Kamikaze: Brave or Insane

[Cybermat47]

Personally, I feel that they were brave men, but still used by their government. :nope:

[Red October1984]

There's not an option for "Completely Stupid and Out Of Their Minds"

They are wasting a perfectly good fighting man and a perfectly good plane when a bomb or a rocket could be sent in their place.

I think Kamikaze Attacks are only to be used as a complete, last ditch, nothing-else-is-possible, last resort type of thing.

You could call them brave if you wanted to...but I think it comes down to the Asian "Honor" thing. Boys liked the idea of being a hero for their country and I don't blame them. I just think the way they did it was not good at all.

Same with the "Banzai Charges".....It's not a whole lot different. Just Kamikaze Soldiers. I think it shouldn't be a common combat practice. It's just a big waste.

[Cybermat47]

^^^

That's a very good point you make :yep:

[d@rk51d3]

And yet, put the same poll for the ANZAC's at Gallipoli, or even the stand of the brave souls at the Alamo and perhaps get a completely different veiwpoint.

:hmm2:

[Tribesman]

Brave or insane?:hmm2:
Just gullible.

[captgeo]

I agree with Red October in most ways, but Russians used to ram bombers with fighter's, T34 tanks were used the same way against Tigers,Panthers, and the list goes on.......it was used as a great terror tool against the Americans, they expended great resources to combat these tactic's....

so I voted the 3rd choice,

[Takeda Shingen]

And yet, put the same poll for the ANZAC's at Gallipoli, or even the stand of the brave souls at the Alamo and perhaps get a completely different veiwpoint.

:hmm2:

I was going to post a statement along those lines last evening, but chickened out. You are a better man than I, and you are absolutely right in this matter.

[Bilge_Rat]

As I understand it, most Kamikazes were not even volunteers. They were assigned to Kamikaze units and felt they had no choice but to obey.

It was an extreme example, but there were many services where the crews knew their chances of survival was slim to none, like U-Boats in 43-45, heavy bomber crews over Europe, any front line infantry unit, etc.

[TLAM Strike]

As I understand it, most Kamikazes were not even volunteers. Well that contradicts just about everything I've read about them.

The Kamikazes tended to be university students and student pilots (they don't let you fly if you are stupid after all) who volunteered for the mission. The question of whether or not they were brave or insane misses the point entirely, the prevailing Japanese culture of the time focused on worship of a god like emperor and service to the country. This culture fostered a belief in self sacrifice permeated not just the military but civilian society as well.

[Jimbuna]

Well that contradicts just about everything I've read about them.

The Kamikazes tended to be university students and student pilots (they don't let you fly if you are stupid after all) who volunteered for the mission. The question of whether or not they were brave or insane misses the point entirely, the prevailing Japanese culture of the time focused on worship of a god like emperor and service to the country. This culture fostered a belief in self sacrifice permeated not just the military but civilian society as well.

Pretty much how I see it but they were also the last ditch measure of a nation that realised they were going to lose yet culture wise were unable to accept or come to terms with the fact.

[Cybermat47]

Pretty much how I see it but they were also the last ditch measure of a nation that realised they were going to lose yet culture wise were unable to accept or come to terms with the fact.

Very true :yep:

[Platapus]

As I understand it, most Kamikazes were not even volunteers. They were assigned to Kamikaze units and felt they had no choice but to obey.



I would like to see some citations supporting your assertions. The reading I have conducted indicate otherwise.

Was there at least one Kamikaze who was coerced? probably. Were most of them coerced? Probably they coerced themselves.

There are reports of volunteers using family influence to get into the Kamikaze units sooner. It is probably hard for occidentals to understand the mindset of going into battle, not risking death, but having death a certainty. The idea that by sacrifacing one life (yours) you could deliver an in-proportional amount of damage to the enemy. Not part of the occidental culture, but part of the oriental (Japanese) culture.

Hence the occidental viewpoints that they were

1. Insane
2. Drugged
3. Forced
4. Stupid

It is hard to consider being so loyal to your government/society that you are willing not to only risk, but to sacrifice yourself in battle.

That type of dedication is awe-inspiring even if I find the act abhorrent.

But then we make the same judgements against suicide bombers these days.

[Kapt Z]

To quote(as memory serves) the movie PATTON-

"No one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his."

[BossMark]

Not sure what to think about this but I'll be honest I would have loved to fight for my country but to fly into a battleship or carrier is something that I wouldn't want do........................................

[sharkbit]

I'm no expert on the subject, but my two cents worth....

I think one thing left out in this discussion is the cultural differences and mentality between East and West during that time. I think we tend to look at this subject through the lenses of our Western Culture.

The Emperor was considered a god at that time. To die for him was a great honor. To people in the West, that concept is too foreign to us. I myself can't fathom why someone would do what the Kamikazes did, but I'm a Westerner also. I wasn't brought up in that time and culture. If you were in that culture, you probably wouldn't think twice about it because you didn't know any better.

Throw in the Code of Bushido that was so prevalent in the Japanese military at that time and it is no wonder there were so few Japanese prisoners taken. The suicides when the battle was lost on so many islands in the Pacific and the Banzai charges aren't so suprising.

I worked with an ex-Marine that was stationed on Okinawa for a time in the '80's. I remember him saying how different the culture is and how difficult it was to get used to it. He said many people couldn't get used to it. Maybe other people on this forum could share any experiences they might have had if they were stationed in Japan or something.

One of the best books I've read on the battle for Iwo Jima was "So Sad to Fall in Battle" by Kumiko Kakehashi. Based on letters from the garrison commander on Iwo, General Kuribayashi, to his wife. It puts a very human face on the "enemy".(Clint Eastwood based his movie "Letters From Iwo Jima" on the book.) It's been a while since I read it but one thing I remember was that he went to Iwo knowing he was going to die. There was no regrets or wishing otherwise.

So, were the Kamikazes brave, crazy, or stupid? I think that is pretty difficult to answer based on cultural differences.

[Dammit_Carl!]

I think I posted in the "what are you reading," thread about a book that has relevance to this question:

Blossoms in the Wind: Human Legacies of the Kamikaze by M.G. Shefthall.

Interesting in that it breaks the kamikaze experience down from dry, simple numbers to those who actually survived the program and ended the war alive; both male and female.

My take: those that volunteered, and later were "voluntold (to use a nifty phrase I picked up in the Army) carried through their missions for much the same reason all soldiers fight; they didn't want to let their buddies down and they didn't want to appear as cowards. Couple this with the version of Bushido they were fed, the fact that this seemed the only effective weapon at this late stage of the war and a high command that seemed only willing to continue the fight - at least until they could "surrender with honor," but the U.S. wasn't having any of that and the Japanese really, really wanted to have some sort of surrender in place before the Soviets turned their attention East - and it is no wonder that things progressed like they did.

So to answer your question. Were they brave? Yes. Certainly. To willingly throw yourself into mortal danger for the sake of your comrades and country is, in my mind, the epitome of bravery and a shouldering of the gravest sort of job one could ever imagine.

Were they insane? No, but in Western eyes, the level of dedication to duty that was exhibited could have been considered insane as the all-or-nothing type of warfare was a sort of rarity (at least on a "national," level).

They were boys and young men who did what they felt like was their duty to their friends, family and country in order for their nation as a whole to survive.

The fault is that they were ordered to do such a thing.

As always, IMHO, YMMV and all of that.

p.s. There is a bit about "Doll Brides," in that book that breaks my heart - parents would purchase a doll to be their boy's "bride," as there was no foreseeable way that their child would ever marry or have kids seeing as he was preparing to either fly a plane into a ship, pilot a specially built torpedo
into a ship, or man the helm of some other machine built for immolation. They might include a letter saying how proud they were of them and how they hoped that the doll could provide some sort of comfort in what time they had left. Most of these boys had never even kissed a girl and they were being ordered to die. Sorry, but that just gets to me....


p.p.s. I'm no Japanese apologist either, so lets just head that off right now.

[geetrue]

They were losing the war ... end of story.

They became an option for the generals to send pilots
that never came back ...

they were glorified to justify the pilots that followed them to their deaths.

most of the people that died from the
kamikaze attacks never even knew what hit them.

leaving fear for those left alive as a weapon

the same weapon todays suicide bombers carry = fear

fear of an Iranian suicide submarine ranks high on my list :o

[Marcello]

There's not an option for "Completely Stupid and Out Of Their Minds"

They are wasting a perfectly good fighting man and a perfectly good plane when a bomb or a rocket could be sent in their place.


By late war a D3A or an early Zero flown by poorly trained pilots were not going to accomplish much but getting torn to pieces anyway. By crashing themselves into the target hit probabilities were substantially incresed, as the aiming problem was somewhat simplified.
While some better planes models were available industrial resources to turn them out in numbers were stretched to the limit. Fuel to operate them or train pilots properly was essentially unavailable.
As for being volounteers, many were. But to make up numbers quite a lot were volounteered too...


We were summoned to listen to a special speech from the commanding officer. He explained to us that the army was to set up its own tokkotai, and that it was starting to train pilots for the purpose at Hokota Air Base, on the Pacific coast [of Japan]. Pilots from our base, he said, were being invited to volunteer for the tokko squadrons. Then he went into one of the hangars, and we were called in one by one to see him. He gave us each two pieces of paper, and we were asked to write our name on one of them to indicate our feelings about joining the tokkotai. One piece of paper said 'eager.' The other one said 'very eager.' 'In that case,' I said to the commander, 'I hope that you will not mind if I only write myself down as being "eager."'



Lieutenant Mutsuo Saito


Note also that while the japanese were big on suicide planes attacks even the germans were sliding in that direction, while the Sonderkommando Elbe was not 100% kamikaze action it was the next best thing.

[Yoshiki]

I'm no expert on the subject, but my two cents worth....

I think one thing left out in this discussion is the cultural differences and mentality between East and West during that time. I think we tend to look at this subject through the lenses of our Western Culture.

The Emperor was considered a god at that time. To die for him was a great honor. To people in the West, that concept is too foreign to us. I myself can't fathom why someone would do what the Kamikazes did, but I'm a Westerner also. I wasn't brought up in that time and culture. If you were in that culture, you probably wouldn't think twice about it because you didn't know any better.

Throw in the Code of Bushido that was so prevalent in the Japanese military at that time and it is no wonder there were so few Japanese prisoners taken. The suicides when the battle was lost on so many islands in the Pacific and the Banzai charges aren't so suprising. [...]
It's been a while since I read it but one thing I remember was that he went to Iwo knowing he was going to die. There was no regrets or wishing otherwise.



I agree with Capt. Sharkbit. Without knowing some important things about
Japanese culture - it's impossible to judge. If you spend some time
in Japan (but not just Tokyo...) you might get an idea about the
Japanese way of thinking and the imperatives of the cultural background -
although this has changed a lot - and the younger generations are
no longer rooted so deeply in the past.

To me - the Kamikazes were extremely brave men who died with
honor.

So where the German U-Boat crews. Of 40,000 men only 10,000
ever came back. (that's pretty close to Kamikaze...)

I do not mean to belittle the Allies courage, honour and suffering -
on the contrary.

/Yoshi

[Bilge_Rat]

Hi, sort of missed that the Kamikaze debate was continuing.

On whether they were volonteers, I am pretty sure I had read that in Saburo Sakai's book "Samurai" about his wartime experiences.

It is also discussed here a bit:



Saburo Sakai, Imperial Navy ace, 64 confirmed kills:
"Kamikaze is a surprise attack, according to our ancient war tactics. Surprise attacks will be successful the first time, maybe two or three times. But what fool would continue the same attacks for ten months? Emperor Hirohito must have realized it. He should have said 'Stop.'

"As for kamikaze attacks, those who ordered and encouraged them, those in commanding positions, lied. Every pilot volunteered for a kamikaze unit? 'I go! I go! I go!' -- did everyone say that? That's a lie!

"Even now, many faces of my students come up when I close my eyes. So many students are gone. Why did headquarters continue such silly attacks for ten months! Fools! Genda, [Minoru Genda, the Navy strategist] who went to America -- all those men lied that all men volunteered for kamikaze units. They lied.

"That's why Americans think we are strange. Where are the people who will volunteer to die? No one wants to die. But if a pilot was ordered, we were all military men. We would go. I went, too.* The Japanese Army lost 2,500 men. The Japanese Navy lost 2,500 men. They all died, while being disappointed."
*Sakai was once assigned to a kamikaze mission, but he and his flight encountered severe weather and were forced to abort and turn back for Japan.






http://www.kyokipress.com/wings/kamikaze.html

From what I understand and I won't say I am an expert on the subject, under japanese culture at the time, men just did what was expected of them, if it was expected that they would die, they would, so it was not a question of volonteering as such.