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View Full Version : Your money's no longer safe


Skybird
03-26-13, 09:02 AM
An inflation of "only" 5% means that you lose half of your savings in 15 years.

We all already get robbed and ripped of, with the robbers even being voted into office to give them the opportunity to legalise their crimes.

Stupid voters, I call that! Instead of voting yourself into doom, burn down the parliaments, I say. But that is considered to be uncivilized, so its better to ruin our fates instead and be a well-behaved obedient victim, that is civil - okay, go voting, every ballot helps.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/commentary-on-impact-of-euro-crisis-on-european-savers-a-890789.html


An essential summary of what it comes down to by the end of the day.


Germans are right to be worried about their savings because the euro bailouts will make most of them poorer in the long term -- through higher inflation and lower payouts from life insurance and pension schemes. Why can't crisis-hit nations follow the Cypriot example and make rich depositors pay a share?

Nearly half of all Germans fear for their savings -- and with good reason. At times like these, the only thing that is certain is that nothing is certain.

Not even savings accounts are safe, as was recently seen in Cyprus. Such deposits are actually guaranteed to up to €100,000, but the euro rescuers cared little about this as they desperately searched for funds. Cypriot small savers may have escaped this time around, but the realization remains, even beyond Cyprus, that a state teetering on the edge of bankruptcy will resort to all available means to raise money -- and a guarantee is only worth something as long as the entity that stands behind it remains solvent.

Nothing is safe from being seized by the state, no savings account, but also no house or apartment. The Germans experienced this after World War II, when they were charged an extra real estate tax in the form of compulsory mortgages. Governments have even banned the possession of gold during currency crises, forcing citizens to exchange the precious metal for the national currency.

So far, people in the debt-ridden countries of the euro zone haven't had such levies imposed on them. But why not? According to a recent study by Germany's central bank, the Bundesbank, for instance, Spaniards hold more wealth, on average, than Germans.

Greece and Cyprus have millionaires and billionaires of whom many profited from the artificial boom fueled by low interest rates after the introduction of the euro -- a boom that subsequently went bust. Why shouldn't they help finance efforts to deal with the aftermath? Is it fairer to place the burden on the euro bailout fund, and thus distribute it among the taxpayers of other countries?

A levy on assets would immediately reduce the debts of crisis-stricken countries, whereas bailout packages pool risks and shift them to the future.

Those risks can become dangerously explosive. The more countries that have to be bailed out, the fewer countries remain that have to bear the burden -- as long as they are able to. This could even prove to be too much for Germany at some point.

There is no reason to panic. But Germans should be concerned. After all, the bill for managing the euro crisis will ultimately have to be paid, and they will have to shoulder a large portion of this.

If the bailout fails, the bill will be enormous. But no one should succumb to the illusion that the mission won't cost anything if it succeeds.

Germans' savings are already shrinking in real terms because the European Central Bank (ECB) has flooded the market with money and lowered interest rates to nearly zero. Many Germans have already noted with dismay that their life and retirement insurance policies will pay out much less than what was originally promised. Many of them now realize that they will have to tighten their belts when they retire.

Economists have a term for this form of creeping expropriation: They call it financial repression. Actually, given the current situation, it's amazing that only just under half of all Germans are worried about their money.

Things could actually get worse when the large quantity of money that the ECB is printing to finance the euro rescue starts to drive up prices. An annual inflation rate of only four to five percent, which economists say is entirely probable, would reduce people's savings by 50 percent within just 15 years.

But while inflation eats up savings, it also reduces debts. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to suspect that this is precisely what many politicians are hoping for. After all, how else should the euro countries, but also the US, Britain and Japan, ever shrug off the crushing weight of their debts?

The outlook is grim for savers, who are caught in a trap. Only genuinely wealthy individuals can place their money in the hands of a fund manager, who can spread the risk and find safe havens by investing on different continents and in different types of assets.

Not surprisingly, some people will emerge from the euro crisis having increased their assets, or at least maintained them -- while the vast majority will be significantly poorer.


Fight them while you still can. Don't wait until you've been crushed and defeated, claiming that only then you could know for sure that they indeed meant you harm. When you're done, you're done. A fool is everybody who voluntarily waits until then. Laws will not save you - they make them. Freedom will not save you - they have taken it away from you. Elections will not save you - all options you can chose from supports their playing rules. Democracy will not save you - it makes it all worse and worse.

Learn to understand that you need to break the rules. These rules are there to keep you in captivity and make you a defenceless victim. Play by the rules, and lose. Respect the authorities, and they will legally rob you. Stay loyal to the system, and it will chew you and spit you out.

AVGWarhawk
03-26-13, 09:42 AM
Has it really ever been safe? :hmmm:

Armistead
03-26-13, 10:49 AM
Nothing really changes. As in the past, big business, banks, the very rich often become that way not from work or selling anything, but through shady means. Take our big bank bailout, the money was mostly to be used to help the middle class and small business, but they took it and invested it where they could increase their bottom line. Today the stock market is great, but the middle class continues to suffer. It will all eventually implode again, they know this and know how to get even richer during the crisis. The banks got bailed out, took millions of homes and invested most the money in overseas markets. Now home prices are going up and they'll make lots of money on the homes they sat on.

I agree with Gates, Buffet, Trump, etc., were headed for a two class nation, where about 10% hold 80% of all real wealth and 80% will be right at the poverty line.

Obama isn't doing anything to help the middle class, his plans lets the riche get richer, just expects them to give more free stuff to the poor. The GOPs plan is no different, except no freebies for the poor, let them die out. No one has a plan to secure a thriving middle class. It's just a matter of time until our economy fails again under the mass of debt. The time will come we won't be able to solve it by more debt and we'll see a depression unlike ever before. About every leading economist agrees.

Tribesman
03-26-13, 11:05 AM
Has it really ever been safe?
No.
Banks, pensions, insurance, property, gold, silver, wheat....its all a gamble, always has been always will be.

BossMark
03-26-13, 11:18 AM
My money as never been safe since I can hardly walk past a bookies without having to calling in :D

STEED
03-26-13, 11:34 AM
The true inflation figure in the UK is 5% but due to manipulation a false figure is put out.

Example on the lies in the UK

Slightly off topic..each month the Office of National Statics releases the unemployment figures and each month from Nov12-Feb13 they said unemployment fell and they did revised figures also said it fell bigger but only last week the ONS said unemployment for Nov12-Jan13 was in fact up! You tell me how?

Back on topic

So if they can get away with it so can the Banks...Wait minute they have and continual to lie. Its all going to pot people.

Wolferz
03-26-13, 11:38 AM
The whole bloody mess is just a Ponzi scheme. Destined to implode on itself no matter what is done.
A house of cards can not stand up to the winds of change.

STEED
03-26-13, 12:20 PM
Ben Bernanke Takes Questions At Federal Reserve Press Conference

3:00 PM: We are not targeting asset prices or measuring our success by the stock market. While the Dow may be hitting a high, it's in nominal terms and not real terms. I don't think it's all that surprising that the market would rise, given the increased optimism in the economy, and profits are high.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/fomc-press-conference-march-2013-3#ixzz2OfRHZF55

Was that a slip? :hmmm:

Garion
03-26-13, 01:34 PM
What are these 'savings' yoo speak of?

I'll get my coat :D

Cheers

Gary

AVGWarhawk
03-26-13, 01:40 PM
Was that a slip? :hmmm:

I don't know if that was a slip, but, if you look at just the stock market alone as a indicator one would conclude the economy is good.

HundertzehnGustav
03-26-13, 01:44 PM
no savings here.
he who only has money is the poorest of all.

Jimbuna
03-26-13, 06:50 PM
Well, using that logic I'd certainly feel happy being the poorest person on this forum :)

STEED
03-26-13, 07:03 PM
Well, using that logic I'd certainly feel happy being the poorest person on this forum :)

Get behind me rich man. :haha:

Skybird
03-26-13, 08:05 PM
Money may not be everything in life, but try to do without it.

Gold will be traded when steel coins and paper notes are no longer, and having something of value to trade helps to get food, shelter, and more.

Philosophic deep insights into the transitory nature of things will not help you to bypass the very real necessities of ordinary life once it stands before you and bites you in your face.

AndyJWest
03-26-13, 08:28 PM
Skybird, you can't eat gold. Expecting something of little intrinsic use-value to be regarded as 'wealth' in a situation of economic collapse is foolish.

the_tyrant
03-26-13, 08:46 PM
My dad is a professional investor. In his opinion, money that you own that you do not plan on spending or investing is money that you are throwing away.

Remember, inflation will eat your money away. spend it or invest it.

Asian people often have this "save all your money" mentality. And that mentality screwed a lot of them over so to speak.

In high-growth markets like China, inflation is rampant. Thus, you really need to invest it into something. The good thing is, these markets often have a very solid stock market or government bonds.

In slower growth markets, inflation isn't as bad, but there are still many very solid investments that you can invest in. You still shouldn't just throw your money into a bank. Look into bonds, stable stocks that pay dividends, or something like that.

The only time when you should throw your money in a bank is when your currency is deflating. Other than that, invest it in something, or spend it!

Oberon
03-26-13, 10:39 PM
When I read some of Skybirds posts I can't help but be reminded of a young Vladimir Ilyich Ulanov, calling on the people to take control of their wealth, to reject and burn down their oppressors.

And we all know how well that turned out.... :hmmm:

August
03-26-13, 10:43 PM
I bought forest with my money. Hopefully it will bring in a fair amount of money from logging for retirement.

Oberon
03-26-13, 10:48 PM
I bought forest with my money. Hopefully it will bring in a fair amount of money from logging for retirement.

:yep: A good investment. No matter how cheap electricity may get in the future, there will always be a demand for open fires and wood to go on them. Not to mention wood for environmentally friendly buildings and so forth.
That's the beauty of wood, unlike coal and oil, if done right it's sustainable over a shorter period.

Tribesman
03-27-13, 02:49 AM
I can't help but be reminded of a young Vladimir Ilyich Ulanov
All extremists end up sounding the same.

Skybird
03-27-13, 06:02 AM
My dad is a professional investor. In his opinion, money that you own that you do not plan on spending or investing is money that you are throwing away.

Remember, inflation will eat your money away. spend it or invest it.

Asian people often have this "save all your money" mentality. And that mentality screwed a lot of them over so to speak.

In high-growth markets like China, inflation is rampant. Thus, you really need to invest it into something. The good thing is, these markets often have a very solid stock market or government bonds.

In slower growth markets, inflation isn't as bad, but there are still many very solid investments that you can invest in. You still shouldn't just throw your money into a bank. Look into bonds, stable stocks that pay dividends, or something like that.

The only time when you should throw your money in a bank is when your currency is deflating. Other than that, invest it in something, or spend it!
The problem is we cannot all be economy experts and cannot all know which stocks to buy and which better to avoid. In the end, the stockmarket also is just a casino and as vulnerable as anything else. The only difference is that stock papers are put into a safe and cannot be stolen by the state .

And if the state makes a law expropriating industries, then you are the same kind of victim like owners of paper money.

What needs to be understood is that the politicians in power WILL DO EVERYTHING to delay the collapse of their playground for as long as possible. As long as there are states, people will get lied to, will get betrayed and will get robbed by the state.

The mere existence of states is at the heart of problems. How those running the state came to power, whether by crime and coup d'etat or by elections or by feudal heritage, is unimportant.

Not to mention that it is rarely the ordinary people but states declaring new wars.

If you think it consequently through, you realize that the often praised market economy and the idealised image of capitalism, and the existence of states, are mutually exclusive. The ideal of the first needs the absence of the latter. The state limits and steals private property. But the guarantee of private property is the very basis of any free society.

Skybird
03-27-13, 06:11 AM
:yep: A good investment. No matter how cheap electricity may get in the future, there will always be a demand for open fires and wood to go on them. Not to mention wood for environmentally friendly buildings and so forth.
That's the beauty of wood, unlike coal and oil, if done right it's sustainable over a shorter period.
Do you knbow how high special payments and taxes were for German landlords and house owners in the terrible years of the 20s of the past century? Many shot a bullet through their head.

If the system collapses, nothing saves you. Not gold. Not property. Not stocks. Nothing. The state always has the longer lever to steal from you.

August
03-27-13, 09:17 AM
If the system collapses, nothing saves you. Not gold. Not property. Not stocks. Nothing. The state always has the longer lever to steal from you.

What state?

If the system collapses so does the state. The worst you're going to have to fear is a local potentate filling the power vacuum.

Skybird
03-27-13, 10:02 AM
The state that not only collects taxes from you, but that also has the power to rule by itself how much it is about to steal from you. The state that has the power to put its hands even deeper into your pockets when it decides that this is desirable to please the crowd or to delay the unmasking of its own failure, financially. The state that makes the laws you have to comply with else they go after you. The state that lives at your cost but does not produce anything, just takes from you and takes more and more: more of your money. More of your freedom. More of your property. More of your rights.

It is not in the interest of the democratic state to foster and to hold together the common and poublic wealthg, since the actors acting on behalf of the state know they rule for limited time only and do not own the capitalstock. They only can use and profit of the interest they are granted with by temporarily using the capitalstock. So their interest is not directed at the long-termed future, but at maximising income in the shortest ammount of time possible. Raising debts and collecting more taxes are the tools of choice.

Ask yourself why today there is a total tax burden (all txes togather) of around 50%, while a hundred and two hundred years ago in many countries it was just 5-8%. Ask yourself why in the US the number of laws and regulations for all and everything have grown by a factor of beyond 200 in the past 25 years alone. The act of ever growing law canons indicates that there is anything but stability and trustworthiness of laws. The law is made by lobbyists and elitists and that you have ever changing regulations juts illustrates how fluid and unstable the law indeed is. Public law goes before private law now, and public law means the claim of the common public for everything anybody owns, and has even gone beyond that in parts of the Western world, now also regulating what people according to public "consensus" should think and voice in opinion in order to not getting criminalized, defamed or discriminated.

Yes, all that is Hoppe again. And yes, if you think it has the smell of pure socialism and collectivism around it, than you are right.

I HATE collectivism.

Betonov
03-27-13, 10:42 AM
I bought forest with my money. Hopefully it will bring in a fair amount of money from logging for retirement.

Ha ha ha ha, you had to buy :D

Just kidding. I inherited my 5 hectares of forrest. And no-one had to die. My grandmother just didn't wanted it anymore and was all transfered to me :D

Lousy logging oportunity, it's steep and in the middle of nowhere. But it has a registered hut on it which just needs some renovation.

August
03-27-13, 11:12 AM
Ha ha ha ha, you had to buy :D

Just kidding. I inherited my 5 hectares of forrest. And no-one had to die. My grandmother just didn't wanted it anymore and was all transfered to me :D

Lousy logging oportunity, it's steep and in the middle of nowhere. But it has a registered hut on it which just needs some renovation.

Good for you! It's good for a man to own land.

Steepness shouldn't be that much of a detraction though. Don't you folks do skyline logging? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_logging

Betonov
03-27-13, 11:21 AM
Good for you! It's good for a man to own land.

Steepness shouldn't be that much of a detraction though. Don't you folks do skyline logging? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyline_logging

A lot. But it's also expensive.

There's 2 problems. The 5 hectares are in 3 pieces of diferent sizes so one parcel isn't enough to produce enough quality wood to at least cover the operation. Second, to get to the road I need concensus from 3 other landowners that I had to drag the logs ower their land.

Wait and buy off land. A lot of owners are old and their kids just don't want a piece of forrested land. Listen to the obituary, the land is cheap after someone dies.

August
03-27-13, 11:26 AM
A lot. But it's also expensive.

There's 2 problems. The 5 hectares are in 3 pieces of diferent sizes so one parcel isn't enough to produce enough quality wood to at least cover the operation. Second, to get to the road I need concensus from 3 other landowners that I had to drag the logs ower their land.

Wait and buy off land. A lot of owners are old and their kids just don't want a piece of forrested land. Listen to the obituary, the land is cheap after someone dies.

I see the difficulty you have. I'm luckier in that Maine gives a huge property tax discount to lands being used to grow trees. My 100 acres only costs me about $360 per year.

Sung
03-27-13, 11:32 AM
Buy stocks, gold, silver and take your money from the bank. Thats the best way to defense.

This fiat money system will come to end.

AndyJWest
03-27-13, 11:41 AM
Skybird, property relations, in the sense of individual ownership, can only exist as long as the state does. In all stateless societies, 'property ownership', such as it exists at all, is collective. It has to be. No individual can enforce ownership alone. You have a simple choice: state + property, or no state + no property. Which would you prefer?

And don't bother quoting your favourite academic anarcho-capitalist rabble-rouser on this - the facts, as stated above, are self-evident from anthropological studies (as well as being common sense), and all the wishful thinking in the world cannot alter the fact that collective action invariably beats individualism in the long run, when it comes to who 'owns' what. You can sit on your pile of gold waving your AK-47 around all you like. You have to sleep sometime...

Betonov
03-27-13, 11:46 AM
I see the difficulty you have. I'm luckier in that Maine gives a huge property tax discount to lands being used to grow trees. My 100 acres only costs me about $360 per year.

I don't have to pay for property tax. €50 per year for road maintainance and sales tax if I sell that wood.

Shame though, good land, plenty of water and rich soil. But nothing but spruces, the cheapest wood. A loot ov beech too, enough firewood for a cuple of winters. I'll try to replant everything for something more profitable and buy my way to the road

Jimbuna
03-27-13, 12:22 PM
I don't have to pay for property tax. €50 per year for road maintainance and sales tax if I sell that wood.

Shame though, good land, plenty of water and rich soil. But nothing but spruces, the cheapest wood. A loot ov beech too, enough firewood for a cuple of winters. I'll try to replant everything for something more profitable and buy my way to the road

Oak or mahogany.

Betonov
03-27-13, 12:24 PM
Chestnut, oak and beech for firewood

Jimbuna
03-27-13, 01:02 PM
Plant some apple and pear trees and go into cider production :)

August
03-27-13, 02:35 PM
Plant some apple and pear trees and go into cider production :)

Apple and pear trees draw deer too. I loves me some venison!

Betonov
03-27-13, 02:51 PM
apples, pears and cherry trees will be planted in my backyard next spring.

Too bad I can't be a hunter in my country, I can't get myself drunk enough to be accepted into a hunting family as they're called here (damn drunken barbarians)

I'd be a good hunter, managed to get near enough a chamois to take a picture with a mobile phone :D

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/531430_401940739818449_1154319184_n.jpg


My neghbour is a hunter, we got special prices on venison :D

em2nought
03-27-13, 04:19 PM
Paulownia, and you can harvest in eight years. Just coppiced an acre after the first year of neglected growth.

Self sufficient farmer would seem to be the best profession if gov't totally messes us up as it looks like they are.