Murder in London

[Tribesman]

what a nut:nope:

http://www.itv.com/news/

[Gerald]

Link prob.:hmmm:

[desertstriker]

same here

[bertieck476]

Its down as probably overloaded, link recently put on bbc, I got on it but only the still, the video would not work, the still image was allegedly one of the attackers, hands very heavily bloodied holding meat cleaver type knife and a large bladed knife.

After this sickening cowardly attack they waited around for the police to arrive and then advanced towards them in a violent manner and they were both shot, one of them apparently also had a handgun.

Both of the attackers now in hospital one of which is seriously injured.

[Oberon]

C'est la guerre.

[bertieck476]

C'est la guerre.

Ah; but its not, they only attack those unable to defend themselves.

[Tribesman]

Link prob.:hmmm:

Sorry, one news source had footage of the murderers ranting and it seems everyone linked to it and crashed the site.

Another source but without the footage...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303

[Oberon]

Ah; but its not, they only attack those unable to defend themselves.

Because we have never killed anyone who didn't have a gun in their hand...

[Gerald]

Sorry, one news source had footage of the murderers ranting and it seems everyone linked to it and crashed the site.

Another source but without the footage...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303 Thanks!

[bertieck476]

Because we have never killed anyone who didn't have a gun in their hand...

Are you suggesting that its ok to run someone down with a car, then while they are incapacitated you hack them up and behead them ??

[Jimbuna]

what a nut:nope:

http://www.itv.com/news/

Agreed and a justifiable ending if early reports of their actions against the Police are true.

[Oberon]

Are you suggesting that its ok to run someone down with a car, then while they are incapacitated you hack them up and behead them ??

It's not particularly pleasant, no, but it's also not particularly pleasant to have a 500lb bomb land on your house.

Still, it's a good day for the English Defence League, UKIP and BNP, they will be rubbing their hands in glee. :yep:

[Stealhead]

It's not particularly pleasant, no, but it's also not particularly pleasant to have a 500lb bomb land on your house.

Still, it's a good day for the English Defence League, UKIP and BNP, they will be rubbing their hands in glee. :yep:

I have a sneaking suspicion that neither of the two attackers ever had a 500 pound bomb land on their house though making your first point a bit invalid.

[mookiemookie]

Absolutely bizarre. My heart goes out to the family of that poor soldier.

[Oberon]

I have a sneaking suspicion that neither of the two attackers ever had a 500 pound bomb land on their house though making your first point a bit invalid.

Probably.
I shouldn't have made comments in this thread anyway. I'll stop now.

[Rockstar]

Murder in London, right. But what is the motive? According to the troubled youth and his accomplice "We want to start a war in London tonight." In the name of Allah of course. But nothing to worry about as its just another isolated incident.


Btw major kudos goes out to Ingrid Loyau-Kennett. She's one brave woman :salute:

[Red October1984]

I just saw the coverage of this on CNN.

The first problem is that most English cops don't even carry guns. I know that the people aren't allowed to have guns.

I'm also reading on Wikipedia about gun incidents with British Police... It seems that they are very very very very trigger happy....They open fire before they know for sure, seems like. Like the time where Jean Charles de Menezes was shot 7 times in the back of the head because they mistook him for a bombing suspect. Maybe I'm only seeing one side of this. It's an issue for the British people to decide on.


The only thing they could do was perfectly capture the man, the blood, the weapons and the confession on camera. Gee, nobody thought "Let's tackle the guy?" or anything like that? :hmph:

[Stealhead]

You should look up the number of firearms incidents involving law enforcement in the US.Be careful looking up things on Wikipedia not every article on there is bias free.

And nine fatal incidents in 30 years that is very low a large city such as New York has that many in two or three years with about the same number of armed officers.They did seem to say that police had done nothing wrong in every case but that tends to be the case in the US as well.The English tally does not include incidents in Norther Ireland but that is an entire ball of yarn all together.

My understanding is that the men had both a firearm and a machete style weapon if someone had already used these weapons and still had them in their possession and did not comply with me I'd blow their head off too who they had killed would not be relevant either.Someone brandishing any edged weapon is a lethal threat if they are within 25 feet of you.A person brandishing an edged weapon and also not complying and also assaulted a person places them selves at the top of the use of force pyramid.

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/forcet_zps5fc29b30.png (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/datsun260zyojimbo/media/forcet_zps5fc29b30.png.html)

[Red October1984]

You should look up the number of firearms incidents involving law enforcement in the US.Be careful looking up things on Wikipedia not every article on there is bias free.

I don't even want to know how many American Law Enforcement gun incidents happen. There was one at my local county Sheriff's Office a while back. This female cop was at this person's house. She suddenly "feels threatened" by the citizen's pet Chihuahua so she pulls out her pistol. She fired once, only wounding the pet. She had to continue firing to finish the job...

They took her to court and she eventually ended up "resigning."

My understanding is that the men had both a firearm and a machete style weapon if someone had already used these weapons and still had them in their possession and did not comply with me I'd blow their head off too who they had killed would not be relevant either.Someone brandishing any edged weapon is a lethal threat if they are within 25 feet of you.A person brandishing an edged weapon and also not complying and also assaulted a person places themselves at the top of the use of force pyramid.

Agree. If it were me, (if I was old enough to have a CCW) I'd defend somebody under attack. There is a bill in the Missouri congress that will lower the CCW age to 19 among other things.... :know: (That could be good or bad) I'm not crazy or anything like that....but I'd like to be able to carry a weapon with me in dangerous areas. No, these aren't just comments from "that american teenager who wants to have a gun to feel cool." I don't want to be a victim or a statistic. I'd rather have it and not use it than not have it and need it.

[Tribesman]

Still, it's a good day for the English Defence League, UKIP and BNP, they will be rubbing their hands in glee. :yep:
The EDL unsurprisingly showed themselves for what they are last night.

[Tribesman]

Agree. If it were me, (if I was old enough to have a CCW) I'd defend somebody under attack.
Remember the incident with Gifford?

[Jimbuna]

I just saw the coverage of this on CNN.

The first problem is that most English cops don't even carry guns. I know that the people aren't allowed to have guns.

I'm also reading on Wikipedia about gun incidents with British Police... It seems that they are very very very very trigger happy....They open fire before they know for sure, seems like. Like the time where Jean Charles de Menezes was shot 7 times in the back of the head because they mistook him for a bombing suspect. Maybe I'm only seeing one side of this. It's an issue for the British people to decide on.


The only thing they could do was perfectly capture the man, the blood, the weapons and the confession on camera. Gee, nobody thought "Let's tackle the guy?" or anything like that? :hmph:

When I read these comments and think of an appropriate response I say to myself "No, don't get involved...it's not really necessary".

Stealhead in his immediate response just about sums it up more professionally than I might have.

[BossMark]

I am at a loss for words or words that I cant use on these forums about what I think to those 2 bastards who did this horrific attack :nope:

[Skybird]

Allahu akbar.

[MH]

Allah yahtak.

[STEED]

One thing I have noticed when such acts are carried out Western Muslim spokespersons keep saying Islam is a peaceful religion but are they taking that view point from the lay back flabby westerner? As clearly the Eastern view point is rather the opposite.

[BossMark]

One thing I have noticed when such acts are carried out Western Muslim spokespersons keep saying Islam is a peaceful religion but are they taking that view point from the lay back flabby westerner? As clearly the Eastern view point is rather the opposite.

Islam is about as peaceful as Jimmy Savile in a children's hospital.

[Armistead]

One of these days we'll admit Islam isn't a religion of peace, but a religion of hate, bias and murder.

[Skybird]

One thing I have noticed when such acts are carried out Western Muslim spokespersons keep saying Islam is a peaceful religion but are they taking that view point from the lay back flabby westerner?

As long as this precious silent majority of peaceful, tolerant, integrating Muslims remains silent and inactive in the face of hate preachers and selfish lobbyists and clergymen and only pay lip confessions but no enforcing actions to isolate them and get rid of them and throw them out and deny them to hide behind the passive "majority" that is claimed - only claimed! - to disagree with them;

as long as they pay lip confessions at best in condemning such acts of intolerance hate, violence or violence against women and girls, then return to their passivity and inactivity again;

as long as their first and only worry - when the crime statistics show how overrepresented by several factors Muslim migrants are in many branches of crime statistics: from locals-mobbing to rape, from street violence to theft - is to call it "racism" and "offence" and that organising statistics in such a way that they allow to identify which groups of persons are represented to what degree in statistical categories (which is an substantial information in crime statistics I would say: to learn and make known the identities and origin of somebody committing serious crimes);

as long as galloping antisemitic racism is typical for overwhelming majorities of them, leading the vast majority of them to behavior and statements making it clear they would not even live door to door with a Jew in a European country, and to significant levels also do not wish to have much to do with the local population of their hosting nation;

as long as they allow the above mentioned and acting terrorists alike to define the image of their precious peaceful, tolerant ideology with their hate and violence and intolerance;

as long as they do not actively engage in banning, isolating, making known and throwing out "extremists" and criminal integration-refusers in their middle, instead allow their leaders to blackmail the state until it agrees to warn "community leaders" hours in advance before they arrest Muslim criminals or extremists or suspects;

as long as third- and fourth-generation offspring from immigrant families become more conservative and religious than their grandparents have ever been;

as long as they remain silent and shut up over the immense amounts of enforced marriages, violence against wifes and daughters, female circumcision, denial of rights to women, sharia parallel law in Western states:

as long as all this^ is so, I think your point does not really matter. Since fourty years and more we wait now that they integrate, reform Islam, and by majority truly "arrive" in their new "homes" and learn the rules. Instead, all we got in these years is bullying, hate, demanding ever more, violence, and a growing willingness amongst the young to even use force to turn the West Islamic and destroy our countries and their constitutional basis.

Arguments there have been enough : fourty years and more. Negotiations there have been enough: fourty years and more. Display of our good willingness and tolerance and patience there have been enough: fourty years and more. Giving in to their demands while they refuse reciprocity in their acting, both in their original home countries and in the West: we have done it long enough, since over fourty years. It'S time to get out the big club and show it to them and tell them very clearly and without any further negotiating: either you now fall into line and learn our rules and fully embrace them, or you pack your things and get the hell out of Europe, and America.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm not crazy or anything like that...
You know that's the first thing the crazy people always say... :O:

As for the rest, I understand your fears and feelings on the subject.

[Tribesman]

So he isn't a muslim immigrant then.
He is british born church going christian who recently converted and joined up with Anjem Choudray and his couple of dozen muppets.
Kinda makes all this blah blah Muslim immigrants stuff into pure nonsense doesn't it.

[Herr-Berbunch]

The first problem is that most English cops don't even carry guns. I know that the people aren't allowed to have guns.

I'm also reading on Wikipedia about gun incidents with British Police... It seems that they are very very very very trigger happy....They open fire before they know for sure, seems like.


Sorry, and you live where? Oh, in that country where one man can kill as many in one day as the British Police have done (rightly or wrongly) in over 30 years.

In just one month this year (March, according to your favourite Wiki) there have been 25 fatal shootings in the US by police, January was 42 - Happy New Year! By Contrast February was a good month, only 15. :doh:

Saying the British Police are very, very, very, very trigger happy is way off the mark, I'm sure even if you included data from Northern Ireland it would still be way below that of your good ol' law enforcement officers - and I'm not saying that yours are very, very, very, very trigger happy, just moreso.

[BossMark]

@Red October1984
Lets look at it like this if some lunatic terrorist scum are coming at you with weapons drawn and it comes down to you or the vile evil terrorist scum it would be very hard not to shoot the bastard wouldn't it. And that's not being trigger happy its preserving your own life as well as others.

[Skybird]

Info on the identity of the two suspects gets reported. One is a Nigerian with British passport, coming from a devout Christian family but then converted to Islam. The other so far is not being mentioned. Both are known to the police from earlier incidents. Investigation into them showed them to be no danger. Which again shows that this kind of guys cannot be profiled. The attackers in London some years ago, did not match terrorist profiles. The attackers in Madrid years ago also did not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468

[Red October1984]

@Red October1984
Lets look at it like this if some lunatic terrorist scum are coming at you with weapons drawn and it comes down to you or the vile evil terrorist scum it would be very hard not to shoot the bastard wouldn't it. And that's not being trigger happy its preserving your own life as well as others.

Sorry, and you live where? Oh, in that country where one man can kill as many in one day as the British Police have done (rightly or wrongly) in over 30 years.

In just one month this year (March, according to your favourite Wiki) there have been 25 fatal shootings in the US by police, January was 42 - Happy New Year! By Contrast February was a good month, only 15. :doh:

Saying the British Police are very, very, very, very trigger happy is way off the mark, I'm sure even if you included data from Northern Ireland it would still be way below that of your good ol' law enforcement officers - and I'm not saying that yours are very, very, very, very trigger happy, just moreso.


Okay. Obviously what I said there was an overgeneralization based on one passage that I read from Wikipedia. I tend to do that sometimes. I know that there are tons of shooting accidents with US cops and I probably got a bit generous with the "Very" part.


I didn't think before I posted very well.

@ Jim, BossMark, Herr-Berbunch. I'm sorry about that. :oops: I didn't think.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Apology accepted on my part. :salute:

[BossMark]

Apology accepted on my part. :salute:
Same goes for me too :yep:

[mapuc]

Help me out here, and please don't answer if you're aren't 110 % sure

Today I have through several newspaper and some news channels read/heard the English prime minister Cameron saying

that the attack yesterday was a betrayal of Islam

Is that true!? Due to my question, is that I have on several pages and on some of my friends friends wall, read some part of the quran or the haddith, were it says something like this

Kill the infidel where ever you find them or something like that

If it's true then those two person only did what the quran says them to do

or??

Markus

[Armistead]

That's what makes me mad, every time we have one of these attacks, our leaders spend so much time telling us Islam is a religion of peace, etc.

[soopaman2]

That's what makes me mad, every time we have one of these attacks, our leaders spend so much time telling us Islam is a religion of peace, etc.

Same leaders that tell us anchor baby having, fence jumping Mexicans, are good for the economy, and should not be held accountable.

Maybe we should be eating our leaders, and not the Muzzies or Mexis.

At least the mexican and Muslims work, unlike our politicians...

[Stealhead]

Plenty of wars and violent actions have been performed in name of Christianity over the years.So I'd say to pick out one religion when others have equally violent histories is a bit short sighted.

That is the problem with most religions they can easily be skewed to line up with a violent agenda.

@soopaman2 Are you hungry or something?

[MH]

Today I have through several newspaper and some news channels read/heard the English prime minister Cameron saying

that the attack yesterday was a betrayal of Islam

What do you expect him to say regardless of his or anyone else's opinion on the issue.

He do not want to escalate this whole thing .

[Tribesman]

Kill the infidel where ever you find them or something like that

If it's true then those two person only did what the quran says them to do

or??

Isn't that the bit about people living in your land who have broken a treaty with you and started a war. Doesn't it then go on about not doing it if they stop because god commands forgiveness.
You can find plenty like that in the bible too.


That is the problem with most religions they can easily be skewed to line up with a violent agenda.

Its a problem as old as religion.

[Armistead]

Plenty of wars and violent actions have been performed in name of Christianity over the years.So I'd say to pick out one religion when others have equally violent histories is a bit short sighted.

That is the problem with most religions they can easily be skewed to line up with a violent agenda.

@soopaman2 Are you hungry or something?

All religions have radical aspects, but not all religions are radical, Islam is radical! No doubt Christianity was as bad for most it's history and I dread to think where it would be had not secular law became rule. I recall a pastor years ago that stated he wished he could start a "kill a queer for Christ" program. He was a known Baptist evangelist through the SE. Sure, he said it with a laugh, but who says such crap without first having the thought.

[Skybird]

Help me out here, and please don't answer if you're aren't 110 % sure

Today I have through several newspaper and some news channels read/heard the English prime minister Cameron saying

that the attack yesterday was a betrayal of Islam

Is that true!? Due to my question, is that I have on several pages and on some of my friends friends wall, read some part of the quran or the haddith, were it says something like this

Kill the infidel where ever you find them or something like that

If it's true then those two person only did what the quran says them to do

or??

Markus

If you go into newspaper'S archives and research it, you will see that after 9/11 the first thing they said was that Islam had nothing to do with it, while in some - not all: some - ME countries people were dancing. After Bali, the me3dia reproted that this was against Islam as well. When the Madrid bombing took place, concern was that Islam may be linkied to it. After the London bombing, poltiicans were fast to reiterate that this was not rep0resenting real Islam. And so on and on and on.

The motivating and convincing influence of Islamic ideology as taught in the Quran, is obvious. Netherless it is claimed that Islam does not motivate violence against Jews and infidels. Where it is clearly said in the Quran that there should be violence and discmrination of infidels and Jews until they convert to Islam, else they should be killed.

Our politicians do appeasement. We are no longer masters in our own house. Tolerance is the self-deception of the weak to make himself believe that he can afford to tolerate the superior. But to quote a Roman writer: the victors did what they could. The beaten suffered what they must.

---

It also strikes me time and again that whenever something bad is done by some primitive sucker due to Quranic motivation, it is said that the Quran is a matter of interpretation, and that one needs a cleric's explanation to understand it in the "correct" manner, and that one must read it in Arabic (!) anyway, since this holy divine truth cannot adequately expressed in our primitive Western language anyway. But the Quran is claimed to be the word of God. Is God too stupid or was he simply too drunk so that he could not express himself that clearly that man can understand beyond doubt and without a man in the middle what he means and what he is talking about? Either God is a very stupid retard indeed, or the imperfection of Quran is due to it not being the word of an almighty god.

[Stealhead]

All religions have radical aspects, but not all religions are radical, Islam is radical! No doubt Christianity was as bad for most it's history and I dread to think where it would be had not secular law became rule. I recall a pastor years ago that stated he wished he could start a "kill a queer for Christ" program. He was a known Baptist evangelist through the SE. Sure, he said it with a laugh, but who says such crap without first having the thought.


You just proved my point actually.I do not think that you realize that you did but you did....23.4% or about 1 billion humans are Muslims if the majority(hell it would not even take a majority if even 20% of Muslims where radicals) where violent radicals we would not be having this conversation right now we'd be praying towards Mecca seeing that we are not praying towards Mecca clearly displays that most Muslims are not in line with the extremists if they where they would literately overwhelm us.

[eddie]

I think they handled the whole situation just fine. I feel sorry for the family of that soldier.

Now, the UK should take that goofy cleric, that they have been spending so much money trying to deport, and let that special police unit handle him the same way. One bullet is cheaper then all those court costs,lol

[Rockstar]

That's what makes me mad, every time we have one of these attacks, our leaders spend so much time telling us Islam is a religion of peace, etc.


Well islam IS a religion of peace, there just can't be no peace until all have submitted to islam. :hmmm:


I figure what comes around goes around. Tribes in North America were probably looking at european immigrants much the same way. A few may have saw the future. But "Oh don't worry"; they said. Its just a few bad apples we can live in peace we just have to be more tolerant of them.

Oh well thats life in the fast lane. Nabulsi anyone?

[Tribesman]

Where it is clearly said in the Quran that there should be violence and discmrination of infidels and Jews until they convert to Islam, else they should be killed.

What complete and utter bollox.:doh:
I wonder where the people of the book got refuge when infidels(christian word) were getting the convert or die treatment?


I think they handled the whole situation just fine.
Yes, Boris did as good a job with his statement as the previous idiot of a mayor did after the London bombings.
I agree wholeheatedly with the second part of that line.

[Jimbuna]

@ Jim, BossMark, Herr-Berbunch. I'm sorry about that. :oops: I didn't think.

That is correct...you didn't but as long as you learn from the action then all is well :salute:

[mapuc]

I have just read a blog made by a danish politician named Naser Khader. I tell you if every muslim was like him, I'm 110% convinced that we would have peace with each other.

It's in danish and the google translate translate many of his words into...well it miss it's point(Reading and understanding what it says between the lines)

I could try

Markus

[Oberon]

I have just read a blog made by a danish politician named Naser Khader. I tell you if every muslim was like him, I'm 110% convinced that we would have peace with each other.

It's in danish and the google translate translate many of his words into...well it miss it's point(Reading and understanding what it says between the lines)

I could try

Markus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBn3HLvZZIg

[mapuc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBn3HLvZZIg

I'm not an expert on Islam, but I do believe he is right about his sayings.

Here are the last part of Naser Khader's blog

"
I know that Islam is much more than raw violence and oppression of women, but it is now such that it is these
monstrosities that dominate Islam. Muslims need to shape up before it's too late. All the violence harms Islam much more than some ridiculous drawings. Why should a few grotesque violence men sully an otherwise fine and meaningful religion with intolerance and terrorism? Are we to other Muslims really find ourselves with? No we should not!

Think about that, he who is silence, often agree. Look ahead and compared you to the world, we are all a part of it and forget the cliché
'It's not my problem'. For it may very easily be! "

And he's right. The 98 % af the good Muslim needs to tell those extremist to go and fly a kite(with our help if needed)

Markus

[Skybird]

I know that Islam is much more than raw violence and oppression of women, but it is now such that it is these monstrosities that dominate Islam.

"Now"...? When has it ever been different froim Muhammad's days on?

Why should a few grotesque violence men sully an otherwise fine and meaningful religion with intolerance and terrorism?

Ehem, just a guess - maybe becasue it is the will of God that thy do so, his revelation to be read in the Quran - could that be, maybe...?

And when considering the massive racism present in Quran as well as in all Islamic history, the antisemitism that is rooting so deep in islam that you would reach the centre of the Earth if you follow it to the very tip of it, when you think of the barbaric suppression of women and the denial of basic rights for them that gets also accused, and demanded, by scripture, the explicit descriptions of discriminating infidels to make them feel suffering and experiencing inferiority due to their resistence to Allah, then I wonder what could be meant by "an otherwise fine and meaningful religion".

No , Mr Khader, by the posted excerpts I do not buy what you have to say in them. Cannot say whether you are just deceiving us and yourself over the dark and inhumane nature of Islam, or whether you indeed defend the values that you maybe imply in your vision as hinted at in these quotes and that then would qualify you as something more valuable indeed than just a blind barbar. But then I would ask you to have the graciousness and admit that the vision that you may have on mind is valuable maybe indeed - but has nothing to do with the message of Islam. Have the greatness, therefore, and leave your loyalty to this darkness that Islam is behind. To put it in Pat Condell's words: "there is too much at stake to be polite anymore, and there is too much at stake to be afraid anymore." And as long as Muslims stick to their perceived superiority as earning them the right for special status, and as long as they insist on the Quran being the perfect and infallible word of God, any declaration of how Islam could be reformed and how beautiful it really could be if only the dark and shabby bits in it would not spoil the impression so fundamentally, are just hot air and narcissistic babbling lacking any real substance.

Not directed against you, mapuc, I have heard such talking like quoted by you just some times too often now as if I would easily believe in it anymore. There is a reason why not any attempted reformist but conservative Islam is spreading in the world currently. The four gospels obviously are not the word of God, but man's attempt to describe the biography of claimed God'S son - that opened the option to put up questions on interpretation, and asking for validity, and in general: reflect about it. The Quran is not seen by Muslims as man'S work, but the original revelation of God's word, not man's description of it, but the original word by God himself. That is what puts it beyond reforms by humans. We know for sure that historically the Quran of course is man-made, and that many different versions of it existed in the early three centuries - but for Muslims, this is invalid and also uninteresting, for as a believer you must not know, but can simply chose to believe different. It's all heavenly magic, you know.

[Armistead]

You just proved my point actually.I do not think that you realize that you did but you did....23.4% or about 1 billion humans are Muslims if the majority(hell it would not even take a majority if even 20% of Muslims where radicals) where violent radicals we would not be having this conversation right now we'd be praying towards Mecca seeing that we are not praying towards Mecca clearly displays that most Muslims are not in line with the extremists if they where they would literately overwhelm us.

The fact is radical Islam has overwhelmed many parts of the world, from the Mid-East, Africa, parts of Eastern Europe. It's the uneducated poor man's religion, ran by smarter educated leaders. Sure, there is a softer brand of Islam in secular nations.

I don't agree if all of Islam went radical we would all be praying to Mecca.
If you saw Islam go totally radical in America, acts of random terror, the American people wouldn't wait for the government to solve the problem, nor would most of the cultured nations of the world. If anything, it would lead to the extinction of Islam.

[BossMark]

Now, the UK should take that goofy cleric, that they have been spending so much money trying to deport, and let that special police unit handle him the same way. One bullet is cheaper then all those court costs,lol
Yes a lot easier and cheaper simply to put a bullet in its head :yep:

[BossMark]

A BBC newsreader said last night "We need to say the man pictured in that VT is one of the alleged attackers in the Woolwich attack on a British solider"

Yes it's important we don't jump to any conclusions that the guy holding a machete covered in blood telling us why he did it is guilty.

[Red October1984]

A BBC newsreader said last night "We need to say the man pictured in that VT is one of the alleged attackers in the Woolwich attack on a British solider"

Yes it's important we don't jump to any conclusions that the guy holding a machete covered in blood telling us why he did it is guilty.

:rotfl2:

I hate it when they say stuff like that. If we had the actual mauling on tape they'd say the same....

And then they'd have to confirm that it was the same guy. :dead:

[Jimbuna]

These are the two 'suspects'...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22636624

I believe two 29 year olds (a male and a female) have also been arrested on the grounds of conspiracy to commit murder...

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-23/two-29-year-olds-in-custody-at-london-police-station/

[kranz]

Just watched a short footage ( in Polish only :<) on how CNN and some British station cut out fragments in which the black guy talks about Koran, Islam and his inspirations. :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

He may as well have been spouting off about his personal future...he no longer has one of any real significance :03:

[BossMark]

He may as well have been spouting off about his personal future...he no longer has one of any real significance :03:
The only future this piece of crap as, is staring at four walls for the rest of his evil life.
But he and his mate should be put on a platform which as a trap door and a bit of rope.

[Herr-Berbunch]

A 29-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to murder under PACE.
A 29-year-old woman was arrested at residential address in south London on suspicion of conspiracy to murder under PACE.
They both remain in custody at a south London police station.
– Metropolitan Police

Isn't every arrest under/due to PACE? :hmm2:

Or is the conspriacy to murder under PACE?

I think some Met spokesperson needs an interview without coffee with his/her boss.

[BossMark]

Wife thought Woolwich soldier would 'be safe in UK'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22654220


This is really heart breaking...............

[Tribesman]

Wife thought Woolwich soldier would 'be safe in UK'

Yet as coincidence happens the murder was on the same day they finally made an arrest for an earlier murder of British army bandmen in London.

[Stealhead]

The fact is radical Islam has overwhelmed many parts of the world, from the Mid-East, Africa, parts of Eastern Europe.


I don't agree if all of Islam went radical we would all be praying to Mecca.
If you saw Islam go totally radical in America, acts of random terror, the American people wouldn't wait for the government to solve the problem, nor would most of the cultured nations of the world. If anything, it would lead to the extinction of Islam.


On your first part I disagree if radical Islam where the majority control in these regions then you would not see the violence and unrest caused by extremist groups.The entire reason these regions see this problem is because the extremists are not in the majority and they are trying to use terror to force other Muslims to have fear and agree with the extremists.Most of the problems in these regions the root cause is poor government more so than religion.Radical Islam is certainly a problem in some regions but in very few has it overwhelmed and it never will overwhelm because it is a fringe movement.

Look at Egypt for example much of the population is displeased with the Muslim Brotherhood.Al-Qaeda for example they have killed more Shiite Muslims than they have any other group of people.They hate Muslims that do not agree with their views as much as if not more than any other group.

On your second point your just are a bit over confident if the majority of Muslims where extremists they would be able to take total control over many regions and have enough manpower that resorting to terrorist acts would not be necessary.They would simply overwhelm those that disagree.

Discussing the topic further is a moot point I'd say as you are not going to convince me on your views and I'm not going to convince you on mine.

[Jimbuna]

Isn't every arrest under/due to PACE? :hmm2:

Or is the conspriacy to murder under PACE?

I think some Met spokesperson needs an interview without coffee with his/her boss.

Everything was covered under judges Rules (reading of rights at time of arrest etc.)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/307480/Judges-Rules

until superseded by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act in 1984.

https://www.gov.uk/police-and-criminal-evidence-act-1984-pace-codes-of-practice

[Onkel Neal]

http://i2.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article1907185.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Ministry-of-Defence-undated-handout-photo-of-Drummer-Lee-Rigby-1907185.jpg

Rest in peace, young man. These beasts will get the full weight of British justice soon.

[Tchocky]

Reports saying one of them was approached by MI5 to be a double agent. Hmm.

[Skybird]

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2013/05/23/9072/

Nicely said, though the irony may be a bit heavy on those with already sore sensibility.

[Tribesman]

Nicely said
Actually it is just the usual expected rubbish.
Unfortnately for you the author has chosen to start with an example which can in no way supports his claim.
Then again when you are posting stuff from a person who defends "religious" genocidal maniacs and is one of Anders Breiviks favourites it doesn't come as any surprise:nope:

Hey good news, his friend who ran the concentration camps got his jail term reduced to only 40 years

[Oberon]

Where was the facebook rage, the copy and paste photographs and memes that are circulating now when these guys were killed in the UK?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2013/1/15/1358255104563/Sappers-Patrick-Azimkar-a-008.jpg

Where were the pictures calling for all Catholic Irish to be deported from the UK? Where was the sudden spike in hate-crimes against Irish people or against Catholics? Where was the four day rolling news coverage?

[Tchocky]

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2013/05/23/9072/

Nicely said, though the irony may be a bit heavy on those with already sore sensibility.


Rubbish. Intellectually lazy and logically backward rubbish.

Loath to imply a Muslim connection, he initially refused to use the word “terrorism.
So very stupid.

Because authority figures in the earliest stages of reaction don't immediately blame the entire Muslim world (evidence nonwithstanding) - they are of course Jihadophiles.

[Tribesman]

Oberon, try the national front and the BNP for that coverage.:03:

And believe me, and isn't very "pleasant" being Irish in the UK after any of those terrorist attacks.

[STEED]

Round up all the extreme muslims & right wing head bangers and arm them to the teeth and lock them in a warehouse. I'm sure they will wipe each other out, sorted.

[Oberon]

Oberon, try the national front and the BNP for that coverage.:03:

And believe me, and isn't very "pleasant" being Irish in the UK after any of those terrorist attacks.

I can well believe, but it gets so much less media coverage at all levels than this latest incident. Still, ignorance is ignorance, be it directed at people of any descent or religion.

[BossMark]

Round up all the extreme muslims & right wing head bangers and arm them to the teeth and lock them in a warehouse. I'm sure they will wipe each other out, sorted.
Then if there's any survivors I bags it to finish them :D

[STEED]

Then if there's any survivors I bags it to finish them :D

I'm sure these clowns will wipe each other out:rotfl2:

[Skybird]

Rubbish. Intellectually lazy and logically backward rubbish.


So very stupid.
No. Just not left-leaning and PC enough for your taste.

[Armistead]

Round up all the extreme muslims & right wing head bangers and arm them to the teeth and lock them in a warehouse. I'm sure they will wipe each other out, sorted.

Not enough room. I say we find a big island, put all radicals, gangs, murderers, etc on it. Give them basic needs and let them wage war or make peace with one another.

But then again........that would be immoral..

[Tribesman]

No. Just not left-leaning and PC enough for your taste.
No, you linked to proven hate filled bigot with a track record of actively supporting the actual practice of genocide.
So if people dedicated to mass murder are now your idea of "not left leaning and politicly correct enough" then its just a further illustration of how far off the cliff of insanity you have gone with your hatred.:nope:

[Jimbuna]

Rest in peace, young man. These beasts will get the full weight of British justice soon.

Rgr that.

~SALUTE~

[eddie]

Well, here we go, the copycat attacks are spreading already! This time a French soldier on duty is stabbed in the neck. But he will survive. This kind of crap is going to start a backlash, going to get nasty too I bet.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/25/18492563-french-soldier-stabbed-on-paris-street?lite

[BossMark]

Well, here we go, the copycat attacks are spreading already! This time a French soldier on duty is stabbed in the neck. But he will survive. This kind of crap is going to start a backlash, going to get nasty too I bet.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/25/18492563-french-soldier-stabbed-on-paris-street?lite
Yes mate its going to kick off big style and am surprised that it hasn't already :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

Yes mate its going to kick off big style and am surprised that it hasn't already :hmmm:
They had attackson soldiers in France last year. It didn't "kick off big style".

[BossMark]

They had attackson soldiers in France last year. It didn't "kick off big style".
Maybe it wont in France but I think it could in England.
http://news.sky.com/story/1095493/woolwich-rise-in-attacks-on-muslims

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully things will calm down soon...for everyone's sake.

[Tribesman]

Maybe it wont in France but I think it could in England.

You really think that bunch of football hooligans are going to do something other than what they normally do?
Don't you think their very predictable behavior will rapidly marginalise them from the genuine outrage the population is feeling?

They do need to work on their chanting though, they can't quite seem to get the old anti Irish chant reworked to fit neatly into an anti muslim one. :03:

[Tchocky]

No. Just not left-leaning and PC enough for your taste.


Sure. Guess I also suffer from this made-up disease, and the real problem is in my head.

Not the rambling idiocy and invented conclusions of this writer. No no, he's all fine.

Give it a rest, SKybird.

[Skybird]

Sure. Guess I also suffer from this made-up disease, and the real problem is in my head.

Not the rambling idiocy and invented conclusions of this writer. No no, he's all fine.

Give it a rest, SKybird.

No, nothing is fine, but much is PC these days. And what that term means, different to your recent attempt to ignore its meaning nowadays, is this: a general tendency for chatting-up in the use of language to curry favour with the contemporary political Zeitgeist, and claiming dominance and superiority in opinion forming and opinion influencing. Moral dogmatism defines what is correct to think and to say why these contents are totally opportunistic and often disconnected from the real meaning of words and terms, and PC works as a tactic by which to morally brandmark differing or opposing views no matter their content and outcast them not by argument, but by mere opportunistic moralizing. In most Western countries this process can fluidly transform into legally sanctioned opinion prohibition and censorship, and can also lead to character assassination without needing to care for the relevance or irrelevance of that person's opinion and argument - it is not the deciding ctageroy by which to judge him, but what decides is that he is not in line with the wanted dominant opinion dogma. Examples for this witchhunting for non-complying opinions are climate and environmental debates, fundamentalist feminism now being disguised as "genderism", wealth distribution declared as social solidarity, criticism of Islam and Islamic passivity in the face of Islamic terror labeled as Islamophobia, rejection of current immigration policies being called "racism", opposition to the Euro being called "war-mongering", and refusing gay marriages for sociological arguments being called "discrimination".

As one example:
LINK: political correctness in Germany (NBC) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8c0jgIvRuE)

With the above being in English, this is Henryk Broder in German on the term PC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=hL9EDW3qnLg&NR=1

And originally from the Boston Herald, on the London murder:
http://www.gopusa.com/freshink/2013/05/25/call-it-what-it-is/


Call it what it is - stop political correctness

What would help a lot right now, as the chilling reality of savagery engulfs us, would be a cultural green light to begin calling evil what it is, to begin calling it by its name, to stop dancing around demographics because of the fear someone, somewhere will take offense.

There is always someone, somewhere looking for a reason to be offended. Jesse Jackson has fashioned a lucrative career out of being perpetually peeved. It works if you know how to play the game.

And one of the reasons it works is that too many people who ought to know better allow themselves to be characterized as racists, xenophobes, homophobes, anti-Semites; it's a long list.

It's getting to a point where, even when you know there's no hatred in your heart, you find yourself picking words the way a shopper picks tomatoes, looking for just the right ones, casting questionable ones aside.

This has been going on a long time.

Back in 1979, when the late Darryl Williams, then 15, was sentenced to live as a quadriplegic by a lowlife who shot him on the sidelines of a football game in Charlestown, this city refused to declare it a hate crime, evidence notwithstanding, fearful of possible ramifications in those turbulent days of anti-busing frenzy.

Misguided sensitivity trumped common sense, which it's still doing today as civilized society tries to find ways to acknowledge we face a menacing foe while giving no offense to anyone wearing a burqa, hijab or turban.

It shouldn't have to be pointed out that entire groups are not responsible for barbarians in their midst, but it also should not be uncomfortable to call those barbarians by their names, whether it's in response to placing bombs at the feet of unsuspecting innocents, or the beheading of a young British soldier in broad daylight on a London street.

With their hands covered in that soldier's blood, those self-proclaimed jihadists displayed their weapons to horrified onlookers, as one of them was heard to vow, "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. You people will never be safe."

You people? Yes. Us, or the "infidels" as these madmen prefer to call anyone who doesn't subscribe to the insanity of their toxic faith.

Remember, the last words of the hijackers who flew into the World Trade Center were, "All praise to Allah!"

Political correctness? Please.

If ever there was a time to deal with facts, not feelings, it's now.

No offense to Allah, but God help us if we don't wake up.


So, Tchocky, it is guys like you who have to give it a rest - and who have to stop stop eroding the fundaments of our freedom. Whether you mean it well or not, means nothing. What you help to do in effect in the world is what counts. And that effects cost us dearly and destroy what is the most precious for us - even when people are not yet aware of it because they never had to live without it and thus take it for granted and deal it carelessly away. The damage is already too huge and there is too much at stake to be polite anymore, to be hesitant anymore, to be obedient anymore. Who wants to defend the heritage of the enlightenment, the values of humanism, and freedom, must be intolerant today.

[Tribesman]

It shouldn't have to be pointed out that entire groups are not responsible for barbarians in their midst, but it also should not be uncomfortable to call those barbarians by their names
And there you see the truth of the nonsense, the main complaints tend to be rooted with people who do want to blame entire groups.

You people? Yes. Us, or the "infidels" as these madmen prefer to call anyone who doesn't subscribe to the insanity of their toxic faith.

"infidels". Which also includes most muslims as far as these nuts are concerned, so the cry of the "its the muslims" paints with such a broad brush it covers millions of people these nuts are aiming to murder.
So thats the same as blaming the victim isn't it.:hmmm:

It does look like the trend of " :wah::wah::wah:political correctness:wah::wah::wah: " moaning is in general just a trend of "I am a bigot who is too lazy or dumb to try and make my attempts at thought seem like they make sense"

[MH]

@Skybird you are banging your head on brick wall here.

A agree that there is a lot of PC going on and i wonder if it is the issue of fear of the people in question or also fear that open debate or calling some crimes by their name might lead to reactions style Norway in some extreme situation.

It my opinion it is mix of both - politicians are afraid it might blow up in their faces.

I also agree there is too much passiveness regarding those issue within the Muslim communities.
From my experience of talking with people they are often ideologically between rock and a hard place when it comes to politics so they prefer to keep silent.
Add to this the confusion and usual stuff they see from satellite TV and that's it.
Total eclipse.

Besides i don't know what your real deal is.
You have steered the pot a lot on this forum it seems so anything you say will be used against you lol.
That is also the beauty when it comes to all those PC issues ....sometimes it is very important who expresses them before people are ready to consider them.

[Skybird]

@Skybird you are banging your head on brick wall here.

You have steered the pot a lot on this forum it seems so anything you say will be used against you lol.


Yes to both, and not just here, but in real life as well. Meeting one person understanding the things I talk about costs me enduring ten people who call me a Nazi, a Capitalist, an Islamophobic, a Homophobic, a Whateverphobe. It'S just that the political system is utterly useless by now, and I do not see in value in writing letters to criminally selfish and corrupted politicians and parties who profiot from leaving things as they are, or to meet a demonstration on the street and yell out loud slogans and paroles. Talking vis a vis to somebody is my way of being a zoon politicon, I only see chances in a swing-around coming from bottom to top, not the other way around, and so I am being confronting in this forum, like I am in real life on certain issues as well.

There is a slow shift, however, at least in German, but I think in Engölish as well, there is a mounting wave of literature being released since 3 or 4 years, on all these issues, that challenge the genderism-brigades and the politically correct moral apostles and the world saviors and the Greens. I could provide a list of (German) literature on all these issues for anyone being interested, things I have read myself and do not recommend blindly. With genderism (=fundamentalist feminism), Islam and the EU still being on my radar, my major hobby currently is on money, economy, and classical libertarianism (in US), which in Europe is called simply classical liberalism (with that in America beeing used for socialism). But in principle, European liberalism and American libertarianism (since the 70s) mean the same thing, and European socialism and American liberalism means the same. In the end I do not care where totalitarianism is coming from: from Islam or politics, and I do not care whether collectivism is coming from socialism/communism or fascism - its all the same poison to me. Von Mises showed in an analysis by him that of the ten points in Marx' communist manifest, 8 points had been realised in full in the Nazis' Third Reich. Communists and Fascists/Nazis are so very close to each other, both hate to see that. Or being told.

I just do not want to be guilty of having been silent all my life long in the face of things going terribly wrong. At least I want to say that, known people or foreign people, I spoke out against things at every opportunity I had when facing people raising the critical issues. Both on the web. And in real life.

And sometimes, evben if it is only sometimes, I am successful and "convert" somebody. That is much more worth than going to a stupid general election that is just an alibi for the state - and leave it to that.

[Oberon]

So what's the difference between that and an extremist Imam? :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

So what's the difference between that and an extremist Imam? :hmmm:
You have hit the nail on the head there Oberon.
I mean seriously, when you link to a "religious" extremist nutcase that even the crazies at jihadwatch distance themselves from it does suggest that you are working on the same mental level as someone like Anjem Choudray.

[eddie]

Well, the killer was a hero according to this jerk that was kicked out of the UK sometime ago.:nope:

http://news.msn.com/world/uk-attacker-called-courageous-by-exiled-cleric

[Jimbuna]

Well, the killer was a hero according to this jerk that was kicked out of the UK sometime ago.:nope:

http://news.msn.com/world/uk-attacker-called-courageous-by-exiled-cleric

A worthy target for a drone strike imo :yeah:

[eddie]

I agree Jim!:up:

[Skybird]

Muslims Must Reject Jihad

If the last 2 decades of Islamic immigration have taught us anything in the West, it’s that tolerance is like salt: it’s necessary and beneficial but too much of it will kill you. We’re forced to learn this lesson, it seems, after every violent Islamic atrocity. And we learned it again, last week, when a serving British soldier was murdered in the street by 2 Islamic barbarians – one of whom claimed that they were forced to do this terrible thing by the Koran, which he then quoted as justification.

I couldn’t help noticing that this very important and relevant piece of information was carefully left out of all the news reports, as if it really didn’t matter. Instead, we were fed the usual blizzard of the usual platitudes from the usual suspects like the Muslim Council of Britain but, crucially, we heard no rejection by any Muslim of the Islamic scripturally-mandated doctrine of violent, armed, Jihad; which is the actual problem here.

Islam endorses armed Jihad. It is a religion of violence and terror. Allah says so and everybody knows how ‘akbar’ he is because we hear about it whenever some innocent person is murdered in the name of his religion. We should not be expected to ignore the violence and hatred in Islamic teachings, simply to avoid offending moderate Muslims. If they were really that moderate, they would face up to what their religion teaches and disown it. Instead, they prefer to dissemble and equivocate and say it’s got nothing to do with Islam but we can all read and we know that’s a lie and that last week’s murder was all about Islam from start to finish and from top to bottom. It was written right through it like a stick of seaside rock: I S L A M spells Jihad. And, by the way, please no more garbage about Jihad being a journey. It’s a journey alright . . . into mental illness . . . and we’re not going along for the ride.

If the British police were as quick to arrest Islamic bigots as they are ordinary citizens who post offensive messages on Twitter, this disgusting murder would never have happened. One of these savages was known to police and had already committed a prosecutable offense but, for reasons best known to themselves, they chose to ignore him until he committed this murder. Then we saw swift and decisive action as people were arrested for posting offensive — not libelous — messages on Twitter and an 85 year-old woman was arrested and held in police custody for shouting outside a mosque. In a just and sane society, the officers who made those arrests would themselves be arrested and charged with wasting police time.

Meanwhile, media darling Andy Choudary is free to preach his message of hatred all day long while enjoying police protection as well as generous state benefits. He gets paid more for attacking and insulting our values than our soldiers get for defending them. And it’s to our country’s eternal shame that nobody is the least bit surprised. Of course, it’s not just soldiers, now, who need to watch their backs in Britain because these 2 savages also told us that nobody here is safe.

We’re all to blame, apparetly, for their mental illness. We’re all oppressors of Islam. We’re all invaders and crusaders and God knows what else. But perish the thought that all Muslims should be to blame for the violence endorsed by their religion and repeatedly carried out in its name. No, they’re not even to blame for the hate-stirring bigots who preach in their mosques without a murmur of protest. That’s got nothing to do with them. Instead, anyone who points out the violent nature of Islamic teachings is automatically accused of stirring up hatred when, in fact, they’re responding to hatred that has already been well and truly stirred up, incubated, nurtured and fed by Islamic bigots in mosques and universities and by the government and police’s mealy-mouthed, multi-culti, cowardice and dishonesty in dealing with them.

We can do something about universities, maybe, but only Muslims can affect what happens in mosques because nobody else goes in there. If a mosque is allowing people to preach hatred and violence on its premises, then everyone who attends that mosque and who doesn’t protest about it is culpable. I know very well that if I attended a meeting and somebody was advocating death to anyone from the platform, I would have plenty to say about it. And I wouldn’t care how sacred the space was.

We keep hearing about an anti-Muslim backlash in the wake of this atrocity, as if Muslims are somehow the real victims. They’re not. What we need is a Muslim backlash and we need it now. You may be a moderate peaceful Muslim but there’s nothing moderate or peaceful about your religion. And you know it. The bigots who preach in your mosques, who take sustenance from your religion, are hiding behind you. And your silence is helping them to do it. If your mosque is letting anyone preach hatred and violence on its premises, you have a duty to call the police. And the police have a duty to take off their politically correct tinted glasses, to go into that mosque (without removing their shoes) and arrest that person. Anything less than this and you’re on the wrong side. And make no mistake: this is the moment to take sides and to show that you are taking sides.

Loyalty to the Ummah is no longer an option because these 2 murdering scumbags are part of the ummah, along with all the other murdering scumbags that your religion produces by the thousands. And it is your religion that produces these people. They have not perverted it. They are following, to the letter, the Islamic doctrine of violent, armed, Jihad. All you people who claim to speak for all Muslims – you self-appointed community leaders with your bland empty platitudes and crocodile tears; you Muslim politicians and Muslim journalists in the liberal media who deal in evasion and excuses – this murder is on your shoulders unless you, personally and publicly, reject the Islamic doctrine of armed Jihad. No equivocation, No ifs, buts or maybes. We don’t want to hear that this has nothing to do with Islam because that’s a brazen insult to our intelligence. We want a clear, categorical, public, rejection of the Islamic doctrine of armed Jihad. Anything less than this and we will know once and for all that you are complicit and that you are, and always have been, on the wrong side.

by Pat Condell
original video http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell
transcripted by AtheistExile.com

More transcripts to be found here: http://www.atheistexile.com/videos/pat-condell/pat-condell-video-transcripts/

[Hottentot]

Tetraodontidae

Tetraodontidae is a family of primarily marine and estuarine fish of the order Tetraodontiformes. The family includes many familiar species, which are variously called pufferfish, puffers, balloonfish, blowfish, bubblefish, globefish, swellfish, toadfish, toadies, honey toads, sugar toads, and sea squab. They are morphologically similar to the closely related porcupinefish, which have large external spines (unlike the thinner, hidden spines of Tetraodontidae, which are only visible when the fish has puffed up). The scientific name refers to the four large teeth, fused into an upper and lower plate, which are used for crushing the shells of crustaceans and mollusks, their natural prey.

Pufferfish are generally believed to be the second most poisonous vertebrates in the world, after the golden poison frog. Certain internal organs, such as liver, and sometimes the skin, are highly toxic to most animals when eaten; nevertheless, the meat of some species is considered a delicacy in Japan (as 河豚, pronounced as fugu), Korea (as bok), and China (as 河豚 hétún) when prepared by chefs who know which part is safe to eat and in what quantity.

The Tetraodontidae contain at least 120 species of puffers in 19 genera. They are most diverse in the tropics and relatively uncommon in the temperate zone and completely absent from cold waters. They are typically small to medium in size, although a few species can reach lengths of greater than 100 centimetres (39 in).

Although most species live in inshore and estuarine waters, 29 species spend their entire life cycles in freshwater. These species are found in disjunct tropical regions of South America (one species), Central Africa (three species) and Southeast Asia (25 species).

The puffer's unique and distinctive natural defenses help compensate for its slow locomotion. It moves by combining pectoral, dorsal, anal, and caudal fins. This makes it highly maneuverable, but very slow, and therefore a comparatively easy predation target. Its tail fin is mainly used as a rudder, but it can be used for a sudden evasive burst of speed that shows none of the care and precision of its usual movements. The puffer's excellent eyesight, combined with this speed burst, is the first and most important defense against predators.

Its backup defense mechanism, used if successfully pursued, is to fill its extremely elastic stomach with water (or air when outside the water) until it is much larger and almost spherical in shape. Even if they are not visible when the puffer is not inflated, all puffers have pointed spines, so a hungry predator may suddenly find itself facing an unpalatable, pointy ball rather than a slow, tasty fish. Predators which do not heed this warning (or who are "lucky" enough to catch the puffer suddenly, before or during inflation) may die from choking, and predators that do manage to swallow the puffer may find their stomachs full of tetrodotoxin, making puffers an unpleasant, possibly lethal, choice of prey. This neurotoxin is found primarily in the ovaries and liver, although smaller amounts exist in the intestines and skin, as well as trace amounts in muscle. It does not always have a lethal effect on large predators, such as sharks, but it can kill humans.

Not all puffers are necessarily poisonous; Takifugu oblongus, for example, is a fugu puffer that is not poisonous, and toxin level varies wildly even in fish that are. A puffer's neurotoxin is not necessarily as toxic to other animals as it is to humans, and puffers are eaten routinely by some species of fish, such as lizardfish and tiger sharks. Also, Japanese fish farmers have grown nonpoisonous puffers by controlling their diet.

Puffers are able to move their eyes independently, and many species can change the color or intensity of their patterns in response to environmental changes. In these respects, they are somewhat similar to the terrestrial chameleon. Although most puffers are drab, many have bright colors and distinctive markings, and make no attempt to hide from predators. This is likely an example of aposematism.
Reproduction

Many marine puffers have a pelagic, or open-ocean, life stage. Spawning occurs after males slowly push females to the water surface or join females already present. The eggs are spherical and buoyant. Hatching occurs after roughly four days. The fry are tiny, but under magnification have a shape that is usually reminiscent of a pufferfish. They have a functional mouth and eyes, and must eat within a few days. Brackish water puffers may breed in bays in a similar manner to marine species, or may breed more similarly to the freshwater species, in cases where they have moved far enough upriver.

Reproduction in freshwater species varies quite a bit. The dwarf puffers court with males following females, possibly displaying the crests and keels unique to this subgroup of species. After the female accepts his advances, she will lead the male into plants, moss or another form of cover, where she can release eggs for fertilization. The male may help her by rubbing against her side. This has been observed in captivity, and they are the only commonly captive-spawned puffer species.

Target-group puffers have also been spawned in aquariums, and follow a similar courting behavior, minus the crest/keel display. However, eggs are laid on a flat piece of slate or other smooth hard material, to which they adhere. The male will guard them until they hatch, carefully blowing water over them regularly to keep the eggs healthy. His parenting is finished when the young hatch, and the fry are on their own.

Information on breeding of specific species is very limited. T. nigroviridis, the green-spotted puffer, has recently been artificially spawned under captive conditions. It is believed to spawn in bays in a similar manner to saltwater species, as their sperm were found to be motile only at full marine salinities, but actual wild breeding has never been observed.

In 2012, male pufferfish were documented carving large geometric, circular structures in the seabed sand in Amami Ōshima, Japan. The structures apparently serve to attract females and provide a safe place for them to lay their eggs.

The tetraodontids have been estimated to diverge from diodontids between 89 and 138 million years ago. There are four major clades, and these diverged during the Cretaceous between 80 and 101 million years ago. The oldest known pufferfish genus is Eotetraodon, from the Lutetian epoch of Middle Eocene Europe, with fossils found in Monte Bolca and the Caucasus Mountains. The Monte Bolca species, E. pygmaeus, coexisted with several other tetraodontiforms, including an extinct species of diodontid, primitive boxfish (Proaracana and Eolactoria), and other, totally extinct forms, such as Zignoichthys and the spinacanthids.

Pufferfish can be lethal if not served properly. Puffer poisoning usually results from consumption of incorrectly prepared puffer soup, fugu chiri, or occasionally from raw puffer meat, sashimi fugu. While chiri is much more likely to cause death, sashimi fugu often causes intoxication, light-headedness, and numbness of the lips, and is often eaten for this reason. Pufferfish tetrodotoxin deadens the tongue and lips, and induces dizziness and vomiting, followed by numbness and prickling over the body, rapid heart rate, decreased blood pressure, and muscle paralysis. The toxin paralyzes diaphragm muscles and stops the person who has ingested it from breathing. People who live longer than 24 hours typically survive, although possibly after a coma lasting several days.

The source of tetrodotoxin in puffers has been a matter of debate, but it is increasingly accepted that bacteria in the fish's intestinal tract are the source.

Saxitoxin, the cause of paralytic shellfish poisoning and red tide, can also be found in certain puffers.

More fascinating information on these noble animals here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraodontidae

[Skybird]

I never heard Islamic ideology being compared to the poison of puffer fish. Considering the hazard they both pose to brain activity, you probably have a point.

Meanwhile, BBC newsflash says: "Suspect arrested over stabbing of French soldier in Paris admits attack and was probably acting on "religious ideology", prosecutor says."

Let's see how long that phrasing stands unrelativised.

[Rockstar]

Well I'll say this, one of Islam’s core doctrines is faith in Allah’s absolute and complete sovereignty, many Muslims have had a hard time psychologically with the idea that Islam has had to play second fiddle to Christianity or anyone for that matter for such a long time. They have probably wrestled with the thought throughout the centuries that if Allah is all-powerful and Islam is his only religion, then why does Islam always finish last throughout the world? Why does Allah allow this?

Ill bet you dollars to donuts that in the next few decades if not sooner, as Islam begins to draw closer to bypassing the rest of the herd the psychological boost to Islam will be tremendous.

Sorry but I do have to chuckle a bit here. However on the other hand the psychological blow, for Christianity in particular will be equally profound. Suddenly they'll be asking themselves, “If God is all powerful, then how can he allow Islam to take over the world"?

Oh theres going to be some excitement going on among Muslims alright that hasnt been seen since the initial phases of Islam’s conquests. These murders in London and Paris I think are the beginnings of the tipping point.

Then we will hear from the vast majority of the 'good' muslims who have not spoke out against those few radicals and murders. These 'good' muslims I bet will come out of the wood work wanting to explain that the reason they did nothing was they feared death but! In their heart they were faithful and are now more than willing to jump on the radical bandwagon.

The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir and tortured him until he uttered foul words about the Prophet (Muhammad), and praised their gods and idols; and when they released him, he went straight to the Prophet. The Prophet said: "Is there something on your mind?" `Ammar Ibn Yasir said: "Bad news! They would not release me until I defamed you and praised their gods!" The Prophet said: "How do you find your heart to be?" `Ammar answered: "Comfortable with faith." So the Prophet said: "Then if they come back for you, then do the same thing all over again." Allah at that moment revealed the verse: "....except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith..." Surah 16:106

[HundertzehnGustav]

---

It also strikes me time and again that whenever something bad is done by some primitive sucker due to Quranic motivation, it is said that the Quran is a matter of interpretation, and that one needs a cleric's explanation to understand it in the "correct" manner, and that one must read it in Arabic (!) anyway, since this holy divine truth cannot adequately expressed in our primitive Western language anyway. But the Quran is claimed to be the word of God. Is God too stupid or was he simply too drunk so that he could not express himself that clearly that man can understand beyond doubt and without a man in the middle what he means and what he is talking about? Either God is a very stupid retard indeed, or the imperfection of Quran is due to it not being the word of an almighty god.


AWESOME.
LOLed.
:har:
:yeah:
double thumbs up, that waas funny indeed. i like your way of thinking.

a bit harsh, but funny as hell.

[Skybird]

That'S why I do not buy that "moderate Muslim" crap anymore. I hold them fully accountable for their acting and non-acting.

When people allow terrorists and/or hate-preachers to represent them, to act and to talk on behalf of them, these people are responsible. If people do not try to identify and get rid of terrorists, extremists and hate preacher sin their middle, they are responsible. If people allow extremists, terrorists and hate preachers to hide in their middle, they are responsible. If people hinder police and justice by falling silent in case of police investigations, if they obey parallel justice systems by Sharia judges, encourage non-integration and bypassing the law of the state, they are responsible. If Muslim communities demand the law of the country getting changed on their behalf, if they demand special treatment by state and police, if they demand special status and more attention payed to them than to all other migrant groups together, and if they only have sweet words when microphones are held at them but do not let deeds follow them and not cleaning their house all by themselves and isolate, braqndmark and throw out extremists, hate-preachers and terrorist all by themselves - then they are responsible.

They must take sides, finally. Sitting non the fence, saying they do not like what is being done in their name, but doing nothing to improve the situation, not helping, even trying to hinder us in cleaning their dirty house for them - that is what imo qualifies them for being given the boot and kicked back to the dark countries where they came from. Without going through a thousand instances of the justice system first and getting stuffed millions and millions into the process.

When you stay inside my house, it is my rules that count. Not yours, not at all - my rules. You don't like it - you leave. I do not hinder you or stab you in your back. You have no right whatever to demand me that once you came to my house I must paint the walls in the colours you demand, nor must I tolerate in my house what you say inside my house and what you do or not do.

My house - my rules.

Our home, our Europe, our America - our rules. Rules say: no Sharia, no violation of human rights, equal rights for women, no slavery, no family murder, no racism, no totalitarianism, no governing and law-making by religions, no enforced converting to Islam, no foreign Islamic nations' interests pushed by you into our societies. You hide hate-preachers and extremists in your middle, tolerate them, hinder actions taken against them - you first feel the sting of the law, and then the kick of our boot.

You comply and fully integrate without preconditions of yours, or you leave. That you integrate in full, is neither your choice nor your freedom- but your non-negotiable obligation. And it is you having to do it - not us. Period.

P.S. People may think I am too tough. But just consider that our laws knows a paragraphs putting non-assistance in case of an emergency under penalty. And that the law also will hold you accountable if you know of the presence of a terror cell that aims to overthrow the constitutional order, but you do not alarm the police. Or you know that a bankrobber is hiding in your appartment house, but you do not alarm the police. The law holds you accountable if you are proven to have known - but not having acted. That this proof is difficult to secure, you probabyl get away with saying "I did not see anything, I did not hear anything, how should I have known anything". But that still would be a lie then. And it also does not mean that the intention of the law is not there. Both morally and legally you are accountable for staying passive in case of not acting on behalf of your knowledge.

[MH]

That'S why I do not buy that "moderate Muslim" crap anymore. I hold them fully accountable for their acting and non-acting.


I agree that moderate Islam is mostly about not talking about some issues while extreme one is about calling for them.
That create sort of problem here...what happens that the moderate guys don't contradict the extremists and extremists may be seen as further expansion on the ideology.
Condemnation are very rare unfortunately.

Since you have millions of Muslims in EU by now acknowledging the problem and dealing with it is important but spreading antagonism is counterproductive.

[Skybird]

Condemnation are very rare unfortunately.

Really? I would say the opposite. It's the first thing happening after another "incident". Followed by the remark that "Islam has nothing to do with it".

It's just - and that is my point - the words are not followed by deeds, and that the wide passivity and tolerance against hate preachers, extremists and terrorist hiding in their community illustrates a behavior that does not live up top the words. Words are cheap, and comfortably get off the lips. I'm not interested in pleasant words anymore. I demand a massive, widespread alteration of community behavior and -demands, and of individual behavior. Deeds. Not words. Cleaning the house, revolting against their leaders, extremists and hate-dripping and racist jihadists, not just some comfortable feel-well events like a public demonstration. Handing them over, alarming the police all by themselves, giving them the kick to their bottoms.

Our tolerance and patience has been abused so often and so massively and since so many decades, that they really have some debts to get straight. Instead, what we get is an increase in orthodoxy and radicalisation with every new generation of Muslim immigrant offsprings, and ever more demands for special treatment that no other social group gets or would dare to demand. And where our "unsensible, racist" leaders would dare to reject that (being fictional here), we get accused of not doing enough for integrating them. We must not integrate anyone coming to us. The obligation to integrate is with the foreigner coming here. Not with us. And maybe we should be much more choosey regarding whom we let in, and whom not. Nobody has a birth right to come from a foreign country to us and to demand that we must accept him. He only has a right to ask us. And we have any right there is to consider the questions and answer with Yes or No. No moral argument there is why we must accept somebody that we do not want. When no other migrant groups, from Asia, Europe, non-Muslim Africa, both americas, does not give us problems like Muslims do, then we have any right to say that not migrations in general but Muslim migrations poses devastating problems to our societies that so far we have proven to not being able to handle. What we see instead is that we fall back from the confrontation - we fall back in our own home countries, and give more and more ground.

We lose, because we allow it. We lose - this, and nothing else.

[MH]

Really? I would say the opposite. It's the first thing happening after another "incident". Followed by the remark that "Islam has nothing to do with it".
Maybe by media but not at mosques and so on.

[Jimbuna]

Well, not many surprises here...


Drummer Lee Rigby died of "multiple incised wounds" after being attacked on a street in Woolwich, a post-mortem examination has discovered.
The finding was issued as police made a fresh appeal for information after the soldier's killing a week ago.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22703063

[Skybird]

Unfortunately only in German:

the offspring of an Italian migrant family in Germany lectures the bigmouthed and never ever satisfied speaker of a Turkish migrants organisation here in Germany(and with links to Turkish ultranationalists) on how foreigners in foreign countries, where they ask to be accepted in, have to behave, and how to integrate, and what separates migrants from Muslim migrants and why the latter are so massive a problem for all other people living here, natives and migrants alike. From one insider with migration backgrounds to another, so to speak. :)

LINK: Migrant and Migrant: Rutschen Sie mir den Buckel runter! (http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0031024)

[Cybermat47]

^^^

In other words, "Turks are stupid crazy people". :doh:

[Jimbuna]

The second man arrested over the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby has been discharged from hospital, police say.
Michael Adebolajo, 28, has been taken into custody at a south London police station, where he will be questioned.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22734302

[Herr-Berbunch]

Is Paddington in South London? That's where 'terrorists' usually go.

[Tribesman]

Is Paddington in South London?
Central London, it's Westminster borough.

[Jimbuna]

Is Paddington in South London? That's where 'terrorists' usually go.

Probably keeping them separated as an extra security precaution.