Common mistakes in Self-Defense Shootings

[Feuer Frei!]

This guy makes some interesting points. Albeit common sense and if you are in the loop on local or state or, federal laws, pertaining to self-defense:

SOURCE (http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/specials/2013concealed_story.html?id=227425)

[Webster]

lots of great info there, especially the part of finding a good lawyer BEFORE you actually need one. how many people go around knowing what lawyer to call if needed?

[Platapus]

Anyone even considering keeping a gun for self-defense really needs to read

http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001

It is written by a man with many years experience with the legal side of self-defense cases.

It is an eye opening book. :yep:

[Ducimus]

That was a great read. I hope I am never forced to defend myself.

In the event I am not at home, but out and about somewhere, I already have a plan of action in mind.

1.) Try to verbally defuse the situation, whatever it may be.
2.) Failing that, leave. Remove myself.
3.) If they follow, run away, as fast as i can. In other words, retreat, even though I am not required to by law.
4.) If they gave chase. Try to lose them and/or hide somewhere.
5.) If they find me, by this time my back would be against the wall, and I would have done everything a rational person could have done to avoid the use of deadly force. To borrow a quote from a Serious Sam 3, "Mr Smith! Mr Wesson! So glad you could make it".

[Platapus]

That was a great read. I hope I am never forced to defend myself.

In the event I am not at home, but out and about somewhere, I already have a plan of action in mind.

1.) Try to verbally defuse the situation, whatever it may be.
2.) Failing that, leave. Remove myself.
3.) If they follow, run away, as fast as i can. In other words, retreat, even though I am not required to by law.
4.) If they gave chase. Try to lose them and/or hide somewhere.
5.) If they find me, by this time my back would be against the wall, and I would have done everything a rational person could have done to avoid the use of deadly force. To borrow a quote from a Serious Sam 3, "Mr Smith! Mr Wesson! So glad you could make it".

Exactly, Shooting should be the very very last resort regardless of how the laws are written. I am so against the castle doctrine as commonly written in legislation. Like the guy in Florida* who shot the door to door salesman, castle doctrine gives the wrong people the wrong idea about self-defense.

Sometimes I get the feeling that there are people out there who are eager to "legally" shoot someone. :nope: As a long time gun owner, I find that attitude abhorrent.


*http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/blog/2012/07/27/florida-man-shoots-kills-door-todoor-salesman/index.html

[Ducimus]

I am so against the castle doctrine as commonly written in legislation. Like the guy in Florida* who shot the door to door salesman, castle doctrine gives the wrong people the wrong idea about self-defense.

A common (mis)conception is if someone breaks into your house, you have free license to ventilate them. Operative words being breaking into. Meaning forcible (and unauthorized) entry inside your house. But there's one caveat, at least in Utah - you have to be in fear for your life.

I didn't realize this until I took my concealed carry class. Simply put, if someone breaks into your house, so long as they make no hostile actions or intent against you, or do anything that would make fear for your life, they can pretty much steal everything you own right in front of you. You basically have to sit there and watch them cart your computer, big screen TV, or whatever right out the door, and you can not legally shoot them, (edit) regardless if their facing you or not. Frankly I think that's silly. If someone breaks into your home and steals from you, i think they deserve to be shot. But you have to justify that to a jury, and that is the ONLY reason i would not plant their sorry asses because I REALLY hate thieves, especially if their in my house. Another reality, is said thieves, no matter how much i hate them, are not worth going to prison over. Property crime by itself, even inside your own home with you present, does not justify lethal force.

[Sailor Steve]

Simply put, if someone breaks into your house, so long as they make no hostile actions or intent against you, or do anything that would make fear for your life, they can pretty much steal everything you own right in front of you.
However...

The average thief doesn't know whether you are going to shoot him or not. Present him with a gun and make sure he knows you intend to use it, and you won't have to watch him cart off your stuff. You'll enjoy the experience of watching him set a new record for being out your door and up the street. If he decides to make a fight of it, then you have your self-defense defense.

[Ducimus]

However...

The average thief doesn't know whether you are going to shoot him or not. Present him with a gun and make sure he knows you intend to use it, and you won't have to watch him cart off your stuff. You'll enjoy the experience of watching him set a new record for being out your door and up the street. If he decides to make a fight of it, then you have your self-defense defense.

True enough. When the letter of the law was explained to me, I did wonder what theif would have the brass balls to
a.) Not be intimidated by a home owner with a gun,
b.) be knowledgeable enough with the law to disempower the home owner as I described, and
c.) tempt fate with someone who just woke up to discover someone in their home, as that scenario makes for panicked individuals.

By the way, did you catch on KSL the home invaders as of late? In the last two months or so, we've had two home invasions where someone opened the door to total strangers late at night who were asking for help. Last one happened within this last week i think. Four people assaulted some guy in his home and beat the crap out of him before robbing him.

[Sailor Steve]

By the way, did you catch on KSL the home invaders as of late?
No, I don't have a TV and don't read the online versions of the paper much. I probably should.

[Stealhead]

The part about intoxication is definitely true.I recall a local trial here in Florida where a man shot another man in a bar parking lot.

If memory serves the shooter and the victim who did not know each other got into a disagreement and discussed the situation outside.Later the shooter took a .22 rifle 10-22 and shot the victim 4 or fives times in the head.His claim was that the man came at him in a treating manner and that he shot him.The victim was unarmed.

I dont think that the shooter was drunk but he had been drinking at the time of the incident.Anyway he claimed self defense and the DA charged him with 2nd degree murder the shooter got convicted.Of course in this case I think that the witness statements and the fact that he shot the victim in the head after he was down and had already been shot in the head more than once made the self defense claim hard to swallow.

@Ducimus yeah myself if someone came to my door in the middle of the night and they are a stranger it must be suspect because I live in a very rural area and who the hell does not have a cell phone these days? The most they would get from me is a yelled conversation through the closed window and I'd call the cops or whatever they needed.

I recall once in high school I was riding back from the beach with some friends and it was really raining I mean walls of water.Anyway we see this van on the side of the road and this man is standing in the rain trying to flag us down.It just looked too fishy to us even if your ride is broken down why would you stand in the pouring rain?Why not wait for the rain to stop you have a roof over your head in your car....no doubt that that man was planning something or really really stupid.

Another interesting story from a buddy.His wifes car broke down in a rough area of Jasksonville,FL so he told her to stop at a 7/11 because the sheriffs patrol and use them as a base.Anyway by the time he gets to his wife there are these men offering help my friend says that they dont need any help but they do not leave still offering "help". So my friend tells his wife to get into her whith the doors closed he whispers to her asking her if she has her hand gun she says that it is in the glove box.Husband says while I work on the car if one of these guys comes at me pop his ass and the wife gets the gun discretely from the glove box.Well suddenly when my buddy gets back out of the car the men suddenly do not want to be so helpful and leave.Interesting as his wife had very discretely transferred her gun from the glove box to her purse yet they had noticed that.Only a person with ill intent would be so observant.They had been offering to take the car to their house just down the road even more disturbing when you think about it.

I find a "desperate" woman even more suspect perfect bait right there she looks helpless while her boyfriend lays in wait to ambush you.Don't get me wrong I will gladly help someone but I watch things like a hawk.It is always best to avoid a bad situation.

[Ducimus]

No, I don't have a TV and don't read the online versions of the paper much. I probably should.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=25363712&nid=148&title=4-people-assault-homeowner-during-invasion

[Armistead]

If someone breaks into my home, then all I can do is assume my family or life is at risk. Simply, I will shoot them regardless if my family is in the house. That pretty much holds up in court. We had a man last year shoot a crook in his house, but was charged due to the man had a shotgun blast in his back. He was found not guilty. You won't find a jury in my town that would convict someone for shooting a home intruder.

Reminds me of a story my grandfather told. I guess it was in the 60's. He caught a man in his garage and had him under his shotgun. The crook wanted to just leave, asked if he would shoot him. Grandpa said he told the crook, "try running and guess we'll find out," The crook decided to stay, which I assure you was a good thing.

[Ducimus]

@Ducimus yeah myself if someone came to my door in the middle of the night and they are a stranger it must be suspect because I live in a very rural area and who the hell does not have a cell phone these days? The most they would get from me is a yelled conversation through the closed window and I'd call the cops or whatever they needed.


Well, I grew up in southern California. I learned from a very early age to trust no one, always be aware of where your at, who's around you, what type and color clothes they are wearing, and watch what your wearing. So me answering the door in the middle of the night has a snowball's chance in hell of happening. I'll be shouting about 5 feet away from the door, to one side of the door or the other, and not directly behind it.

The thing is, people around where I live, tend to be trusting. I don't know about up in salt lake, but in Utah county, in the area south of the Salt Lake metro, people tend to be less suspcious and more trusting. In a total reversal from what I'm used to, ive seen people stop on the side of the road to help strangers. Growing up where you constantly had to watch your back, it's an odd sight to be sure, but I like it, and I'm far more relaxed and comfortable then I ever was in California.

Now, this area has a nickname, "Happy Valley", because people here tend to live in a bubble. Everything's fine here and nothing bad ever happens - or at least, that's the perception. I have a few in-law's that don't even bother to lock their doors during the day. I've always wondered if they lock their door at night or not.

In any event, people answering their door at odd hours of the night, when they aren't expecting anyone probably is more likely to happen in this area, and the criminal element (I wonder if it's growing or not), takes advantage of peoples trusting nature here.

[mookiemookie]

I'm sure that whoever you took your training with knows their stuff. But I was curious and I looked up Utah's law.

Emphasis mine:

76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that force or a threat of force is necessary to defend the person or a third person against another person's imminent use of unlawful force.
(b) A person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if the person reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the person or a third person as a result of another person's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. And two paragraphs down:

(4) (a) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, Offenses Against the Person, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6, Offenses Against Property.

The law makes it sound like you're justified in using force to prevent someone from stealing your stuff?

Sheeshk. This is one of those times I'm happy that Texas allows you to blast anyone that breaks into your home, and you'll get a pat on the back for doing so.

[Armistead]

I have no way of knowing the mind of a home intruder. Should I ask him if he plans to rape, murder, kidnap, abuse my children? It should be enough if someone enters your home to suspect they plan to harm you in some way.

The old saying,

"I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

[Platapus]

"I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

Just remember, you will be tried by 12 people who were not there, did not experience what you experienced, and will have all the time they need to think about how a reasonable person should have acted, with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight.

Better to run away from 1 than be tried by 12. :)

[Ducimus]

Just remember, you will be tried by 12 people who were not there, did not experience what you experienced, and will have all the time they need to think about how a reasonable person should have acted, with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight.


Pretty much. The big thing is to have done everything possible to avoid the use of lethal force, and not look or sound bloodthirsty. As was told to me, when telling the police your side of the story of any self defense situation, avoid using any deragatory nouns like scumbag, dirtbag, or the like, and generally say only the bare facts, without any colorful words, and don't talk too much.

All you really need to say, is:
- I felt my life was in imminent danger.
- I shot until the threat stopped.
- I want a lawyer.

While the cop your giving your side of the story to may agree with you that the perp you were forced to put down was indeed a scumbag - anything you say or do, he has to write into his report which will appear in court, and throwing colorful words around doesn't help you.

[Armistead]

Just remember, you will be tried by 12 people who were not there, did not experience what you experienced, and will have all the time they need to think about how a reasonable person should have acted, with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight.

Better to run away from 1 than be tried by 12. :)

I said home intruder. If I'm in my home with my family and a home intruder comes in, I don't plan on running, asking questions, give him time to see what he's gonna do. Anyone breaking in my home I consider to be a deadly threat. Obvious, I would try to determine if I could stop it without killing, but if my family is in the house, I feel confident I would shoot. Course, I have an alarm system, motion lights and several dogs in and outside, so highly unlikely.

Obvious, elsewhere I would run, do anything possible, etc. I often complain about police bothering me metal detecting, but recently hunting old lot in bad side of town, was about 50 yards from my car, when a gang of about 7 young men gathered around my car. A few hurled racial slurs at me. I had my pistol open carrying as usual, didn't concern them at all. I was afraid they would damage my car, but I stayed back, called police and got the heck out of there.

[Wolferz]

If you break into my home all quiet and sneaky like, my dog has radar dishes for ears and a bark that will freeze the blood of any intruder. If they get past that obstacle... Katie bar the door. I don't keep ammo in the house due to a stepson that's a few bricks shy of an outhouse but, I don't need ammo. Just a rifle and it's stock. Unarmed intruder? No problem. I have a wide selection of knives I can put in his cold dead fingers after I beat him to death with a butt stock. Or beat him unconscious and hand cuff him until the law keepers arrive.
I'll wish the intruder luck at his trial just as soon as he's released from the hospital.:smug:

Should I feel obligated to send a get well card?:har:
I do have a deer slug or two for my shotgun squirrelled away. Makes a big hole in a human being.

I live in a semi rural area and I don't really see someone trying to sneak into our modest abode. We've got nothing of real value for someone to risk their life trying to get it. Although we did have a local resident do something really really stupid not long ago. He was walking through a Wal-Mart with his son and they were openly discussing a large sum of money he had at home. Guess what... They were followed home and robbed.

[Ducimus]

I said home intruder. If I'm in my home with my family and a home intruder comes in, I don't plan on running, asking questions, give him time to see what he's gonna do. Anyone breaking in my home I consider to be a deadly threat. .

Well, whatever one does with the case of a home intruder, if you hear him (or them) out there trying to break in, as silly as it may sound, WAIT UNTIL HE/THEY ARE COMPLETELY INSIDE YOUR HOME, or you may end up being like this guy.
Man Attempts to Stop Felon and Charged (http://www.kdrv.com/man-attempts-to-stop-felon-with-firearm/)

The best course of action:

- Call 911.

- Inform 911 operator there is a home invasion in progress.

- Shoot perp after he/she has made forcible entry.

- Don't use a firearm you cannot absolutely live without, because your not getting it back anytime soon.