Euro zone orders Cyprus to sieze 10%

[yubba]

of peoples bank accounts, in order to secure a bailout, gee Wally I wonder when that, will start over here ??? Probably after they disarm us.. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/17/us-cyprus-parliament-idUSBRE92G03I20130317

[AndyJWest]

Curious to see who is in favour of this, and who is against:
Anastasiades's right-wing Democratic Rally party, with 20 seats in the 56-member parliament, needs the support of other factions for the vote [on the levy] to pass. It was unclear whether even his coalition partners, the Democratic Party, would fully support the levy.

Cyprus's Communist party AKEL, accused of stalling on a bailout during its tenure in power until the end of February, would vote against the measure. The socialist Edek party called EU demands "absurd".

[AndyJWest]

I wonder when that, will start over here ??? Probably after they disarm us..

According to Wikipedia, Cyprus has the 6th-highest per-capita gun ownership in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership

[swamprat69er]

of peoples bank accounts, in order to secure a bailout, gee Wally I wonder when that, will start over here ??? Probably after they disarm us.. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/17/us-cyprus-parliament-idUSBRE92G03I20130317

If my goobermint wants to take 9.9 or even 6.7% of my money they would go farther in the hole than they are now.:haha:

That is not going to set well with a lot of people.

[Hottentot]

http://i.imgur.com/O6mT2EG.jpg

[Oberon]

I think you can go for conspiracy as well. I did. :yep:

[AndyJWest]

You've not ticked off 'socialism' and 'communism', Hottentot. Then again, it must be confusing for murricans when the "right-wing Democratic Rally party" is trying to take peoples' money away, and the socialists and communists oppose it...

It probably helps if you don't try to understand world politics solely in terms of what goes on in the US.

[the_tyrant]

its things like this that makes me happy that I keep my money under my bed

[Takeda Shingen]

You've not ticked off 'socialism' and 'communism', Hottentot. Then again, it must be confusing for murricans when the "right-wing Democratic Rally party" is trying to take peoples' money away, and the socialists and communists oppose it...

It probably helps if you don't try to understand world politics solely in terms of what goes on in the US.

It would also probably help if you looked at someone's profile locale before you made sweeping statements intended to belittle them. Consider it a free tip.

[Skybird]

Strange. People accept it when they get expropriated by low interests, flooding the market with cheap money, and high taxes, as long as it does not get called expropriation, but "interest" and "taxes". But when you cut the show short and instead just take their property directly and rob some of it, they yell the sky down.

On the other hand, what did the people in cyprus expect? That the workers in Finland, Austria and Germany would just sit and enjoy to work more so that they can pay for the inabilities and deficits of the people in Cyprus and the failures of their Cyprus that the people on that island have to accept responsibility for? I assume they expected miracle money just growing on trees and the wind blowing the notes to Cyprus all for free, eh? Compared to what other people who have nothing to do with Cyprus at all need to fund in payments to Cyprus via the ECB, people in Cyprus still pay the smaller part of the bill. Why Fins and Germans and Austrians need to work and make new debts of their own to pay for Cyprus, escapes me, as if it would not cost us anything. And regarding the Russian mafia and money launders in Cyprus - maybe the people there would be well-advised if they start to go after their corrupt government and start throwing its leaders off rooftops for having brought in financial crime in the first.

Ah. the whole drama, and the failings preceding it, all are in conformity with what I said about the model by Hoppe. But I just got called nuts over it. Denial of reality, I call that.

Note to myself: it's the Eurozone, stupid. Why am I even lamenting about lunacy when it is a mental asylum I am talking about. Madness and derealization are part of the environment here.

[Hottentot]

It would also probably help if you looked at someone's profile locale before you made sweeping statements intended to belittle them. Consider it a free tip.

Thanks, Takeda, but I didn't get the impression that it was aimed at me despite of the quote. And if it was...well, frankly it was then so silly that I'd have hard time taking it seriously (it's not like I'm very good at that in any case.)

[Takeda Shingen]

Well Hott, if it wasn't aimed at you then I owe Andy an apology.

[AndyJWest]

Not aimed at Hottentot. Apologies if anyone saw it that way. Aimed at the OP, who seems to have taken advantage of the Cyprus situation to take a cheap shot at his favourite target without even bothering to look at who was proposing what, and why.

[Takeda Shingen]

Not aimed at Hottentot. Apologies if anyone saw it that way. Aimed at the OP, who seems to have taken advantage of the Cyprus situation to take a cheap shot at his favourite target without even bothering to look at who was proposing what, and why.

Nope, it's me that owes you an apology. Sorry Andy, I should read more carefully.

[TFatseas]

Yeah, like this won't start a bank run like crazy.

Stupid.

[AndyJWest]

The dilemma seems to be that if they impose a levy, they will get a bank run. If they don't impose a levy, the EU will refuse to support Cyprus any further - which will cause a bank run. It looks like the political parties are all jockeying for position to see who comes out of it looking the least responsible for the mess. Nothing new there.

[Jimbuna]

This won't help any expat Brits over there but the Brit government have guaranteed full compensation for any Brit government employees or Forces personnel who are subject to these measures.

[August]

The dilemma seems to be that if they impose a levy, they will get a bank run. If they don't impose a levy, the EU will refuse to support Cyprus any further - which will cause a bank run. It looks like the political parties are all jockeying for position to see who comes out of it looking the least responsible for the mess. Nothing new there.


Heck even the idea that this could happen might spark a bank run. Might not be a bad idea to stick it under the mattress until this all plays out.

[nikimcbee]

This won't help any expat Brits over there but the Brit government have guaranteed full compensation for any Brit government employees or Forces personnel who are subject to these measures.

:haha: I thought you guys were broke.

What was Steed's Credit card number again?:hmm2:

[Jimbuna]

:haha: I thought you guys were broke.

What was Steed's Credit card number again?:hmm2:

It won't matter if he is residing in Cyprus....non UK laws.

[yubba]

Are we there yet ???? what's in the 14th amendment ???? What's McDonald vs Chicago have to do with it. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0314.htm, Why are states and the fed more worried about our guns than our economy, from what I read they are violating the constitution, I know some of these new government types took an oath while standing ankle deep in the graves of Sandy Hook, with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

[nikimcbee]

It won't matter if he is residing in Cyprus....non UK laws.


Nevermind, I forgot Steed was busy defending some South Atlantic island.:shucks:

[AndyJWest]

Are we there yet ???? what's in the 14th amendment ???? What's McDonald vs Chicago have to do with it. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2010/rpt/2010-R-0314.htm, Why are states and the fed more worried about our guns than our economy, from what I read they are violating the constitution, I know some of these new government types took an oath while standing ankle deep in the graves of Sandy Hook, with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

What exactly has that got to do with a levy on Cypriot bank accounts?

[Skybird]

This won't help any expat Brits over there but the Brit government have guaranteed full compensation for any Brit government employees or Forces personnel who are subject to these measures.

Such assurances only hold ground if the disaster is extremely limite din size. When the mjaor part of a national bank envcriopnment goes down the drain, its just bits of paper then. The guarantees given for German savings at banks are sufficient for only 0.5 or 3.0% (I'm not sure which one it was) of customers' savings - and that was in 2009. Since then a great money devaluation has moved on, and more money was flooded onto the market.

Needless to say that the state giving such guarantees is a customer of the banks, and that the money such guarantees will be compensated with is just more of this wonderful thing called FIAT money.

It's all just a big illusion show to keep the mob silent in the street.

I still wonder in what way Cyprus is system-relevant,m and in what way the Cypriotic government can assume that other people owe it to them to pay for their corruption, incompetence and mismanagement. It was the Cypriotic people voting them into power, and they share the responsibility of what is being done in their name, therefore.

And why the heck have people from Greece and Britain, or any foreigners at all, moved their saving from their country to banks in - Cyprus? It's not as if the situation in Cyprus was not known since years, eh? No risk no fun, or what? My sympathy is limited. Very.

I have talked my parents into taking their savings from the bank and hide them well privately. Interests are so lousy here that the small raise in additional expropriation resulting from not even getting this caricature of an interest rate does not count anyway. Having savings on your bank these days means you get robbed, slowly, but constantly. and if the system fails over night, you cannot take it from the bank. That is a top level concern these days, I think. Even in Germany. Because if something really bad happens, then it will happen fast, unfolding within hours. The hour you notice that prices for good and items, property and real values explode suddenly, it will already be too late for almost everybody. And if the crash is politically wanted, you do not even get that warning time.

[Oberon]

One rumour I heard was that the Cyprus situation was a test run for a new type of EU bailout clause, if that is the case then it has not exactly gone well. :hmmm:

[yubba]

What exactly has that got to do with a levy on Cypriot bank accounts? Well , what happens over there might just happen over here,, the question still stands why is our governments state, local, fed,, more worried about our guns than our economy????? It is a no brainer, they got to keep us distracted from the real issues like what is going on over there. Will we see this story in our newspapers or on the morning network news tomorrow.??? and plus I just happened acrossed it,, figured I slip it in.Where are my manners I see you're new, welcome aboard, you'll soon learn my threads turn into trainwrecks fun to watch,, but not fun to be in...

[AndyJWest]

The US government isn't trying to arrange a bailout from the EU. Why would it need to impose a levy? And as Skybird will no doubt point out, the US government can always 'tax savings' by printing money (Cyprus can't, obviously, as other EU members would be rather p****d off to see their own money devalued). Printing money has the added 'advantage' that it works just as well when savings are hidden under mattresses as when they are in the banks.

As for the US government being more concerned about guns than the economy, I suspect it is more likely the case that it is easier to propose plausible fixes for the former than the latter (assuming that you think there is anything that needs 'fixing' concerning guns - I get the impression you don't). It is an old trick - old as politics itself, I'd think - for politicians to disguise their inability to actually do anything fundamental in economics by making controversial proposals elsewhere.

[yubba]

Well said, Mr West. So what is the moral of this story????. Gee Wally I don't know. The moral of this story is that your money and wealth doesn't belong to you and is subject to confiscation, sound familar it has been said recently and has been in history books..You didn't build that, what in the left of Stalin is that. I hear they closed the banks in Cyprus till thursday.

[Bilge_Rat]

The biggest problem here is the fact that Cyprus banks have been used for years by Russians as a tax haven. This is commonly known although not widely publicized.

Russian businessmen/politicians will siphon off bribes, graft, illegal/undeclared profits, hide them in a Cyprus bank and then "borrow" the money they deposited as a "loan" garanteed by their deposits. The money is thus laundered and comes back to Russia clean. This has been a huge highly profitable business for Cyprus banks for years.

Germany is, of course, not interested to ask its taxpayers to fork out additional funds in what would be an indirect bailout of Russian billionaires.

The question of course is always what is the alternative solution?

[Synthfg]

The biggest problem here is the fact that Cyprus banks have been used for years by Russians as a tax haven. This is commonly known although not widely publicized.

Russian businessmen/politicians will siphon off bribes, graft, illegal/undeclared profits, hide them in a Cyprus bank and then "borrow" the money they deposited as a "loan" garanteed by their deposits. The money is thus laundered and comes back to Russia clean. This has been a huge highly profiteble business for Cyprus banks for years.

Germany is, of course, not interested to ask its taxpayers to fork out additional funds in what would be an indirect bailout of Russian billionaires.

The question of course is always what is the alternative solution?

Guarantee deposits under 100k euros and apply a set of tax bands for amounts above that limit, (10% upto 250k, 15% upto 500k, 20% on 500k and over) for example

[tater]

Looks like Cyprus chose to let the majority of the money running through its banking system be russian moving money out, then back into russia (laundering?). Seems like if they wanted to have safe banks, they should have run their banking system better.

Who should pay for their mistakes, however? Seems like Cyprus should, whatever they call the tax (FDIC "premiums" like all corporate costs are simply passed to customers, so we all pay for FDIC up front in the US, then pay again as taxpayers in terms of guarantees to the whole system should FDIC fail (since FDIC doesn't have assets to cover all deposits insured at once in the nation, taxpayers are on the hook for the difference in a total failure).

If the EU is volunteering to be on the hook for all Cypriot deposits, strikes me they can demand whatever they like, and that's entirely fair. Cyprus can always refuse, and cover their own insurance.

[geetrue]

Thanks tater and bilge rat ... :yep:

I had forgotten about Russian mafia laundering their money in Cyprus

surely is a math problem behind the scenes

but what if this would happen to other bail outs such as ireland?

[STEED]

Cyprus Bank Deposits to Be Taxed in $13 Billion Bailout
http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/03/eu-imposes-collective-punishment-on-cypriots/

Interesting Blog. :yep:

[STEED]

Cyprus: Much Of Russia's Investment 'Corrupt'

A prominent economist has told Sky News that much of the cash deposited by Russians in Cypriot banks is "corruption money".
The comments from Ivan Tchakarov, chief economist at the Russian investment bank Renaissance Capital, came as Cyprus is set to impose a one-off tax on bank accounts as part of a 10bn euro bailout.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/cyprus-much-russias-investment-corrupt-195100239--finance.html#RW7nM6i

Banks is a dirty word.

[Diopos]

...
The question of course is always what is the alternative solution?

Let them Ruskies put their money in German banks! In that way it won't be "laundered" any more, it will be "sanctified"!! :)

.

[mookiemookie]

What exactly has that got to do with a levy on Cypriot bank accounts?

You've made the mistake of trying to parse yubba logic into something resembling coherent thought. If you want to make any sort of sense out of it, it may help to down a pint of whiskey before reading.

[yubba]

Aaah you're to kind, well Mcdonald vs Chicago is a land mark case protecting our 2nd amendments rights, there is several trillion dollars in 401k and ira's and savings, don't pretend that these theives in DC haven't been figuring out a way to get their hands on this money for the continuiance of government, so the only thing that is standing in the way of that is, our 2nd amendment rights and the constitution, we are 16 trillion dollars in debt, so when we do implode where is it written that we won't go back to a free market system again that's normally what happens to a socialist country when it fails. I really don't see the 47% getting off the couch to fight for this left of Stalin dream, they won't get off the couch to go to work.

[Oberon]

Guns - check
Socialism - check
Stalin - check
Euro - check

So close...so close! :nope:

[August]

Guns - check
Socialism - check
Stalin - check
Euro - check

So close...so close! :nope:

:O:

Guns - check
Obama - check
Democrat - check
Republican - check
Conspiracy - check
Communism - Dammit!

:down:

[Hottentot]

Guns - check
Socialism - check
Stalin - check
Euro - check

So close...so close! :nope:

Yeah, what we need right now is Bubblehead or someone to have a rant about liberals and democrats and the horizontal row on the right is filled. Add a few words about republicans and it's a double win. Comparing Obama to Hitler would do as well, or suspecting that Bush is a muslim. But it usually goes the other way around. :wah:

[Oberon]

Yeah, you didn't make this easy did you? :O:

And we're not likely to get the Jew column filled until either Alex is unbrigged/banned or Zeewolf emerges from the Tank sim section.

Ah well, I have my Bingo pen ready. :yep:

[Betonov]

And we're not likely to get the Jew column filled until either Alex is unbrigged/banned or Zeewolf emerges from the Tank sim section.



I could step in, but I'd only rant about that one time a Jew stole my seat at an airport :nope:
Maybe if we replaced Jews with Croats :hmmm:

[August]

Yeah, you didn't make this easy did you? :O:

And we're not likely to get the Jew column filled until either Alex is unbrigged/banned or Zeewolf emerges from the Tank sim section.

Ah well, I have my Bingo pen ready. :yep:
Guns - check
Socialism - check
Stalin - check
Euro - check

So close...so close! :nope:

:O:

Guns - check
Obama - check
Democrat - check
Republican - check
Conspiracy - check
Communism - Dammit!

:down:

Jew

[geetrue]

Guns - check
Socialism - check
Stalin - check
Euro - check

So close...so close! :nope:

You forgot the social security check, but I know why
because March 14th now requires ebt (electronic banking transfer) :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Such assurances only hold ground if the disaster is extremely limite din size. When the mjaor part of a national bank envcriopnment goes down the drain, its just bits of paper then. The guarantees given for German savings at banks are sufficient for only 0.5 or 3.0% (I'm not sure which one it was) of customers' savings - and that was in 2009. Since then a great money devaluation has moved on, and more money was flooded onto the market.

Needless to say that the state giving such guarantees is a customer of the banks, and that the money such guarantees will be compensated with is just more of this wonderful thing called FIAT money.

It's all just a big illusion show to keep the mob silent in the street.

I still wonder in what way Cyprus is system-relevant,m and in what way the Cypriotic government can assume that other people owe it to them to pay for their corruption, incompetence and mismanagement. It was the Cypriotic people voting them into power, and they share the responsibility of what is being done in their name, therefore.

And why the heck have people from Greece and Britain, or any foreigners at all, moved their saving from their country to banks in - Cyprus? It's not as if the situation in Cyprus was not known since years, eh? No risk no fun, or what? My sympathy is limited. Very.

I have talked my parents into taking their savings from the bank and hide them well privately. Interests are so lousy here that the small raise in additional expropriation resulting from not even getting this caricature of an interest rate does not count anyway. Having savings on your bank these days means you get robbed, slowly, but constantly. and if the system fails over night, you cannot take it from the bank. That is a top level concern these days, I think. Even in Germany. Because if something really bad happens, then it will happen fast, unfolding within hours. The hour you notice that prices for good and items, property and real values explode suddenly, it will already be too late for almost everybody. And if the crash is politically wanted, you do not even get that warning time.

I think your misunderstanding me...I meant compensation for the levy only. Some of the service personnel have their wages paid direct into their Cypriot bank accounts and it is highly unlikely any will have vast sums in their accounts.

I read somewhere that it is estimated £170 million is the most a compensation payout total would be.

[Jimbuna]

MoD flies emergency cash to Cyprus for British personnel:


An RAF plane carrying 1m euros is flying to Cyprus from Britain as a "contingency measure" to provide military personnel with emergency loans, the Ministry of Defence says.



"The MoD is proactively approaching personnel to ask if they want their March, and future months' salaries paid into UK bank accounts, rather than Cypriot accounts," they said.
"We're determined to do everything we can to minimise the impact of the Cyprus banking crisis on our people."
Chancellor George Osborne has already said the UK will compensate any British troops in Cyprus hit by plans to introduce the bank levy.
And British government workers would also be protected, he said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21847013

[Oberon]

Cypriot ministers reject EU-IMF bailout tax:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21842966

The Cyprus central bank chief, Panicos Demetriades, has warned that scrapping the tax on small savers would scupper the plan to raise 5.8bn euros in total from bank deposits. He also predicted account holders could suddenly withdraw 10% or more of the total in Cypriot banks if the levy was imposed.

The Cyprus central bank chief, Panicos Demetriades

Panicos

:hmmm: You couldn't make this up...

[CaptainHaplo]

The problem is not just for the individual. Think - where does business keep its money? Everything from its donation fund accounts to its payroll is kept in banks. This alone means a 10% payroll cost increase for most employers across the board....

And when employees are cut to make payroll - more people scream at government to "fix" it and pay unemployment...

[Jimbuna]

Ongoing:


Cypriot and eurozone officials are trying to modify the levy of 6.75% on deposits of up to €100,000 (£85,000), and 9.9% on those above €100,000 to ease the burden on small savers. A revised draft bill seen by Reuters would exempt savings under €20,000, charge a rate of 6.75% for amounts between €20,000 and €100,000 and maintain a 9.9% tax on deposits above that level.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/19/cyprus-president-bailout-levy

[Skybird]

What I find surprising (I mean that rhetorical only) is that the bosses of those Cyprian banks are still walking in freedom. They should disappear behind iron bars for the next 20 years to come. The government, too. They are hardened criminals, plain and simple, and they are a threat to all and everybody.

The Cyprian people did not complain when they benefitted from their criminal actions, by high interests. They did not complain about the government they had elected that had led them into this no-way-out situation and into the arms of Russian money launderers. But now as the bill of their decisions - free decisions! - is being presented, they suddenly do not want to be responsible for their share of guilt. And if Finland, Germany, Austria do not agree to to budget them with the incomes of Finnish, German and Austrian employees and by raising their own debts, then the old Nazi posters get shown immediately again.

Cyprus adds less than 0.23% to the total EU's economic income. In other words - it is completely irrelevant, and only it'S intentionally corrupoted banking system gives it some - unfavourable - meaning, economically. But it claims the right to hijack a whole continent. That pisses me off big time.

Another high risk candidate that is not talked much about, is Luxembourgh, and I cannot understand why. It'S banks hold account deposits that are 22 times as high than it economical production. If people start to move their money away, then a party will begin compared to which all what we have seen until here was just lame and boring.

The whole economic system of ours, is a total and complete mess, a giant facade shining with blinking lights for a very small time, but build on sand and artificially blown up by endlessly funding states on tick. And people vote for such policies, and punish everybody warning against this suicidal madness by not voting him. I think there are no real innocents in this. We are all guilty, due to our stupidity, our short-sightedness, our endless greed for more-more-more. There is a block-high wave of brown stuff heading for us. And we deserve to get rolled over by it.

And when it is over, you know what will happen? People will restart and will do it in exactly the same ways and they will enthusiastically repeat the same mistakes, since payday for this new round of madness then will be a long time away in the future.

The Russians will not like to be expected to pay now, but they will, to protect their money laundering schemes, they also will see the opening door for gaining influence on the EU through the side door, and they will see an option to eventually build a naval base on Cyprus in case they lose their base in Syria.

[Tribesman]

Another high risk candidate that is not talked much about, is Luxembourgh, and I cannot understand why. It'S banks hold account deposits that are 22 times as high than it economical production. If people start to move their money away, then a party will begin compared to which all what we have seen until here was just lame and boring.

Wasn't Luxembourg one of your fanciful feudal hoppian utopias which everyone should copy?

[mookiemookie]

The problem is not just for the individual. Think - where does business keep its money? Everything from its donation fund accounts to its payroll is kept in banks. This alone means a 10% payroll cost increase for most employers across the board....

And when employees are cut to make payroll - more people scream at government to "fix" it and pay unemployment...

I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of the Cypriot (I've always wanted to use that word) scheme to appropriate funds, but most corporate bank accounts are set up as sweep accounts. That means the money is never really in the actual "bank account" unless it's going to be used that day. The money is kept in investment accounts and "swept" into the bank account to meet scheduled payments or a predetermined balance amount.

So I would wager the amount at risk for a corporation would be relatively small if they were just targeting plain vanilla bank accounts.

[Bilge_Rat]

I spoke to a Cyprus attorney/friend who obviously is in the middle of this.

Latest rumours is that there will not be a levy or if there is one, it will only hit Cyprus residents.

The EU will only lend 10 bn Euros, so they have to find the other 6. Apparently negociations are ongoing in Moscow and Russia might pony up the missing cash.

Banks are closed until next tuesday and a deal is expected by then.

[Synthfg]

Latest rumor is Gazprom is buying one of the banks in return for a significant chunk of Cypriot gas prospects and basing rights for the Russian Mediteranian Squadron (replacing the Russian bases in Tartus)

[August]

The Cyprian people did not complain when ..... They did not complain about the government they had elected that...

How do you know what the Cyprian people did or didn't complain about? Have you conducted a poll?

[Skybird]

The EU will only lend 10 bn Euros,

"lend"...? :har:

[BossMark]

Cyprus have really buggered up trying to take 10% of peoples savings.

If they'd copied Cameron and Clegg they could have had it all.

[Jimbuna]

The Cypriot church (Orthodox I believe) are also offering to help bail out their government.

[Skybird]

Unicredit and German Statistics Office published some interesting calculations yesterday. The development of savings over the past 4 years were compared in four countries, and inflation effects were shown. It shows how massively Cypriots have benefitted from the redistribution pattern that have been established in the EU - and who has the highest losses due to them.

In Italy, 10 thousand Euros private savings on your bank account in 2008 have turned into 11500 in 2012, and after cleaning that of the inflation loss, 10473. Net win: 473 over 4 years.

In Spain, 10 thousand Euros in 2008 turned into 11800 in 12000, leaving 10791 after inflation cleaning. Net gain after 4 years: 791 Euros.

In Cyprus, 10000 Euros in 2008 blew up to 13100 Euros in 2012 before and still a fat 11852 euros after inflation correction. Net win: 1852 Euros.

And here comes Germany. 10 thousand Euros in 2008 turned into 10800 Euros in 2012, after inflation over that four years: 10100 Euros. Net gain: 100 Euros.

Now take into account that since quiter some time, we have extraordinarily low interest rates in Germany. If you would calculate only the past 2 years, 2010 to 2012, German savers already have "accieved" solid losses. What the Cypriots are complaining about, that their private savers should pas a share of their national guilt, already is expected from German savers since quite some time now. Just that it is not considered polite to say that loud in Europe.

Moral by the end of the day: in all the Eurozone, your saving are not longer save, politicians have demonstrated once again that they make their rules as they like them, only to break them short time later. Trustworthiness: zero. People elect these politicians because they tell so nice fairy tales, and do not stage protests of the scale we see now in order to confront them, so the criminal schemes being established obviously is okay for people as long as they get their fat share of the overall cake. That this cake is baken by pushing up debts, taxes, and inflation that eats up interest gains so that in the end the whole misery gets worse not better, and people again must pay the bill, a higher bill - this seems to escape many people.

The whole system is that rotten that words fail. And with each round played like this, the final bill gets tougher.

But people would not vote for somebody saying that. Better more promises to keep the illusions alive longer. Send the band on deck!

[tater]

BTW, the ECB didn't order the Cypriot banks to confiscate any money. They asked for a copay from the government of Cyprus of almost 6 billion for them to apply the bailout.

How Cyprus generates that is their own business. Of course since they decided it would be a great idea to be the "Cayman Islands of the med"™, and give outrageous interest rates to (largely russian) depositors that exceed the GDP of their country, it's their own choice to be in this situation. How to loan money at a higher rate to pay the 5% rate? Loan the money to Greece. Brilliant!

Anyone who put their money in those banks at 5% interest when stable countries have rates a fraction of that should have wondered how their tiny bank could be so much more awesome than banks in the UK or Germany. Too good to be true is too good to be true.

People keep trotting out "granny losing her life savings," but who puts their retirement money in a savings account? Maybe granny does when it pays 5% vs ~2% for 10 year t-bills, and far lower for shorter term t-bills. A not so bright granny.

Bottom line is that the (rejected) proposal to charge ~7% on those lower value accounts, and 10% on higher would basically wipe out a little more than a year's overly inflated interest rates.

[tater]

I would never claim to understand the EU, so I will ask a question. Is this because while there is an ECB, all the countries get to have entirely local banking laws? Seems that the the EU is much more loose (less federal) than the USA is (in terms of the relationship of US States to the USA vs EU member States to the EU).

You'd expect the ECB to have their own "FDIC," then charge the premiums to member country banks (or deny coverage) based on the regulations, finances, etc in those countries.

[Jimbuna]

BTW, the ECB didn't order the Cypriot banks to confiscate any money. They asked for a copay from the government of Cyprus of almost 6 billion for them to apply the bailout.

How Cyprus generates that is their own business. Of course since they decided it would be a great idea to be the "Cayman Islands of the med"™, and give outrageous interest rates to (largely russian) depositors that exceed the GDP of their country, it's their own choice to be in this situation. How to loan money at a higher rate to pay the 5% rate? Loan the money to Greece. Brilliant!

Anyone who put their money in those banks at 5% interest when stable countries have rates a fraction of that should have wondered how their tiny bank could be so much more awesome than banks in the UK or Germany. Too good to be true is too good to be true.

People keep trotting out "granny losing her life savings," but who puts their retirement money in a savings account? Maybe granny does when it pays 5% vs ~2% for 10 year t-bills, and far lower for shorter term t-bills. A not so bright granny.

Bottom line is that the (rejected) proposal to charge ~7% on those lower value accounts, and 10% on higher would basically wipe out a little more than a year's overly inflated interest rates.

Good post...and yes, the bulk of my savings returns a paltry 2% and some of that is before tax deductions of 20% on the interest :-?

[Skybird]

I would never claim to understand the EU, so I will ask a question. Is this because while there is an ECB, all the countries get to have entirely local banking laws? Seems that the the EU is much more loose (less federal) than the USA is (in terms of the relationship of US States to the USA vs EU member States to the EU).

You'd expect the ECB to have their own "FDIC," then charge the premiums to member country banks (or deny coverage) based on the regulations, finances, etc in those countries.

The ECB legally is not allowed to hold the power that it now has been given. Not few critics say that it breaks EU laws and treaties, with tolerance by national heads of states. We should not have the ECB in its current format and authority at all, nor should it be having the power to do the things it now does - that it nevertheless is that and does all that shows that something went wrong and that EU laws were bypassed, eroded or broken.

The EU is not something you should judge on the grounds of reason and solid design, it is an ideologic crusade and a constant breaking of its own rules and laws. Sense for reality has nothing to do with it.

The history of the Euro, all legal steps that it was embedded in since it hit the market, is a history of all rules relating it being broken, and all treaties designing it being violated. It'S a crime record from all beginning on. All criterions, regulations and laws defining it and referring to it, have been broken.

there should be no financing by states for other state'S debts. It is forbidden by EU treaties. But that is what is being done. There should be no bailing out of national banks by the ECB, but that is what is being done, although it violates still valid rules. Breaking the laws and violating treaties is standard routine over here. Heads of state meet and decide for the most arbitrarily when to stick with the laws, and when not. When they do not, it has no consequences, only the propaganda changes by which the violation gets sold and lied over.

Do not compare the EU to the US. The US were founded by totally different motivations, and are basing on a totally different general sentiment or attitude. Europeans are nation citizens since many centuries, with roots in their country. America was founded by foreign colonists moving into an alien place to which they had no roots. The feeling of grown identity therefore are quite different. That is something that Europeans tend to overlook, and that Americans often find difficult to understand - they therefor conclude that what has worked in the US must work for the EU, too. That is a big mistake. The anglosaxon capital tradition and that of continental Europe and that of Southern Europe are three totally different cultures and thinking schools as well.

Fundamental flaws were implemented on the most basic level already. The self-made claim does not stand the test of reality.

[Bilge_Rat]

Just spoke to my cyprus contact again. Looks like they are probably going back to a levy on bank deposits again, its being debated in parliament now. what a mess.

[Synthfg]

Just spoke to my cyprus contact again. Looks like they are probably going back to a levy on bank deposits again, its being debated in parliament now. what a mess.

Well they have until Monday, so expect another rejection today as it's not like there is any rush,
But after the Russians said no yesterday they need to find their 5.8Bn and quickly

So back to plan A,

[Jimbuna]

I'm wondering what effect if any on the tourist this is having?

May be a good time to make a booking because I honeymooned there in 84 and it was well expensive as I recall :hmm2:

[BossMark]

Apparently Britain has sent a force of top civil servants to Cyprus to advise them how to pull its banking system back from the brink of collapse.

I don't think 'Come to London and open another kebab shop' is going to help.

[Skybird]

Their pension fonds should pay into that special fond. The young and employed will pay with their future. The social fall is only delayed - and will strike back with even greater brutality when the time is ripe.

Saviongs greater than 100,000 should pay now. Well, many Russians (and Ukranians, which is often overseen) use Cyprus as a tax haven, and Putin seems to have expected them to get bailed out by European employees' taxes and Cypriots' savings. The Cypriot government has manouvered earlier this week in explicit protection against the Russian account holders paying something.

I do not share the view, that this one-time payment, or special tax, is a precedence or breaking of the dam, because all holders of savings in European countries like Germany currently must accept that the state silently expropriate them month for month, due to inflation exceeding the extremely low interest rates. Banks in the crisis-hit countries like Luxembourgh, Ireland, Spain and Malta and Cyprus however have offered until the last possible day high interests even in the two digit range, blowing up their banking sectors that much as we now see and which now is the problem.

I know, I sound as if I bitch about any possible way to go from here. That has a simple reason. There is no correct way to go anymore. All ways that still can be chosen, are wrong ways. Acceptable, reasonable options do not seem to exist anymore. At least I do not see them.

This is a very alarming but very correct summary of certain of the key features of the current status quo, and what it means for the future. It is in German language. LINK: Ab jetzt ist alles denkbar (http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0030110). While I am at it - German - , this book: LINK: Der größte Raubzug der Geschichte (http://www.amazon.de/Der-größte-Raubzug-Geschichte-ebook/dp/B008J48PV0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364040965&sr=8-2).

Private savings now can be put hands on by the EU. Next station: supression of evading attempts by reducing cash currency and making digital payment mandatory. Special taxes on gold trade. Prohibition of privately owning gold. Special taxes on private property (land, houses).

Euro and EU. The perfect textbook example illustrating how true Hoppe is. That's why it is not really surprising what is happening. It can be so perfectly explained, and predicted.

[STEED]

Apparently Britain has sent a force of top civil servants to Cyprus to advise them how to pull its banking system back from the brink of collapse.

I don't think 'Come to London and open another kebab shop' is going to help.

:har: :har:

The corrupt advising the corrupt. :03:

[Jimbuna]

Apparently Britain has sent a force of top civil servants to Cyprus to advise them how to pull its banking system back from the brink of collapse.

I don't think 'Come to London and open another kebab shop' is going to help.

:har: :har:

The corrupt advising the corrupt. :03:

You couldn't write a better comedy script :)

[em2nought]

Apparently Britain has sent a force of top civil servants to Cyprus to advise them how to pull its banking system back from the brink of collapse.

I don't think 'Come to London and open another kebab shop' is going to help.

Might require stronger measures, maybe open an entire franchise in the USA, we suffer from a lack of doner. :D

I think they could get JC Penny locations cheap, maybe open a Mini Storage/kebab shop. Save lugging your purchases all over the mall, just put them directly in your storage unit. :D

[Skybird]

Maybe this is the explanation why the Russians messed up their gamble. I read in the Prawda a note that Moscow rejected any deal with Cyprus as long as Cyprus would not end a money transaction ban that seem to have struck Moscow by surprise when it got implemented due to demand by the EU. Since this ban Russian account holders, oligarchs, business companies and money launderers cannot transfer their wealthy deposits out of the danger zone, but are strapped right in the eye of the storm.

Possible that Moscow hoped to make Cyprus feel so uncomfortable that it would revolt against the EU-dictated ban, so that the Russians could move their assets out - and then agree on any Cypriotic offer for gasfield licenses to Gazprom and takeover of Cypriotic banks in return for Russian credit - which would have led Cyprus even deeper into the embrace by the Russian bear.

By diplomatic standards Medwedew has just commented with a relatively ammount of furor over the plan to tax high deposits beyond 100,000 by 20%. Many Russians will lose plenty of money there. And many criminal figures will not feel forgiving about that. The organised crime has a long memory and a long arm - especially the Russian Mafia.

Moscow raised the stakes and not only wanted more, but wanted it all - and the cards seem to blow up right into Putin's face now.

Poor sod. :D

But he already had his daily success experience: Moscow signed a treaty over massive gas deliveries to and joint venturing with China. Bejing also really landed a coup there. Which is two sounding slaps from both in the EU's face.

Give and take. Friendship is something wonderful, isn't it.

On a sidenot, Germany meanwhile continues to ruin its finances over its Earth-moving, world-shaking, sensational, dysfunctional "energy revolution." Jetzt erst recht! :yeah: :har:

[Jimbuna]

Such is the world today.

[Skybird]

Hooopla, nobody could have seen that one coming: Cyprus wants a little money more now. Some billions.

They will probably get it. After that the Euro propaganda ministers can declare for the [insert actual counter here]th time that the crisis is over and Europe now is save.

[Skybird]

Hooopla, nobody could have seen that one coming: Cyprus wants a little money more now. Some billions.

They will probably get it. After that the Euro propaganda ministers can declare for the [insert actual counter here]th time that the crisis is over and Europe now is save.

Or does Cyprus want those additional billions to compensate the Russians for their losses...? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

It seems to have become known by analysis of the TARGET account balances that while Nicosia had announced a financial transactions stop days ago, the Cypriot government and banks nevertheless waved through suspiciously high ammounts of money that got transferred out of Cyprus. Volume of such transactions should have intensified by several factors over the past days.

My theory: Nicosia bows to Russian pressure to allow Russian oligarchs saving the black money that they had parked in Cyprus.

The alarm again came form the Germans, who in last autumn already were the first to alarm the EU with BND informations on Russian black money parked in Cyprus and money laundery being done in cooperation with Cyprus. Already back then I thought it was high time to kick Cyprus out of the EU (it is more Middle East than European anyway). But the EU-ideologists and their precious gentle dream... the precious gentle dream... it must come true, it must be pressed, pushed, kicked and slammed until it fits, no matter what, no matter the damage, no matter the costs.

[Jimbuna]

They've reached a deal...those with up to 100,000 Euros will be left alone and those with more than that will have a percentage (to be decided in the coming weeks) will be subject to a levy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21916102

[Skybird]

I'm pro and contra.

Pro: What people do not realise when putting their money on a bank account is that they are placing a bet. Peter and Paul think they bring it into safety, that's how it feels to them, but technically they are placing a bet, like placing any other. And that means they can win and lose. There is no guarantee that players always must win. Nor is there a right that they can demand to always win. Anyhow, little John Smith gets saved from losing his existence. The fat Russian cats get a shave. I like that especially in those cases where the fat Russian cats may be criminal money launderers.

Contra: I'm coming around to take a position of fundamental opposition to any statehood in general. My earlier tolerance of needing to pay taxes has declined and today is almost non-existent anymore, for I do not see them being used wisely, but being wasted headlessly to please the canaille. - Still, 10 billion euros from other countries will be pumped into Cyprus. More violation of EU treaty law. - I am pissed by the "unculture" in Southern European countries to expect getting fed and nannied by others who have to work and pay for them, but starting to attack the hands feeding them when those feeding them dare to criticise them for their inefficiency and passivity. Nobody has the right to expect and take for granted a right to live by the same wealthy living standards like people in other countries if he cannot afford that for himself - he has the right to work for optimising the living conditions in his current place according to what he can afford only. And I'm tired of seeing all those notorious Nazi-comparisons, lastly also to be seen in Cyprus. People have elected the leaders they now have, and had before, and people allowed over the past years to blow up the bank sector beyond proportions as long as they profiteered from that by insanely high interest rates. If they would have switched on their brains, they could have seen it coming for them. Now that it found them, they cry wolf. Of course, it is not their mistake, it is not their government, not their responsibility, and it were not their decisions, no - it is the others, especially the evil Germans.

Cyprus can sink in the ocean, as far as I'm concerned. It's contribution to the European economy is lass than a quarter of a percent. But they cheated and lied and arrogantly hijacked a whole continent of almost half a billion people. Nobody needs such friends.

Maybe Moscow let it fall for right that reason, without any further strategic calculations?

[Skybird]

German media just started to quote that Medwedew "tobt vor Wut" (fuming with rage).

And suddenly they want to pay for Cyprus, too.

:har:

I knew they are cooking their own supper, but I had not expected them to mess up that badly this time. Anyhow, there will be retaliation from their side. Gas prices comes to my mind, and trade agreements. They will fight to get back their money in other areas of the playboard.

[Skybird]

A German comment dripping with acidity:

Unwürdiges Schauspiel: Zypern hat Europa gnadenlos vorgeführt (http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/staatsverschuldung/unwuerdiges-schauspiel-in-bruessel-zypern-hat-die-euro-retter-gnadenlos-vorgefuehrt-_aid_947625.html)

And the best thing is: a sequel is guaranteed. The money decided on already is known to be not sufficient. Keep your old tickets, we see you all again soon, same theatre, same show! :yeah:

[yubba]

25% ????? for 100,000 ???? could you imagine being a business owner and loose 25% of your business..

[August]

I'm pro and contra.

The contras (some references use the capitalized form, "Contras") is a label given to the various rebel groups opposing the Sandinista Junta of National Reconstruction government in Nicaragua that were active from 1979 through to the early 1990s. Among the separate contra groups, the Nicaraguan Democratic Force (FDN) emerged as the largest by far. In 1987, virtually all contra organizations were united, at least nominally, into the Nicaraguan Resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

Skybird, I never new you were a Sandinista killer.

[Jimbuna]

The levy is reported to possibly be as high as 30% :o

[Skybird]

contra (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contra)

[Skybird]

The levy is reported to possibly be as high as 30% :o

40. ;) 20-40%.

High deposits at the Laiki bank will even lose up to 90% of their values.

It's the money of the rich and wealthy, for the most Russian. That is why now Putin intervenes and wants to help bailing out the banks.

With the money of ordinary Russian tax payers this time.

Always the same story.

When you give your money to the bank, you are placing a bet. Basic economic theory. You bet on the bank running business that way that it can successfully pay you a promised dividend, which for savings is called "interest". You do not give them "value" to keep it safe for you. I know, that is the ordinary thinking of everybody, it just does not match economic reality. They keep safe for you what you put into a a safe deposit box in their steel room. But a bank account is no safe deposit box. It's a bet.

[August]

contra (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contra)

Latin. Not english.

Pro and Con would be more correct.

Just trying to help...

[Betonov]

Washington post says Slovenia is next and it will be worse :dead:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/24/move-over-cyprus-slovenia-is-the-new-tiny-country-you-should-worry-about/


The comments under the article manage to paint a more accurate picture of our situation

One of the major problems here in Slovenia is that "everyone knows everyone". This way the local wannabe managers (financial thiefs) in tie with scumbag politicians (big banks are in majority owned by the state) made some "friendly loans" that were unsecured. Those loans were then used to buy out the stock of the companies by the people managing them (manager buyouts). Yes it stinks to the high heavens. The companies later either dropped in value or went bankrupt..no way to repay a loan.. The biggest bank NLB is their milking cow...it gets recapitalized over and over by the people so the scum can take advantage of it and funnel the money they make out of the country in places like...Cyprus...


Comparing Slovenia with Cyprus is completely wrong. The only thing the two countries have in common, is the crysis, and that one growing on a totally different basis.
The Slovenes are a very hard-working nation (just to compare, the were making a total of 40% GDP in Yougoslavia, while they presented less than 10% population), whose main problem is simply incompetent politicians, not being able to handle the recession.
Nicely shown from the GDP drop after recession hit worldwide.

The level of graft, corruption and incompetence among the political and business elite are so intertwined, one cannot differentiate between them. The banks were and still are state owned and the politicians dictated who received loans, knowing at the outset ,he funds would not be repaid. Businesses, with government approval, were allowed to stop paying payroll taxes and pension contributions for 5 years, while still collecting and using employee contributions for internal purposes. Slovenia was and still is a banana republic. The Europeans were well aware of the situation prior to their entry into the EU and it was allowed to enter for the sole purpose of serving as buffer zone to Serbia, In the event there was more bloodshed, NATO troops could be moved in.

[Jimbuna]

Empty your piggy bank and save your country the pain :)

[Skybird]

Washington post says Slovenia is next and it will be worse :dead:

Slovenia next? Will be a close race with Luxembourgh for first place.

If one steps back an look at it all, it is amazing how the EU is achieving right the opposite of what it claims it wants to achieve.

It claims to secure peace, but the sentiments between nation's people become more and more hostile.

It claims to secure economic stability, but where ever you look, instability is growing.

It claims to secure security, but all basic pillars of an environment where trade and enterprise would prosper, get systematically destroyed: trust, law and order, independence of constitutional and high courts from government, independence of central banks.

Cyprus next will fall into a deep recession. And then at the latest it will need more money.

It's all sliding from bad to worse, and still nobody in Europe dares to speak out for storming Brussel and setting the EU institutions ablaze.

It seems the pain still is not big enough for still not enough people. Let's wait a while longer then. Since last year I am of very high confidence that in the end the EU will collapse and destroy itself, like the Soviet Union and it's satellites did.

[Jimbuna]

Tighter controls including weekly limits on cash withdrawals and export limits on Euros are being introduced.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21936554

[yubba]

Wars have start over less.

[Bilge_Rat]

Tighter controls including weekly limits on cash withdrawals and export limits on Euros are being introduced.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21936554

What did they expect? the Banking system in Cyprus is dead. Everyone will pull all their cash out as soon as they can.

I have some clients that have had cash frozen in Cyprus, not Russians, but legitimate businesses. Many Canadian businesses use Cyprus companies when investing in Europe because of the favourable tax treaty networks. Now, they are all planning to completely shut down and pull all of their operations from Cyprus. As one said, how can you ever trust the Cypriot government again?

In a more worrying development, many are thinking of pulling out of Europe altogether since if the ECB does this in one EU country what garantee is there that any European Bank is safe?

[August]

It claims to secure peace, but the sentiments between nation's people become more and more hostile.

I'm surprised Europe has been peaceful for this long. Have you folks ever gone 70 years without a war amongst yourselves?

[yubba]

I'm surprised Europe has been peaceful for this long. Have you folks ever gone 70 years without a war amongst yourselves?
I was thinkin you all didn't like us any more,, not draggin us into some kind of war.,, save your butts twice and you hate us no wonder this country is ready to embrace islam.

[August]

I was thinkin you all didn't like us any more,, not draggin us into some kind of war.,, save your butts twice and you hate us no wonder this country is ready to embrace islam.

You all?

[Tribesman]

You all?
Its yubberish.

[Betonov]

I'm surprised Europe has been peaceful for this long. Have you folks ever gone 70 years without a war amongst yourselves?

WW2 was a bit too intense. We're just gathering momentum for a new world war.

Or maybe my grandparents generation helped my parents generation build a society without nationalism and my adventurous generation likes the open borders Europe of today

[HundertzehnGustav]

I'm surprised Europe has been peaceful for this long. Have you folks ever gone 70 years without a war amongst yourselves?

harsh, not nice.

but OH. SO. TRUE.
Thank you for that.

[August]

harsh, not nice.

but OH. SO. TRUE.
Thank you for that.

I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to be harsh. It was just an observation. European history (at least as it is taught over here) is pretty much all about continuous war and conflict at some degree of intensity. Now the last few decades have been an exception to that but it does beg the question how long it can possibly last.

[Betonov]

Now the last few decades have been an exception to that but it does beg the question how long it can possibly last.

As long as the autocracies with their ''gentleman games'' of pre-19th century and the nationalism of pre-1950's never again show up (like it did in the Balkans in the 90's) I'm safe to say indefinately.
Worst case: bloody internal incidents. The Balkans might spark again though, but not in the intensity it did 20 years ago

[mookiemookie]

save your butts twice

Conveniently forgetting how there wouldn't be an America unless they saved our butts.... :roll:

[yubba]

well if it wasn't for america the world would be eatin sourkraut with chop sticks, and speakin french with a russian acsent...:har::har:surfs up and down the tubes we go,,so who's next to have their savings stolen from them,,????

[Skybird]

The money rush fleeing from Cyprus before the official ban became active, seems to have been much worse than previous TARGET analysis seem to have indicated, and seems to have continued after the implementation of the ban. The cash loss escaping now seems to increase massively the overall damage by messing up the original "rescue":haha: calculations. Also worrying: the massive migration of capital despite the official ban seems to have been assisted not only by the accused banks, but by massive assistance from officials inside the central bank as well.

And here the old familiar friend of the Mediterranean way of life raises its ugly head again: say Welcome back! to Mrs. Bakshish and Mr. Corruption.

Blame it on the Gemans as usual. After all it were the Germans rejecting the governments plan to let the small people pay for the rich ones and consume savings below 100,000. And when the government next wanted to destroy the pension funds to use them for bailing out rich Russians, again it were the Germans saying No to that. Damn Teutonic party poopers! Cyprus could sink so beautifully in the waves if these arrogant Nazis would not always interfere. Save Europe from the Germanic storm!

[August]

As long as the autocracies with their ''gentleman games'' of pre-19th century and the nationalism of pre-1950's never again show up (like it did in the Balkans in the 90's) I'm safe to say indefinately.
Worst case: bloody internal incidents. The Balkans might spark again though, but not in the intensity it did 20 years ago

But isn't that stuff just the trappings of the real reasons for conflict? Ie: greed and jealousy?

[yubba]

I thought we studied history so we didn't make the same mistakes they did in the past,, so why are we re-livin the 1930s under the 3rd term of Jimmy Carter ???????

[Sailor Steve]

Carter was president in the 1930s?

[STEED]

So when do the banks open again, Thursday or Friday or a week next Wednesday, no one seems to have a answer.

[Buddahaid]

I thought we studied history so we didn't make the same mistakes they did in the past,, so why are we re-livin the 1930s under the 3rd term of Jimmy Carter ???????

Is there a Google translation app for this? :doh:

[yubba]

Let me walk you through it, 2 terms of Obama is like, or equals to 3 terms of Jimmy Carter,,, I think you can figure out the rest,, still haven trouble with that freedom thing ???? and I know you'll say the people have spoken,, ooohh like the people spoke in california and you libs didn't like the outcome so you have to take it all the way to the supreme court,,prop 8.. booo hoooo the people don't like your agenda and you go running to the courts to ram it down our throats..

[Buddahaid]

No trouble with the freedom thing at all and I thought your Carter reference was about Obama. But you speak in riddles with lot's of baggage added on like a congressmen floating ridiculous riders on unrelated bills.

And prop 8 is being challenged as unconstitutional. Something you espouse daily regarding the second amendment, or is that an (Amen)dment now?

[Betonov]

But isn't that stuff just the trappings of the real reasons for conflict? Ie: greed and jealousy?

Yep, but the lack of devotion to our leaders and nationalism prevents a popular movement for a war.

[Hottentot]

European history (at least as it is taught over here) is pretty much all about continuous war and conflict at some degree of intensity.

It's easy to concentrate on wars in history and especially in teaching it, because wars are quick and simple ways of showing progress. They are often turning points: first this, then war, after the war that. Insert any kind of progress you want in the place of "this" and "that". Wars usually last for a few years, whereas other kind of development may take at least decades. The latter takes longer to explain or even notice.

Not saying that wars don't exist in the European history. The continent has a bloody past. But it would be equally possible to write the peaceful history of Europe. Many monographs take this perspective. The problem is that the monographs are not studied by the majority of people, because the majority of the people get their knowledge of history from school, where the time and resources are more limited.

History is always choices from the past. These choices can change: as the EU has become more prominent, so is the history taking different perspective these days.



well if it wasn't for america the world would be eatin sourkraut with chop sticks, and speakin french with a russian acsent...:har::har:

Were you there to save the world from that? If not, then that's pretty disgusting behavior. :nope:

[Betonov]

A European did coin the saying: peace is only the curtain between acts.

Hotts explained it more or less. And most wars werent intense years ob carngage but mostly one battle decides winner affairs

[August]

A European did coin the saying: peace is only the curtain between acts.

Hotts explained it more or less. And most wars werent intense years ob carngage but mostly one battle decides winner affairs

When was the last time Europe went through such a long period of peace and stability? Don't get me wrong I like that Europe has been able to maintain the current state for so long and I have no wish to see it end. After all I have kin over there.

[Betonov]

There was 40 years of peace in the 19th century which ended with WW1.

But 70 years ?? that's a first one.

I don't mind you asking. I'm not ashamed of the bloody history of my land.
Napolen had to invade Austria and seed the Slovene nationalism with the Illirian provinces, first time that Slovenes had any autonomy, WW1 had to happen so the Slavic nations of the Balkan regained independence from the Empires, WW2 had to happen so Slovenia and Croatia regained Istria and our ports from Italy and the balkan wars of 1990's had to happen so we regained our complete independence. Without the bloodshed of the last 200 years our capitol would still be Vienna.

[Skybird]

Thanks to the Sovjets. They left us no other choice than to get our acts together. Now that they are gone, it all falls apart again. :D

Oh, wait. We are being fed day in, day out that it is the Euro that has brought peace and stability to Europe. If that is true, WWII must have ended sometime around the very late 90s, and the cold war against the Sovjets never took place. :hmmm:

[HundertzehnGustav]

I'm sorry, it wasn't meant to be harsh. It was just an observation. European history (at least as it is taught over here) is pretty much all about continuous war and conflict at some degree of intensity. Now the last few decades have been an exception to that but it does beg the question how long it can possibly last.

i did not feel offended.
you put the focus on something that many have forgotten...
never has the western part of the continent seen such a long time of non-war.
of tolerating each other (teeth griotting, then gradually turning to cooperation.

and yes, i am asking myself the same questions.
how long before one country draws a line, say "i quit, funk all of you" and maybe starts to attack his weakest neighbor.

Say, the spanish quit, are mad as hell, maybe even team up with the portuguese, the portuuguese quit too, and start marching to paris.

Or... the french people having to pay this "20% tax" and start constructiing a guillautine again for their banksters, top politicians and lobbyists (the nobles of today ;) )... and the french army staging massacre after massacre.
The germans Joining in the "fun" , overrunning my country again (as a sidenote...)

Who knows what is next.
taking from average Joe, because the EU wants, and the EU can, in this era of virtual Money...

It might come to real bloodshed.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Thanks to the Sovjets. They left us no other choice than to get our acts together. Now that they are gone, it all falls apart again. :D

Oh, wait. We are being fed day in, day out that it is the Euro that has brought peace and stability to Europe. If that is true, WWII must have ended sometime around the very late 90s, and the cold war against the Sovjets never took place. :hmmm:


Bumm tzzzzzz! :D

good point.

we need to get our act together.
basta.
top comment.:yeah:

[mookiemookie]

Not saying that wars don't exist in the European history. The continent has a bloody past. But it would be equally possible to write the peaceful history of Europe. Many monographs take this perspective. The problem is that the monographs are not studied by the majority of people, because the majority of the people get their knowledge of history from school, where the time and resources are more limited.

Kind of funny how the standard historical narrative of America neglects to mention that if you count the Revoltion, the War of 1812, the Mexican American War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, the wars against the Indians, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq again and Libya, we've been in armed conflict more often than not during our history as a nation.

[Oberon]

There was 40 years of peace in the 19th century which ended with WW1.

But 70 years ?? that's a first one.

I don't mind you asking. I'm not ashamed of the bloody history of my land.
Napolen had to invade Austria and seed the Slovene nationalism with the Illirian provinces, first time that Slovenes had any autonomy, WW1 had to happen so the Slavic nations of the Balkan regained independence from the Empires, WW2 had to happen so Slovenia and Croatia regained Istria and our ports from Italy and the balkan wars of 1990's had to happen so we regained our complete independence. Without the bloodshed of the last 200 years our capitol would still be Vienna.

207 years of (relative) peace during Pax Romana.
There was also about twenty-three years in the 1600s when Spain got the upper hand in one of the many political manoeuvrings of the time.

The problem in comparing peace in Europe to peace in America or anywhere else is that up until recently Europe was filled with superpowers who were living pretty much on each others laps, so it was a constant political and by extension of that political, military, struggle to stay a dominant power in a sea of dominant powers.

[Hottentot]

Kind of funny how the standard historical narrative of America neglects to mention that if you count the Revoltion, the War of 1812, the Mexican American War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, the wars against the Indians, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq again and Libya, we've been in armed conflict more often than not during our history as a nation.

The same thing, Mookie. You choose the perspective. You just have to, you'll become mad otherwise. Whether the perspective is good or bad is debatable, but people who are demanding history without a perspective are like me demanding physics to reverse the gravity so I'll have easier time picking apples from the higher branches of the tree. And they exist. Mind boggles. :-?


The problem in comparing peace in Europe to peace in America or anywhere else is that up until recently Europe was filled with superpowers who were living pretty much on each others laps, so it was a constant political and by extension of that political, military, struggle to stay a dominant power in a sea of dominant powers.

Not to mention that "Europe" hasn't been, is not and despite of the scaremongers most likely won't anytime soon effectively become one single nation. I, for example, find it funny to get categorized in the Europe that got saved from the Nazis in WW2, when in fact my countrymen were being shot at by American and British manufactured planes when fighting the Soviets. Though granted they were using American and British manufactured planes to do the same to their enemies.

[Tribesman]

I, for example, find it funny to get categorized in the Europe that got saved from the Nazis in WW2
Not to mention the swedes or the swiss as they don't fit either.
So instead lets mention Spain and Portugal, who saved them from the nazis ?
Are they not in europe or does their fascist regimes make it a bit more complicated?

[Rhodes]

Not to mention the swedes or the swiss as they don't fit either.
So instead lets mention Spain and Portugal, who saved them from the nazis ?
Are they not in europe or does their fascist regimes make it a bit more complicated?

We save our self, since we have a long tradition of "deseranscanço" (sorry can not translate this).
The fascist regimes of the Portugal and Spain were unique in same way, with similarities and differences with the fascist regimes.
The "Salazarism" can be put in the same bag as all the right-wing dictatorships but was very different Italian, German and even Spanish one. Salazar was a able international politician, that manage to get along with the devil and god in a manner of speaking.
The Azores matter caught the allies of guard. And we had our way of crazy things, the country mourn the death of a great german statist, Hitler (because he had that connotation here), with flags at half post and a few days after we celebrate the victory day and the end of war in Europe!:huh:
Of course that the soviet flag was not allowed to be show in that festivity...

[Betonov]

You didn't saved us. You helped us. A lot.

If we take into account that if the war lasted a year longer my grandfather would have been killed I can say you saved me. Bu nation wise it was American help. A joint operation by the Allies and Resistance movements

[BossMark]

With the recession, cold weather extending into Spring and soaring energy prices, many people in Britain are financially close to breaking point.

I'm not worried though, I'm moving to Cyprus next week.

[Hottentot]

Not to mention the swedes or the swiss as they don't fit either.
So instead lets mention Spain and Portugal, who saved them from the nazis ?
Are they not in europe or does their fascist regimes make it a bit more complicated?

Underlines the point nicely. You're Irish. I'm a Finn. We are both supposed to be Europeans, yet on national level I have much more in common with, say, the Russians than with the Irish. Yet we are somehow both supposed to be the same because one size fits all? :doh:

[August]

Underlines the point nicely. You're Irish. I'm a Finn. We are both supposed to be Europeans, yet on national level I have much more in common with, say, the Russians than with the Irish. Yet we are somehow both supposed to be the same because one size fits all? :doh:

I don't adhere to the belief that we "saved" Europe but to play the Devils advocate for a moment one might make the argument that participating or not, helping the enemy or not, their defeat saved you from eventual subjugation by a power bent on world domination.

[Buddahaid]

Underlines the point nicely. You're Irish. I'm a Finn. We are both supposed to be Europeans, yet on national level I have much more in common with, say, the Russians than with the Irish. Yet we are somehow both supposed to be the same because one size fits all? :doh:

Welcome to the melting pot.

[Betonov]

I don't adhere to the belief that we "saved" Europe but to play the Devils advocate for a moment one might make the argument that participating or not, helping the enemy or not, their defeat saved you from eventual subjugation by a power bent on world domination.

Yep, and thanks for the help.

Did you know that one of the SOE operatives Allied leaders used to communicate and with and supply the Yugoslav resistance was Christopher Lee (Saruman himself) and he frequently visited Slovenia and Croatia because of the war memories

[Hottentot]

I don't adhere to the belief that we "saved" Europe but to play the Devils advocate for a moment one might make the argument that participating or not, helping the enemy or not, their defeat saved you from eventual subjugation by a power bent on world domination.

The example I brought up is just one issue in the bigger problem that keeps popping up on this forum too: it's too simple to say "Euro this" and "Euro that" and there is no "Euros versus [insert group]". I don't consider anyone here better or worse because he happens to be from the same continent as I am. I'm not "Euro". It's about as silly to say that "The Africans" this or that. Europe is not a nation or a single entity.

[August]

The example I brought up is just one issue in the bigger problem that keeps popping up on this forum too: it's too simple to say "Euro this" and "Euro that" and there is no "Euros versus [insert group]". I don't consider anyone here better or worse because he happens to be from the same continent as I am. I'm not "Euro". It's about as silly to say that "The Africans" this or that. Europe is not a nation or a single entity.

I would argue that in the eyes of the rest of the world you pretty much are one entity. I do understand what you're saying though. I get the same feeling when people refer to us as "You Americans".

[Dowly]

I get the same feeling when people refer to us as "You Americans".

Well you guys are Americans, right? :O:

[Hottentot]

I would argue that in the eyes of the rest of the world you pretty much are one entity.

No arguments there, especially since that's what we are officially trying to become with the EU. But if you look at the history, that's not the case. To suddenly try to lump multiple nations, people, cultures and especially their pasts into "European history" and call them "Euros" is absurd. No sensible people would give up something as important to their identity as their history.

We can take and are indeed taking a more global perspective to it, sure, but in the end the basic components of "European history" are still Finnish history, German history, Polish history, Swedish history, Irish history...the list goes on. You don't see people lumping the history of all the North American nations into the "American history" either and wondering why the United States has such a huge problems with the drug cartels, since hey, Mexico is on the same continent so it's almost the same.


I do understand what you're saying though. I get the same feeling when people refer to us as "You Americans".

Yeah, I try to avoid that myself specifically because I find it equally silly to lump, what, 315 million people into just one group and know that the states have their own identities. The fact still remains that the United States is a nation and based on what I've observed, you are far more prone to talking about "us" than the people from Europe are.

[August]

Well you guys are Americans, right? :O:

Yep and darn proud of it! :salute:

[Skybird]

If the EU crisis has achieved anything, then to illustrate to the world how deep the differences and the rifts over here are, the differences in lifestyles, political culture, mentalities, methods of understanding economy and business. And hoe easily people understand the EU to be a magic fountain that popurs down honey and money on everybody, while nobody cares for that the oeny is coming from somebody else, at his cost.

We are not one entity called Europe, not at all. The term "Europe" always and necessarily must imply the plural. There is little or nothing that links the Fin to the Maltese, the German to the Cypriot, the Polish to the Maltese. Different life styles. Different identities. Different - well, different everythings.

What politicians say - who cares for them anymore anyway. For them, denying realities that they do not like is part of their most favourite hobby.

Internatonally, diplomatically the EU is not seen as one actor, to, but a kindergarden speaking with many voices and some EU operetta stars yelling louder than all others. Chinese, Indians, Russians and even Obama bypass the EU representatives on internationall conferences sometimes, and make their talks without even giving the EU clowns a note on the meeting. So much for taking the Europeans as a serious entity. :)

I believe in separation. It is working nice in keeping peace, for it avoids the conflicts rising from enforced integration and crowding together different people that do not match well. Were there are separate camps, their is awareness and tolerance for differences without any need to defend oneself against the claims by the other that one must do like he does. Where there are different camps,l their blossoms trade. There is value-capital generated. Wealth not basing on debts and redistribution, but basing on products and goods. Local differences and leaving them different if they want, is great. It has the greatest chance of all scenarios to secure peace.

The EU wants to centelaise control, and deny differences, and force together what does not match well together, and making everybody available to every foreigner from somewhere else. That does not only cause economic havoc, as we see, it also turns the whole continent into a pressure cooker. In some places the emergency valves are already whistling and fuming. Ignore it some more time, and the whole damn thing will explode. Bon Appetit.