Bill Clinton got electric cars right

[Skybird]

I had to laugh when reading his laconic reasoning, it reads like something by Ayn Rand. He was right, though.

http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-clinton-apparently-has-a-very-sharp-business-mind-2013-2

That project of electric cars in Israel now is expected to fiule for bancrupcty any hour, after having burnt 850 million bucks in six years.

http://gigaom.com/2013/05/24/report-better-place-to-file-for-bankruptcy/

I tend to think that pure e3lctric cars are dead, at lkeast5 for the forseeable future. Audi has completely stopped just any development and pruction, all mother German car mnakers are sticking to it as alibis only, with tight lips and not being happy with it: it is about the green reputation they are after, but econiomically, the oingoing sinking of money is a disaster. Worldwide, practically all major car makers cannot report any successes that would justify any optimism over the future prospect for economic success in electric cars. Hybrid cars seem to be next coming thing. And even that is in question in North America, with the new oil and gas revolution currently going on there. Proving any green purposeful pessimists wrong who want to talk it down because it is evil energy, fracking and shale oil is doing well and currently turns around the energy industry there. And history has shown us so often: when there is no pressure from pain, then people do not change their habits. Maybe a green left tyranny will enforce it directly or indirectly even in America. But that is a different story. There is plenty to learn from the German totally misled so-called "en ergy turn". A policy that runs since some years over here - and is a money-crippling, social, total disaster and a total violation of just any economic reason.

[the_tyrant]

You know, tesla just posted a record quarter, they actually outsold many popular models from BMW, Audi, Lexus to have the most popular luxury car in the US.

The real problem with electric cars is recharging. It takes too damned long! It takes 5 minutes for me to fill up my gas car, but hours to do that with an electric. Imagine a lot of people heading to a popular destination, with gas cars, you can just line up and wait for the guys in front of you to fuel up, than fuel. But what about electrics? The charging infrastructure and speed just isn't there.

[Oberon]

It's one of those unfortunate situations where an idea is pushed into production to make money when the technology for it hasn't quite arrived yet.
We will likely come back to electric cars within the century, after all, oil is a finite resources, even with Shale oil around, and so the less objects using oil that are available, the better.

[STEED]

What is the point? Your modern day car has a lot of plastic and you don't need me to tell you where that comes from.

Invest in horses they are the future.

[Skybird]

As I see it, the main problem with electric cars is their short legs, and battery technology, this is also what is listed by industry insider as the number one problem. They practically make no advances in battery capacity, since many years. They try new tricks and constructions, without being able to increase the battery capacity decisively.

Insane and absolutely self-damaging concepts for changing energy infrastructure like it is being done in Germany, does not help it any further. Just totalitarian missionary spirit and establishing a faulty-by design system of subsidized installations so that the economic aspect is heavily porked form all beginning on, like to be seen over here in Germany, is not enough.

[mapuc]

I had an idea that combine two existing technologies. I have sent my ideas to some of the producer of those electric cars.

It's a while ago now and since then there are new type of batteries that can be "filled" within minutes and have a long time draining(can't remember the word)

Markus

[mako88sb]

I've always wondered if electric cars become as common as some would like to see, how much more expensive would electricity become for the average person? The old supply and demand rule would surely kick in plus it seems there's often a strain on the electric system to meet current demand.

[Platapus]

You know, tesla just posted a record quarter, they actually outsold many popular models from BMW, Audi, Lexus to have the most popular luxury car in the US.

The real problem with electric cars is recharging. It takes too damned long! It takes 5 minutes for me to fill up my gas car, but hours to do that with an electric. Imagine a lot of people heading to a popular destination, with gas cars, you can just line up and wait for the guys in front of you to fuel up, than fuel. But what about electrics? The charging infrastructure and speed just isn't there.

Now imagine that when you pull into a gas station, the gas station needed to refine the gasoline as you wait. It would take a very long time to refill your car. The solution was to have the gas service station store the "energy product" in a form that can be used by the customer immediately.

That concept can carry over to the electric car with a few changes. The problem is that an electric service station has plenty of electricity, but there are limitations on what form it needs to be in for the customer to be able to immediately use it.


One interesting proposed solution is to have standardized batteries that are easily replaced. When you pull up to an electric service station, the existing battery is quickly removed and an already charged battery is replaced and off you go. This could happen even faster than filling a traditional car with gas. Then, after the customer leaves, the electric service station recharges the battery at the slower rate.

Just as you can buy gas at any gas service station and use it in your car, using this system you can "buy" electricity at any electricity service station, but it is in the form of a battery, not a liquid.

The reason we don't replace our empty fuel tanks with full ones is because, since gasoline is a liquid, it is easier to simply pump it in to an existing empty tank. Electricity is a little different.

If we are going to use electric cars, we have to change our paradigm of how service stations operate.

[MH]

One interesting proposed solution is to have standardized batteries that are easily replaced. When you pull up to an electric service station, the existing battery is quickly removed and an already charged battery is replaced and off you go. This could happen even faster than filling a traditional car with gas. Then, after the customer leaves, the electric service station recharges the battery at the slower rate.

That is exactly the technology used by "better place " in Israel.
The tech exist but unfortunately only Renault makes cars like this.

[Platapus]

That is exactly the technology used by "better place " in Israel.
The tech exist but unfortunately only Renault makes cars like this.

That's the problem with standardization -- every one does it differently.

:D

[Wolferz]

Electric cars would go a long way toward greening the environment but,
The oil companies are a tad addicted to those huge profits they've been raking in since the internal combustion engine was invented. Since then big oil has done whatever was needed to insure their product will always be in high demand. In the late fifties and early sixties, they used their overwhelming supply of cash to shoot down fuel injection. Effectively delaying its adoption for another twenty years. They loved the fact that carbureted motors sucked gasoline and hated the fact that fuel injection was way too efficient. So, they paid off the big three to shelve the fuel injection. But much to their chagrin, that train had already left the station when big oil got big greedy.
The fully battery powered car has more cons than pros and that dog won't hunt. Gasoline/electric hybrids still have the major drawback of packing a huge heavy battery. The trade off in fuel economy isn't sufficient enough to make them viable for the average Joe because they're insanely expensive.

There is an alternative that meets the problem half way in the form of diesel electric hybrids. Like a fleet boat or a locomotive, The engine drives a generator that powers electric motors in the wheels.
Such a simple concept. The only problem is that the oil companies don't want it getting in the way of their bottom line.
I'm sure some clever fellow could figure out a way to convert water into hydrogen on the fly and we could all be filling our tanks with the garden hose.
As if.:haha:

[Platapus]

A diesel-electric series engine would be a good idea. Peugeot 308 was sold with that option. Wish we could buy them here. :yep:

[August]

One interesting proposed solution is to have standardized batteries that are easily replaced. When you pull up to an electric service station, the existing battery is quickly removed and an already charged battery is replaced and off you go. This could happen even faster than filling a traditional car with gas. Then, after the customer leaves, the electric service station recharges the battery at the slower rate.

Just as you can buy gas at any gas service station and use it in your car, using this system you can "buy" electricity at any electricity service station, but it is in the form of a battery, not a liquid.

I'd think a big problem with such a battery sharing scheme is that sometimes they go bad in less than obvious ways. I've owned many batteries over the years that will still take a charge but they drain out in a fraction of the time of a new one.

That's not going to be acceptable to someone who paid for a charged battery and is expecting to get a certain number of miles out of it.

[Stealhead]

A diesel-electric series engine would be a good idea. Peugeot 308 was sold with that option. Wish we could buy them here. :yep:


There are also already several gasoline-electric hybrids in production.
You could produce a diesel that runs on soy bean or peanut oil and has the hybrid set up or a gasoline engine that runs on 100% ethanol.

I have a diesel '93 Ford F-250 that I converted to run on soy bean or peanut oil.

@Wolferz The engines found in locomotives and old/and new submarines are not an example of a hybrid though not within the context of a hybrid motor vehicle engine anyway.In these types of engines the diesel must run constantly(when not running on batteries in the subs case) its job is to turn the electric motor which is the actual power source for locomotion they did happen to charge batteries in subs but that was a secondary benefit of the package.Only the electric motor has a connection to the transmission/screw.

In a hybrid motor vechile engine the primary power source is the electric battery and the engine only runs to help charge the batteries and to achieve certain speeds and also to help extend the life on the charge in the batteries but both the internal combustion engine and the electric motor have a direct connection to the transmission.In some designs braking also charges the batteries making this type of hybrid more efficient in stop and go type driving.


GE has been working with Union Pacific for the last 4 or 5 years with the end goal of designing a locomotive that mainly runs on electricity stored in batteries.

[CaptainHaplo]

In the late fifties and early sixties, they used their overwhelming supply of cash to shoot down fuel injection. Effectively delaying its adoption for another twenty years. They loved the fact that carbureted motors sucked gasoline and hated the fact that fuel injection was way too efficient. So, they paid off the big three to shelve the fuel injection. But much to their chagrin, that train had already left the station when big oil got big greedy.

Not sure where you got your information on this claim. The reality is that "Big Oil" spent a LOT of money buying up patents and IP for carburetor modifications. I personally know a guy who got a REALLY BIG check because he modified a carb to where he could get nearly 100 Miles per gallon. Granted - new oil cracking caused him problems - but there is a reason why auto manufacturers got rid of carburation. Really - think back - what was the average MPG in the and 80's - and then in 2005? Not much of a difference, though it was in the mid 80's that carburation started going away.

Fuel injection didn't increase "efficiency". They allow for "dirtier fuel" to be used (thus the requirement for catalytic converters in cars to keep excess crap from coming through exhausts). We no longer "skim" process oil, now they "crack" the oil to get fuel in refining. This creates a difficulty for carburation.

The reality is that fuel efficiency in cars could be greatly increased. It does have to do with profits for "big oil" - but it also collusion by the government and big auto.

Electric in the long term will NOT be the future.

In time - mark my words - hydrogen will be the fuel of choice. Probably somewhere by 2025 or 2030.

The issues on Hydrogen is infrastructure and stability right now. It takes about 5M$ to build a fuel station for Hydrogen, and who is going to invest that before cars hit the road? Who will buy the car when there is no fuel station?

There stability issue is coming up with a standard format for fuel and use. That will come as the makers work closer to a standard all are willing to adopt.

[Stealhead]

it was in the mid 80's that carburation started going away.

Fuel injection didn't increase "efficiency". They allow for "dirtier fuel" to be used (thus the requirement for catalytic converters in cars to keep excess crap from coming through exhausts).


What you say is true I think another major player that helped push out carbonation was the increased use of computers in cars.Before they could be electronically controlled fuel injection was only found on some very high performance cars.

Catalytic converters on the other hand became a requirement of the DOT back in 1975 about ten years before fuel injection became standard. Fuel injection became popular because it can be more easily controlled electronically and could be tied into an electronic emissions control system.A fuel injection is also simply put a more efficient way to deliver fuel so it in theory actually is more fuel efficient than a carburetor and in modern cars produced in that last few years the fuel injection system is highly efficient.

Ask any shade tree mechanic how hard to can be to get a pesky carb running smoothly.It can be a real chore if especially on a multi carb setup.It took me weeks to get the triple Webbers on my '72 240 working just right.

This article explains it well
http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/engine/ques075_4.html

[MH]

That's the problem with standardization -- every one does it differently.

:D

Yeah lol

Funny thing is that the customers are very happy about their cars.
The problem i think is in the marketing as it is psychological one , to make people switch to electric cars.
The issue of only one car type on the market does not help either.

[Wolferz]

Ask any shade tree mechanic how hard to can be to get a pesky carb running smoothly.It can be a real chore if especially on a multi carb setup.It took me weeks to get the triple Webbers on my '72 240 working just right

Preaching to the choir.:)

Try tuning the triple carb setup on a '53 corvette six banger. I've done it.:up:.
I have rebuilt about every kind of carb ever used.

GM started tinkering with fuel injection in 1957 but didn't really get serious about it until around 1970. Brought about, as was mentioned above, by electronic control systems. The ECM (Electronic Control Module) was first invented for use in the space shuttle program. Little computers designed for their light weight. Which enabled them to be used as multiple redundant systems on the shuttle orbiters. First applied to automobile engines made by GM around 1976 and were standard equipment from 1977 on.
Unless someone comes up with a commercially and economically viable battery powered system, hydrogen will become the fuel of the future as fossil fuels begin to wane in their abundance. It burns so much cleaner than that dirty old gasoline.
Stainless steel exhaust systems will become a priority due to hydrogen's exhaust type being water.

As for my claim that the oil companies squelched new patents on more fuel efficient equipment, there is no proof that can be readily accessed for public viewing. If you ran a big oil company...
How deep would you bury that kind of damning information?

Look how deep Tesla's inventions and research got buried by the "Owners of society" with the blessings of their government.

It's all about the Benjamins boys and girls.

[Stealhead]

Preaching to the choir.:)

Try tuning the triple carb setup on a '53 corvette six banger. I've done it.:up:.
I have rebuilt about every kind of carb ever used.

GM started tinkering with fuel injection in 1957 but didn't really get serious about it until around 1970. Brought about, as was mentioned above, by electronic control systems. The ECM (Electronic Control Module) was first invented for use in the space shuttle program. Little computers designed for their light weight. Which enabled them to be used as multiple redundant systems on the shuttle orbiters. First applied to automobile engines made by GM around 1976 and were standard equipment from 1977 on.
Unless someone comes up with a commercially and economically viable battery powered system, hydrogen will become the fuel of the future as fossil fuels begin to wane in their abundance. It burns so much cleaner than that dirty old gasoline.
Stainless steel exhaust systems will become a priority due to hydrogen's exhaust type being water.

As for my claim that the oil companies squelched new patents on more fuel efficient equipment, there is no proof that can be readily accessed for public viewing. If you ran a big oil company...
How deep would you bury that kind of damning information?

Look how deep Tesla's inventions and research got buried by the "Owners of society" with the blessings of their government.

It's all about the Benjamins boys and girls.

I do not know if I fully agree with your argument that oil companies wanted things to be less efficient per say they also have some of the best chemists working for them so they can come up with all manner of things.

This defies logic from a supply sense if fuel was consumed too rapidly then they would be unable to supply it fast enough in order to meet demand.No large business operation makes a good profit by having an in demand product become too scarce or have notable supply issues.It is bad for business legal or illegal.Look at how much money and effort drug cartels around the world put into supply.

With an electric vehicle the money is in charging the batteries I predict this will cause suppliers to focus on short life span rapid charge time batteries they want people to stop for a short time more often than a long span less often.It is not really in their best interest to produce a battery that has a very long life span(per charge) but also lengthy change time.Of course the thing I love about a 100% electric car is that it still relies on fossil fuels where did the electricity that charged that battery come from most likely a coal fired power plant.

People tend to forget that when automobiles first came into use there where three major power sources 1.Steam 2.Gasoline 3.Electric it took about ten years for the gasoline powered automobile to dominate the market.It will take at least that long for a fully viable replacement of gasoline/diesel powered vehicles to take over.And in large diesel/diesel-electric applications such as ships,trains(North American) and large tucks and other heavy equipment it may take a while longer before something comes along that can equal or surpass the torque that a diesel/diesel-electric can generate in the same size package(a very large electric motor can produce far more torque but is not mobile and is typically powered by water turbines or coal or natural gas powered turbines(think power plant applications).

[Wolferz]

Laws of supply and demand do only one thing. They dictate the price of the product. I've been around cars and trucks long enough to have witnessed the full gambit from price wars for abundant gasoline to shortages caused by OPEC greed. Believe me , Oil companies love supplying their product to inefficient cars. As long as there is oil and cars that use it, they'll be happy to keep pumping it out of the ground. Compared to the current choices for alternatives, gasoline still gives you the biggest bang for the buck.:03:

Have you noticed the price disparity between diesel and gasoline? Diesel costs more than gas for no good reason. It takes fewer steps to crack oil into diesel than it does gasoline. A fact that used to make diesel cheaper per gallon.
Why do you suppose it flip fopped?
Because diesel fuel moves our freight? Because fuel oil runs our boilers? Some oil executive decided to make it so? All of the above?

I would love to see electric cars become a viable transportation choice but, it's going to take time and a great deal of ingenuity.

[Stealhead]

Have you noticed the price disparity between diesel and gasoline? Diesel costs more than gas for no good reason. It takes fewer steps to crack oil into diesel than it does gasoline. A fact that used to make diesel cheaper per gallon.
Why do you suppose it flip fopped?
Because diesel fuel moves our freight? Because fuel oil runs our boilers? Some oil executive decided to make it so? All of the above?

.

It costs more because the demand for diesel has risen.The federal tax for diesel is also higher than the federal on gasoline. .24 cents per gallon compared to .6 cents per gallon on gasoline.

I'm sorry but not everything is a conspiracy of oil companies.And dont mistake me for a person who does not ask questions I barely fit into that mold in the military and often got in trouble for my free thinking. If oil companies really had the power to force us to drive less efficient vehicles new cars would not be averaging 34+ per gallon hell even pickups now are averaging 25MPG fifteen years ago the typical sedan got 25~28MPG now they get 30 at worst and trucks went from ~14 to 25 MPG so vehicles are getting more fuel efficient despite your claim that oil companies want less efficient engines.They must really be holding the auto makers ears to the frying pan.

Additionally everyone in China and India wants to drive a car now so the demand for both gasoline and diesel has risen as a result.


Diesel has been used in heavy equipment for many years so the argument that the price is higher for that reason does not stand.Fuel oil is but one method to heat a structure and it is rapidly being replaced by natural gas in many places.


http://www.factcheck.org/2008/05/diesel-fuel-and-gasoline-costs/

[Wolferz]

All good points Stealhead. Higher demand always equates to higher prices thanks to those meddling speculators on Wall Street and Uncle Sam's need for cash.:down:

For me, all points are moot since I don't drive much anymore. A 25 gallon tank of petrol in my V-8 pickup lasts me about a month.:up:
I could probably get by with an electric car as my trips are mostly short hops but, the current cost of that type of vehicle is prohibitive. I wouldn't mind having a Tesla parked in my driveway.

If we really wanted to boil down the technology of our internal combustion pushers, you could say that they're all electrically powered since it takes some very high voltage to detonate a fuel/air mixture. Without that you have a gargantuan paper weight. Diesels are the exception to some degree because they only have glow plugs to start the cycle and detonation is caused by high compression.

Thank goodness I don't have to depend on a fuel oil boiler to heat my home. I burn COAL baby. No natural gas in my neck of the woods prohibits that type of heat and propane is more expensive than fuel oil. Not to mention inherently dangerous.

[Stealhead]

The whole MPG thing can be very deceiving because how a person drives and most importantly accelerates and brakes has huge effect.Also the "rules" the EPA has about the testing auto makers are supposed to do is very loosely interpreted.

The people that drive around and mash the gas a lot and get to the speed they want to travel at rapidly will always have crap mileage.If they where to drive any vehicle in the same manner they would still have poor mileage results be it a gasoline or hydrogen or electric.

I am the steady type when I am driving most of the time (excluding certain times that I drive my Z car) so I get fairly good mileage.What I really get a kick out of are the people that stomp the gas get up to 70 or whatever and then 500 yards down the road they turn off.What a waste of fuel just to get there .5 seconds faster.

Sometimes I see a Prius (which I already think is a preposterous car because it more of a total impact on the environment than a Toyota Tundra thanks to its complex construction and the sourcing required to make a Prius) and the driver is going 90 MPH I think what a jack wagon the odds are also very high that the driver is also a vegan and makes sure that he mentions it to everyone that he meets.You ever notice that? I have no idea how many people I know are herbivores or that dont eat pork or whatever but I know of total strangers that are vegans and usually they do drive a Prius and give it a stupid name like Taco Blanco gluten free, meat free, fish free, harmed plant free Taco Blanco.Why not ride a bicycle if you really wanted to protect the environment?

Not trying to ruffle any Prius owning vegans out there just rambling.If you choose to make yourself known though............