of the war in 1914. That would change the strategic picture considerably i'd think.
Highly unlikely.
None of the german attempted reworkings of their master plan for invasion added up.
It was simply not possible to move the required amount of troops and materials through the territory within the timeframe that had to be met.

[August]

Of course this is much too easy, because England and France would then have used Belgium for their march-up, and Germany would have been finished in 1915 :-?

Maybe you're right but if so then probably not to the degree that Germany was finished by 1918. I'd bet the peace terms wouldn't have been as draconian either.

[Tchocky]

I'd highly recommend reading Yglesias' columns in Slate, usually very informative and interesting.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Even without the last line of the joke being translated I, at least, got the general gist of it with just Franz Ferdinand and Sarajevo. :sunny:

[STEED]

I don't give a hoot who started it, whats done is done and is now history. At this rate Hitler may one day get the blame because he sold a dodgy painting that upset people in high places kicking off the shooting match.

[Jimbuna]

I don't give a hoot who started it, whats done is done and is now history. At this rate Hitler may one day get the blame because he sold a dodgy painting that upset people in high places kicking off the shooting match.

Was that the picture of the Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies? :03:

[STEED]

Was that the picture of the Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies? :03:

:har:

[Jimbuna]

:har:

I knew it wouldn't go over ones head :):03:

[STEED]

I knew it wouldn't go over ones head :):03:

http://img.rp.vhd.me/4537912_l3.jpg

Helga, arrest that smart ass..I think hes a English spy by the look of his big boobies.