Time to learn manual shooting!!

[fastfed]

So.. I made the same post in SH4 thread.. Basically been playing this game since the original SH series started, always loved them all (not so much SH5) and I'm embarrassed to say, I never done manual targeting..

After about 4 pages of great people helping me, I can say I have manual shooting down pretty good for Fleet boats.. I'm far from perfect but I'm confident and successful enough to sink some ships.

But, SH3, GWX has my heart in sub games and U-boats specifically.

First off, what are the main differences between the TDC's ?? From my understanding the Americans TDC was much better and more modern.. The tracking / keeper part that will adjust the settings for me is something the germans didn't have right?

Is there any guides that you noobs at one time used and you now can manual target?

just looking for some help anywhere.. Many of the past threads have dead links and such..

In anycase, thanks guys!

[Gustav Schiebert]

Hi fastfed!

If you're looking to do manual shooting I can highly recommend OLC Gold (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147667). Very good for 100% realism targeting, historically accurate - and it comes with an extensive 20 min video tutorial.

Taught me everything I know!

As for TDCs, the US Navy considered its own to be the best and it probably was - particularly their experiments with radar/radio linked to the TDC. The German TDC was probably a close second, rather more simple but very effective. Royal Navy TDCs were unfortunately very primitive, apart from the Enigma and cipher codebooks, the TDC was the most interesting find when U-570 was captured.

Hope this helps, and good hunting!

[Hitman]

The americans were a lot more sophisticated when building their firing solutions and the TDC reflects that. On a US sub you would have a whole attack and tracking party helping the commander, while on the uboats the commander did everything almost alone by himself.

For the german TDC you need to start with an input of speed and AOB, then lock the TDC. As long as you don't change course, the AOB updates when you move the scope because the TDC is linked to the optical aiming device (TDC or UZO), unlike what happened in US boats. Range is something you would set only when you are close and about to shoot, and only need to be precise if you are going for an angled shot. Any shot with a torpedo GA of less than 15º will probably not even need a moderately accurate range setting.

The german commanders did almost everything by naked eye estimation, speed, range and AOB. There were however some tools to help them, specially when the more novice ones were pushed into service later in the war.

Basically, this is how you determine each parameter:

AOB: You either:

a) Estimate it visually
b) Compute it from the known target course, if you ascertained it before
c) Measure it with the periscope tool that can be found in some mods, like OLC, manos GUI, etc

Speed: You either:

a) Estimate it visually (Bow wake and ship type help)
b) Compute it from the observations of range and bearing you used to plot the enemy course
c) Measure it with the fixed line method. You clock how much the target takes to cross the central line in your crosshair and estimating (or knowing) the target length you calculate it with simple maths

Range: You either:

a) Estimate it visually
b) Measure it with the graded scale in the scope or stadimeter, if available

To learn why and when the range matters most, you can read this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121744

The main difference is that here you will only rarely plot the enemy course. You will want to do that when you are doing a long pursuit of a convoy, but for any opportunity target you will guesstimate most parameters and simply go at right angles for a minimal gyro angle shot. Get close enough and you will hardly miss - that's actually what real commanders did, as they were well aware that guesstimating was not a perfect science (Reinhard Hardegen and the watch crew were once almost blow away from the bridge by the shock wave from their own torpedo on a target ship hardly 300 metres away!).

In any case, I think there are several tutorial videos around in Youtube.

Happy hunting :salute:

[Gustav Schiebert]

Hitman (at the risk of kidnapping the thread), I always thought that from a trigonometric point of view the range was irrelevant. I've read and understood your parallax post but I can't reconcile that with my current understanding. Perhaps you could tell me where I'm going wrong?

Stand by for artwork of the century:
https://9a5415ac-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/palladianguardfileshack/Shot.png?attachauth=ANoY7coXb3AZgijc1YaK1tnoi0snSl Dqb4JjJLiMEKE3CZ7IG6TJrwSTw7cSQkCB8B5VpZ7CVvOkP4dN VcokNuuulSS8IXg5CpeNKwttljFTUvNiyDHdTpWjhprB8tb-pPU_C_wLmKkipNhle-z78_4x1CJgTpkLDuqNo8KtwuQLM5owdk5WiKK_T_ppOoegVBmm qjhOMNMNFo_0ufr16eE8L2lDX8jKyg%3D%3D&attredirects=0

I thought that, given the target speed and course remain constant the range is irrelevant? If you imagine the target ship in the diagram 'sliding' closer or further away (ie, if you change the range), the angles of the triangle all stay the same. Because of the sine law the ratios and angles all remain constant.

To put it into words, imagine that triangle was equilateral for argument's sake. If you move the target ship 1m further away, the torpedo has to travel 1m further and the ship has to travel 1m further - it will still hit, regardless of the range.

Because it's all to do with the internal angles of the triangle, whatever range you put in is irrelevant. All that matters is the AOB and the angle of the target. Since the latter is known (you read it off the periscope), the only two things that matter are the AOB and the speed. Armed with this knowledge, when I'm in a tight spot on SH3 I sometimes just quickly click the AOB and speed and 'snap shoot' without entering the range - and still hit (most of the time).

I know I'm looking at this mathematically rather than operationally. In real life they would of course input the range to check the target was in range at all, and secondly to calculate the angle of spread for multiple shots.

If you could point out where I'm going wrong I'd be very grateful :p

[Hitman]

The problem is that you are looking at it as a perfect triangle -in which case you would be right. Unfortunately, it isn't a perfect triangle because the torpedo has to make a curved turn once it leaves the Uboat, instead of a sharp angle turn -which would be needed to have it be a perfect triangle. So you have two sides of the triangle with sharp angles, but one with an irregular curved corner. Does that make the concept clearer? :)

[Gustav Schiebert]

The problem is ......... Does that make the concept clearer? :)

Thanks! Yes it does. This just goes to show why one should always be wary of reducing complicated real life situations to simple mathematical allegories! Thankyou for the explanation.

[tsotha]

Unfortunately, it isn't a perfect triangle because the torpedo has to make a curved turn once it leaves the Uboat, instead of a sharp angle turn -which would be needed to have it be a perfect triangle.

Doesn't that still imply range doesn't matter on a zero gyro angle shot?

[TorpX]

Doesn't that still imply range doesn't matter on a zero gyro angle shot?
Yes and No. If you are only considering the simplified problem with a triangle and constant speed vectors of the target and torpedo. BUT, in RL, torpedos do not accelerate instantly, nor do they always start at the set depth. Most likely, the torpedo will sink some, accelerate and climb to it's set depth (if all goes well), and then proceed at a constant speed to the target.

[tsotha]

Yes and No. If you are only considering the simplified problem with a triangle and constant speed vectors of the target and torpedo. BUT, in RL, torpedos do not accelerate instantly, nor do they always start at the set depth. Most likely, the torpedo will sink some, accelerate and climb to it's set depth (if all goes well), and then proceed at a constant speed to the target.


That makes sense. But did the TDCs of the era take all that into account?

[Hitman]

If you are only considering the simplified problem with a triangle and constant speed vectors of the target and torpedo.

Even then there will be a small difference due to the periscope or uzo being 35 metres behind the torpedo. But IIRC the TDC did take that into account.

But did the TDCs of the era take all that into account?

I think so, but based on average preprogrammed value. There were no input settings for that.

In general, commanders knew that and thus simply minimized the error getting close and trying to hit the broadside, as a minor deviation on a 150 metres long hull at 90º can still mean a hit.

[TorpX]

That makes sense. But did the TDCs of the era take all that into account?
I know the US TDC's did, and assume the KM's did as well, but as Hitman suggested, they were imperfect machines. O'Kane mentions in one of his books that they checked and calibrated the TDC between patrols and it would calculate the correct angle to 1/4 degree. He considered that sufficient, because the torpedoes were said to be able to hold course to within 1/2 degree.

[tsotha]

I know the US TDC's did, and assume the KM's did as well, but as Hitman suggested, they were imperfect machines. O'Kane mentions in one of his books that they checked and calibrated the TDC between patrols and it would calculate the correct angle to 1/4 degree. He considered that sufficient, because the torpedoes were said to be able to hold course to within 1/2 degree.


Hmmm. 1/2 degree is about 17 meters at 2km. Seems effective enough given the length of the targets.

[TorpX]

Yes, in ordinary circumstances that would be more than enough. If a fast moving target was closing at a 10 or 15 degree track, it could be tricky, though.