Obama tramples on rights of another country

[Webster]

Obama once again disgraced and embarrassed this country as he tramples on the sovereign rights of another country.

they forced Bolivia's President Evo Morales plane to land so it can be searched for snowden

http://news.yahoo.com/south-american-leaders-demand-apology-plane-row-055723020.html

[Catfish]

Principally, yes.

But:
First, it is not only Bolivia being trampled on, but the whole world.
Second, it is not Obama 'trampling', but the secret services of the USA.

[mapuc]

A jounalist who is working for TV2NEWS in USA said the other day "that
USA is in a diplomatic hurrican for the moment. They( the diplomats) have a huge task infront of them."

Markus

[Ducimus]

It occurs to me, the harder they beat the bush's for snowden, the more accurate and truthful what he said must be, because Obama want's him BAAAAADDDLLLLY.

[nikimcbee]

http://www.wildsoundmovies.com/images/darth_vader_and_princess_leia.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=P1htZ5kdJfDv0M&tbnid=mz07X_6ai4HUeM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wildsoundmovies.com%2Fdarth_v ader_and_princess_leia.html&ei=Qj_XUaOWI8vcqQHirIDwCQ&bvm=bv.48705608,d.aWc&psig=AFQjCNED2jkRDUxIFzgEfg4RnMLBVxnG0g&ust=1373147327275278)

ppsst, Barak, that's not Snowden.

[TarJak]

:88)Of course we need another thread on this subject. http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=205328

[Oberon]

:88)Of course we need another thread on this subject. http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=205328

Hell, let's make another thirty threads on the subject! :yeah:

[TarJak]

That's what we usually do innit?:arrgh!:

[Oberon]

That's what we usually do innit?:arrgh!:

http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/Pinky-And-The-Brain-REQUESTED-psd9939.png

"What do you want to do in GT tonight, Brain?"

"Same thing we do every night Pinky, complain about the US government!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SzSKPZgAJw&feature=player_detailpage#t=9s

[Webster]

strange? the links to those other threads you speak of are talking about snowden and have nothing to do with this thread about the plane of a foreign diplomat being seized for inspection.

maybe your links are wrong

[TarJak]

strange? the links to those other threads you speak of are talking about snowden and have nothing to do with this thread about the plane of a foreign diplomat being seized for inspection.

maybe your links are wrong

Maybe your're not reading the right part of the thread. Check the last 3 pages starting here: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2078839&postcount=219

And its thread singular. :D

[mookiemookie]

:88)Of course we need another thread on this subject. http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=205328

Hell, let's make another thirty threads on the subject! :yeah:

Yes but those threads don't allow for the Obama vitriol to have a front page of GT, headline-type presence. Come on, use your heads!

[TarJak]

Yes but those threads don't allow for the Obama vitriol to have a front page of GT, headline-type presence. Come on, use your heads!

Oh my mistake! Carry on with the vitriol.:sunny:

[Webster]

Maybe your're not reading the right part of the thread.

yep you are right, I didn't read every thread to look for some comment hijacking it, maybe everyone should spend 3 or 4 months doing that before posting.

when I started this discussion topic I wasn't aware another thread had been completely hijacked to talk about this subject instead of what it was intended to discuss

[Sailor Steve]

maybe everyone should spend 3 or 4 months doing that before posting.
I do.




And I still get it wrong. :dead:

[Webster]

I do.




And I still get it wrong. :dead:


:har:

[TarJak]

yep you are right, I didn't read every thread to look for some comment hijacking it, maybe everyone should spend 3 or 4 months doing that before posting, or NOT.

just because you are sick of talking about snowden means nothing as far as this discussion topic that has only to do with an outright offensive and internationally criminal act by the US government so please post about the topic of the correct thread that you are in and not about unrelated even though similar topics.

you can talk about your opinions of snowden in the other thread where it is intended for

Who said I was sick of talking about Snowden? :D I'm sick of seeing multiple threads about the same subject. Don't pretend its not related or even the same subject. It is completely related.

Just like everyone else here at subsim I can derail any thread about anything if I want. Dats de internetz matey.:arrgh!:

[Wolferz]

Hijackers- R Us.

Put dat inya pipe and smoke it, NSA!:up:
I need a smilie that uses a finger instead of a thumb.:-?

[nimitz98]

Obama once again disgraced and embarrassed this country as he tramples on the sovereign rights of another country.
Ehem, I believe that the article says "A minster of one of those European governments told me personally that it was the CIA who gave the order to the aeronautical authorities, the one who gave the alert that Snowden was on the plane."

The president does not have direct control over the CIA, nor over any other government agency. Good job making yourself look like a moron. :up: At least to anyone with a brain, that is. Not that the president had NOTHING to do with it, but really?

I like how during the Bush years, if the US did anything wrong it was never Bush's fault. Now that we have an African American in office, it's always the president's fault. ZOMG THE IRS IS BEING MEAN TO CONSERVATIVE GROUPS WHO THINK THEY ARE THE CHURCH EVERYONE IT'S OBAMA'S FAULT OBAMAOBAMAOBAMAOBAMAOBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 :shifty:

The IRS is a government agency. Read about them, they're interesting. Yes, this post is provocative. Go ahead and delete it, if you please. But you better think long and hard, and do some research before you do.

Nimitz

[Wolferz]

YES WE SCAN!

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb295/Wolferz_2007/asset-management-tool-1.jpg

FORWARD

[AVGWarhawk]

It occurs to me, the harder they beat the bush's for snowden, the more accurate and truthful what he said must be, because Obama want's him BAAAAADDDLLLLY.

This guy had his hands on information that could potentially launch us into a conflict with bloodshed. Yes, he thinks he is some kind of patriot. He is a loose cannon.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Basically, the world let this happen to themselves. What happened to the old concept of maintaining a balance of power between the larger states of the world, including changing alliances if necessary.

Instead, after WWII, people actually thought the Russians were the threat and sided with the Yanks even though the Yanks had the atom bomb first and had the most mobile armed force in the world, to include 15 Naval Aviation Divisions (I use the pre-2008 Russian vernacular here to remind people of the interchageability between air and ground power).

Even if we think the Russians needed to be taken down a notch, AFTER 1990 what should have happened is that everyone in Europe brings Russia in as their ally, and slowly distancing themselves from Washington, not because they really like Russia or its politics but because balance of power considerations demand it.

But no we don't. Instead we trust the US. And today we pay the piper in being nearly totally unable to resist the US when they call.

Sigh...

[Sailor Steve]

I like how during the Bush years, if the US did anything wrong it was never Bush's fault. Now that we have an African American in office, it's always the president's fault.
We must have lived in two different universes. Of course you're only lambasting the Conservatives for this, showing just as much bias as you're condemning. From your apparent side during the Bush years everything was Bush's fault. Yes, when a Liberal (you don't need to bring race into it) president is in office the Cons blame everything on him. Likewise the Libs blame anything and everything on the other side. Both sides are exactly the same in this, but you seem to only see one side.

[Spiced_Rum]

We must have lived in two different universes. Of course you're only lambasting the Conservatives for this, showing just as much bias as you're condemning. From your apparent side during the Bush years everything was Bush's fault. Yes, when a Liberal (you don't need to bring race into it) president is in office the Cons blame everything on him. Likewise the Libs blame anything and everything on the other side. Both sides are exactly the same in this, but you seem to only see one side.

Well said. Regardless of party (or any other defining category), he is the POTUS and the Buck does stop with him.

[Sailor Steve]

Instead, after WWII, people actually thought the Russians were the threat and sided with the Yanks even though the Yanks had the atom bomb first and had the most mobile armed force in the world, to include 15 Naval Aviation Divisions (I use the pre-2008 Russian vernacular here to remind people of the interchageability between air and ground power).
You're leaving out a lot. Trust and distrust had little to do with how powerful a nation was. The Soviets were seen as dictators and aggressors who took over every Eastern European country they could get their hands on as soon as the war was over. They didn't "liberate" those countries, they subjugated them. The US was seen as the country which had helped out during the war then went home, promising to help keep Europe free. I'm not arguing whether these perceptions were right or wrong, just that they were seen that way. Everybody at the time was afraid of the Soviet Union, not because of their power but because of their percieved intentions.

And today we pay the piper in being nearly totally unable to resist the US when they call.
On the plus side there are a great many here in the US who also see that as wrong and are trying to do something about it. That's the other difference you left out.

[Wolferz]

Duplicity and collusion are the hallmarks of our governments these days. All sides are culpable.

It's time to stop leaning left or right and just lean forward, together. Not bend over and grab ankles.

[Sailor Steve]

:sign_yeah:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

You're leaving out a lot. Trust and distrust had little to do with how powerful a nation was. The Soviets were seen as dictators and aggressors who took over every Eastern European country they could get their hands on as soon as the war was over. They didn't "liberate" those countries, they subjugated them. The US was seen as the country which had helped out during the war then went home, promising to help keep Europe free. I'm not arguing whether these perceptions were right or wrong, just that they were seen that way. Everybody at the time was afraid of the Soviet Union, not because of their power but because of their percieved intentions.

Yes, trust and distrust is not directly correlated to the power of a country. The West's mistake however, was to let "trust" substitute for verification and maintaining the ability to do something should the trust be broken.

In some cases, that would mean allying with someone you trust less. I don't intend to play the Soviet/Russians as heroes, but standard balance of power calculations will actually suggest that Europe ally with them. Though it'll cost more to independently defend, by making the effort they retain freedom of action.

Instead, they chose to trust the US and let their freedom of action be at the mercy of the US. I leave it to everyone to decide whether overall that's a good choice, but it does definitely mean you pay the piper on days like this.

On the plus side there are a great many here in the US who also see that as wrong and are trying to do something about it. That's the other difference you left out.

Call me a cynic, Steve, but put a post on this board when Congress actually puts its foot down and passes legislation to restrict NSA's excesses (complete with consequences for noncompliance) instead of just listening as the NSA people come up and insist that it is all legal (I'm sure it is since laws can also be said to be nothing but words on paper) and necessary (how about at least letting the US citizenry decide that instead of going behind their backs).

Otherwise, protests and petitions are little but a valve to let people pretend they have power. Force times Distance Moved = Work. I want to see Work, not Force.

[Wolferz]

Otherwise, protests and petitions are little but a valve to let people pretend they have power. Force times Distance Moved = Work. I want to see Work, not Force.


Ergs or dynes?:D

Freedom is just an illusion like everything in the three dimensional realm.
Ignore the carrot and then we'll see how far the donkey pulls the cart before the whip is applied.:-?

[Platapus]

Duplicity and collusion are the hallmarks of our governments these days. All sides are culpable.

It's time to stop leaning left or right and just lean forward, together. Not bend over and grab ankles.

+1

In my opinion, when ever anyone uses the terms "the left" or "the right" in trying to make a political argument, it is safe to dismiss what follows.

There is no "the left" or "the right". They are not homogenous groups, or even groups. There is no universally acceptable definition other than the emotional one of "if you disagree with my opinion, you are clearly [insert left/right] (as appropriate)"

The only road to a solution is to stop considering a problem to be a "left" or "right" problem and recognize it as an "American problem". And as such needs to be solved by all Americans working together against the problem, not working against each other. :yep:

So much time and effort is wasted trying to "prove" that the "problem" is the "fault" of the "other side". :/\\!!

We have to ask ourselves what our goal is:

1 Solve the problem?
2 Prove that the fault is with the "other" side?

With politicians, it is easy. Number 2 gets them elected, while number 1 may not.

But citizens are not politicians. We need to focus on number one, and not step in number two. :yep:

[donna52522]

Ehem, I believe that the article says "A minster of one of those European governments told me personally that it was the CIA who gave the order to the aeronautical authorities, the one who gave the alert that Snowden was on the plane."

The president does not have direct control over the CIA, nor over any other government agency. Good job making yourself look like a moron. :up: At least to anyone with a brain, that is. Not that the president had NOTHING to do with it, but really?

I like how during the Bush years, if the US did anything wrong it was never Bush's fault. Now that we have an African American in office, it's always the president's fault. ZOMG THE IRS IS BEING MEAN TO CONSERVATIVE GROUPS WHO THINK THEY ARE THE CHURCH EVERYONE IT'S OBAMA'S FAULT OBAMAOBAMAOBAMAOBAMAOBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 :shifty:



The IRS is a government agency. Read about them, they're interesting. Yes, this post is provocative. Go ahead and delete it, if you please. But you better think long and hard, and do some research before you do.

Nimitz

I don't think the CIA or any other agency would force down another counties presidential aircraft without Obama having the last say about it.

He is the Commander-In-Chief, along with the perks comes the burdens.

[nimitz98]

We must have lived in two different universes. Of course you're only lambasting the Conservatives for this, showing just as much bias as you're condemning. From your apparent side during the Bush years everything was Bush's fault. Yes, when a Liberal (you don't need to bring race into it) president is in office the Cons blame everything on him. Likewise the Libs blame anything and everything on the other side. Both sides are exactly the same in this, but you seem to only see one side.


I never said that everything was Bush's fault. But you know, that long war that was completely unnecessary? The one in Iraq? That was Bush's fault.

Anyway, both political parties are screwed up. They are both biased, to a certain degree, and both of them need to wake up.

My point was that this snafu with the president of Bolivia was not the US president's doing. It was that out-of-control agency called the CIA.

[nimitz98]

I don't think the CIA or any other agency would force down another counties presidential aircraft without Obama having the last say about it.

He is the Commander-In-Chief, along with the perks comes the burdens.

The president has nothing to do with what the CIA does. The CIA is not the military, it is an agency. The president selects the director of the CIA, then the director does whatever he feels like doing. Again, the CIA is out of control, and it always has been.

[donna52522]

The president has nothing to do with what the CIA does. The CIA is not the military, it is an agency. The president selects the director of the CIA, then the director does whatever he feels like doing. Again, the CIA is out of control, and it always has been.


Well I believe you are wrong...and am just going to move on.

[Platapus]

The CIA is part of the Executive Branch and as such is under the ultimate control of the Office of the President.

However, that does not mean that the president is involved in all decisions of the CIA, or that the president is even aware of the decisions of the CIA. It does mean that ultimately, the President is accountable for what the CIA does as he is for any agency of the Executive Branch.

[Sailor Steve]

Good job making yourself look like a moron. :up: At least to anyone with a brain, that is.
I've only just had this brought to my attention. It doesn't matter what your own opinion of someone is, or how strongly you feel about it. We don't say things like that to other members. Subsim is better than that, and we like our members to be as well.

[Webster]

Well I believe you are wrong...and am just going to move on.

gotta agree, when some people cant or just refuse to see the truth from behind their partisan view then all we can do is move on since reason and facts are irrelevant to them.

[mookiemookie]

gotta agree, when some people cant or just refuse to see the truth from behind their partisan view then all we can do is move on since reason and facts are irrelevant to them.

http://i.imgur.com/axXCc0p.jpg

[em2nought]

At least on the plus side there are a few less countries that POTUS is likely to take $100,000,000 vacations in. :up:

[nimitz98]

http://i.imgur.com/axXCc0p.jpg:up:

And I am sorry for being a jerk to the OP, but you can't blame this thing solely on the president. I'm just sick of the Cons taking every opportunity they can to shame Obama, even if it means flat-out lying. Ex. The IRS snafu of late.

[Webster]

And I am sorry for being a jerk to the OP, ...

thank you for that

but you can't blame this thing solely on the president. I'm just sick of the Cons taking every opportunity they can to shame Obama, even if it means flat-out lying. Ex. The IRS snafu of late.

you mean the way liberals did and still do exactly the same thing and blame bush for everything including things done after he left office? isn't that a double standard to cry now only when it happens to your side and its now obamas fault?

you cannot seriously with a straight face intend to make your position that Obama is not in charge and giving the orders when an ACT OF WAR is engaged in redirecting the presidential plane of another country? maybe they don't have a nuke but they are still a sovereign country.

is your argument that the entire government is running wild doing whatever it wants and Obama has no clue whats going on? by your argument you must be trying to say that.

[Tchocky]

Refusing access to airspace is nowhere remotely near an ACT OF WAR.

The hyperbole is rising....

[nimitz98]

thank you for that



you mean the way liberals did and still do exactly the same thing and blame bush for everything including things done after he left office? isn't that a double standard to cry now only when it happens to your side and its now obamas fault?

you cannot seriously with a straight face intend to make your position that Obama is not in charge and giving the orders when an ACT OF WAR is engaged in redirecting the presidential plane of another country? maybe they don't have a nuke but they are still a sovereign country.

is your argument that the entire government is running wild doing whatever it wants and Obama has no clue whats going on? by your argument you must be trying to say that. :timeout: I never said that liberals aren't doing the same thing, but you can't deny that Bush WAS responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which claimed hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides and left this country in the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.

Now name one thing that Obama has done that even remotely rivals the severity of what Bush did.

As to the government "running wild:" not the entire government, but the CIA. The CIA has always been out of control, no matter who is in office.

[Webster]

Now name one thing that Obama has done that even remotely rivals the severity of what Bush did.



you just validated my point, if we see things differently then how can we be of the same mind as to what we saw

[Ducimus]

This guy had his hands on information that could potentially launch us into a conflict with bloodshed. Yes, he thinks he is some kind of patriot. He is a loose cannon.

You think Snowden can start a war? I highly doubt that. He did add another log onto the overbearing government fire though. Personally I think snowden is no more a loose cannon then Obama, Fienstien, et al.

[Wolferz]

If our presumptuous government can do something this inane, we must ask ourselves...
What's next?
Goon Squads dressed in jack boots and tactical gear sent to oppress any and all dissent?
We may be closer to that scenario than you think, if it isn't happening already.:hmmm:

Snowden just fired a warning shot across their bow.:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

You think Snowden can start a war? I highly doubt that. He did add another log onto the overbearing government fire though. Personally I think snowden is no more a loose cannon then Obama, Fienstien, et al.

Yes, but how can you then believe that Obama wants him baaaaaad? He must have more information other than the secret ingredients to the KY Fried Chicken coating mix. :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

Yes, but how can you then believe that Obama wants him baaaaaad? He must have more information other than the secret ingredients to the KY Fried Chicken coating mix. :hmmm:

I think BO want's his head on a platter for two reasons. One, he exposed abuse of power by the government, and they really didn't the people to know about it. Two, he added yet another controversy the BO's administration as of late. But war? I have a hard time believing snowden would start a war. Unless the war your referring to is a new American civil war or Revolution, but even that is a stretch. For one, the ballot box will come due next year, and for two the majority of people in our country would probably gladly hand over their freedom so long as they could keep watching the umpteen reality program on TV, have the latest Ipad/Iphone from Apple, and the illusion of safety was maintained.

[AVGWarhawk]

Conflict does not necessarily mean war. Conflict of governments from information or misinformation. Could escalate to war. Stretch certainly. We simply don't know. Those higher up on the food chain do.

[Wolferz]

It all makes me wonder...
Who the hell is steering this boat!? It's for damn sure it isn't the helmsman the people elected.:down: I'd never trust a penis with one eye and ears.

It's time to elect a vagina I think.

[nimitz98]

I think BO want's his head on a platter for two reasons. One, he exposed abuse of power by the government, and they really didn't the people to know about it.
I like how everyone here thinks that mass-communications surveillance is something only the US was doing. In fact, the UK, France, and Australia were also involved. If you're going to bash Obama, then at least do the same to the leaders of those countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Mass_surveillance_scandal

EDIT: I am in no way defending what these countries are doing. I believe it is an invasion of everyone's privacy and complete overkill for a method of countering terrorism.

[Ducimus]

In the United States, the buck stops at the Oval office. I could give a rats ass where the buck stops in other countries. I am a United States Citizen, I am not a citizen of the UK, France, Australia, etc etc.


In other news, I just discovered that as of 2009 Department of Homeland Security Domestic Extremist lexicon, being Constitutionalist (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constitutionalist) has been considered as being an extremist. What happened to our country when believing in the constitution classified one as an extremist by the government?

[Tribesman]

In other news, I just discovered that as of 2009 Department of Homeland Security Domestic Extremist lexicon, being Constitutionalist (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constitutionalist) has been considered as being an extremist. What happened to our country when believing in the constitution classified one as an extremist by the government?
What happened?
Its nothing new, go back another decade and find government agencies taking exactly the same considerations.

It is very simple, you happen to have some very crazy people that call themselves constitutionalists.
Some of the domestic terrorists who describe themselves as militias would be a prime example of extremist constitutionalists.
Do you expect your government to ignore crazy nuts just because they call themselves "constitutionalists"?

[Webster]

What happened to our country when believing in the constitution classified one as an extremist by the government?


simple, liberal progressive democrats took over complete control of the government and still hold enough power to block any attempt to return the country to its traditional ideals. (God / family / country)

[Ducimus]

simple, liberal progressive democrats took over complete control of the government and still hold enough power to block any attempt to return the country to its traditional ideals. (God / family / country)

You know, seven or eight months ago, I would have dismissed what you said there, as just more left vs right rhetorical BS. Team D vs Team R., the barnyard antics of The Donkey and Dumbo, etc etc.

On many political issues, i didn't really care enough to have an opinion, OR I felt myself kind of on the fence. On some issues I agreed with The Donkey. On other issues I agreed with Dumbo, and I'd be lying if i said that sometimes, The Donkey getting up on Dumbo made me laugh because Dumbo did some things I didn't agree with or like. The more pissed they got, the funnier it was. But never did i really consider myself left, or right, Democrat or Republican.

My how times have changed. Everything that has occurred over the last seven or eight months, well, I'll put it plainly, mere mention of Progressive Liberals, gets my hackles up.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FOabfju8tWc/UBEe9GfhPFI/AAAAAAAABfU/AZKvVH25UE4/s1600/Gollum.jpg
Kinda like this

I truly believe that it will be the Liberal Progressive, that, if left to their own devices, would all but put an end the the Bill of rights and The constitution, because they naively deem it obsolete, and ignore the parts they don't like because it doesn't fit in with their utopian ideals. Their zeal for less personal responsibility and more government oversight has them sowing the seeds that the Nanny/Police state would germinate and blossom forth (has already happened), and will ultimately bring Tyranny to this country. Under the Liberal Progressive, America will no longer be the land of the free and home of the brave; instead it will be the land of the restricted, and home of the cowed.

Now, having said all that, the Republican's aren't much better, nor does my anti liberal progressive stance make me a "true believer" in the Republican party. I will never forget, nor forgive the fact that It was a Republican president that started the Patriot Act and the NDAA. However, it is with the liberal progressives under Obama where we are now seeing the consequences of the post 911 "politics of fear"; and it, and they, have to be stopped. If 1984 is their idea of Utopia, I want no part of it, nor do I want my unborn child to live in it.


As an aside, they shouldn't have gone after the Second Amendment. That woke me up and got me looking at the larger picture, and it's one hell of an ugly portrait indeed. I hope there are many more people out there like myself, so maybe they can feel the repercussions that they have so rightly earned.

[Webster]

On many political issues, i didn't really care enough to have an opinion, OR I felt myself kind of on the fence. On some issues I agreed with The Donkey. On other issues I agreed with Dumbo, and I'd be lying if i said that sometimes, The Donkey getting up on Dumbo made me laugh because Dumbo did some things I didn't agree with or like. The more pissed they got, the funnier it was. But never did i really consider myself left, or right, Democrat or Republican.



I felt much the same for many many years and it was over other issues that I suddenly cared inough to start looking deeper into what was going on.

I never take things as they are presented but I listen and read then look into the facts myself because both sides contstantly lie but the overall constant theme that keeps coming out of the research I do is that thje republicans are the "lesser of the two evils" and while they are also a bunch of crooks they aren't actively trying to destroy and circumvent the constitution.

I like the idea of smaller government and lower taxes and that is not what the democrats want so I didn't abandon them, they abandoned me

[TarJak]

I suspect that like many people across the democratic nations of the world, that you are both forgetting that it's also the non elected public servants that are espousing many of the controls that are being adopted by our governments.

Don't forget that in many countries, most of these people do not move on when a new party is elected to govern. They are the ones with the real power, because not only do they implement the "will" of the government of the day, but they influence it significantly by proving them with the advice about what will or will not be done and by when.

In case you've lived under a rock the the past 30 years, check out Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister and the Hollowmen to get a glimpse of who makes a lot of the real policy decisions.

The parties have their say, but they often aren't the ones doing the work and directing the workers on what to do.