The twenty dollar Big Mac

[yubba]

http://inplainsight.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/04/17587032-fast-food-workers-strike-citing-low-wages-its-not-enough?lite workers at fast food joints say they want 15 dollars an hour:har:, so much for the dollar menu, you not happy, get a haircut and get a real job that will pay 15 dollars an hour, not happy with the price of living take it up with the government, they caused this mess. now I'm hungry, so goes the twinkey so might go the dollar whopper jr..

[Wolferz]

That's what happens when college grads are forced to go to work at Mickey D's and Burger King. The article only mentioned in passing the other problem of fast food chains. Most only employ part time workers. Their management probably banks on school age kids and semi retired individuals looking for a boost in their earnings, coupled with their Social Security. The retired crowd can do this but, the young'uns, no way. I have news for them. Fast food is not an ideal career choice.
Most full time jobs got shipped overseas for workers willing to work for peanuts or live on a company campus.

I wish those workers great luck in getting what they want but, like the unions, they may be bargaining themselves right out of a job altogether.:hmmm:

[em2nought]

Your average american isn't worth $15 an hour. :har:

[Feuer Frei!]

Even if they did charge $20 for a Big Mac, i doubt the increase in profits would go towards a pay rise.
I could be wrong. But i doubt it.

[August]

Your average american isn't worth $15 an hour. :har:

I must be above average then.

[Feuer Frei!]

Your average american isn't worth $15 an hour. :har:

Well, people seem to think that they aren't even worth $8.78 p/hr. To me that isn't funny. Especially when people try to survive any way they can.
Sure, it's easy to fob that off and say: get a real job, go out and get a job that pays double that, with society's ever-present pigeon-holing and the fear and often very real continuous knock-backs from applying for those double-the-money jobs.
Depression sets in, the fear of failure, self-doubt, etc etc.
I'm not directing that at you em2nought, just really irks me when ignorant comments like that are made in relation to get a hair cut, get a job.
Newsflash: it ain't that easy.

[CaptainHaplo]

The thing is, how many of the people complaining - like the guy wanting a job in one of the "office buildings" - has the qualifications to get that job on his or her own skills and merit?

Ultimately, might as well just do what this spoof suggests.... pass the Americans with No Abilities Act.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/congress-passes-americans-with-no-abilities-act,541/

So you have a degree? In what? Uhm... Pottery, did you say? And you want to work here, at UBS, as an investment analyst........

Hello, I see you have a degree in African American studies. How will that help you fulfill your duties here at Quantum Networks as a purchasing agent?

Fast food joints are great for retirees and high school kids. If college graduates expect to find a good job upon leaving college, they need to select a field that has demand, not just one they like or that they can skate through.

There is a reason that one old joke goes:

I majored in liberal arts.... now do you want fries with that?

[August]

If college graduates expect to find a good job upon leaving college, they need to select a field that has demand, not just one they like or that they can skate through.

There is a reason that one old joke goes:

I majored in liberal arts.... now do you want fries with that?

Exactly. We as a society value a diploma over the subject it represents then we wonder why the precious little snowflakes can't get a decent paying job from it.

[AVGWarhawk]

Captianhaplo:
Fast food joints are great for retirees and high school kids. If college graduates expect to find a good job upon leaving college, they need to select a field that has demand, not just one they like or that they can skate through.

I agree on the retirees and HS kids for fast food joint. But, a BS is required by most jobs that pay muster. It does not matter what the BS is for. I have a BS in Criminal Justice. I work in transportation. It is not always about a field of high demand however, law enforcement, medicine and education are a few fields in demand. Art History not so much.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, people seem to think that they aren't even worth $8.78 p/hr. To me that isn't funny. Especially when people try to survive any way they can.
Sure, it's easy to fob that off and say: get a real job, go out and get a job that pays double that, with society's ever-present pigeon-holing and the fear and often very real continuous knock-backs from applying for those double-the-money jobs.
Depression sets in, the fear of failure, self-doubt, etc etc.
I'm not directing that at you em2nought, just really irks me when ignorant comments like that are made in relation to get a hair cut, get a job.
Newsflash: it ain't that easy.

No, it is not always that easy. Agreed 100%. I overcame it by getting a second night job working a dock moving freight.

[HundertzehnGustav]

one of the reasons i do not go there any more.
Vote wioth your wallet, and the bottom line is for e i rather eat something different, served(prepared, transported...) by people that get a proper pay.

[Feuer Frei!]

Well, unfortunately that will not solve the issue at hand though.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, unfortunately that will not solve the issue at hand though.

What is the issue? It is a minimum wage job and offered as such. A potential candidate for the position can accept or decline.

[Feuer Frei!]

The issue? It's quiete clear what the issue is. A request for a pay increase.
A perfectly just and reasonable request.
What is also an issue is that some people think these are 'special snowflakes' who should maybe just put up and shut up and deal with the crappy minimum wage, or, if they don't like it, get a haircut and get a real job.
So, there is 2 issues here i think.

[HundertzehnGustav]

True that.
If you have a qualification, then McDo and co are not for you.
If you do NOT have a qualification, these places are for you.

No matter what mcDo claims "management " "mcdonalds university" "individual education" and stuff...
A harsh look at things is:
They be flippin burgers.

I would recommend it to students and kids between 16 and 19.

Its long hours of fast, nervous activity, and a thousand stupid customers a day.
But it is among the lowest level of restauration, and when signing up for it, you have to know it must be a temporary measure.

Like living on Fast Food alone is unhealthy, living off a fast food Pay will get you equally washed down the drain.

Do not eat there, do only work there if you do not depend on the job to pay your bills and life.

fast food can not be a way of life.

[August]

I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

When I was a youngster you either went to college (if you could afford it and had the smarts for it) or you went down to the local factory and applied for a job that you could hold onto for your entire working life without having to learn all that much or really compete to get. One that paid enough to put your kids through college. Perfect for the HS graduate with no great passion for a particular line of work.

But those days are gone now and all that is left for those folks, and there are many, many of them, is low paying service sector jobs that don't offer a living wage.

[AVGWarhawk]

I still do not see a issue. How is asking for a raise a just and reasonable request? Hair and metal hanging out of employees noses, eyebrows and lips mean very little these day. I see it all the time.

[the_tyrant]

The level of automation that goes on in a fast food kitchen nowadays is baffling.

I would actually predict that in the next 10 years or so, MacDonald's would probably shed 50% of their workforce that works in the restaurants.

[CaptainHaplo]

Captianhaplo:
I agree on the retirees and HS kids for fast food joint. But, a BS is required by most jobs that pay muster. It does not matter what the BS is for. I have a BS in Criminal Justice. I work in transportation. It is not always about a field of high demand however, law enforcement, medicine and education are a few fields in demand. Art History not so much.


I work in IT. I have been in the field for a little over 20 years now in one way or the other. I don't have a degree at all. I took a training and skill that was somewhat related, rolled it into a helpdesk job. Today, am the primary IT guy for half a state with a major financial institution - without a degree. You want something, you work for it and get it. You use the skills you have to the best of your ability.

A request for a pay increase. A perfectly just and reasonable request.

Based on what? Their value to the company, or their personal sense of value? Because they are not worth $15 an hour to the company.

What is also an issue is that some people think these are 'special snowflakes' who should maybe just put up and shut up and deal with the crappy minimum wage, or, if they don't like it, get a haircut and get a real job.

And why is that an issue? No one made them take that job. They are offered ways to improve themselves by moving into management - but instead of doing so they are simply out in the street demanding more - instead of behind the counter doing what they are paid to do.

Its a "give me" attitude they are displaying based on their own individual actions, instead of working hard to earn more. Guess what - the American Dream is about success through struggle - not a nice fat paycheck "just because".

[AVGWarhawk]

I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.




Point taken. The manufacturer moved overseas for what reason?

[Wolferz]

Point taken. The manufacturer moved overseas for what reason?

Because the federal government turned the business environment into a red tape mine field? Well, that and employees expecting a living wage. The gall of some people!

[AVGWarhawk]

Because the federal government turned the business environment into a red tape mine field? Well, that and employees expecting a living wage. The gall of some people!


Can we attribute some of this to say...unions? A living wage? What constitutes a living wage? Do all employers offer living wage? If someone expects a living wage perhaps working towards one is the suggested? I used my gall.

[Feuer Frei!]

I still do not see a issue. How is asking for a raise a just and reasonable request? CPI Increases, inflation, award rates reviews, outdated contracts, job performance is above average, customer feedback, increased profits, outdated workplace agreements, and the list goes on. Hair and metal hanging out of employees noses, eyebrows and lips mean very little these day. I see it all the time.
Pardon? What has that got to do with reviewing wages or pay rates? If we are talking about grooming standards at the McDonald's that is mentioned in the article then we would need to see their grooming standards outlined in the employee's handbook. If it is not listed in their handbook that piercings, earrings or untrimmed hair, when serving food is not mentioned as being against the grooming standards, then your comment would be considered discrimitory.
Aperson's skill set is not judged by their piercings or hair, but by how they perform their tasks.




I work in IT. I have been in the field for a little over 20 years now in one way or the other. I don't have a degree at all. I took a training and skill that was somewhat related, rolled it into a helpdesk job. Today, am the primary IT guy for half a state with a major financial institution - without a degree. You want something, you work for it and get it. You use the skills you have to the best of your ability.
Sure, and?
So you are saying that the low-lives should man up and get a real job.
We are back at square one again.
I think that not all is as it seems. Do we really assume that people who are in low-paid service industries are there because they want to be? All of them? Are they there because they want to be? All of them? There may be a raft of reasons why a person works for Maccas. Not all of them are as clear cut as we like think.



Based on what? Their value to the company, or their personal sense of value? Because they are not worth $15 an hour to the company.
See my above comment in reply to AVGWarhawk.
Because they are not worth $15 an hour. Is that your personal belief? How do you know? Do you know what's in their contract or workplace agreement? Do you know what that person or persons that work at the particular store mentioned in the article performance is like? Are you their superior who does performance reviews on them? Are you the person that sets out the award rates for people that work for McDonald's? No?
Ok.



And why is that an issue? No one made them take that job. They are offered ways to improve themselves by moving into management - but instead of doing so they are simply out in the street demanding more - instead of behind the counter doing what they are paid to do.
No no-one has made them take it. That's not my issue. Nor is it anyone else's.
Offered management positions? Well then, obviously they can't be that bad then, to be offered management positions they must have above average performance levels then. And to boot, must be worth more than the $8.72 per hour that is currently offered to them. No?
Also, we are assuming again that every person is able to take on a management position and in turn accept the responsibilities that come with a management position, ie longer hours, more stress, more liability, less time with family, less time to see the specialist or go to the oncologist becaause they need to follow up on their cancer treatment results. Or less time for their chemo or radiation treatments. Or their drug rehab meetings. Or God knows what else might be could be a catalist for these people not accepting the management role.
However does that in your eyes exclude them from a wage increase due for reasons i already mentioned above? I f you say yes, then i'm disappointed.

Its a "give me" attitude they are displaying based on their own individual actions, instead of working hard to earn more. Guess what - the American Dream is about success through struggle - not a nice fat paycheck "just because".
Funny that, i don't get any 'give me' attitude at all from these people. The only sense i'm getting is that it's dam tough to put food on the table for $8.72 per hour. Or dam tough to feed the kids. Or dam tough to provide for loved ones.
Next we move onto your 'fat paycheck'. Laughable. A fat paycheck is what? $15 per hour?
You have to be kidding me right?

[HundertzehnGustav]

And why is that an issue? No one made them take that job. They are offered ways to improve themselves by moving into management - but instead of doing so they are simply out in the street demanding more - instead of behind the counter doing what they are paid to do.


but the work environment made them do take the job. they had no other choice! The world is evil!

But now they want that job to feed them so well that they can keep going there and keep getting paid for it there and live on that job forever.

quite a contradiction.

i know a "dead-end" job when i see one. turned down two positions because they would get me nowhere teach me nothing and stuff.

[AVGWarhawk]

Feuer Fri:
CPI Increases, inflation, award rates reviews, outdated contracts, job performance is above average, customer feedback, increased profits, outdated workplace agreements, and the list goes on.

What is a CPI increase? Inflation is felt by the company that employs people. Not just employees. Award rates reviews? Just what is that? A review on performance? Well, if the performance sucks how can the company justify a raise to the employee? Increased profits. See inflation. Outdated contracts. Since when did minimum wage employees sign a contract? Out dated workplace agreements? Must be something new. Just what agreements do minimum wage employees agree on? The list goes on? The bottom line for most employees is performance. You don't perform you are not awarded a increase in pay.

[Sailor Steve]

Do we really assume that people who are in low-paid service industries are there because they want to be? All of them? Are they there because they want to be? All of them? There may be a raft of reasons why a person works for Maccas. Not all of them are as clear cut as we like think.
I would say it's just the opposite - no one wants to work in fast food. The people who do either aren't qualified to do anything else, or are doing it until an opportunity opens up in their chosen field. The problem is that if prices go up to cover such a raise, people will stop eating there. The people demanding this kind of raise will be the first to go.

Because they are not worth $15 an hour. Is that your personal belief? How do you know? Do you know what's in their contract or workplace agreement? Do you know what that person or persons that work at the particular store mentioned in the article performance is like? Are you their superior who does performance reviews on them? Are you the person that sets out the award rates for people that work for McDonald's? No?
OK.
Are you? From the article it seems to be the belief of the people who are in those positions, and they said so. This means that you are the one on the outside trying to tell them what they should do, not the other way around.

Offered management positions? Well then, obviously they can't be that bad then, to be offered management positions they must have above average performance levels then. And to boot, must be worth more than the $8.72 per hour that is currently offered to them. No?
Yes, the people qualified for those management positions are worth the extra money. You seem to be of the opinion that people not qualified for better positions should get the extra money anyway. Raises go to people who earn them.

However does that in your eyes exclude them from a wage increase due for reasons i already mentioned above? I f you say yes, then i'm disappointed.
You've mentioned a wage increase several times. Maybe you haven't noticed that these entry-level workers aren't asking for an increase. They're asking that the starting wage be doubled. No company can afford to do that.

Funny that, i don't get any 'give me' attitude at all from these people. The only sense i'm getting is that it's dam tough to put food on the table for $8.72 per hour. Or dam tough to feed the kids. Or dam tough to provide for loved ones.
Yes it is. The correct answer is to learn new skills that are worth more money. Employers pay what the service is worth, not what you or anyone else says they should.

Next we move onto your 'fat paycheck'. Laughable. A fat paycheck is what? $15 per hour?
You have to be kidding me right?
Actually that is an outstanding wage for someone with minimal or no job skill. I don't know what world you live in, but I would jump on a job that paid that much. Of course I know people my age who make ten times that or more, but they have a lifetime of service behind them and are actually worth that to their employers.

Again, you get paid what you're worth, not what you demand.

[the_tyrant]

Is an hour of work by the guy flipping burgers at Macdonalds worth any more than minimum wage? Nope, burger flipping is the classic minimum wage job.

Can you support a familly by working as a burger flipper? Nope, you will need more than that.


The debate can go on for hours, which is why i think August here has the right idea:

I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

When I was a youngster you either went to college (if you could afford it and had the smarts for it) or you went down to the local factory and applied for a job that you could hold onto for your entire working life without having to learn all that much or really compete to get. One that paid enough to put your kids through college. Perfect for the HS graduate with no great passion for a particular line of work.

But those days are gone now and all that is left for those folks, and there are many, many of them, is low paying service sector jobs that don't offer a living wage.

But lets be honest here, those jobs are never coming back, not when I can find a university grad, company man, who is willing to work for 3$/hour, who is very competant, and takes pride in his work in Asia.

[mookiemookie]

Regardless of your opinion of the merits of their demands in this particular situation, there are some hard questions and issues that are raised here that the country is going to have to deal with at some point.

There is an ever increasing numbers of lower wage workers that are providing the basic labor and services that keep society going. When this group is unable to find jobs that pay them a living wage, there's going to be a day when they realize that there's strength in numbers. And if they can't get what they want at the negotiating table, they're going to try getting it by force.

You can point fingers and assign blame all you like, but the plain fact of the matter is: get enough people in one place who cannot afford to feed themselves, and violence will happen. To borrow a phrase from GWX: "It has happened before. It will happen again."

[AVGWarhawk]

And if they can't get what they want at the negotiating table, they're going to try getting it by force.



What the....? So we don't get what we want we will take it by force? String up the company owner?

Perhaps we the people will notice that manufacturing jobs that went overseas has caused a problem. Incentives to bring them back might be a good idea. Then again.....


Did You Know...

Manufacturing in the United States produces $1.8 trillion of value each year, or 12.2 percent of U.S. GDP. For every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.48 is added to the economy, the highest multiplier effect of any economic sector.1
Manufacturing supports an estimated 17.2 million jobs in the United States—about one in six private-sector jobs. Nearly 12 million Americans (or 9 percent of the workforce) are employed directly in manufacturing.2
In 2011, the average manufacturing worker in the United States earned $77,060 annually, including pay and benefits. The average worker in all industries earned $60,168.3
Manufacturers in the United States are the most productive in the world, far surpassing the worker productivity of any other major manufacturing economy, leading to higher wages and living standards.4
Manufacturers in the United States perform two-thirds of all private-sector R&D in the nation, driving more innovation than any other sector.5
Taken alone, manufacturing in the United States would be the 10th largest economy in the world.6

http://www.nam.org/Statistics-And-Data/Facts-About-Manufacturing/Landing.aspx

[August]

But lets be honest here, those jobs are never coming back, not when I can find a university grad, company man, who is willing to work for 3$/hour, who is very competant, and takes pride in his work in Asia.

You're right but so is Mookie. We need to find some means to replace the jobs we've lost with something equivalent or we risk destroying our way of life.

[AVGWarhawk]

You're right but so is Mookie. We need to find some means to replace the jobs we've lost with something equivalent or we risk destroying our way of life.

Is there any really major manufacturing company lost in the last 5 years other than in the automobile industry? :hmmm: If not, what jobs then are we looking to replace?

Take a look at factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/03/bidens-manufactured-jobs-claims/

[August]

Is there any really major manufacturing company lost in the last 5 years other than in the automobile industry? :hmmm: If not, what jobs then are we looking to replace?

Why limit it to just 5 years? This trend has been going on since the 70's We can't retrain our way out of this. No matter how motivated and educated people are there just aren't enough jobs to employ all of them.

[AVGWarhawk]

Good article.


A large share of manufacturing jobs was lost in the last decade because the United States lost its competitive edge for manufacturing. It was due to a failure of U.S. policy, not superior productivity.
The loss was cataclysmic and unprecedented, and it continues to severely impact the overall U.S. economy.
Regaining U.S. manufacturing competitiveness to the point where America has balanced its trade in manufacturing products is critical to restoring U.S. economic vibrancy.
Regaining manufacturing competitiveness will create millions of higher-than-average-wage manufacturing jobs, as well as an even greater number of jobs from the multiplier effect on other sectors of the economy.
The United States can restore manufacturing competitiveness and balance manufacturing goods trade within less than a decade if it adopts the right set of policies in what can be termed the “four T’s” (tax, trade, talent, and technology).

http://www.itif.org/publications/worse-great-depression-what-experts-are-missing-about-american-manufacturing-decline

[AVGWarhawk]

Why limit it to just 5 years? This trend has been going on since the 70's We can't retrain our way out of this. No matter how motivated and educated people are there just aren't enough jobs to employ all of them.

The last five years was extremely fluid in job loss as well as closing companies and housing bubble burst. A time when a division between lower wage jobs and high paying wages is very visible.

[August]

The last five years was extremely fluid in job loss as well as closing companies and housing bubble burst. A time when a division between lower wage jobs and high paying wages is very visible.

I don't disagree with that but I wonder what it has to do with recognizing the problem.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't disagree with that but I wonder what it has to do with recognizing the problem.

See post #33. It backs up your assertion here:

August:
I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

When I was a youngster you either went to college (if you could afford it and had the smarts for it) or you went down to the local factory and applied for a job that you could hold onto for your entire working life without having to learn all that much or really compete to get. One that paid enough to put your kids through college. Perfect for the HS graduate with no great passion for a particular line of work.

But those days are gone now and all that is left for those folks, and there are many, many of them, is low paying service sector jobs that don't offer a living wage.

[em2nought]

Sitting on one's posterior waiting for someone else to create a job for you probably won't end well. I guess if cell phones were cheaper people might take the money they had left over and buy a chicken coop, or dig a fish pond, plant a vegetable garden, buy storage units and sell the stuff on craigslist, etc. Sounds like too much work for the average modern day american though.

[August]

See post #33. It backs up your assertion here:

August:

Well I don't know if the answer is to replace manufacturing jobs with new manufacturing jobs. After all even though the reason these jobs went away is that they weren't economically competitive that's not the only obstacle we'd have to overcome to bring them back. Modern technology has severely reduced the need for humans to do them.

I watch a lot of the railroad documentaries from the 40's and 50's and one thing that is readily apparent in all of them is just how labor intensive everything was back then. What took 100 strong men now takes 1 button pusher. So what do we do with the other 99 people?

[AVGWarhawk]

August:
So what do we do with the other 99 people?

Sign them up for a government job!

Robotics has taken people out of the picture. It is a conglomerate of items that has brought us to this juncture. But, still bringing back some manufacturing that went overseas will help. Even so, we still do manufacture quite a bit.

[Madox58]

August:


Sign them up for a government job!




I hear FEMA is looking for people to work in those Death Camps.
:hmmm:

As far as I know you still need someone to clean and maintain the guillotines.
:haha:

[AVGWarhawk]

Those folks have been assigned to the FEMA coffins. A lot to inventory you know. :03:

[Madox58]

Those folks have been assigned to the FEMA coffins. A lot to inventory you know. :03:
:hmmm:
I seen all those videos.
What I can't wrap my head around is if it's all secret?
Why can I see YouTube videos?
:har:
What part of 'YouTube' and 'Secret' just don't mesh?

[Feuer Frei!]

Feuer Fri:
What is a CPI increase? What is CPI Increase? Not sure if serious but let me quickly outline what CPI is. CPI stands for Consumer Price Index. In my country for instance the cpi gets adjusted quarterly. CPI in a nutshell is the measurement of the average price paid for a market basket of goods and services.
Items are bought by 2 groups, namely Urban consumers and Urban wage earners.
Now, what has the cpi got to do with the cost of hiring someone to flip burgers at Maccas? Well, apart from inflation, which i will cover shortly, cpi adjustments are used by escalation agreements, escalation contracts ask for an increase in types of payments made when an increase of prices occurs (cpi adjustments).
An adjustment of wage rates also is included here.
These are called collective bargaining agreements. CPI increases drive costs like rent, housing, food, goods, services and more. To compensate for the increase in living costs, wage rates are adjusted. Quiete simple really. Not getting a cpi increase, regularly, is actually almost a stealth pay cut. If you follow me.
CPI increases are there to cover inflation. I think you call it indexing in your Country. So do we.

Inflation is felt by the company that employs people. Not just employees. Agreed, however that's not the points i'm trying to raise.
Although, inflation also has something to do with annual wage increases.

Award rates reviews? Just what is that? Here (http://www.fwc.gov.au/index.cfm?pagename=wagereview2012&page=determination) or Here (http://www.fwc.gov.au/index.cfm?pagename=minabout) Granted, i'm talking about Australia here, but you get the idea. Not sure if the States have that? I'd be extremely surprised if not. I would imagine the US Dept of Labour-Wage and Hour Division would be involved in that perhaps.

Outdated contracts. Since when did minimum wage employees sign a contract? Again, i am talking about my country. Granted, i should be using examples that are applicable to the country of origin for the article. Out dated workplace agreements? Must be something new. Granted, one should never allow a contract or workplace agreement to become outdated, but it does happen. Once again, i used my country as an example.
The bottom line for most employees is performance. You don't perform you are not awarded a increase in pay.Wrong. It seems you want to talk about wage rate increaes yet you also want to talk about someone not performing well in their jobs so they aren't qualified to obtain a wage increase? Well, if the case you make is that a person that's on a minimum wage doesn't perform and they aren't entitled to a wage increase, then what are they doing there still? In fact, the article mentions nothing of poor performance. Or does it? So, we come back to wage increases, cpi, inflation, workplace bargaining agreements, annual wage rate reviews, and so forth.
You don't perform, you don't get a pay rise? I don't understand what that has to do with the point i'm trying to make that every, yes every working person in America is entitled to pay rises, reviewed annually, in line with indexing and inflation.
I am talking about minimum wage per hour, no bonuses, no tips, no allowances, nothing, just the minimum amount you get paid. Or in better terms, the base rate.

Further, indexing the minimum wage means adjusting it annually to keep pace with rising costs of living. But i've already outlined that. CPI.
In 2011, just as an example, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington saw their minimum wages automatically go up by 9 to 12 cents.
The minimum wage at Maccas does not take into account rising prices.
After adjusting for inflation, the minimum wage is about $3.30 less than it was in 1968. Back then—forty-five years ago—the minimum wage was $10.56 an hour, according to a very useful chart (http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/02/14/minimum-wage-history/) from CNNMoney.
There we have inflation, and how it ties in with cpi and wage rates.
Here's a good read on a study that was done 20-odd years ago on fast food outlets, minimum wage rates and increases, and how employers felt about that http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

When workers are paid more, they tend to work harder, and quit less readily. Firms, knowing they can’t simply rely on low wages, have an incentive to invest in new equipment and training programs. All of these things can boost productivity, which is the lynchpin of prosperity.
President Obama noted in his speech (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/12/transcript-obama-state-union-speech/), “a family with two kids that earns the minimum wage still lives below the poverty line. That’s wrong.” And he’s right.


Are you? From the article it seems to be the belief of the people who are in those positions, and they said so. This means that you are the one on the outside trying to tell them what they should do, not the other way around.
Not at all Steve, i was referring to another poster with that comment, for it seemed that they were in that position.

You seem to be of the opinion that people not qualified for better positions should get the extra money anyway. When it has to do with annual wage reviews, indexing and inflation, then a wage rate increase is not only fair but just, to meet the increased costs.
Raises go to people who earn them.Yes of course, but i think somewhere along the line wires were crossed with other members and perhaps i didn't make myself clear, i wasn't talking about performance-based increases in payment. Or bonuses, allowances or any other money on top of the minimum rate of pay for these workers. I was, and am talking about the minimum wage and how that should be adjusted annually if not half-yearly, which it is in this country, to meet the rising costs of living caused by the cpi, or indexing.
Once again, i made the mistake of using my country as an example, which is not being realistic.
But you get what i mean.

Yes it is. The correct answer is to learn new skills that are worth more money. Employers pay what the service is worth, not what you or anyone else says they should.Well learning new skills is not the issue here since emplyees seem to be 'management' material, or so i read it.
Yes, employers pay what people are worth, but we must be careful to ensure what the employer pays is also the award rate. Paying the correct amount to a employee is law. Once again, we are not talking about performance-based bonuses, or raises dependent on someone's amazing skill set at work.
We are, or at least i was, talking about the minimum award rate. There is no way out for an employer to NOT pay that. Nothing to do with performance.

Actually that is an outstanding wage for someone with minimal or no job skill. I don't know what world you live in, but I would jump on a job that paid that much. U.S. minimum wage is low compared to its counterparts in other advanced countries. In France and Ireland, for example, the minimum remuneration level is more than eleven dollars an hour. Even in Great Britain, which is usually regarded as a country with a flexible, U.S.-style labor market, it is close to ten dollars an hour. Another informative chart (http://www.businessinsider.com/minimum-wage-europe-2011-2), this one from Business Insider, shows that the U.S. minimum wage is comparable to ones in places like Greece, Spain, and Slovenia—countries where G.D.P. per capita and labor productivity are markedly lower than in the United States. You have an advanced economy but a middle-level minimum wage.
That chart is 2011, however, At the current $7.25 rate, full-time workers earning minimum wage make an annual $14,500, while the federal poverty level for a family of two is $15,130. Some have argued (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112402) that Obama should have called for an even higher wage floor — he promised $9.50 in his 2008 campaign — but regardless, the United States has one of the lowest minimum wages among developed economies.
Her's a more recent chart:
http://i.imgur.com/R1u0vAi.gif

I'm in Australia, and as you can see, $15 p/hr is not a big deal, so to speak for us Aussies.
Now, i wouldn't call any of that minimum wage, letalone the $15 p/hr they are asking for, a fat pay cheque? Would you, after seeing the facts that i linked with charts above?
Some of the major economies in Europe also pay well above the U.S. minimum. France just raised its minimum wage to €9.43, or $12.68 an hour, while workers in the U.K. are paid at least £6.11, or about $9.50.
Hell, even Canada gets more, although they don't have a minimum national wage, workers must be paid at least 9.75 Canadian dollars, or $9.73, an hour, while workers in Yukon get at least $10.27.
Obama proposed a national hike of minmum wages to $9 US, but even then it would leave the US trailing above-mentioned counterparts.


Again, you get paid what you're worth, not what you demand.Again, that is not what i'm trying to get across. Probably my fault in not making myself concise enough in the first place.

[CaptainHaplo]

If it is not listed in their handbook that piercings, earrings or untrimmed hair, when serving food is not mentioned as being against the grooming standards, then your comment would be considered discrimitory. A person's skill set is not judged by their piercings or hair, but by how they perform their tasks.

Actually - a person's appearance actually is part of the standard by which they are judged - and such judgment is perfectly legal. An employee is expected to represent the company - and while the company may not choose to restrict the right to wear things like nose rings or ear gauges that you could drive a Buick through, the individual manager has every right to determine whether or not such accoutrements present the desired presentation appropriately. Its just like the whole uniform issue - most restaurants mandate that one be worn. Some however (apparently) do not mandate that the shirt be tucked in. If that is the case - then it is up to the discretion of the management come review time to determine who better "represents", and reward accordingly.

So you are saying that the low-lives should man up and get a real job.

I didn't call anyone a "low life" - you did. Why insult them? Unless your talking about the two real world lowlifes that they mentioned by name - which I deal with them at the end of this post....

We are back at square one again.
No we aren't - these people never left square one because they haven't chosen to actually invest in themselves enough to make their life better. Instead of whining about how they can't make ends meet on a part time job.

I think that not all is as it seems. Do we really assume that people who are in low-paid service industries are there because they want to be? All of them?

I made no such claim - I have no idea why you even think I did.

Because they are not worth $15 an hour. Is that your personal belief?
No - its because the job they are tasked to do is not worth getting done at $15 an hour to the company that provides said job.

How do you know?
That is easy. If it was worth $15 dollars an hour to get it done - then the going rate would not be minimum wage.

Do you know what's in their contract or workplace agreement? They were wanting to unionize if my memory serves what the article says - so they wouldn't have a contract.

Do you know what that person or persons that work at the particular store mentioned in the article performance is like?
I don't need to, because if your in a position that maxes out at say.... $9.50 an hour, that is the most your going to get in that position. If you excel, you get promoted to a new one where the pay scale increases... That is how it works, you see....

Are you their superior who does performance reviews on them? Are you the person that sets out the award rates for people that work for McDonald's? No?

Nope to either of those - nor does it matter because McDonald's, like pretty much 95+% of non-union business in this country, works on a fairly standard corporate model when dealing with employees. I know how that structure works, and thus know why the people are whistling in a tornado trying to double their wages.

No no-one has made them take it. That's not my issue. Nor is it anyone else's.

Ok, so lets get this straight... You agree they took a low ceiling job knowing it was a low ceiling job unless they really excel, but your ok with them just saying "screw it, it shouldn't be a low ceiling job - give us more because we want it"? So why don't you go in tomorrow and tell your boss that your job sucks and you should get a 100% raise?

Offered management positions? Well then, obviously they can't be that bad then, to be offered management positions they must have above average performance levels then. And to boot, must be worth more than the $8.72 per hour that is currently offered to them. No?

No - McDonalds offers training for any crew member - however they have to take it and show by their incentive and effort and performance that they deserve to move up. Again - work hard and make it happen - instead of crossing the counter and holding a picket sign....

Also, we are assuming again that every person is able to take on a management position and in turn accept the responsibilities that come with a management position, ie longer hours, more stress, more liability, less time with family, less time to see the specialist or go to the oncologist becaause they need to follow up on their cancer treatment results. Or less time for their chemo or radiation treatments. Or their drug rehab meetings. Or God knows what else might be could be a catalist for these people not accepting the management role.

:har: No, your assuming that everyone has done all the training but can't take the job because they have cancer or some other deadly thing or they have a family to spend time with. Did you happen to notice that they want $15 bucks an hour for PART TIME jobs? Hey, that 20 hr. workweek really gets in the way of my cancer treatments that I do with my kids.... Or was it playing Xbox?


However does that in your eyes exclude them from a wage increase due for reasons i already mentioned above? I f you say yes, then i'm disappointed.

No, what excludes them from a wage increase is simple market realities - they are doing a job that is not worth more than minimum wage to get done....

Funny that, i don't get any 'give me' attitude at all from these people. The only sense i'm getting is that it's dam tough to put food on the table for $8.72 per hour. Or dam tough to feed the kids. Or dam tough to provide for loved ones.

Funny that - I heard none of them say that the job that they do is actually WORTH more than what they get paid to do it. Instead we get a lot of complaining that it isn't enough. The reason its a "Give Me" attitude is because we don't hear them say the deserve it for the performance or the "long" 8 hr shifts they work (all of three days a week). We hear it because its not enough to support a woman and her "extended" family of seven... Maybe some of them should start workin at Mickey D's too then.... even have someone take a managers job so they will quit makin babies? Wow - once again - personal responsibility - dang that is so outta style.

As for ole Alterique Hall - you know - the guy who "has to rely on his grandmother for meals"? - well - not only does he want a raise, but he seems to not be needing so much really since his facebook account talks about how he "got his food stamps" and he gets a paycheck too?

Next we move onto your 'fat paycheck'. Laughable. A fat paycheck is what? $15 per hour? You have to be kidding me right?

I didn't say what a fat paycheck is. A "fat" paycheck for ole Alterique Hall seems to be 650G's, once again per his facebook....

https://www.facebook.com/iflush1

Now - to me, a fat pay check is one in which you didn't earn the money that is in it - ie. you got paid a greater amount than the work you did was worth. So - if your flipping burgers, yes a $15/hr paycheck would be "fat". If your flying an cargo plane cross country in an ice storm, I'd call that same check pretty darn "lean".

Seriously - these morons calling for some gift of more money for doing a job that isn't worth what they want - can cry me a river. The ones that choose to support deadbeats who won't work themselves, or people who cry about a lack of food and get food stamps, a paycheck and want a huge payday from a lawsuit to boot - make me sick.

The reality? If you want to support yourself (and possibly someone else or your kids or something) - don't work a PART TIME job and expect that to pay all the bills. You gotta be on crack or something to think that would work. And people wonder why drug testing welfare recipients enters some people's heads.... :/\\!!

[Feuer Frei!]

Actually - a person's appearance actually is part of the standard by which they are judged - and such judgment is perfectly legal. Define judging. Actually don't. I know what judging is. In what context. Who is doing the judging? You? Me? The employer? The customer?
Once we've figured that out, then we can proceed whether or not discrimination comes into it. But to make a 'throw-away' remark at the end of a post, totally out of context, to me at least, is why the word discrimination was mentioned. Because this: I still do not see a issue. How is asking for a raise a just and reasonable request? Hair and metal hanging out of employees noses, eyebrows and lips mean very little these day. I see it all the time.

An employee is expected to represent the company - and while the company may not choose to restrict the right to wear things like nose rings or ear gauges that you could drive a Buick through, the individual manager has every right to determine whether or not such accoutrements present the desired presentation appropriately. Of course, and? Now you are talking about grooming standards.We are getting away from your first point that you alluded me to, which was the question of when judging becomes discrimination. Its just like the whole uniform issue - most restaurants mandate that one be worn. Some however (apparently) do not mandate that the shirt be tucked in. No, some don't, we are still talking about grooming standards, which is pointless because every establishment has different standards. And also fruitless since that is not what you originally pulled me up on. If that is the case - then it is up to the discretion of the management come review time to determine who better "represents", and reward accordingly.
Really? Well, you're talking to a Restaurant Manager with 10 years' experience now. Staff under me were required to wear the company uniform, including name badge and their 'tools' of the trade, ie waiter's friend, pen, notepad, apron (in most cases). That were the basics. Without talking about nail polish, make-up, shoes, ear-rings, piercings, colour in hair, etc etc. But, again we aren't talking about grooming standards, since that isn't what you pulled me up on. In all my time as Restaurant Manager i have never ever paid someone more than what they are entitled to, which is to say, more than the base rate, if they have excelled at their job during a busy service period. Or have i paid them more than they are entitled to if they wore their uniform to work for that shift.Why? Because here we have a minimum award rate, governed by the state that you work in, which is in turn governed by the Federal Government.
Now i don't know what the restaurant staff in the US get paid extra for wearing their uniform correctly. Which should be part of the job requirement anyhow. I'm scratching my head here.
If you said to me what has all this to do with grooming and not discrimination, and why am i talking about grooming, even though i know that will not address your initial pulling-up post, then it is because you use the words "standards" and "represents", "presentation", "wear" and "appearance". I've probably missed a few.
Actually, after re-reading your first part of this, i think you mean a person is judged on how they dress, as in uniform at the establishment from customers or other staff or management. Ie, the customer may say: gee what a shabby employee that is, look how he is dressed, what sort of a place is this? Or other staff may say: wow, look at John, how come he gets away with piercings and ear-rings and his shirt out when we have to have our shirt tucked in?
Or management might say: gee, i'm going to have to talk to John about his dress code, he's really slipping.
Now in a perfect world, those comments by the customer, the other staff and management is acceptable, as in, no immediate appearance of discrimination made.
Just some remarks about someone's appearance. But, we don't live in a perfect world, and all too often i have seen the above comments i gave from the 3 parties turn into these:
Customer: Crap, look at this guy, he has metal in his face, i'm not getting served by him, no f'in way! Other staff: Hey John, you're a freak! Management: (At the job interview, providing the staff handbook does not mention the prohibition of piercings, hair colouring, tattoos, and let me tell you, jobs exist where you are more than entitled to wear such art) No way i'm hiring this guy, look at him, he looks like crap, he looks like scum and i bet he wouldn't be able to perform his tasks as well as my 'clean, unpierced, un-tattooed and non-alternative staff members.
So there we have it, judging. Any way you slice and dice that, it's judging. And discrimination.
Fyi, since you now know what i do career-wise, yes, i've hired plenty of alternative people, that could do the job better than a staff member that i had on my books, who was non-alternative. Yes, i've had numerous occasions with mu superiors that that person who has tattoos and a piercing which i hired the week before can do an awesome job. And yes, i've re-written many staff handbooks, moreso the grooming standards, to incorporate just such people. All too many times i see judgemnts meted out against people like this and it irritates me to no end.
Don't judge a book by its cover. It's an oldie but a dam goody.


I didn't call anyone a "low life" - you did. I did, no disputing that Why insult them? Admittedly, i should have known better to use a throw-away term like that, because it can be misconstrued online. I used the term in frustration because i took this comment of yours I work in IT. I have been in the field for a little over 20 years now in one way or the other. I don't have a degree at all. I took a training and skill that was somewhat related, rolled it into a helpdesk job. Today, am the primary IT guy for half a state with a major financial institution - without a degree. You want something, you work for it and get it. You use the skills you have to the best of your ability. which i saw as a little condescending. As if to say, well, look at me, look at what i've done aren't i wonderful and everyone else should follow my lead. The term was used, not because i believe they are, far from it, but i used it in a sarcastic way. I admit it was a error on my behalf.

No we aren't - these people never left square one because they haven't chosen to actually invest in themselves enough to make their life better. Instead of whining about how they can't make ends meet on a part time job.
Well we are at square 1 with this quote because firstly, they aren't whining, and secondly, protesting has benefits.
You perceive them as whiners, that's harsh. You've never wanted to be heard about anything in life? Never had grievances? Everything's always been rosy and dandy for you? In the work place i mean, since this is a protest about wages.
Sure, you may not perceive protesting to be the outlet for your work frustrations, or if you wanted to be heard about concerns you have about working conditions, pay rates or some such, you wouldn't protest. Or whine, as you put it.
Seriously, i apologized above about maybe perceiving you post about your work history wrongly, but then you come out with the word 'whining'.
Yep, protesting about fairer wage rates is whining.
Yep, get a education and get a better paying job. Sure, that's what you did, so it will all be fine.


No - its because the job they are tasked to do is not worth getting done at $15 an hour to the company that provides said job.
Maybe not $15 p/hr but certainly a wage rate review needs to take place to bring the US in line with western european and also Japanese rates of pay for working at Maccas.
Hence the whining, errr, protesting by these people


They were wanting to unionize if my memory serves what the article says - so they wouldn't have a contract.
Forming or joining a union in the workplace does not mean you don't have to sign a contract. Depending on the type of union and the establishment you would work for.
Unions do not exempt you from having to sign bargaining agreements or contracts.


why the people are whistling in a tornado trying to double their wages. Well, let's hope they get a fair go. Goes back to waht i said before about bringing this inline with western europe and japan rates of pay.



Ok, so lets get this straight... but your ok with them just saying "screw it, it shouldn't be a low ceiling job - give us more because we want it"?[/QUOTE]I wouldn't be ok with it. If i in fact said that, which i didn't. And it's not what they are protesting about. It will still be a low ceiling job, even if they get a pay rise. Whatever that amount will be. Give us more because we want it? Where did that come from? Is that your summation from the article? Are you assuming that that is what they are saying?
No where in that article do i see one of them saying give me more because i want it.
What infact is there, is "a request for an increase in the minimum wage" via a national protest.
I think your perception of the article is not realisitic.


So why don't you go in tomorrow and tell your boss that your job sucks and you should get a 100% raise?
I've done that. I've had battles with HR and superiors in the past, remonstrating that my job sucks, as in unsafe and unhygienic work areas, trouble-some staff, drugs on the premises, out of date food, fighting by staff on the premises, physical and sexual violence towards female staff members....yea, i've certainly done that before. I put my foot down and we worked things out quickly.
Oh and i forgot to mention, yes, i've approached bosses before about pay increases. Not increase to base rate, because the boss isn't responsible for setting that, but, bonuses, extra allowances. Absolutely.
And your point is?


Again - work hard and make it happen - instead of crossing the counter and holding a picket sign....
Seems to me you have something against people who protest? Or is it just people that aren't as hard-working or as educated as you?
That's the impression i'm getting, because it comes up a lot the hard work and whatnot. Judging people who are in the service industry. I've had plenty of that sort of croud in my establishments before, over the years. People who don't have the abilities, whether mental or physical or financial to obtain an education and to further their prospects of career ladder ascension.
Why is it such a bother to you that they are protesting? Does it irritate you that you had to work for something in your life and they don't?
Gee i hope not.



No, what excludes them from a wage increase is simple market realities - they are doing a job that is not worth more than minimum wage to get done....
Aha. So exclusion even when indexing, inflation and annual award reviews occur?
Right.
When reviews of minimum wage rates are done annually and bringing minimum wages inline with the cpi increases and the western european countries and japan as an example in relation to McDonald's wages for that type of job.
Thank god for minimum wage rate reviews, thank god for cpi increases, otherwise stealth pay declines would be a reality. Which in some cases occur.



Funny that - I heard none of them say that the job that they do is actually WORTH more than what they get paid to do it. What has that got to do with me saying: Funny that i don't get the " give me attitude" from the article? Instead we get a lot of complaining that it isn't enough. It isn't. As i outlined in post number 43. The reason its a "Give Me" attitude is So there is a give me attitude? because we don't hear them say the deserve it for the performance or the "long" 8 hr shifts they work (all of three days a week). No. We hear it because of your next quote:We hear it because its not enough to support a woman and her "extended" family of seven... Just just 1 reason. Maybe some of them should start workin at Mickey D's too then.... Is their minimum wage rate better? even have someone take a managers job so they will quit makin babies? Wow - once again - personal responsibility - dang that is so outta style.
Yes of course, now we are getting judgmental again.


As for ole Alterique Hall - you know - the guy who "has to rely on his grandmother for meals"? - well - not only does he want a raise, but he seems to not be needing so much really since his facebook account talks about how he "got his food stamps" and he gets a paycheck too?
He can get both? Blame the government for that.




Seriously - these morons[/QUOTE] And there we have it. Morons. calling for some gift of more money for doing a job that isn't worth what they want - can cry me a river. They irritate you don't they? No idea why. The ones that choose to support deadbeats who won't work themselves, Deadbeats. Maybe the term low-life should have been used by you? Would you rather they not support the deadbeats, as you put it, and that you, the tax payer supports them? or people who cry about a lack of food and get food stamps, a paycheck Is that in that guy's facebook? I didn't check it. and want a huge payday from a lawsuit to boot The hell? Lawsuit? Where did that come from? make me sick.
I know they do. You've certainly demonstrated that already.

The reality? Sometimes isn't as easy as that. You gotta be on crack or something to think that would work.Maybe they are? Since they support deadbeats and are crying a river of tears and whine and make one sick.