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View Full Version : Civil rights and security: A swinging pendulum


Platapus
07-06-13, 04:40 PM
I feel we are experiencing a swinging pendulum. One that has been swinging since 1947.

In 1947, the United States formalized its first civilian peacetime intelligence effort. We had the CIA and about a decade later DIA. They were tasked with preventing another "pearl harbor".

At that time, the perceived threat was them commies. During the 1950's we had some intelligence failures, some of which still have not been publicly released, the questions being asked by congress were "why did you miss xxx, who is to blame, and what are you going to do so you don't miss xxx again?"

And, in response to this, certain programs were expanded to areas not originally intended. Like most governmental mistakes, it was a gradual expanding. Like most government programs there was a reluctance to get rid of them. The MIC is a hungry mistress. In the early 1970's, it finally got so bad that a formal investigation was formed -- The Church commission. It accomplished two primary goals.

1. It identified where the IC had overstepped its authority
2. It mandated changes in the IC to prevent it from happening again.

This was referred to as neutering in polite company. Inside the IC, other terms, less polite were used. The IC shut down a lot of good programs, a lot of bad programs and probably some not so bad and not so good programs. This combined with EO12333 severely limited what could be collected on US citizens domestically and overseas, who collected it, how the information would be used, and who would be allowed and not allowed to get the data.

The mistakes of the 1950-1960's would not be allowed to happen again.

In the 1980's and 1990's there were some IC failures. People died. Once again, Congress was asking the same questions: "why did you miss xxx, who is to blame, and what are you going to do so you don't miss xxx again?".

Debates and discussions ensued. Something had to be done, but everyone was afraid of what happened in the 1950-1960's. The risks did not balance with the benefits......Until 2001 when some bad things happened. People died. Again, everyone was asking the IC the same questions: "why did you miss xxx, who is to blame, and what are you going to do so you don't miss xxx again?"

Decisions were made. Many of them were reactionary, many of them were political, many of them were based on a philosophy of 'don't just stand there do "something!"'. The concerns of possible 1950-1960 type risks were overshadowed by the probable risks of terrorism. The rightness and wrongness of this is, and will continue to be debatable.

So some good programs were created, some bad programs were created, existing programs were transmogrified in to good/bad/both programs. The risks were acceptable because of the perceived threat. We would not allow the 1950-1960's to repeat.

In the second decade of the 21st century, the perceived threat is different. People are no longer terrified at the risk of terrorism. The risks started to overshadow the benefits. But these government programs continued... looking for additional funding which meant looking for additional threats. There is a reluctance to kill these programs. The MIC is still a hungry mistress.

Soon, I suspect we will have the 2014 version of the Church Commission. Which will accomplish two goals.

1. It will identify where the IC had overstepped its authority
2. It will mandate changes in the IC to prevent it from happening again.

These days, it will probably be called "nerfing" as in the context of MMORPGs.

And then, sometime in the future, the IC will miss some stuff. People will die, Congress will, once again ask the IC the same questions: "why did you miss xxx, who is to blame, and what are you going to do so you don't miss xxx again?"

And the pendulum will start to swing the other direction....

mookiemookie
07-06-13, 05:34 PM
I don't know if it's a pendulum so much as a creeping infringement that's been years in the making. Once government gains power, it's loathe to give it up. Once the CIA or NSA or TSA or whatever alphabet agency you like gets ahold of something, it's mission becomes finding ways to justify holding on to that jurisdiction.

I sincerely hope that Congress can reign in the excesses, but when these agencies are blatantly lying to Congress, as they have been shown to have done, then how can any sort of oversight be realistically be enacted? How can you regulate something that you are being misled about?

The government is not going to let the pendulum swing back the other way. A relevant quote that I think is applicable here: "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." – Thomas Jefferson

Platapus
07-06-13, 05:52 PM
The government is not going to let the pendulum swing back the other way.

Perhaps similar things were said prior to the Church Commission?

Wolferz
07-06-13, 07:06 PM
I wonder what Patrick Henry and Nathan Hale would have to say about all of this?

Platapus
07-06-13, 07:53 PM
I wonder what Patrick Henry and Nathan Hale would have to say about all of this?

They would probably say "hey, let me out of this coffin!!!!" :D

Sailor Steve
07-06-13, 08:10 PM
I wonder what Patrick Henry and Nathan Hale would have to say about all of this?
Be careful who you bring into this. Patrick Henry was dead set against the US Constitution. Of course he thought it gave the government too much power, but where would we be if he had gotten his way?

em2nought
07-06-13, 11:03 PM
Our founding fathers would probably take a page out of the British play book and do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington :arrgh!:

the_tyrant
07-07-13, 02:21 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/06/opinion/lincolns-surveillance-state.html?_r=1&

Lincoln was spying on your telegraphs before it was cool!

Wolferz
07-07-13, 05:52 AM
Patrick would probably say; " This bill of rights thing is great! Protecting it will be the real test."

Nathan would say;" I spy a mistake on my statue. They didn't get the nose right."

Oberon
07-07-13, 08:06 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/06/opinion/lincolns-surveillance-state.html?_r=1&

Lincoln was spying on your telegraphs before it was cool!

Give this man the internets!

Intel gathering on the populace has been going on for years, decades, even centuries. The only thing that has changed is the ability to search and index information that has been gathered, but even then it would take thousands of man hours for an NSA agent to physically read each email provided, therefore it's just stored and if someone wants to index search, then blam it's done.

Does that make it right? Of course it doesn't, but no matter how much righteous indignation is directed at it, nothing will change, if anything the web will increase, and privacy will decrease. Furthermore, if a major terrorist incident occurred and thousands of lives were lost, and it emerged that the NSA could have intercepted the incident in its planning stages through the tools at its disposal, do you not think that the same people crying out now in outrage would be equally vocal in their condemnation that this plot was not stopped before thousands of people died?
Sure, it won't stop small plots, the spontaneous events, but it stands a chance of breaking cells and groups that form in home soil, as well as those on foreign soil who plot attacks against the home country.

People cannot complain about security and civil rights in the same breath as complaining about the ineffectualness of the government in stopping terrorism. After 9/11, the biggest question was 'why did we not see this coming', now the biggest question is 'why are we looking?'.

No matter what happens now, it's going to carry on, the public has no say in the matter, it never has and it never will. Everything else is just theatre.

Skybird
07-07-13, 08:22 AM
I do not see it that much as a back-forth-back-forth swinging pendulum, but a linear movement at always one direction only. It's just that that single-direction movement goes at varying speeds. Nevertheless it always moves at the same direction.

I also would not agree that it is deconstruction on behalf of security concerns, always. It is deconstruction of freedom, but claiming security only when the opportune argument offers itself at certain points of time, after according historic events like 9/11 for example, or an external threat.

So instead a swinging pendulum that swings between freedom and security, you have a single-direction movement at variable pace. The speed differences get mistaken for a bi-directional pendulum-like movement. Security arguments obviosuly allow to argue to press the gas pedal a bit.

The exposition of the citizen to the state'S claim over him is the purpose of the excercise, and the intention to make him as defenceless in face of the state as possible, so that the state's power over him increases. This includes of course necessarily financial vulnerability, and declining possibilities to defend private property against the claim of the state. Any excuse hiding this real intention, is welcomed by the state. State needs weak citizens so that he can rob their property and redistrubute it, and to confiscate it to hide the snowball system of today's paper"money" system. Either redistribution at the cost of a declining group of victims and calling that "social justice", or expropriation of all and everybody, calling that "stabilising financial markets" - that's what it is about.

Both do lead to first socialist, finally communist conditions of state and society.