Buoy System

[icthird623]

Is anyone familiar with the buoy system in 1939? I believe today the international color and lighting system uses a red color or light on the starboard side approaching a harbor or channel and green on the port side. I notice it appears to be the opposite in SH 5.
I could be wrong

IC3

[raymond6751]

You may just be on the wrong side of the bouys! :har:

[tat501]

Right Red Returning! I think it is the same in the game.

Keep the green ones on your port side and red on starboard when heading into port and the red on your port side when leaving port.

There is a thread on here with some illustrations etc regarding this I think!

[icthird623]

I agree with Tat and that was what I was trying to say. In my setup it is the opposite. It is not a big deal, I just wondered if I was missing something.

Happy Sailing

[Trevally.]

Red ATONs always have even numbers, and green ATONs have odd numbers. Under the IALA B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_of_Lighthouse_Authoritie s) standard used in North and South America, when you are going to sea, the red ATON is on your left, and the green on your right. Under the IALA A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_of_Lighthouse_Authoritie s) standard used in Europe, Africa and most of Asia, the colors are reversed.
In the IALA B system, the red ATONs are on your right when you return from sea (Red Right Returning) and the green on your left. Red daybeacons are triangles and green daybeacons are squares. All of these ATONs are Lateral Markers that mark traffic channels and where it is safe to travel.


:up:

[BigWalleye]

Having sailed all my life in the Western Hemisphere, I figured the red markers to starboard outbound Kiel were another error of the game, or maybe a result of the Canal. If red were to starboard at the west entrance to the canal, and consistently throughout its length, there would be a red marker to starboard at the Kiel end and possibly at the mouth of Kiel harbor as well. The system doesn't lend itself well to double-ended channels.

But, based on the source Trevally posted, which seems correct, it's even worse than that. There are two exactly opposite standards! One rule for roughly half the world, and the opposite for the other half! Kind of misses the point of standardization, especially in regard to navaids, where users would be going from one standards area to another pretty regularly. And this is what is described as the IALA Rationalized System.

Don't drink and sail!

[gap]

From my experience, I can confirm that at least in Italy port lights are as described by Trevally: entering ports, red light on the left and green on the right hand :yep:

[Kessner]

You may just be on the wrong side of the bouys! :har:

:haha:

[Kessner]

Wait a minute....There is a wrong side of the bouys? :shifty:

[Fifi]

:huh: In RL, leaving harbor IS with red on right side and green on left side, entering harbor IS with red on left side and green on right side...from long time (couldn't say start date though) and any place i've been in Pacific area and european area.

[icthird623]

Extremely interesting, thank you all for your input,

[BigWalleye]

:huh: In RL, leaving harbor IS with red on right side and green on left side, entering harbor IS with red on left side and green on right side...from long time (couldn't say start date though) and any place i've been in Pacific area and european area.

That's true in Oceania and Europe, but absolutely INCORRECT anywhere in the Western Hemisphere (and Japan and the Philippines, too, I understand). Here, the rule has always been: "Red Right Returning."

[Fifi]

Ok, then didn't know it was other way in Japan or elsewhere...:huh:
Pretty dangerous if you're not aware! :D

[Sailor Steve]

Yes it is dangerous if you don't know. I was unaware of the two different systems, so I checked and sure enough, they are opposite each other.
http://www.sailingissues.com/navcourse9.html#direction

I never noticed that in any Silent Hunter game. When leaving or entering port at night I just stick close to the lights that are on my right, and pay no attention to the color.

[gap]

That's true in Oceania and Europe, but absolutely INCORRECT anywhere in the Western Hemisphere (and Japan and the Philippines, too, I understand). Here, the rule has always been: "Red Right Returning."

Sometimes a couple of pictures say more than a thousand words. From Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/IALA_world_distribution_.PNG/800px-IALA_world_distribution_.PNG
IALA Regions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Phares-du-Palais-Belle-Ile.jpg/800px-Phares-du-Palais-Belle-Ile.jpg
Leaving port (IALA Region A)

Yes it is dangerous if you don't know. I was unaware of the two different systems, so I checked and sure enough, they are opposite each other.
http://www.sailingissues.com/navcourse9.html#direction

Good link. Thank you for sharing, Steve :up:

[volodya61]

Sometimes a couple of pictures say more than a thousand words. From Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/IALA_world_distribution_.PNG/800px-IALA_world_distribution_.PNG
IALA Regions

Simply The Best :up:

A couple of days looked at this thread and could not figure out how to put it more precisely :)

[Targor Avelany]

a rock at the US:

Did America decided to stand out from the rest of the world? :haha::haha::haha::har::har::har:

Sorry, could not resist :)

[icthird623]

No, but I am still working on converting KM, M, to yards, feet and miles
:03:

[gap]

Simply The Best :up:

A couple of days looked at this thread and could not figure out how to put it more precisely :)

Moreover, it is likely that IALA B system was introduced into Japan, the Philippines, and Korea after the end of WWII, when they came under the American influence :03:


Did America decided to stand out from the rest of the world? :haha::haha::haha::har::har::har:

Not exaclty, they had their own system when they joined the IALA standards, but since it was too cumbersome for them to get used to the new lateral buoyage color code, it was decided that they would have retained their own system, called on the occasion "IALA B". Many other safety standards are shared by both IALA A and B :yep:

[icthird623]

Does make you wonder where the logic is with 2 systems

[BigWalleye]

a rock at the US:

Did America decided to stand out from the rest of the world? :haha::haha::haha::har::har::har:

Sorry, could not resist :)

You guys do it, too! As does all of South America. Japan, too. Seems like another hangover from colonialism in the rest of the world!:D

[volodya61]

And where is the logic in the existence of the two measuring systems? I mean: kilometers - miles, kilograms - pounds, liters - gallons :06: :)

[gap]

And where is the logic in the existence of the two measuring systems? I mean: kilometers - miles, kilograms - pounds, liters - gallons :06: :)

Not to mention the two opposite, righ and left-hand, traffic conventions :03:

[BigWalleye]

Metrication is generally not a safety issue, except in engineering calculations, where there is usually lots of time to check results and find errors. Driving is a different story, but I don't believe there is any border where you can transition directly from a right-hand to a left-hand country. And even so, the side of the road everyone is driving on is usually pretty self-evident.

But consider approaching an unfamiliar harbor at night, visibility 1 mile, at the helm of a 40-foot sailboat. All you can see is a single green light ahead. Does it mark the right or the left side of the safe channel? And that red light that you can dimly see farther ahead - is it the opposite channel marker, or the port-side light of a supertanker moving down-channel? The answers to these questions are only of interest if you happen to be on that sailboat, and then they become VERY important to you personally!

[CaptBones]

Well, if only it was all that simple and/or "standardized." But, it isn't and that's why trained, experienced and competent Navigators are always in demand, professional civilian mariners are Licensed, and why ocean-going vessels (including warships) are required to take aboard a local Pilot in almost any major seaport or waterway.

But first, it ought to be recognized that the IALA isn't really even relevant to the actual subject. :hmmm: The IALA wasn't organized until 1979 and the first conference was held in 1980 to rationalize (NOT "standardize"!) the 30+ different buoyage systems that existed at the time. That was a long, long time after the period of history covered by the Silent Hunter game series. Essentially every independent maritime nation had its own system of buoyage and Rules of the Road/Inland Pilot Rules, although many were copies of someone else's (or were originally implemented by the "Mother Country"); even the International Regulations for Prevention of Collisions at Sea (COLREGS) were a "work in progress" and weren't issued until 1960...and are still evolving.

Nonetheless, seeing as the topic had quite a bit of interest, I did a quick review of my pre-WW I and II copies of "Knight's Modern Seamanship", Dutton's 1926 "Navigation and Nautical Astronomy", and the 1951 "Admiralty Manual of Seamanship." They all seem to indicate that the buoyage systems in the game(s) are reasonably accurate representations of the separate schemes in effect prior to and during the war, although to avoid over-complication, they aren't totally correct in every detail. I'd say the Devs produced at least an "80% solution", good enough for game purposes.

WRT a couple of other points that were brought up...

The system in the Philippines was a U.S. system because the Philippines was an American "possession" since 1898; that system continued in use after they were granted independence in 1946 and was then naturally extended to the IALA B system. Although I couldn't find any particular references to the pre-WW II Japanese and S. Korean buoyage systems in any of my class materials (taught Navigation and Seamanship for quite a few years), I do recall seeing documentation a long time ago that alluded to the establishment of the U.S. system in those countries during the post-WW II occupation; aids to navigation of all kinds in Japanese held territories were almost completely destroyed during the war. As such, the IALA B system would be logically implemented there as well.