Barack Obama defends 'just war' using drones

[Gerald]

Drones effective scout.

President Obama says it is a "hard fact" that drone strikes have killed civilians.President Barack Obama has defended the use of drones in a "just war" of self-defence against deadly militants and a campaign that had made America safer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22638533

Note: 24 May 2013 Last updated at 05:53 GMT

[MH]

Damn....terminator drones.
Where is John Connor when you need him.

[Catfish]

Seems drone kills have recently been put on the list of international war crimes.
So Obama's speech might be a reaction to this
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-legality-of-war-pakistani-court-rules-cia-drone-strikes-constitute-a-war-crime/5334665
and that
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57586008/angry-pakistanis-fight-to-end-u.s-drone-strikes/

"Oops well you know our drone attacks killed a lot of civilians, but we will be more cautious in the future."
:doh:

[mookiemookie]

Rights going down the drain. :nope: And their justification for doing it is pretty much just the honor system. "Oh don't worry, we killed these guys. Trust us, they were bad guys. Of course we can't show you any of the evidence against them, because that would be a national security breach, but trust us, they were bad guys."

The United States government definitively says it can kill its citizens if it's too inconvenient to arrest them and try them. That's the bottom line. If you think your government, no matter who is in the White House, should have that power, then you really don't care about your rights.

[AVGWarhawk]

The United States government definitively says it can kill its citizens if it's too inconvenient to arrest them and try them. That's the bottom line. If you think your government, no matter who is in the White House, should have that power, then you really don't care about your rights.

The way I understood POTUS is US citizen on foreign soil actively engaging in activity to harm US citizens is fair game for a drone. The citizenship renounced. Nowhere did he say it is ok to use a drone against a US citizen here in the states. This is how I understood the 60 second portion of the speech I heard.

[Ducimus]

Rights going down the drain. :nope: And their justification for doing it is pretty much just the honor system. "Oh don't worry, we killed these guys. Trust us, they were bad guys. Of course we can't show you any of the evidence against them, because that would be a national security breach, but trust us, they were bad guys."

The United States government definitively says it can kill its citizens if it's too inconvenient to arrest them and try them. That's the bottom line. If you think your government, no matter who is in the White House, should have that power, then you really don't care about your rights.

I would have to concur.

edit:

The way I understood POTUS is US citizen on foreign soil actively engaging in activity to harm US citizens is fair game for a drone. The citizenship renounced. Nowhere did he say it is ok to use a drone against a US citizen here in the states. This is how I understood the 60 second portion of the speech I heard.

I can understand an active shooting situation. I can also understand if said scumbag citizen happen to be in the wrong place at the right time. As in, "oops, I guess he shouldn't have been there then huh?" However if said person is ever captured, they still have due process.

[Tribesman]

Seems drone kills have recently been put on the list of international war crimes.

No. A local court has made a local ruling.


he United States government definitively says it can kill its citizens if it's too inconvenient to arrest them and try them.
Doesn't that make it plain extra-judicial murder. Which is exactly what other governments get condemned for doing

[mookiemookie]

The way I understood POTUS is US citizen on foreign soil actively engaging in activity to harm US citizens is fair game for a drone. The citizenship renounced.

That does not count as renouncing your citizenship. There is a formal process for doing so.

[AVGWarhawk]

That does not count as renouncing your citizenship. There is a formal process for doing so.

Ducimus:
I can understand an active shooting situation. I can also understand if said scumbag citizen happen to be in the wrong place at the right time. As in, "oops, I guess he shouldn't have been there then huh?" However if said person is ever captured, they still have due process.

Agreed.

Mookie:

The formal process is handled without the target present. Such is life. Drone dispatched.

[GoldenRivet]

The United States government definitively says it can kill its citizens if it's too inconvenient to arrest them and try them. That's the bottom line. If you think your government, no matter who is in the White House, should have that power, then you really don't care about your rights.

^this

I was supportive of drone strikes when it was for recon purposes, or for taking out some truck full of terrorists... but when you consider that some or all of the occupants of the truck are born in Parma Ohio, raised in Newark, New Jersey and in their adult years became militant against the US government... well it makes no difference, protected by the constitution = protected by the constitution any way you slice it.

It is unprecedented - our own government is using remote drone warfare to murder US Citizens who have been deemed unworthy of due process of law.

If it can be proven that any president, past or present authorized drone strikes against US Citizens... they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[AVGWarhawk]

^this



It is unprecedented - our own government is using remote drone warfare to murder US Citizens who have been deemed unworthy of due process of law.



The due process is handled without the said individual involved in the proceedings that are held to determine if the individual is worthy. He just did not want to come in and talk about it. :shifty: Drone dispatched.

[mookiemookie]

The formal process is handled without the target present. Such is life. Drone dispatched.

So if the President wanted you dead, all he'd have to do is say "AVG isn't a citizen anymore. Boom. Take him out."

There seems to be a fundamental flaw there...

[Skybird]

Like it or not, drones are the future, and they become increasingly omnipresent - not only in warzone, but our public sphere in our home countries, too. Media, police, everybody - try to stop it. You will fail. Heck, even for private use, toy-drones are being sold. That is a door-opener - to make them being taken for normal, and raise acceptance by that. The F-35 is most likely the last manned combat fighter build by the US. And it is not just the sky. Drones for naval operations are being build, too. And drones for landwarfare.

Militarily, drones obviously are vulnerable to one main concern: the vulnerability of the control signal link. Iran claimed to have successfully interfered with the radio signals remote-controlling one US drone, and by that triggering the automatic emergency landing protocols of that drone that enabled Iran to get it in its hand and gain access to the video memory.

What that means, is a logical step that many of you will like even less: the shifting from remote-controlled to autonomous combat drones. I do not like it, you do not like it, most people will not like it, and legislation will be made to prevent or at least limit that. But autonomous drones are the logical next step. And it will become real.

And not in just 30 years or so.

There is another concern. Drones are made of components manufactured by a variety of nations. You cannot conclude by the built drone you captured who really has send it. With more and more nations, and the technically interested public enthusiasts, organised crime and the academic international community anyway having access to cheap and unsuspicious electronic components and the knowledge how to assemble a drone (a pipe bomb, a nuclear bomb etc) thanks to the internet, not only nations can soon send a combat drone into action without allowing to be identified and thus being held responsible for it: especially organised crime, terrorists wil be doing it also.

Mr. Redline alias Mr. Buticannot has by now collected an impressive record of empty speeches that arouse emotions and are rhetorically brilliant more or less, its just that his words tend to mean nothing but hot air. And even if there will be treaties and laws (and I strictly doubt the American and any state's interest in such laws since state governments are about control and power, not freedom): is anyone really naive enough to think that that will mean anything?

[soopaman2]

You lost me Obama...

We have a thing called "due process"
The right to a fair trial.
The right to not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.

How long until they hellfire missile a pot smoker? They get more time than Pedos in some places BTW.
I defended this toolbag for as long as I been a member here, I am still a somewhat lefty, but Obama is a spineless, self serving, weasel of a man, who uses his charisma to deflect his continuation of policies that he vilified to win the 2008 elections.

Even the far left wing rag, the huffington Post, is trashing him. Hard to piss off the food stamp publication... Real hard.

Between him and that (vile expletive deleted) Eric Holder, I am sick to my stomach.

Chris Christie 2016!
(I am not paid to keep saying that, though I should be)

We need a moderate. Not a DINO like Obama, or a "legacy holder" (aka American version of a monarachy) like Bush or any of his stupid hick relatives..

Obama....*sighs*:oops:

[Stealhead]

How long until they hellfire missile a pot smoker? They get more time than Pedos in some places BTW.


A dealer or grower perhaps but a person just smoking pot in most states these days they will get a summons and pay a fine not much worse than a traffic violation.It depends on the state of course in a growing number a personal amount is not even a crime.

They waste their time fighting marijuana anyway it is the number one cash crop in the Appalachians down in Tennessee and Kentucky as well as several California counties.

They would send a Hellfire at Montecillo because Thomas Jefferson grew hemp which is now illegal even though hemp has no psychotropic properties.

What makes you think that Chris Christie would be any different than any other president these days? You underestimate the power that money has over politics even presidents they all do what they are told.

[soopaman2]

A dealer or grower perhaps but a person just smoking pot in most states these days they will get a summons and pay a fine not much worse than a traffic violation.It depends on the state of course in a growing number a personal amount is not even a crime.




Pardon the slight derail but 40 miles north of me in Newark, NJ (A real ghetto craphole for all those who do not know,used to be the car theft capital of the world, now it is gang ridden) , pot is a ticket/fine.

The town I live in on the Jersey Shore, you get a mugshot taken, and a booking, fingerprints taken, everything. Middle class neighborhood, etc...

It is municipality based.

That is where my hellfire missile comment came from, sir.:salute:
The Federal Gov dictates laws as it sees fit, just see how they persecute legal pot states dispensiaries. Trudging on states rights, I almost see why they attacked Fort Sumpter.

[Stealhead]

Pardon the slight derail but 40 miles north of me in Newark, NJ (A real ghetto craphole for all those who do not know,used to be the car theft capital of the world, now it is gang ridden) , pot is a ticket/fine.

The town I live in on the Jersey Shore, you get a mugshot taken, and a booking, fingerprints taken, everything.

It is municipality based.

That is where my hellfire missile comment came from, sir.:salute:

Well you live in a place that has backwards views you either must deal with it or move to a state that allows you to smoke.Though the view is changing as more and more people see that the "War on Drugs" is a multibillion dollar waste of money.

Also if more people realized that waiting to eat pizza with your friends while playing "Golden Axe" and laughing non stop as your buddy beats the entire game without dying once because he is in the zone they would have a different view.

People still think that you become an axe murder after smoking kind of sad really because there are a ton of people that could smoke a joint instead of popping Prozac.

[Webster]

The United States government definitively says it can kill its citizens if it's too inconvenient to arrest them and try them. That's the bottom line. If you think your government, no matter who is in the White House, should have that power, then you really don't care about your rights.

well then they need to send the drones after Obama and all his cronies because its obviously too inconvenient to arrest them and try them or even do a proper investigation on them.

[AVGWarhawk]

So if the President wanted you dead, all he'd have to do is say "AVG isn't a citizen anymore. Boom. Take him out."

There seems to be a fundamental flaw there...

The fundamental flow here is you making the process to simplistic. It is not quite as easy as picking up the red phone at 0100 and ordering a drone strike on my humble abode.

[AVGWarhawk]

Pardon the slight derail but 40 miles north of me in Newark, NJ (A real ghetto craphole for all those who do not know,used to be the car theft capital of the world, now it is gang ridden) , pot is a ticket/fine.



And what is Christie doing about it?

[soopaman2]

And what is Christie doing about it?


Actually trying to work across party lines...Unlike 90% of our government.

He was kicked out of the GOP "good ol boys" club for praising Obama on his response to Hurricane/superstorm Sandy.

Too bad congress crapped on our relief funds, I bet the red state tornado guys get the cash though, no obstruction or fillibusters at all!

[Catfish]

You lost me Obama...

Good post, but you do not really think that a republican president would not have done that ? Of course he would have !
So I really wonder why republicans now bash Obama for using drones ..
I was astonished though Obama did it. What became of his promises, like Guantanamo. The nobel prize indeed.
If a 'democrat' Potus does the same as a 'republican' one, where is the choice ?

[AVGWarhawk]

Actually trying to work across party lines...Unlike 90% of our government.

He was kicked out of the GOP "good ol boys" club for praising Obama on his response to Hurricane/superstorm Sandy.

Too bad congress crapped on our relief funds, I bet the red state tornado guys get the cash though, no obstruction or fillibusters at all!


What party lines? A crap neighborhood in NJ. There is no party lines. Hurricane Sandy has nothing to do with my question. Obama is not mentioned. What is Christie doing about this neighborhood?

[GoldenRivet]

anyone notice how they called in drones to help find Christopher Dorner?

they went so far as to label him as a "Domestic Terrorist" at one point

how much further does this need to be pushed before you end up with a situation where a man on the run is labeled a domestic terrorist and gets a bomb dropped on him?

then the state tells the people "He was a bad guy, he was a domestic terrorist! we had to do this we had no choice"

how long before the people start buying those explanations as acceptable?

it is then... when it is not questioned or really thought about that anyone who questions the government, questions the president, questions authority - whatever - is suddenly a violent domestic terrorist and should be drone-smashed

Like it or not...

http://www.dangerouscreation.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/obamamask.png

[Tchocky]

anyone notice how they called in drones to help find Christopher Dorner?

they went so far as to label him as a "Domestic Terrorist" at one point

The "they" here was the LAPD, who have come under massive criticism for how they handled this. Nobody further up the food chain considered Dorner a terrorist.

how much further does this need to be pushed before you end up with a situation where a man on the run is labeled a domestic terrorist and gets a bomb dropped on him? Quite a lot further.

[GoldenRivet]

The "they" here was the LAPD, who have come under massive criticism for how they handled this. Nobody further up the food chain considered Dorner a terrorist.

Quite a lot further.

I agree

but that it is even on the table is a problem

[soopaman2]

Well you live in a place that has backwards views you either must deal with it or move to a state that allows you to smoke.Though the view is changing as more and more people see that the "War on Drugs" is a multibillion dollar waste of money.

Also if more people realized that waiting to eat pizza with your friends while playing "Golden Axe" and laughing non stop as your buddy beats the entire game without dying once because he is in the zone they would have a different view.

People still think that you become an axe murder after smoking kind of sad really because there are a ton of people that could smoke a joint instead of popping Prozac.


Just for the record, I get tested at my job, I operate heavy machinery. I can get nailed even if I drink too close to the blood test.

Just saying, sorry to derail, again, I suck.:timeout:

Not a stoner myself, used to be, but I do not see the harm in it (IMHO)

I am with you on the prozac and pot reference. Sadly we are potential drone hellfire missile targets because of it.

[soopaman2]

What party lines? A crap neighborhood in NJ. There is no party lines. Hurricane Sandy has nothing to do with my question. Obama is not mentioned. What is Christie doing about this neighborhood?


He put a cap on property taxes, which NJ is highest in the nation on, My taxes rise every year, thanks to school unions, fleecing the taxpayers with no kids...

He stood up for NJ citizens getting screwed by insurance companies, and congress, when anytime a thunderstorm farts in a southern state, they get the dollars no freaking problem.

But with a blue state, it is a problem...

I can go on and on. He also adresses people in open town halls, no prescreened questions, or prescreened admissions, he talks to people on the radio weekly. adresses concerns, and even solves some citizens problems instantly, using his connections.

I live in NJ. I know what he has done, and I am making more money in his term. My property taxes actually stabilzed, rather than going up, as my house value dropped.

Once again I live in NJ, and go ahead make a stinky joke, but he has turned this state around, despite partisan crap.

(by the way I am left leaning, and Christie is a Republican, so yeah, I am judging what is best, and not my political leaning.)

(Edit: always a big fan of yours AVG, great plane, and even greater person. Please do not take my statements as hostility, simply debating a pal :))

[AVGWarhawk]

I am with you on the prozac and pot reference. Sadly we are potential drone hellfire missile targets because of it.

Were did you read that you are a target if you are on prozac or smoke pot? Last time I check a few states legalized pot. Prozac is a prescribed medication.

[AVGWarhawk]

He put a cap on property taxes, which NJ is highest in the nation on, My taxes rise every year, thanks to school unions, fleecing the taxpayers with no kids...

He stood up for NJ citizens getting screwed by insurance companies, and congress, when anytime a thunderstorm farts in a southern state, they get the dollars no freaking problem.

But with a blue state, it is a problem...

I can go on and on. He also adresses people in open town halls, no prescreened questions, or prescreened admissions.

I live in NJ. I know what he has done, and I am making more money in his term. My property taxes actually stabilzed, rather than going up, as mu house value dropped.

Once again I live in NJ, and go ahead make a stinky joke, but he has turned this state around, despite partisan crap.

None of what stated has helped the Newark, NJ (A real ghetto craphole for all those who do not know,used to be the car theft capital of the world, now it is gang ridden) , pot is a ticket/fine.

What are you afraid of in the real "ghetto" crap hole? Why has Christie not cleaned up Newark? Will not help him politically no reason to address the ghetto?

[soopaman2]

None of what stated has helped the

What are you afraid of in the real "ghetto" crap hole? Why has Christie not cleaned up Newark? Will not help him politically no reason to address the ghetto?


Like any politician, they will not touch an inner city ghetto.

Pisses off the activists. Chicago and Detroit can be brought up as well, no politician cares about those cities.

I am not call Christie Jesus, just giving a moderate republican some creedence in a world of "Christian Sharia" tea baggers, and John "crybaby jobs,jobs,jobs" Boehner.

[GoldenRivet]

I've been to new jersey several times.

it has its nice areas, but on the whole, most of the entire state is a garbage heap.

I pray i never have to go back to that place.

the graffiti is really nice in the fall though :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Like any politician, they will not touch an inner city ghetto.

Pisses off the activists. Chicago and Detroit can be brought up as well, no politician cares about those cities.

I am not call Christie Jesus, just giving a moderate republican some creedence in a world of "Christian Sharia" tea baggers, and John "crybaby jobs,jobs,jobs" Boehner.

You keep touting Christie for 2016. Will DC improve, as well as the country, with another politician that will not touch the inner cities?

[AVGWarhawk]

I've been to new jersey several times.

it has its nice areas, but on the whole, most of the entire state is a garbage heap.

I pray i never have to go back to that place.

the graffiti is really nice in the fall though :up:

The western side towards PA is not bad at all. Countryside!

[soopaman2]

I've been to new jersey several times.

it has its nice areas, but on the whole, most of the entire state is a garbage heap.

I pray i never have to go back to that place.

the graffiti is really nice in the fall though :up:


You must have been up north, where New York has spilled it crap over onto us.

Come down the shore, there is more to Jersey than what ya see on the stinky Turnpike.:D

Belmar, NJ. I guarantee the sea air, and great nightlife will change your mean opinion. Meany!:D

[GoldenRivet]

I thought Cape May was decent.

I go where the work sends me.

The north half of the state is unpleasant.

Im looking at you Jersey City

specifically right at you Stegman Street :stare:

[soopaman2]

I thought Cape May was decent.

I go where the work sends me.

The north half of the state is unpleasant.

Im looking at you Jersey City

specifically right at you Stegman Street :stare:

Drive down Martin Luther King boulevard for a real show.

Jersey City is so close to Newark it may as well be the same thing.:D Literally 5 minutes drive away, no bull

I am so sorry you had to see that...I got some stories from my drug filled youth, when I actually put myself into places like this.

Monmouth county south is safe, and beautiful.

Until you get to Camden, which is scuzzed up by Philly.

NJ gets a bad rap, but it is NYC ers and Phillies who overspill all of their crime into our suburb.


North Jersey stinks because New York city and its smog stinks us up. South Jersey stinks because Camden and Philly are gang ridden cesspits.

Central Jersey, Goldilocks. Just right.:D:up:

[Stealhead]

Every state/city has its pleasant areas and its cess pools.

Even Utah, Salt Lake City has its gang banger drug dealing abstainers from drinking caffeine.

I think there is to some extent a reluctance to deal with ghetto areas it seems easier to just ignore them.

Not that much of this has anything to do with Hellfire equipped drones.

[soopaman2]

Every state/city has its pleasant areas and its cess pools.

Even Utah, Salt Lake City has its gang banger drug dealing abstainers from drinking caffeine.

I think there is to some extent a reluctance to deal with ghetto areas it seems easier to just ignore them.

Not that much of this has anything to do with Hellfire equipped drones.


If a white girl gets killed it is a huge story, if a few bangers off each other it is business as usual.

That is why we hear about the Natalie Halloways, and not the Shamequa Browns.

Look at all the attention Chicago gets, for the wrong reasons.

Some of these cats deserve a missile, but a trial by peers would be better.

I am all about justice, and letter of the law.

Obama and Holder got a little too power happy, and will now reap the hellfire.

(edit: is that discourse Takeda? don't want to offend a forum favorite)

[August]

You guys keep talking of big bombs and missiles but I think future attack drones will be the size of flies or smaller. You don't have to create a 30ft crater to kill someone and it almost always causes collateral damage when you do.

I also think Skybird is right about them being autonomous (subject to some sort of abort/recall signal of course). Imagine the ability to release a bunch of flies on the outskirts of a city and they all go find the jugular veing of their intended targets wherever they might be hiding. Self powered and solar regenerated they can wait for months on the side of a building or tree for their target to appear and when it does the drone activates and completes it's mission.

On the surveillance side this continued miniaturization in drone technology will eventually allow the operator to gain visual and audio (and other sensory) access to just about anywhere. If we can't stop cockroaches and other bugs from invading our living spaces we ain't gonna stop tiny drones. The only way to counter it would be to allow the use of counter technology such as signal jamming, drone detecting systems, even maybe my personal favorite hunter killer, anti-drone drones . :D

Times are a changing and it's going to be a challenge to preserve our rights and liberties.

[Skybird]

The book to read:

Daniel Suarez: Kill Decision. A thriller that goes slightly, just slightly, into science fiction. Autonomous drones meet ants' swarm intelligence: have a nice day. :dead:

Matches the issue talked of in here, but is not his best books. Much better are his first two, Demon, and Darknet, which belong together. Again, slightly Science Fiction, but slightly so only. The trend towards it, is there. - Suarez is a former software engineer and IT expert.

---

On people thinking that just replacing this politicians for another one - this time the right one, or replacing that party at the helm with a different one, the correct one: as long as this thinking is there, I know that there is not the smallest amount of hope. Politicians and parties must step aside, or they must be kicked aside. What the discussion compares to is a reasoning on whether it is better to have Malaria spreaded by black or grey mosquitos.

[Platapus]

The way I understood POTUS is US citizen on foreign soil actively engaging in activity to harm US citizens is fair game for a drone. The citizenship renounced.

The government can not revoke the citizenship of a natural-born citizen. Naturalized citizens can have their citizenship revoked.

A natural-born citizen can choose to revoke their own citizenship but the government can't take it away from them.

Concerning the drones, I am having a hard time imagining that a person 10,000 miles away is posing an immediate and imminent threat to the US.

When it comes to using drones against US citizens, the Bush/Obama policy violates so many rights I can't wait for this to come up before the SCOTUS. And there is no way Obama can avoid responsibility. :nope:

[Tchocky]

Interesting chunk of the speech that I found to be the central decision-making problem at work here.

by narrowly targeting our action against those who want to kill us, and not the people they hide among, we are choosing the course of action least likely to result in the loss of innocent life. Indeed, our efforts must also be measured against the history of putting American troops in distant lands among hostile populations. In Vietnam, hundreds of thousands of civilians died in a war where the boundaries of battle were blurred. In Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the courage and discipline of our troops, thousands of civilians have been killed. So neither conventional military action, nor waiting for attacks to occur, offers moral safe-harbor. Neither does a sole reliance on law enforcement in territories that have no functioning police or security services – and indeed, have no functioning law.

It's a real no-good-option situation, made worse by the weird fact that people seem to have a different response to the word "drone" than "airstrike".

[Sailor Steve]

Even Utah, Salt Lake City has its gang banger drug dealing abstainers from drinking caffeine.
HEY! No personal attacks! Leave me out of this! :x

[mookiemookie]

When it comes to using drones against US citizens, the Bush/Obama policy violates so many rights I can't wait for this to come up before the SCOTUS. And there is no way Obama can avoid responsibility. :nope:

I really hope it does. Between this and the constant stream of news about how the FBI is always pushing for more and more online and telephone surveillance, we're getting to a very chilling point in history.

[garren]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Interesting chunk of the speech that I found to be the central decision-making problem at work here.



It's a real no-good-option situation, made worse by the weird fact that people seem to have a different response to the word "drone" than "airstrike".
QFT

[Catfish]

Interesting that just of all those criticize Obama, who would have supported any right-wing hawk president doing the very same.

As asked before:
Would a republican president not have used drones, like they were used recently ?

The weapons industry along with some advisors and those 'special' services must be laughing hard, that just of all a democrat did what they intended to do anyway, and who now is being blamed for all, and by all.

[Skybird]

Interesting that just of all those criticize Obama, who would have supported any right-wing hawk president doing the very same.

As asked before:
Would a republican president not have used drones, like they were used recently ?

The weapons industry along with some advisors and those 'special' services must be laughing hard, that just of all a democrat did what they intended to do anyway, and who now is being blamed for all, and by all.

My thoughts exactly. Mr. Redline is kind of a vacuum - but he is not guilty of just everything.


On people thinking that just replacing this politicians for another one - this time the right one, or replacing that party at the helm with a different one, the correct one: as long as this thinking is there, I know that there is not the smallest amount of hope. Politicians and parties must step aside, or they must be kicked aside. What the discussion compares to is a reasoning on whether it is better to have Malaria spread by black or grey mosquitos.

[Gerald]

Drones would I use on the sea, in order to pre-see weather changes instead of having a Doppler radar.

[August]

Would a republican president not have used drones, like they were used recently ?

I'd say probably not given the storm of criticism that would have unleashed upon him. My question is why do folks ignore a real Democrat example of this in favor of fictional Republican what-if?

[Platapus]

I'd say probably not given the storm of criticism that would have unleashed upon him. My question is why do folks ignore a real Democrat example of this in favor of fictional Republican what-if?

I don't think anyone is ignoring this, hence this thread discussion.

[Catfish]

I'd say probably not given the storm of criticism that would have unleashed upon him. My question is why do folks ignore a real Democrat example of this in favor of fictional Republican what-if?

I just say that i would understand the republicans criticizing the health care system, or any other management change that 'violates' their point of view or political stance, but republicans bashing Obama for keeping up Guantanamo and using drones seems a bit hypocritical.
And yes, i am very disappointed of him. I know the factions block each other in alomost everything, it seems party politics are more important than the wellbeing of the country.
Maybe we agree principally, if for other reasons :)

Platapus - what you said.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

P.S. i returned to put this formula at the end of my posts, because Abraham once said he liked it. I just remembered him. RIP

[August]

I don't think anyone is ignoring this, hence this thread discussion.

Well it just seems to me that the Lefts perpetual answer to their sides mistakes or malfeasance is to justify or excuse it by pointing out past republican transgressions, or in this case their potential for committing transgressions.

That's like trying to justify murdering your neighbor because someone else murdered their neighbor years ago.

[Platapus]

Well it just seems to me that the Lefts perpetual answer to their sides mistakes or malfeasance is to justify or excuse it by pointing out past republican transgressions, or in this case their potential for committing transgressions.

That's like trying to justify murdering your neighbor because someone else murdered their neighbor years ago.

I believe it is widely accepted that both sides are guilty of committing Tu quoque fallacies in their arguments when it serves them best. I can't recall anyone on this board ever claiming that only one "side" does it.

It would be an impossible claim to support in any case. :D

[mookiemookie]

It's not a justification. It's pointing out the hypocrisy.

"IOKIYAR" (http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/It's+OK+If+You're+A+Republican) and all that.

[August]

It's not a justification. It's pointing out the hypocrisy.

"IOKIYAR" (http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/It's+OK+If+You're+A+Republican) and all that.

Except that Dems have been using this dodge for the past 5 years. Ain't it about time you started taking at least some responsibility for your own peoples actions?