Okey truther now you can change your belief

[mapuc]

Maybe you have heard that they have found parts from one of the Boing that hit WTC in 2001

Here's the story

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/World-Trade-Center-Airplane-Pieces-Found-Sifting-Debris-Remains-204901961.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_NYBrand

So to all those who believe that it was some kind of missile, they can now change their belief to-It was some real plane that hit the towers

Markus

[Takeda Shingen]

Yay! Worm can opened! :roll:

[Schroeder]

"They had 11 years to place it there" will be their answer.;)

[Takeda Shingen]

"They had 11 years to place it there" will be their answer.;)

Hey, I got your PM. I'll reply when I am in a less snarky mood. We're cool, man.

[mapuc]

Yay! Worm can opened! :roll:

I had some thought about posting it, ´cause I know were alle those other thread about this issue have derailed

But here's to the moderators Please be free to erase this thread, if this thread should get somehow derailed.

Markus

[Schroeder]

Hey, I got your PM. I'll reply when I am in a less snarky mood. We're cool, man.
No problem. I'm going to bed now anyway. It's a quarter to 4 AM over here.:yawn:

[Tchocky]

Ah Jesus Schroeder don't remind what time it is!

I blame House of Cards

[Takeda Shingen]

Jesus Christ, will you two go to sleep? I'm getting tired just thinking about what time it is over there. :D

[Tchocky]

I've been on 3-midnight shifts all week so this is kind of normal. Can't wait to transition to mornings for next week, going to be so much fun to be around.

[Platapus]

Weird that no one noticed it all these years. But an 18 inch airgap between buildings is pretty small.

[soopaman2]

Weird that no one noticed it all these years. But an 18 inch airgap between buildings is pretty small.

They found bone fragments on neighboring rooftops a few years later. And the article makes it sound like an entire engine was sitting there. I am a local of this fair city, despite my NJ in my profile.

And there is all kinds of crap, and debris in the alleys of NYC. I can understand how this can be unreported so long, as the only people who would have seen that was the homeless or hookers, both of whom are naturally distrustful of authorities.

I dare you to see what is creeping in a NYC alleyway.

[Jimbuna]

I dare you to see what is creeping in a NYC alleyway.

Batman? :hmmm:


:)

[JU_88]

Maybe you have heard that they have found parts from one of the Boing that hit WTC in 2001

Here's the story

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/World-Trade-Center-Airplane-Pieces-Found-Sifting-Debris-Remains-204901961.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_NYBrand

So to all those who believes that it was some kind of missile, they can now change their belief to-It was some real plane that hit the towers

Markus


Not sure how that would contradict the belief of the average truther, maybe the really nutty ones that insist the aircraft were holograms? Not much point in trying to reason with those people - as they dont do 'reason' :O:

[Catfish]

First it can have been placed there then, or in the years until now.
Second no one doubts a plane or better two flew into the towers ?

The thing still is who staged this :O:


Just a reminder:

From the Operation Northwoods papers, ideas to make up attacks on own soil (called state terrorism) to have a pretext for attacking other countries, or get certain laws through.
(Exchange 'Cuba/cubans with any country/people you like, or 'Muslims')


And think about that those ideas came from the US secret service:


"Incidents to establish a credible attack:

1. Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
2. Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on the base.
3. Capture Cuban (friendly) sabateurs inside the base.
4. Start riots near the entrance to the base (friendly Cubans).
5. Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.
6. Burn aircraft on airbase (sabotage).
7. Lob morter shells from outsidethe base to inside the base. Some damage to installation.
8. Capture assault teams.
9. Capture militia group which storms the base.
10. Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires -- napthalene [napalm].
11. Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims.

(b) United States would respond by executing offensive operations.

3. A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms:

a. We could blow up a US ship and blame Cuba.

b. We could blow up a drone (unmannded) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. The presense of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The US could follow with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

c. We could develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cubans in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few bombs in carefully chosen spots. The arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating cuban involvement.

5. A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation. These efforts can be magnified with additional ones contrived for exposure. "Cuban" B-26 or C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night. Soviet Bloc incidiaries could be found. This could be coupled with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground and "Cuban" shipments of arms which would be found, or intercepted, on the beach.

6. Use of MIG-type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping, and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type palnes would be useful. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce that fact.

7. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which would demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civilian airliner from the United States.

a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB [10 separate landing strips on one giant base in the jungle] would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rondevous. From the rondevous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly to an auxiliary airfield at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. Meanwhile the drone aircraft will continue to fly the filed flight plan. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow IACO radio stations to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.

[...] "

Also this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

and so on .. slightly different as it happened of course, but those ideas are old stuff from the 1960ies. And it is all about self (state) induced terror, while blaming others and generate pretexts. And if the public demands revenge ...
:hmm2:

[Dowly]

Oh ffs, stop citing Op. Northwoods already. Got absolutely nothing to do with.. well.. anything.

As for OP, pieces of the planes were found right after 9/11 from all 4 crashes.

[HunterICX]

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5320/be258a25lookupfrompaper.jpg

HunterICX

[Oberon]

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/843/ykmbjrhe4twanoh2aseags7.jpg

[mapuc]

You are right, the hardcore truther will never believe it

and Dowly is also right, they found lots of debris from the airplanes, right after the terror

Markus

[Takeda Shingen]

You are right, the hardcore truther will never believe it

Then why did you start this go around again? This is the sort of thing I am talking about being harmful.

[August]

And think about that those ideas came from the US secret service:

No they didn't.

[Wolferz]

I think the truthers claim of a missile hitting something was actually the Pentagon. Not the WTC tower. Those were demoed for the insurance money and to steal the precious metal bullion locked up in the basement vaults. It's kind of funny that the NTSB was waved off the site of two plane crashes and all the evidence at the crime scene was quickly swept up and hauled to the dump by a company that specializes in dropping buildings in their own footprints.:hmmm:

[Tchocky]

Oh Christ not this again.

[mapuc]

Then why did you start this go around again? This is the sort of thing I am talking about being harmful.

I wasn't thinking about that when I posted it


Markus

[Wolferz]

Oh Christ not this again.

We're going to prop your eyelids open with toothpicks and make you read this thread.:03::haha: NOT

[Takeda Shingen]

We're going to prop your eyelids open with toothpicks and make you read this thread.:03::haha: NOT

No, but you all are going to keep saturating the forum with conspiracy talk, right?

[Catfish]

No they didn't.

You are right.
It called for the CIA or another secret agency to perform the action, but was written by the Department of Defense (DoD), and authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then rejected by the Kennedy Administration.
Sry, should at least get the facts right :oops:
Catfish

[Wolferz]

No, but you all are going to keep saturating the forum with conspiracy talk, right?

Nope. I've said my piece and will depart,:cool: incognito.

[Takeda Shingen]

Nope. I've said my piece and will depart,:cool: incognito.

I hope against all hope.

[JU_88]

No, but you all are going to keep saturating the forum with conspiracy talk, right?

Takeda, I get that you are not a fan of Conspiricy stuff which is fair enough, but doesn't 'General topics' mean anything goes so long as it is in line with Subsims rules?
I dont see why its such a problem for people to discuss this sort of thing if they want to, and/or ignore it if they dont.
If a topic is unpopular it will die of natural causes because no ones wants to participate. It really doesnt need to be policed.
You yourself have been adding a fair bit of fuel to the fire here, condsidering this is a topic you want sunk. Rather counter productive if you ask me.

[Takeda Shingen]

Takeda, I get that you are not a fan Conspiricy stuff which is fair enough, but doesn't 'General topics' mean anything goes so long as it is in line with Subsims rules?
I dont see why its such a problem for people to discuss this sort of thing if they want to, and/or ignore it if they dont.
If a topic is unpopular it will die of natural causes because no ones wants to feed it. It really doesnt need to be policed.

Because if you ignore it, then it becomes commonplace. And then you see what we have today; a forum that is saturated with it. No, being silent and keeping your eyes on the ground is not the way to deal with this sort of thing. It's all about what kind of forum you want to have and having your voice heard. Don't let a minority run everyone else off.

[JU_88]

Because if you ignore it, then it becomes commonplace. And then you see what we have today; a forum that is saturated with it. No, being silent and keeping your eyes on the ground is not the way to deal with this sort of thing. It's all about what kind of forum you want to have and having your voice heard. Don't let a minority run everyone else off.

Ok, but I must admit that Im really not seeing this saturation you talk about....sorry.

[Takeda Shingen]

Ok, but I must admit that Im really not seeing this saturation you talk about....sorry.

Really? You're not seeing the talk about government conspiracy, "manufactured reality", drone attacks against citizens and whatnot in threads up and down the front page? It's in virtually every discussion thread here. It's pervasive.

[JU_88]

Really? You're not seeing the talk about government conspiracy, "manufactured reality", drone attacks against citizens and whatnot in threads up and down the front page? It's in virtually every discussion thread here. It's pervasive.

Im seeing the odd post here and there, usually from the same people (who can be counted on one hand more or less)
But it tends to be best contained when its either ignored or humoured, but when it gets a seriouse response, then it can go on and on.

If you truley believe it is such a problem, I would suggest making a simple poll along the lines of, "Should conspiricy therory discussion be banned from GT?"
Poll choices: yes/ No /Dont care.
Depending on the results, you can take it to Neal and request that conspiricy talk be banned from GT, or maybe have it relocated to a sub-forum of sorts.

Because I think there are a few problems with your current approach of stamping on each post or poster you encounter.
1) Its a crusade you will probably never win.
2) It only bumps the topics up and invites further discussion in them.
3) Its not abundantly clear if you are acting in the best intreast of the majority (fine) or just doing it because you personally dont approve of it(not so fine)
4) It comes accross as slightly bully-ish which doesn't reflect so well on you. (even if and when you are in the right)

Just my 2 cents - take it or leave it.

[Takeda Shingen]

1) You will never win.

By myself, no. Together, yes we can change things.

2) It only bumps the topics up and invites further discussion in them.

For that thread, yes. For future threads, no. It's about the long term.

3) Its not abundantly clear if you are acting in the best intreast of the majority (fine) or just doing it because you personally dont approve of it(not so fine)

That's why we can decide to take a stand as a community. No one man does it alone. Right now, just letting people run hog wild isn't working. You don't troll them. You don't violate any rules. You just let your voice be heard. Silence doesn't do that.

4) It comes accross as slighlty bully-ish which it doesn't reflect very well on you - especially as a moderator.

I'm not a moderator.

[JU_88]

You used to be moderator , or at least i thought you were once - so my bad.

Yes 'we' can change things, but reason I suggested a poll is to establish exactly who 'we' is first...
You'd be better off making a considerate case to change the rules, rather than trying to bull doze though some kind of ettiquette though flame wars.

[Takeda Shingen]

You used to be moderator , or at least i thought you were once - so my bad.

Yes 'we' can change things, but reason I suggested a poll is to establish exactly who 'we' is first...
You'd be better off making a considerate case to change the rules, rather than trying to bull doze though some kind of ettiquette though flame wars.

Why? That technique seems to work for the other side. Why do I have to play nice when others are not bound by those same rules? Why are said rules not uniformly enforced?

[JU_88]

Why? That technique seems to work for the other side. Why do I have to play nice when others are not bound by those same rules? Why are said rules not uniformly enforced?

How are they not playing nice? and which rules specifically?

[Takeda Shingen]

How are they not playing nice? and which rules specifically?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2048038&postcount=326

Why is August able to troll like that? Other members would have gotten the ol' mod smack down. Not him, though.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2044868&postcount=488

Why does Skybird get to tell people to go shoot themselves? Imagine if that was Tribesman.

And there are dozens of other examples of this sort of favoritism on the first page alone. It's wrong.

[Jimbuna]

Most of my time in the past couple of days has been spent keeping up to speed in the GT section and I am adamant there will be no flame wars here and said rules/ettiquette WILL be uniformly expected of ALL participants who post here.

On that you have my word.

[Jimbuna]

Okay...whilst typing a response there have been numerous post exchanges but trust me...GT will be a level playing field if I have anything to do with it.

The SubSim community members expect nothing less and as long as I'm a member here I will do my honest best to ensure everyone is treated equitably.

[Takeda Shingen]

Okay...whilst typing a response there have been numerous post exchanges but trust me...GT will be a level playing field if I have anything to do with it.

The SubSim community members expect nothing less and as long as I'm a member here I will do my honest best to ensure everyone is treated equitably.

Okay, but I have shown you where it is happening. And you and I both know that this isn't new. So, yes, I hope you will do something about it. I'll say no more on the issue, at least for now.

You or anyone else who point me to the source can expect remedial action provided the evidence is conclusive regarding breaches of stipulated forum rules.

[JU_88]

Takeda, Did you report the posts? anyway thats not quite what i meant, I didnt think we were talking about people being hostile in general...
Of the two people Ive seen discuss 'conspiricy' the most, Ive never seen either one of them being obnoxious towards anybody over it.

Saying something that might be considered as 'absurd' is not the same as making rude or condecending personal attacks (such as the ones you highlighted).

[Jimbuna]

Apologies for the error on my part regarding the edit function but the contents still stand.

[Jimbuna]

My response to#41:

Okay, but I have shown you where it is happening. And you and I both know that this isn't new. So, yes, I hope you will do something about it. I'll say no more on the issue, at least for now.

You or anyone else who point me to the source can expect remedial action provided the evidence is conclusive regarding breaches of stipulated forum rules.

[Takeda Shingen]

Takeda, Did you report the posts? anyway thats not quite what i meant, I didnt think we were talking about people being hostile in general...
Of the two people Ive seen discuss 'conspiricy' the most, Ive never seen either one of them being obnoxious towards anybody over it.

Saying something that might be considered as 'absurd' is not the same as making rude or condecending personal attacks (such as the ones you highlighted).

And this is where my point closes the circle. It is the prevalence of these sort of political obsessions, wing nut politics and conspiracy theories that generates the hostility. When you're a moderator, you can tell where the problems are going to be by the title of the thread. I contend that if we, as a community, could have fewer of these we could have fewer of the personal attacks. That would probably make a minority of the members very unhappy, but I think it would improve the quality of life, so to speak, for the majority, and give this community the legs to sustain itself in waiting for new games.

What is happening now mirrors what happened to the Wolfpack League back in 2003. I didn't speak up then, but I will speak up now.

[Takeda Shingen]

My response to#41:



You or anyone else who point me to the source can expect remedial action provided the evidence is conclusive regarding breaches of stipulated forum rules.

Don't worry about the edit in post 41. I used to hit the edit button instead of the reply button all the time. Anyway, I gave you two links as examples in post No. 38.

[JU_88]

these sort of political obsessions, wing nut politics and conspiracy theories.

Dude ^ that sentence pretty much sums up half of all posts in GT :haha:, alot of people here have some pretty extreme views on stuff and they often clash over it, but that is who we collectivly are, and that is the nature of GT.
As long as people draw the line before hostility I dont see how it is a problem that can reasonably be addressed with out enforcing heavy censorship on GT - and I dont think any wants that, If you dont want your values and beliefs challenged, GT is not really a good place to hang out. Its been that way as long i can remember, in fact the first topic I ever read in GT was a 3 way war between Sky, August and Tribesman, (surprise surprise 3 people with strong views) I really dont remember what it was about though :D

[Takeda Shingen]

Dude ^ that sentence pretty much sums up half of all posts in GT :haha:, alot of people here have some pretty extreme views on stuff and they often clash over it, but that is who we collectivly are, and that is the nature of GT.
As long as people draw the line before hostility I dont see how it is a problem that can reasonably be addressed with out enforcing heavy censorship on GT.

It wasn't always who we were as a collective of personalities. The level of this is a new thing. The thing is, I want my old SubSim back, and I resent those that hold to this new way. I have tried to push back by being nice, and that just got me run over. So now I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore. It isn't fair to any of us. Why accept it?

[Jimbuna]

I certainly don't consider myself to be the panacea to all that some community members may envisage as the ailments of GT and I no longer wear the uniform that once gave me the 'luxury' of deciding on definitive remedial action that may be warranted but I truly believe I have one essential quality that is needed around these parts and that is one of recognising the need to treat everyone equitably and starting afresh from this post onwards.

Can we all move on from here collectively please?

THIS COMMUNITY DESERVES NOTHING LESS.

[Takeda Shingen]

I certainly don't consider myself to be the panacea to all that some community members may envisage as the ailments of GT and I no longer wear the uniform that once gave me the 'luxury' of deciding on definitive remedial action that may be warranted but I truly believe I have one essential quality that is needed around these parts and that is one of recognising the need to treat everyone equitably and starting afresh from this post onwards.

Can we all move on from here collectively please?

I know that you don't make all the calls, and I understand that. Sure, we can move forward from here. I'll even stop replying to August's trolling. But understand that when there's inequity between members, you'll hear from me again, and loudly. It's an unfortunate reality that volume is the only thing that seems to work around here, not to impugn present company.

[Jimbuna]

I know that you don't make all the calls, and I understand that. Sure, we can move forward from here. I'll even stop replying to August's trolling. But understand that when there's inequity between members, you'll hear from me again, and loudly. It's an unfortunate reality that volume is the only thing that seems to work around here, not to impugn present company.

Appreciated Tom.

[JU_88]

It wasn't always who we were as a collective of personalities. The level of this is a new thing. The thing is, I want my old SubSim back, and I resent those that hold to this new way. I have tried to push back by being nice, and that just got me run over. So now I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore. It isn't fair to any of us. Why accept it?

Because.... to 'try' to keep it in perspective, its ultimately just an internet forum. Things change and you cant turn back time.
Its not like you have to live with us in your house. you can make us all go away at the click of a button any time your sick of it all.
And the world itself isn't particullarly fair alot of the time :P

[Wolferz]

Attempting to create a utopian fantasy will only create a dystopian reality in GT. Not my suggestion in any shape or form. Sticking to the uniform code of conduct and being fair in the policing of it is the only way to fly and be fair to all who post here. Posters can be ignored if you have no interest in their topic of choice or you find that their values don't match up with yours. Hey we're all varied and unique in our views of this crazy world. Nobody forces us to read them. Just remember... Ignorance is bliss.

Just my opinion FWIW.

[Sailor Steve]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2048038&postcount=326

Why is August able to troll like that? Other members would have gotten the ol' mod smack down. Not him, though.
I've read that post several times now. I see the humor, and I see how it can cause offense to some, but I'm not sure I see how it is trolling.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2044868&postcount=488

Why does Skybird get to tell people to go shoot themselves? Imagine if that was Tribesman.
Skybird was given a warning. Tribesman would have gotten the same. What should he have been given?

And there are dozens of other examples of this sort of favoritism on the first page alone. It's wrong.
Dozens? Really?

[Tribesman]

I've read that post several times now. I see the humor, and I see how it can cause offense to some, but I'm not sure I see how it is trolling.

Really Steve?:03:

:haha:


Make sure you don't quote me on that as I don't want you to to get complained about again.

[Oberon]

But what is the true definition of trolling?

Wikipedia has it as:

In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

And the Oxford Dictionary has it as:

informal submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response

[Webster]

"They had 11 years to place it there" will be their answer.;)

that or the government flew the planes by remote control to cover up them blowing up the towers.

truthers are all about ignoring the truth no matter how much proof there is