Two perspectives on Israel

[Skybird]

LINK: Sweden (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=306097&R=R1):

To the 20,000 members of Sweden’s Jewish community, anti-Semitism has become a growing problem. Jews identifiable by dress or otherwise have suffered threats and violence.

The Jewish community center in the city of Malmo was fire-bombed and its cemetery desecrated.

This comes after worrying political signals. Malmo’s mayor stated that “[w]e accept neither anti-Semitism nor Zionism in Malmo” and openly advised the Jewish community that they would gain protection from violence and problems if they “distance themselves from Israel.”

Malmö is a European hotspot and notorious trouble zone regarding Islamic racism and hate crime against Jews. A significant part of the Jewish community has fled from that area in the past 10 years, due to violence and racism coming from growing numbers of Islamic "migrants". Sweden traditionally reacts to Muslim bullying with appeasement and following a heavily biased anti-Israel course diplomatically, while by lip-confessions claiming the opposite. But it is the deeds that count to me, not the lip confessions.

LINK Canada (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tahir-gora/canadian-muslims-in-an-ef_b_2881616.html):

Why is it in the interest of Muslims in Canada to recognize Israel's rights to exist? This was the question posed by a speaker in a seminar in Mississauga a couple days ago arranged by the Canadian Thinkers' Forum.

Muslim Committee against anti-Semitism under the umbrella of Canadian Thinkers' Forum put together speakers from Muslim, Christian and Jewish Diaspora in terms of finding the way to convince Islamic nations to recognize Israel's rights to exist.

The Muslim Committee has a simple answer that none of the Jews, Christians, Muslims and other religious or non-religious people in the Middle East are willing to die except groups like Hamas trained terrorists and suicide bombers.

A rare signal of reason and sanity on an issue that seems to be beyond reason and sanity.

[reignofdeath]

LINK: Sweden (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=306097&R=R1):

Malmö is a European hotspot and notorious trouble zone regarding Islamic racism and hate crime against Jews. A significant part of the Jewish community has fled from that area in the past 10 years, due to violence and racism coming from growing numbers of Islamic "migrants". Sweden traditionally reacts to Muslim bullying with appeasement and following a heavily biased anti-Israel course diplomatically, while by lip-confessions claiming the opposite. But it is the deeds that count to me, not the lip confessions.

LINK Canada (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tahir-gora/canadian-muslims-in-an-ef_b_2881616.html):

A rare signal of reason and sanity on an issue that seems to be beyond reason and sanity.
I am very pleased to see that about Canada, and am highly against racism in any form. Being in the Navy has taught me many things (coming from a very 'hick' area with 'hick' views), and one of them is that peoples color and background do not matter, it is their actions that define the person.

As far as the threats and the appeasement, I can't say much since I have never been to Sweden but I will say its things like these that need to be stamped out. As well as the other end of the spectrum which is, "our race/religion/people/etc. were abused in years past we want a compensation." I feel like both sides contribute to the growing divide, which is sad. I feel for those people and what past they have endured and even the present Hell they may live in, but to state that you deserve more because of the way you are/were treated is to me extremely arrogant. There will always be people who do not understand your way of life or your thought process due to your background, and you know what you do, accept it, get over it, and keep trying to be a better you than you were yesterday.

I hope that does not offend anyone, just my two cents. If you are a hardworking, honest, and truthful person, you are more than alright in my book.

[Skybird]

[/B]
I hope that does not offend anyone, just my two cents.
:-?
And even if it would - no need to apologize for your opinion as long as you can show reasonable argument to base it upon. :) That somebody feels offended cannot be an argument to censor opinions and free speech.

[MH]

Yes , everyone need to have perspective on Israel.:haha:

[Skybird]

Possible policy change with Obama, now demanding Palestinian Arabs to unconditionally recognize Israel as a Jewish state, without backdoors?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/26/obama-to-palestinians-accept-the-jewish-state/

[MH]

If those are not just hollow speeches then there may be a hope for some resolution here.

It about time for Obama to undo his early mistakes on the whole issue.
Someone should had make it clear for Palestinians long time ago that they cant have both ways....that is two Palestinian states next to each other.
(issue of refugees is bound with the Jewish state thing)

Off course with the ME situation it would be also very risky to have totally independent Palestinian state without the IDF paroling its Jordan valley border next to kingdom of Jordan.
I wonder if king Abdala of Jordan would like such situation arise :)

Anyway im not too optimistic but that is (another:03:) start that hopefully will not end with IDF needing to take Rammalh or declaring blockade of west bank.
That is if current government will pursue this idea at all which i hope it will but carefully.

[AlanBStard]

Malmö is a European hotspot and notorious trouble zone regarding Islamic racism and hate crime against Jews. A significant part of the Jewish community has fled from that area in the past 10 years, due to violence and racism coming from growing numbers of Islamic "migrants".

Actually, just about any Swede or European who lives in Malmö will flee if given the opportunity, except for those who live in the very expensive areas (like Limhamn) inhabited by Malmös wealthiest. Fleeing across the Öresund straights to neighbouring Copenhagen in Denmark will decrease your risk of getting mugged by 75% (as of 2006, probably more by now).

Sweden traditionally reacts to Muslim bullying with appeasement and following a heavily biased anti-Israel course diplomatically, while by lip-confessions claiming the opposite. But it is the deeds that count to me, not the lip confessions.

Hogwash on 2 accounts:
1) Forget about lip confessions, there are none. The Swedish government is open about it's stance against Israel (although not quite as outspoken as 10 years ago) just as it was openly against South Africa during their apartheid regime.
2) Sweden's anti-Israel stance is because of the Israeli apartheid regime. If by Muslim bullying you mean the robberies and rapes commited by MENA (Middle East+North Africa+Somalia) immigrants, the government doesn't even care about the sky rocketing crime rates, so they don't change their foreign policy to appease the criminals. The policy has been the same since long before immigration from MENA countries turned our suburbs to crime infested ghettoes.

[Cybermat47]

^^^^

WELCOME
TO
SUBSIM!

What an entrance! :rock:

[Red October1984]

What an entrance! :rock:

That guy....just picked an argument with Skybird..... :timeout: :o

Sorry new guy...you are going to be locked in an intense battle very soon. :03:

P.S. Welcome to Subsim. :D :O:

[Skybird]

To complain about Israel'S "apartheid" but apparently having no objections to Israel'S enemy claiming the right to destroy Israel, use of terrorism, stepping back from all temporary negotiation agreements in a bid to get all what it wants without needing to compromise, and not complaining much about the immense terrorism Israel has faced and still faces, says which thinking's brainchild the debator is. And it is this die-hard one-sided bias that forgives the attacker all and accuses the victim of everything that has made Sweden so famous for itsr anti-Israeli views even by the standards of the already quite anti-Israeli EU-policies. Naturally, they have no problem with the racism and hate-dripping education young Palestinian Arabs get raised with at all. But dare to have a cartoon posted that offends precious Muslim sensitivity! Swedish voices were amongst the most prominent and loudest recommending Europe to act with more self-censorship when using their freedom of speech.

Before lecturing Israel about its lacking right for self-defense, maybe better try to stop the many incidents of physical harassments and attacks of Muslims against Jews in and around Malmö. Malmö is one of the hotspots of European Muslim racism and racism-founded refusal to integrate. so if no longer only the Jews flee from there, but native Swedish non-Jews as well, this is no surprise.

Google search on "Sweden anti Israel" or something like that will quickly reveal the full scale of Sweden's stand on Israel. Sweden is probably the strongest European ally of ME radical islam and radical Arabs in the ME, maybe beside France. And let'S not be mistaken, this anti-Israeli position bases in full on clear and true anti-Jewish sentiments as well. The level of antisemitism in Sweden is only compared by researchers to that found in the traditional antisemitic social-political spectrum of Germany and Austria.

Just three random links of so many possible to put up here:

http://swedenisrael.blogspot.de/2013/01/ilya-meyer-on-current-and-past-swedish.html

http://ilyameyer.com/english/2013/03/08/blatant-indoctrination-in-pa-and-unrwa-schools/

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/ilya-meyer/

The truth is quite simple. Sweden in principle wants Israel being wiped off the map and shake hands with the Arabs over the accomplished task. That, plain and simple. Thus the many political advices, one-sided demands and recipes given for how to commit cultural and national suicide, demonizing Israel all the way. It is about turning back the clocks by 70 years.

[Tribesman]

To complain about Israel'S "apartheid" but apparently having no objections to Israel'S enemy claiming the right to destroy Israel, stepping back from all temproary negotiation agreements in a bid to get all what it wants withiout needing to compromise, and not complaining much about the immense terrorism Israel has faced and still faces, says which thinking'S brainchild the debator is. And it is this die-hard one-sided bias that forgives the attacker all and accuses the victim of everything that has made Finland, Sweden so famous for their anti-Israelic views even by the standards of the already quite anti-Israeli EU-policies.
Lesson 1 Alan B'stard.
Always expect the amazing attack of the strawman
Lesson 2.
Expect a series of links that are as unbised as a Hamas publication

[MH]

Is there apartheid in Israel?
That is something you should've start with.
If it is then it is also in germany sweeden and so on....

[Bilge_Rat]

Is there apartheid in Israel?
That is something you should've start with.
If it is then it is also in germany sweeden and so on....

yah, for some reason people are always very quick to find faults in Israel, but conveniently overlook all the human rights abuses in all other countries in the ME. Funny how that works...:yep:

[Tribesman]

yah, for some reason people are always very quick to find faults in Israel, but conveniently overlook all the human rights abuses in all other countries in the ME. Funny how that works...:yep:
Which people?
What is funny about the way it works is those people who fault only one side be it the israeli side or the palestinians, or those that queue up to defend the very things they condemn depending on which country is doing exactly the same thing.

[Skybird]

After the terror blast on a bus in Hungary, Germany seems to be part of a very small minority in Europe that demands that the Hezbollah finally is being pout on the EU terror list. Most are against it. They fear that this move would make it difficult for them to maintain talks with this terror organization that without discrimination targets civilian people, and does not shy away to put its own people in harm'S way and force them with drawn weapons to serve as human shields and get them killed to score in the media propaganda war by having nice pictures of the bodies. That does nto stop most European politicians from wantin g to shake hands with these murderers.

The argument often given is that Hezbollah runs a recruiting program deceiving itself as social wellfare, and that even when its school teach blatant hate and murder and demonization of Jews and diffamation of Christians, they nevertheless are schools.

Well, if you enter a bank and shoot the staff and steal the money and distribute it to the poor and unemployed, your act nevertheless is that of a robbery and murder and yourself still fit the description of a murderer.

[Safe-Keeper]

Always expect the amazing attack of the strawmanI didn't see strawmen in his post, I saw a description of lots an lots of "Palestine supporters" I've had the displeasure of speaking to over the years. While it might not have applied to anyone in this thread, I don't think it was intended to, either.

2) Sweden's anti-Israel stance is because of the Israeli apartheid regime.Just a little tip before I ask you for a source for that statement: when discussing Israel or in fact any country with someone, throwing out accusations like "apartheid" without any logical foundation (or apparent understanding about what the word even means) is a very, very good way to paint yourself as a zealot, ensuring you will not be taken seriously.
I'm not saying this to attack you, I'm genuenly trying to help you out here.

An Apartheid state is one that has a systematic, government-sanctioned divide between two groups based on their ethnic belonging. In an apartheid country, you have different schools, hospitals, buses, toilets, neighbourhoods and even drinking fountains and benches for the different groups. Group A doesn't get to share any kind of facility with Group B, and if they do, they have to be kept separate (coloured people confined to the back of buses in the US, for example). From top to bottom, Apartheid states are segregated regimes.

Israel, whose ambassador in Norway is Arabic, and which lets foreigners (including Arabs in the Palestinian areas) visit and receive the same education and medical care as the citizens, at the same facilities, at the same cost, and where miss Israel is an Arab, is not, by any kind of definition, an Apartheid country unless you really cherry-pick incidents and policies and twist the definition of the word to the unrecognisable.

As another poster said, though, while you can do this with words like "terror state", "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing", doing this would mean most other countries, both in and outside of the Western world, would also suddenly become apartheid regimes, terror states, ethnic cleansers, etc.

Oh, and: got a source for that statement?

[Tribesman]

I didn't see strawmen in his post
Really?
It makes a huge assumption against the individual concerned and attacks that assumption.
Secondly it flies in the face of the very public policies of the country in question so is also attacking another non existant arguement.

I saw a description of lots an lots of "Palestine supporters" I've had the displeasure of speaking to over the years
Yes, and you can put them on the same level as lots of Israel "supporters".
But on an individual level and a national level the arguement is false so it is a strawman he is after building.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome

[Skybird]

A French court today has sentenced Air France over claims of discrimination for having separated out a Palestinian activist from a flight to Israel, because the French learned that the woman was on a black list in Israel and was banned from entering the country, and international regulations demand carriers to not transport persons of whom it is known to the carrier that the authorities at the destination will not allow them into their nation. The French acted late, but in congruence with international rules and demands. The court obviously implied that since it was a Palestinian Arab heading for protesting the Gaza blockade, Air France should have violated international rules and should have transported the woman nevertheless.

[Tribesman]

A French court today has sentenced Air France over claims of discrimination for having separated out a Palestinian activist from a flight to Israel, because the French learned that the woman was on a black list in Israel and was banned from entering the country, and international regulations demand carriers to not transport persons of whom it is known to the carrier that the authorities at the destination will not allow them into their nation. The French acted late, but in congruence with international rules and demands. The court obviously implied that since it was a Palestinian Arab heading for protesting the Gaza blockade, Air France should have violated international rules and should have transported the woman nevertheless.
The same story but from the Israeli media......

When she was already on the plane, an airline employee asked whether or not the nursing student had an Israeli passport. When she replied that she didn't, AFP reported, she was asked whether or not she was Jewish. When she answered no again, she was taken off the plane in Nice, southeastern France.

...so she won the case because air france removed her because she was not Jewish, she wouldn't have had a case if they had asked the right question...but they didn't.

[Safe-Keeper]

Really?
It makes a huge assumption against the individual concerned and attacks that assumption.Still not much of a strawman, more like Skybird's (perhaps flawed) observation.

If you call Israel an "apartheid state" because of its security measures does strongly indicate that you don't appreciate/know about/care about Israel's security situation.

The argument often given is that Hezbollah runs a recruiting program deceiving itself as social wellfare, and that even when its school teach blatant hate and murder and demonization of Jews and diffamation of Christians, they nevertheless are schools. Lucky you. The argument I most often hear here in Norway is "but they're just defending their country!", "but Israel does this and that, quick, look at Israel", or "you would've done the same thing had you been in their shoes".

Apparently you live in a more sophisticated country than I do.

The court obviously implied that since it was a Palestinian Arab heading for protesting the Gaza blockade, Air France should have violated international rules and should have transported the woman nevertheless. Which blockade (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Israeli_humanitarian_lifeline_Gaza_25-May-2010.htm)?

[Skybird]

The naval blockade of Gaza which legally is a case in itself, not linked to any blockade on land. International law regulates the formalities of a blockade at sea. the Israelis have been confirmed to be in full compliance with these rules, the blockade has been found to be formally legal both in reason and implementation. Just one single ship or boat managing to break through would nullify the legal formal validity of that blockade - the blockade would have been been broken up then.

That is why Israel makes no exceptions, for nobody. - They cannot, due to the rules. A single small boat landing at Gaza from sea formally would lift the blockade. To maintain it beyond that would then make the Israeli cause a formally illegal one.

It's a bit of an idiocy in my eyes, but that is what the rules are like.

Not sure what you mean on Palestinian brainwashing of their children. I only can say it is daily children's TV programs, and it is the most malicious kind of diffamation and demonization one can imagine, comparing to the most evil stuff produced by European antisemitism in past eras, or the Nazi propaganda machinery.

[Safe-Keeper]

Maybe I misread your post. I was talking about arguments defending/excusing Hizbollah.

Yes, and you can put them on the same level as lots of Israel "supporters".Really? I've never heard many false accusations of apartheid or terrorism in Palestinian areas from Israel supporters. Perhaps you are referring to the statements about the actual terrorism from Arabs, or the systematic oppression and eviction of Jews and Christians from Arab countries?

Because, um, it's a different thing entirely to accuse people of these things when they are actually guilty of them. Just so you know.

[Tribesman]

Which blockade (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Israeli_humanitarian_lifeline_Gaza_25-May-2010.htm)?
To use your source, which is of course unbiased:03:

Despite attacks by Hamas, Israel maintains an ongoing humanitarian corridor for the transfer of food and humanitarian supplies to Gaza, used by internationally recognized organizations including the United Nations and the Red Cross.

Both of those internationally recognised organisation formally complained that vital resources were blocked and that the approved crossings were unable to handle even the minimum required volume of humanitarian aid which Israel is obliged to let in.
Though since the worldwide objections to the action and another senseless round of violence Israel has relaxed the conditions and now allows passage of such "illegal terrorist goods" like errrrr...pasta, blankets and paper for example.:yep:


Onto more of the usual rubbish
International law regulates the formalities of a blockade at sea. the Israelis have been confirmed to be in full compliance with these rules, the blockade has been found to be formally legal both in reason and implementation.
No they havn't, and they have publicly apologised for errors in both compliance and in implimentation.:know:

Just one single ship or boat managing to break through would nullify the legal formal validity of that blockade - the blockade would have been been broken up then.

A breach of the blockade in no way alters the legality of a blockade, that is like saying an illegal alien entering a country nullifies all immigration laws
:doh:


So it does raise a question, why are you two such ardent supporters of Hamas?
After all they are the only ones really benefitting from the blockade you seem to be in favour of

[Safe-Keeper]

To use your source, which is of course unbiased:03:What a strange strawman. I never claimed it to be unbiased. Should I?

Both of those internationally recognised organisation formally complained that vital resources were blocked and that the approved crossings were unable to handle even the minimum required volume of humanitarian aid which Israel is obliged to let in.A pity, but possibly an unavoidable consequence of tight border control, which is in turn pretty much an unavoidable consequence in a conflict zone.

Though since the worldwide objections to the action and another senseless round of violence Israel has relaxed the conditions and now allows passage of such "illegal terrorist goods" like errrrr...pasta, blankets and paper for example.:yep:Somebody has claimed that pasta is a terrorist good? All I know is that it was banned for import into Gaza because pasta is not recognized as humanitarian aid. I haven't looked deeper into it than that (not that you have, either, and I'm not surprised), but then again, pasta was not exactly neccessary for survival, last time I checked.

No they havn't, and they have publicly apologised for errors in both compliance and in implimentation.:know:And here I was thinking Israel was the only nation in the world able to run blockades perfectly:-?.

So it does raise a question, why are you two such ardent supporters of Hamas?No, by all means, don't try to take this seriously.

[Tribesman]

What a strange strawman. I never claimed it to be unbiased. Should I?

Just pointing it out, its always best to use a neutral source, or even better make it a source from the opposite end of the spetcrum.

A pity, but possibly an unavoidable consequence of tight border control, which is in turn pretty much an unavoidable consequence in a conflict zone.

What border?

Somebody has claimed that pasta is a terrorist good? All I know is that it was banned for import into Gaza because pasta is not recognized as humanitarian aid. I haven't looked deeper into it than that (not that you have, either, and I'm not surprised), but then again, pasta was not exactly neccessary for survival, last time I checked.

Pasta is food and food cannot be blocked from humanitarian aid.

And here I was thinking Israel was the only nation in the world able to run blockades perfectly
Since that was not you being quoted your point is?

No, by all means, don't try to take this seriously.
That was serious.
Its a sad fact that the most strident supporters of either side are that sides own worst enemy.

[MH]

Just pointing it out, its always best to use a neutral source, or even better make it a source from the opposite end of the spetcrum.
Very good Tribesman.
all you need is improve your precessing skills.:rotfl2:

[Safe-Keeper]

Its a sad fact that the most strident supporters of either side are that sides own worst enemy. Sorry, but no. I don't see how HAMAS benefits from a blockade/border control that prevents them from freely importing the goods and weapons they require to keep killing innocent people.

[MH]

Sorry, but no. I don't see how HAMAS benefits from a blockade/border control that prevents them from freely importing the goods and weapons they require to keep killing innocent people.

He will tell you that blockade makes hamas and alike more popular and so on.

[Tribesman]

Sorry, but no. I don't see how HAMAS benefits from a blockade/border control that prevents them from freely importing the goods and weapons they require to keep killing innocent people.
In that case I suggest you look and think.
The tunnels are a good place to look at for starters

He will tell you that blockade makes hamas and alike more popular and so on.
Sorry disapoint you on your simplistic view but no, I was going to suggest he starts with something basic in the blockade like cement which HAMAS has plenty of but the Red Cross and UN have trouble importing.
Then perhaps move onto the wider range of goods they smuggle, then consider how much money they are raking in from it and what terrorist organisations like to spend their money on.

[MH]

In that case I suggest you look and think.
The tunnels are a good place to look at for starters


Sorry disapoint you on your simplistic view but no, I was going to suggest he starts with something basic in the blockade like cement which HAMAS has plenty of but the Red Cross and UN have trouble importing.
Then perhaps move onto the wider range of goods they smuggle, then consider how much money they are raking in from it and what terrorist organisations like to spend their money on.

Thats not my view...
Money is not the issue but nice try.... you are genius.:haha:
So sophisticated.

[Tribesman]

Thats not my view...

So what you said was not your view.
Have you become a split personality then?
Or was that evident already when you go into your bunkervision mode on questions relating to Israel or the occupied territories

Money is not the issue but nice try....
If you think funding of terrorists is not the issue then you really are lost.
However to be on the safe side you might want to write to your government as they foolishly seem to believe that blocking funding to HAMAS is vital and I am sure they would be grateful if you could put them right on the matter.

[MH]

lol tribesman just lol:har:
carry on.:salute:

[mapuc]

I'm not so much into this Palestine-Israel problems

However I'm 150% convinced that 95-98 % of the population on both side have no problems living together with a Jew/Muslim

Markus

[Skybird]

I'm not so much into this Palestine-Israel problems

However I'm 150% convinced that 95-98 % of the population on both side have no problems living together with a Jew/Muslim

Markus

When Muslims in Europe already by relative majority, sometimes absolute majorities, say they do not want Jews as neighbours, I wouldn'T be so optimistic like you claim you are in case of Palestinian Arabs in the ME.

[Safe-Keeper]

However I'm 150% convinced that 95-98 % of the population on both side have no problems living together with a Jew/MuslimI'm sure the majority genuenly want peace, most civilians do. You are being pretty naive about their attitude to Jews, though, I'm afraid. In the last decades, the Arab world (yes, pretty much all of it) has been made practically "Jew-free".

The Arabs in Palestinian areas (the ones who themselves their own de facto nationality and took to calling themselves "Palestinians" in the 1970's) grow up in an extremely Israel-hostile environment where many of them (not sure if it's the same all over) are indoctrinated to hate Israel and Jews from kindergarten level, through their schooling and TV programmes. Recordings like these (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=palestinians+taught+to+hate+j ews&oq=palestinians+taught+to+hate+jews&gs_l=youtube.3..33i21.292971.296495.0.296607.32.29 .0.1.1.0.200.3189.10j17j1.28.0...0.0...1ac.1.jtU1J LUp5Y8) aren't exceptions or isolated incidents, they are the rule.

But sure, it's the wall and blockade and settlements that are the real obstacle to peace. Never mind that when neither existed the Arabs were already trying to wipe Israel and the Jews off the map, or that concessions typically have not been followed by reduced violence.


(funnily enough, all of this, both the organized eviction of Jews from the Arab world and the indoctrination of innocent children is supported/handwaved away/ignored by all the people who get their panties in a twist about Israel's "apartheid regime", but of course, we all know that such things are only bad when it's the evil Israelis doing them)


@Tribesman: yes, I know tunnels exist (imagine that, people finding a way around border control!). Yes, I know that aid organizations have trouble sending cement, and I know why (it needs to be monitored so that we know it's actually used to build civilian infrastructure and not more tunnels/HAMAS bunkers, hardened weapons caches, etc.).

He will tell you that blockade makes hamas and alike more popular and so on. As if the terrorism was a response to safety measures, and not the other way around. It's like saying that plane hijackings are caused by anger over securiy checkpoints at airports.

[MH]

For the record try to make a research about Arab treatment of Palestinian refugees and the ideology behind it.

[Tribesman]

the ones who themselves their own de facto nationality and took to calling themselves "Palestinians" in the 1970's
Not that old chestnut, did you get it from Pipes?
Really Keeper read up on the mandate.

yes, I know tunnels exist (imagine that, people finding a way around border control!). Yes, I know that aid organizations have trouble sending cement, and I know why (it needs to be monitored so that we know it's actually used to build civilian infrastructure and not more tunnels/HAMAS bunkers, hardened weapons caches, etc.).

So while the red cross can't get theirs for essential repairs HAMAS is selling its surplus at inflated prices on the street and has enough left over from their bunker building to indulge in luxury property developments.

For the record try to make a research about Arab treatment of Palestinian refugees and the ideology behind it.
Yes MH , its a startling revelation that the neighbouring regimes are not nice and exploit the situation for their own ends.

[Skybird]

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/three_observations_about_the_israeli_palestinian_i ssue


(...)
1) This is not a very interesting conflict.
The most basic fact about the low-intensity conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, it seems to me, is that it is overreported. One can easily point to the reasons why should be so—the Jews-are-news-factor; then, Israel is a reporter’s paradize where everybody from top officials down is extremely talkative—AND you can be back from the battlefield at your hotel bar in time for cocktails.

But overreported it undoubtedly is. Neither can the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict be called extremely bloody—just compare the Gaza campaign of 2008, with perhaps 740 civilians killed by the highest estimate, and the Sri Lankan Army Northern Offensive of the same year, with 7000 civilians killed by the lowest estimate.

Nor is it likely that this unimportant brawl in some dusty corner of this globe will lead to nuclear war anytime soon. Whereas nobody knows what the Korean roulette that Baby Kim is playing will eventually lead to; and remember, there still is the Cashmere crisis between India and Pakistan – totally unresolved—and the Pakistanis are driving nuclear warheads around their country in unarmoured vans.

So I stand by my word: this is essentially a boring conflict. Actually, one of the best things that could happen to both Israelis and Palestinians would be if the world lost interest. If TV cameras went dark. If both sides were left to their own devices for a year or so.

2) There is no easy resolution to this conflict.
If there were some way the Israelis could go: one, two three, and then the Palestinians went: a, b, c – or vice versa: first the Palestinians go a,b,c and then the Israelis implement one, two and three – then this conflict would have been resolved a long time ago. So all those of you who come from the outside carrying heavy bags full of good advice: hold your breaths for a second. It is not easy. And please, why should it be? Why should it be easier then, say, the ethnic strife between Romanians and Hungarians after World War I? Or the conflict in South Tyrol which lasted for generations? Or the Kurdish issue which has been burning at least since the Kurds were promised a state in the Treaty of Sevres (1920), a promise which was broken in the Treaty of Lausanne three years later?

This conflict will not be resolved in a day or a year. Maybe it will still be around a century from now. Maybe it will be around forever. „Real problems do not have a solution; they have a history“ (Nicolas Gomez Davila). Patience, please! And, my dear European friends, both sides in this conflict don’t appreciate it one bit when you wag accusing fingers in their faces like some Victorian governess.

3) Peace, if it ever comes, will not come through reconciliation.
Here I can only quote Amos Oz, a wonderful writer (and a real mensh) with whom I do not always agree. But he is absolutely on the money when he insists, „Make peace not love“. And when he says that peace is made between enemies and must in the case of Israelis and Palestininans result in partition. I also happen to agree with Amos when he warns of sentimentality.

For this reason I view all projects where Arabs and Jews are united, be it in kindergartens or symphony orchestras, with weary and cynical eyes. OK, you can do that kind of thing if you have no more pressing issues. But this is not the long and windy road which might eventually lead to peace or even a extended armistice.

Let me not mince words here: it is abso-****ing-lutely unimportant whether Israelis and Palestinians view each other with empathy. Whether they develop an understanding or whether they enjoy each other’s cooking. They don’t have to like the other side, not particularly, and they don’t have to learn to live with each other. All this is sentimental crap. This conflict does not belong to the kind where a slightly dysfunctional couple has to overcome certain marital didfficulties. This whole thing is about DIVORCE: How can the competing parties best be seperated? Who will get access to what and when? In short, how can Palestinians and Israelis best avoid each other? And what will happen to the party that is found in breach of the contract?

I am not saying this is how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be resolved. Perhaps (see above) it will never be. I’m only saying: should there be peace it will not come through Israeli and Palestinian teenagers fiddling happily side by side while Daniel Barenboim stands at the helm with his baton.
(...)

[MH]

Nice post.
I agree on all this media issue or on the "helping" souls who for most of the time cause damage-see some prominent politicians and others notorious spokesmen for the cause.
Yes , it is all about divorce :yep: