TMO overhauled...too much overhauled?

[Fifi]

Hi,

Beside my SH5 career, started one with SH4 and TMO 2.5 overhauled...and so far, have to say it's by far the most difficult and hard ever done with an SH serie :doh:

Am all for the realistic stuff, but might be a little bit too hard to close anything (but mainly warships) even at war start...(well, 1941).
Closing periscope depth is completely impossible, and closing even 110m depth often result in a detection...silent running of course, and thin profile offered.

Isn't it a bit too much? To be able to lock target at night, have to close at least 2200m...
(by the way, i run easier AI for TMO too!)

Your thoughts? Any tips?

[acofm89]

Hi,



Am all for the realistic stuff, but might be a little bit too hard to close anything (but mainly warships) even at war start...(well, 1941).
Closing periscope depth is completely impossible, and closing even 110m depth often result in a detection...silent running of course, and thin profile offered.


Well, it has a lot to do with the conditions; attacking something, especially warships, during the daytime with clear blue skies and a dead calm ocean is usually not a very good idea. Even if you manage to get in close the enemy will see your torpedos coming a mile away (quite literally) and take evasive action. Rough seas or the cover of night can make all the difference though. Ducimus wrote a little essay about how the A.I behaves in the readme file that comes with TMO. It might be worth checking out :)

[Fifi]

Yes, i agree with weather conditions. Problem is, with TMO 2.5, weather doesn't change from start till 20 days! (flat sea - cristal clear sky)...even whatever or how many restart i do.
It changes nicely after those critical 20 days or so, though.

[acofm89]

I've noticed that as well on occasion, though it doesn't always seem to happen. It's weird though that sometimes the weather changes from day to day and other ttimes it's painfully slow. A while ago I got stuck in fog with zero visibility for something like two weeks. I had to torpedo ships only with the help of radar and hydrophone. Luckily it was just off the Japanese coast so I figured the risk of friendly fire was pretty low :)
Torpedo attacks in calm weather and good visibility get's much easier though later on when you get access to the electrical mk.18 torps that are completely wakeless.

[BigWalleye]

As I have seen it explained, the idea of TMO was not to create a realistic simulation of the conditions in 1941 or any other time during the war. The goal was to simulate the tension and sense of risk. To paraphrase Ducimus, to make you think like a submarine captain. Here are some of Ducimus' own words:

"...stated goals are to make the pacific theater immersive and engaging to the player. Historical accuracy and realism (sometimes achieved by abstract means) is adhered to as much as possible, but some elements are taken with creative license in order to achieve its stated goals. Trigger Maru is also targeted for the "seasoned" submarine simulation fan, and some elements have been made harder in order to present a higher level of challenge then that provided the stock game, while at the same time, reducing some elements of the game that one may find annoying.
Trigger Maru also recognizes that "harder" is not necessarily "realistic", and stands in solidarity with the Real Fleet Boat "supermod" in this regard. If your looking for 100% historical accuracy without creative license, the author of Trigger Maru heartily recommends Real Fleet Boat."

If you want to be able to duplicate what you read in the history books, TMO won't work for you. The actual conditions in the early war months aren't like those in TMO. The argument is (and I admit I am putting words in other people's mouths) that the real sub skippers didn't know what the conditions would be at that point in the war. If they appear timid in hindsight, they didn't know what they would encounter. It's easier to be Mush Morton when you know in advance that you will be able to sink that charging destroyer in time.

Ducimus and those who enjoy TMO certainly have a valid point here. Personally, I have tried TMO and don't play it. I prefer RFB, exactly for the reason stated in the last sentence of Ducimus' quote above. At the same time, I understand what Ducimus set out to do. What's right for you is a matter of personal taste. As they say, YMMV.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree with everything BigWalleye says above, and can't add much else. I will say this though: Ducimus has said categorically that he is done modding forever and isn't going to touch TMO or any other of his mods again, ever. This means that complaining about it isn't going to change anything. Your choices are learn to like it or try RFB. Or GFO. Or FOTRS.

[AVGWarhawk]

Easier AI for TMO.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3542


:03:

[BillBam]

I agree with everything BigWalleye says above, and can't add much else. I will say this though: Ducimus has said categorically that he is done modding forever and isn't going to touch TMO or any other of his mods again, ever. This means that complaining about it isn't going to change anything. Your choices are learn to like it or try RFB. Or GFO. Or FOTRS.

Or learn to MOD and adjust it to your own preference. Also there are mods out there that adjust some of the factors in the game, search around and see what you can find.

[Armistead]

It's a matter of experience and opinion, many of us found TMO too easy after learning how to defeat the AI and modded TMO to be more difficult.

[merc4ulfate]

There is a TMO with harder AIs ...

I also noticed a huge increase in persistence and aggravation once I had TMO+RSRD+TRAVELLER MODS installed. I do not find it over easy at all.

As far as your closing distances ... I have sat within 1500 yards of a task force without being detected until I fired. Yes I sank battleships and carriers that way and yes the sea state was a big factor in helping me survive without detection but ... I knew it would be. The AI's do not hear as well in a wicked sea state so I take advantage of it. I also have a habit(much to my crews dislike) of lining myself up 800 yards off the enemies course, coming to a full stop, going silent and sitting at periscope depth until I'm ready to fire.

I prefer to be practically run over ... shorter distances to fire means shorter reaction times for the AI. That translates to more tonnage.

Inside the Traveller Mod there is a Mod that sets the AI Escorts Harder. It is inside a folder called "EXTRAS (optional)" This is for TMO+RSRD I do not know if it will work for other mods.

[Armistead]

There is a TMO with harder AIs ...

I also noticed a huge increase in persistence and aggravation once I had TMO+RSRD+TRAVELLER MODS installed. I do not find it over easy at all.

As far as your closing distances ... I have sat within 1500 yards of a task force without being detected until I fired. Yes I sank battleships and carriers that way and yes the sea state was a big factor in helping me survive without detection but ... I knew it would be. The AI's do not hear as well in a wicked sea state so I take advantage of it. I also have a habit(much to my crews dislike) of lining myself up 800 yards off the enemies course, coming to a full stop, going silent and sitting at periscope depth until I'm ready to fire.

I prefer to be practically run over ... shorter distances to fire means shorter reaction times for the AI. That translates to more tonnage.

Inside the Traveller Mod there is a Mod that sets the AI Escorts Harder. It is inside a folder called "EXTRAS (optional)" This is for TMO+RSRD I do not know if it will work for other mods.

The Trav mods changes some of TMO's AI values to make it a tad easier, because aspects of his mod are a tad harder. He includes in the optional mods folder a mod that restores the AI back to TMO's orignal settings.

Also, RSRD in itself makes TMO easier in that in rewriting the campaign settings, the crew ratings are generally lower.

[Fifi]

Thanks. Some interesting reading here.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining about TMO even if it looks like. I love the work that has been done with it.
My career problem so far seems stick to the clear and flat sea not changing for weeks at career start, hence beeing detected almost each time...
Will see how it handles when weather should change!...hopefully.

Have to ask: is RSRDC make any change in weather? (don't think so)
And do we encounter as much ennemies in RSRDC as in TMO alone? (with single merchants)

[Armistead]

Thanks. Some interesting reading here.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining about TMO even if it looks like. I love the work that has been done with it.
My career problem so far seems stick to the clear and flat sea not changing for weeks at career start, hence beeing detected almost each time...
Will see how it handles when weather should change!...hopefully.

Have to ask: is RSRDC make any change in weather? (don't think so)
And do we encounter as much ennemies in RSRDC as in TMO alone? (with single merchants)

RSRD doesn't effect weather.

Many debate less ships in RSRD, which isn't true, it probably has more traffic overall, but it is historic and tends to stay in historic shipping lanes.
Simply, it won't spawn traffic everywhere. The same with single merchants in RSRD, they stick to historic lanes and times.

[Sailor Steve]

Or learn to MOD and adjust it to your own preference.
Yes, there's always that.

("You can't do that! That's not possible! Only a top-notch modder can do that!" Of course that's how Ducimus himself got started modding.)

[les green01]

Trav mods has a weather mod that changes the weather

[TorpX]

I think a big part of the problem is that the underlying game code was poorly done. With significant parts of the sound/detection mechanics busted, Ducimus, the RFB team, or whoever, can only make the best of a bad situation. Ducimus chose to ramp up certain values to make up for shortcomings in the way the game operates. Maybe he went too far, maybe not. The point is that with what Ubisoft provided us, there is no way to get the game to work "right".

[Armistead]

I think it's more than that. I think it's possible to get a more proper balance, but it takes a proper enviroment tweaked to sensors. The tools/values are there, but it takes so much time to fine tune every aspect, but I believe it could be done.

[BigWalleye]

I think a big part of the problem is that the underlying game code was poorly done. With significant parts of the sound/detection mechanics busted, Ducimus, the RFB team, or whoever, can only make the best of a bad situation.


Over on the SH5 forum, there is a modder called The Dark Wraith who has disassembled the sh5.exe file and is learning the inner workings of the code. He has already issued patches for several hard-coded bugs. He has a patcher which modifies the .exe safely without infringing Ubi's copyright. The patched sh5.exe installs with JSGME like any other mod.

I doubt he is interested in trying to port his work to SH4. But there might be someone out there who would want to invest the time and effort in this old dog. (Not me! I hate fixing other people's code!) TDW might be willing to share what he has learned. His patcher opens up a whole new range of possibilities for fixing and improving the game.

[TorpX]

Over on the SH5 forum, there is a modder called The Dark Wraith who has disassembled the sh5.exe file and is learning the inner workings of the code. ....
Yes, I know of TDW and his techniques (in principle, I mean). It would be a big thing if he, or others, could use this to fix-up the game. Unfortunately, SH4 seems to be the red-headed step-child of the SH family. The people who have the ability, lack the desire, and the people who have the desire, lack the ability. :wah:

I've gotten the impression, that this sort of technique is very difficult to master.

[Redmane]

Well, I'm no expert and am still just a bilge rat here at Subsim, but looking at your other thread about TMO I noticed that you are running other mods on top of it, which is definitely recommended against by Ducimus in the manual for TMO itself. I have been running TMO for over a month and haven't had the problems you describe, in fact on a recent restart of my career I took a Porpoise class boat to the Marshalls on my first patrol and got into a good firing position on a Mutsuki DD. I muffed the shot and missed him due to adding too little offset angle to my second torpedo, but a short while later did sink an auxiliary subchaser in the same area, and in neither case was I detected before firing on the target. Now these attacks did occur at night, but the sea state was relatively calm, but having said that much I've been able to get into firing positions on targets during daylight and still remain undetected until torpedo launch. I'm playing on the hard setting as well, so I'm not sure why you are having these issues with the mod, unless it has something to do with other mods running on top of TMO itself.

[knight76]

Just today sunk a light cruiser playing with TMO and RSRD mods only. It was not dark and the sea was not too rough. No rain and minimal fog.

I detected it on radar heading on a near parallel course same direction. Went to flank speed on the surface staying just on the edge of radar range until I reached a point of convergence of paths and sank to 150 rigged for silent running.

Waited it out for the cruiser to appear then come near to my firing position, rose to telescope depth and took a quick look at it (which was the first moment I saw it was a light cruiser), dropped the scope and set up 4 torpedoes, waited a little more then raised scope, fired my fish and dove to run if my attack failed.

One light cruiser less for the Japanese navy.

[Fifi]

Since first post, i get used to TMO warships, and had some success sinking few of them.
But it remains they are very efficient and hard to close. This is the fun of it after all! :D

[TorpX]

But it remains they are very efficient and hard to close. This is the fun of it after all! :D
Yes, I think Ducimus intended for his mod to be fairly difficult. Most of his costumers were asking for that.

[Hinrich Schwab]

TMO was originially designed with challenge in mind. The idea was to amp up the game so as to create the sense of danger and trepidation that a real sub skipper most likely experienced when dealing with the enemy. Because the stock AI was so laughably bad (but not the legendary degree of FaIL of the stock SH5 AI:haha:) that, because of the aforementioned hard coding, the only way to achieve this was to uber the enemy units. TMO is meant to be challenging for its own sake. Conversely, RFB was designed to be as historically accurate as feasible with the game and, despite its own AI mods, appears comparatively easier, especially considering that sufficient familiarity with the Pacific war will give a player a distinct a priori advantage.

If one does not like TMO, either mod it to your taste or try one of the other megamods. There are more than enough choices to suit any player.