It's time I finally learn (Manual shooting)

[fastfed]

I've been playing since the beginning of Silent Hunter series, I've loved them all (Minus 5, as of now)

But one thing I never really wanted to learn out of laziness :) Manual solution for shooting, I've always dealt with the computer doing it for me. My excuse was, in real life I'm sure the captain had his officers do all of that for him, lol.

So.. I figure I'd learn it with a good working game with great mods..

Here is my mods for now.

1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1



I'm almost 100% realistic in my settings except map contacts and ext. views.

I'm leaving Pearl in a Gato April 16th 1942.

All of that said, is there any guides for idiots ? What do I need to learn? Is there an easy step by step for this?

THANKS!

edit** any thing I should add in terms of mods to make things easier?

[Simmy]

Good luck to you.:yeah:

I have tried, but with the different mods there seems to be no one good solution. I would like to refine the actual TDC method but no one seems to agree as to what works best. Then there are the methods that don't involve the TDC at all.
I was given two different files that were suppose to make the TDC work so as to make the left dial turnable for setting the AoB. But of course that didn't work. I have never seen anything as screwed up as the manual targeting system of this game. If anyone has a method, that I haven't already tried I would take a shot at that.:/\\!!

[fastfed]

Wait..what??

Are you saying most people don't use ,manual targeting???

I thought I was the minority using auto targeting and now you're saying its broken ??

[jldjs]

Wait..what??

Are you saying most people don't use ,manual targeting???

I thought I was the minority using auto targeting and now you're saying its broken ??

Unlike your approach, I started playing and abandoned computer shooting after a few weeks. No challenge, and too me that's what the allure of this game is. Manual targeting is nothing to be afraid about. Start with the training mission for torpedo shooting and just keep running it till you get that "Ah Hah" moment. If you've been playing as much as you say you should get there quickly. You'll soon figure out that the keys to manual solutions are target speed, target course from which you can calculate target AoB, and distance. These are the three inputs to the TDC. Practice and you enjoyment with this game will increase significantly. Good luck.

[Shkval]

Off course it works... you just need to know what are you doing... for the beginning I would add OTC mod to your list of modes... then I would learn the four bearing method... static and moving one... (later you will discover that moving one is better suited to fleet boats, than to U-boats, because of the keel mounted hydrophones). You will learn to use WO and his reports (bearing+distance= mark on the map, mark+mark= target's course/speed). You will also learn to use hydrophone and sonar in bad weather (later radar) for "blind shooting" ... measuring speed...i.e. practice, practice, and MORE practice... there are lots of tutorials on this subject on youtube and on this forum... just be persistent... for example my own personal record was hydrophone "blind" shot at 7.5 km with 3 torpedoes salvo, each one was a hit, bow, middle and stern in SH3 GWX and a few more mods. It's not easy, but when you get a grasp of procedures you will feel all the power of the submarine deadly stealth...

[fireftr18]

Wait..what??

Are you saying most people don't use ,manual targeting???

I thought I was the minority using auto targeting and now you're saying its broken ??

I think most do use manual targeting, most of those that are more vocal anyway. :ahoy: I still use auto targeting. I did learn manual and got pretty decent at it, but just didn't like it. :-? I encourage you to go ahead and try it. You may like it. :woot:

[fastfed]

I found this tutorial , seems to be pretty popular

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1647


Is that a good one? I'm going to print it out and put it in a little booklet

I kind of get it.. looks like I'm entering the data and the tdc computer kind of figures it out..



I remember in many books that the Americans TDC was better than the Germans at the time?

[Carrollsue]

I have being playing this game (SH up to 4) for a long time now and just started to use manual, first got the OTC and then though reading, trying it out:/\\!!, MORE reading and trying it out:wah:, asking questions and getting great responds back:salute::up:….I can now say that that I’m somewhere between poor-good range ( we call it midlen), but love it! Have fun!:yeah:

[Sniper297]

Manual targeting for me is too weird for words, and I don't know if the real thing was like that - the stadimeter you place the upper image with the waterline touching the tops of the masts of the lower image?! All the rangefinders I ever used in real life had a side by side or over and under split image where you superimposed the two images so you only saw a single image and then read out the range.

That said, I've read here that the ranges are (1) wrong in the stock game, and (2) impossible to get at a distance depending on screen resolution since the masts aren't wide enough for a single pixel so the tops aren't visible. I would try one of the optical correction mods for that.

Best method, start by playing with manual targeting off and map updates on - but instead of loafing along with your mind in neutral while the computer does all the work, take notes and screenshots. What speed does this type of ship/convoy normally run at? When the range is 3000 yards how much of the periscope view does a medium split freighter fill in high power? How many hashmarks from the waterline to the top of the stack for a large tanker at 1000 yards in low power? Get a sight picture of what various ships look like at different AOB angles, take screenshots of perfect firing solutions so when you do start using manual the sight picture will nag at you when something is way off.

When you have all that down pat, turn manual targeting on but leave map contact updates on - do your stadimeter and AOB settings, then go to the map and use the tools to check how close you are to the correct numbers. Once you get to the point where the periscope observations and TDC inputs agree (within a reasonable value) with the measurements on the map, THEN try it without map contact updates.

[Armistead]

Learn all the manual targeting methods and what method works best in what situation. Honestly, auto targeting is rather limiting. Sometimes you need to shoot in storms or long range using radar only. One thing I hate about auto is often your targeting needs to be based on where you think the ship will be. Often convoys go into small helming patterns and you'll plan your shot for your torps to hit on an upcoming zig, not the current zig auto targeting would lock in.

[Carrollsue]

Manual targeting for me is too weird for words, and I don't know if the real thing was like that - the stadimeter you place the upper image with the waterline touching the tops of the masts of the lower image?! All the rangefinders I ever used in real life had a side by side or over and under split image where you superimposed the two images so you only saw a single image and then read out the range.

That said, I've read here that the ranges are (1) wrong in the stock game, and (2) impossible to get at a distance depending on screen resolution since the masts aren't wide enough for a single pixel so the tops aren't visible. I would try one of the optical correction mods for that.

Best method, start by playing with manual targeting off and map updates on - but instead of loafing along with your mind in neutral while the computer does all the work, take notes and screenshots. What speed does this type of ship/convoy normally run at? When the range is 3000 yards how much of the periscope view does a medium split freighter fill in high power? How many hashmarks from the waterline to the top of the stack for a large tanker at 1000 yards in low power? Get a sight picture of what various ships look like at different AOB angles, take screenshots of perfect firing solutions so when you do start using manual the sight picture will nag at you when something is way off.

When you have all that down pat, turn manual targeting on but leave map contact updates on - do your stadimeter and AOB settings, then go to the map and use the tools to check how close you are to the correct numbers. Once you get to the point where the periscope observations and TDC inputs agree (within a reasonable value) with the measurements on the map, THEN try it without map contact updates.


:D Hey, believe me, I’m a old tanker and the M60A1 back, use the stadimeter for ranging and it works, but you superimposed the images.:up: Had to learn to do it in a couple of seconds where as you had only 5-7 to get a round down- range

[fastfed]

So here is where I'm at..

I am using the three minute trick to figure out speed.. Have a tanker coming to me now (paused) and put it in the speed and distance, using stadimeter for distance and clicking the keep track thing.

Now the biggest PITA is the target angle on bow thing..

Please someone tell me there is a way to figure this out, lol I feel like SUCH an idiot!!

[fastfed]

ok.. maybe one of those "ah ha moments" ?? Doubtful though.

After getting the distance and speed down all I needed to figure out was the bearing of the ship? I'm sure what I did was wrong, but I set my sonar guy to follow the closest ship, he kept reading out his bearing and all I did was turn the dial to what the sonar guy said the ships bearing was.

Direct hit from a distance of 1100 yards.

I dunno, I feel it was done by the seat of my pants and I got lucky.. I've gone through this over the years, GWX, SH4 and SH5.. I always give up at this point, lol I'm going to stick with it now.


EDIT!!

ok I now was able to sick two merchants..

I have map contacts on, so that is a huge help, I can easily get the distance and speed.. The distance I can get by a number of ways, I use the ruler :) I use the sonar to ping and then the stadimeter.

as for the speed the only way I do it as of now is timing 3 minutes and marking..

Using the OTC realistic scopes mod there is something I can do to judge the speed using the TDC, but everytime I click it my guys say I have to wait 5 seconds or something.

I'd like to figure that out as well, but for now my biggest problem is the angle BS, lol

I keep adjusting until the attack map looks almost right, its obviously cheating as I want to go full realistic eventually and this method is not teaching me anything!

[magic452]

AoB is what the captain on the target would see if he was looking at your boat. It's the angle off his bow (course) not yours.

There are several ways to get AoB.

If you've got the target course plotted than draw a line from your boat to the target and using the compass tool measure the angle between that line and the target course, that angle will be the AoB. Have the PK on when you enter this value.

Second you can just eyeball the AoB input dial and match what it looks like comp[aired to the periscope view, keep adjusting as necessary. The white X is the computed impact point so it should stay on the target ship. Takes time to do this and lots of practice.

This link has the method I use
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1891148&postcount=16

Always input the data in this order.
Turn on the PK and set speed and send to TDC
Next input AoB
Last range/bearing. Always last.
Check your firing solution on the attack map.

Magic

Edit, you posted as I was typing oh so slowly. I have two stupid fingers.

The problem with using the click for speed thing is you need two very good steadimeter readings about a minute or so for it to work, I never had much luck with it.:/\\!!

It's not cheating you gotta learn some how. :D

[Sniper297]

"Hey, believe me, I’m a old tanker and the M60A1 back, use the stadimeter for ranging and it works, but you superimposed the images"

Yeah, that's the kind I'm used to, got two images make them one image and that's the range. My Dad had a 35mm camera with a split image side by side rangefinder which I'm pretty sure was WWII era or earlier, I was born in 1953 and remember him using that camera when I was a kid. This kind of thing;

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/197/71634283.jpg

Is just too weird for me, instead of superimposing the two images to one you're supposed to place the waterline of the top image on the mast tops of the bottom image and it's just not accurate enough even at close ranges. The real thing MIGHT have been like that, I have no idea.

[Maggoty]

It seems to me someone was trying to make a mini game by mixing the army's system of height in scope with stadimeters. Infantrymen have to calculate range by estimating their targets height, their targets height in the scope and doing some math with those two values. It looks like the waterline at the top of your target thing does nothing more in the game than to note the height of your target in the periscope. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually copied the army's math and the book/waterline are the two values.

[fastfed]

AoB is what the captain on the target would see if he was looking at your boat. It's the angle off his bow (course) not yours.

There are several ways to get AoB.

If you've got the target course plotted than draw a line from your boat to the target and using the compass tool measure the angle between that line and the target course, that angle will be the AoB. Have the PK on when you enter this value.

Second you can just eyeball the AoB input dial and match what it looks like comp[aired to the periscope view, keep adjusting as necessary. The white X is the computed impact point so it should stay on the target ship. Takes time to do this and lots of practice.

This link has the method I use
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1891148&postcount=16

Always input the data in this order.
Turn on the PK and set speed and send to TDC
Next input AoB
Last range/bearing. Always last.
Check your firing solution on the attack map.

Magic

Edit, you posted as I was typing oh so slowly. I have two stupid fingers.

The problem with using the click for speed thing is you need two very good steadimeter readings about a minute or so for it to work, I never had much luck with it.:/\\!!

It's not cheating you gotta learn some how. :D


ok... AOB is the course that the target is on ???

Again, it really sucks I have NO FREAKING IDEA about this stuff and I'm a stupid simulation nut.

As for that compass tool that gives me the bearing, I'm extremely confused on how it works right, every video I see on youtube, they never explain it more than just .. Draw a line into the target ship, then down to the middle of your sub.

Great! It gives me weird numbers, and it can be off by a large degree if I do it 3x in a row.

Do I have to multiply that number or something? Or divide it?

So confused :(

also what does PK mean?

[Shkval]

Try these one's http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154918&highlight=AOB+formula PK is position keeper...

[magic452]

PK = Position Keeper, the red button on the bottom of the left set of dials.
It will update the firing solution automatically based on the data you first input into the TDC. If the target has not changed speed or heading the white X will stay on the target and you can shoot at any time. The torpedo will hit where the X is. The problem with playing "so called" 100% realism is that you can't check the firing solution with out entering a new solution, that is why I use map updates on. You may take a pretty good solution and make it a bad one and you can't go back.

To measure AoB by drawing a line form your boat to the target you must pause the game because the target will be moving and each time you do this it will be different, that is why I don't use this method.

The compass will not give you bearing, it's used to get AoB, the angular difference between the target course and the line of sight to your boat.
You know the target speed and range/bearing what the AoB tells you, or rather tells the TDC is the angle that target is moving at so it can compute the target course retaliative to your boat. The Pk will keep this updated as things move.

Using the tool helper for the ruler will bring up a compass rose.
Once you have a target course line, three minute rule, extend that line way out there and you place the center of the rose on the course line ahead of the target and read the number where the line crosses the outside of the rose closest to the target. That number is the target course in degrees, that is the number you use for AoB, you turn the AoB input dial until the ship icon on the left dial is pointed at the number of degrees you read off the compass. Unless the target changes speed or heading that number (target course) will remain the same.

I'll put it another way say you have a target that has a heading of 270°, that's moving from right to left across your screen. Your heading north 0° and your about 1,000 yards below the projected course of the target.
When the target is 4,000 yards away someone standing on the bow of the target will look at your boat and he will be looking almost straight ahead a little to his left (Port AoB) As he gets closer and closer he will have to look more to the left side to see you until he is straight ahead of you, at that point he will be looking 90° from the center line of his ship or his course. That 90° is the AoB at that moment in time. For AoB you must think from the target's point of view not yours. Exactly where is that guy looking to see you. If the TDC knows that angle (AoB) it can compute the target course. When you plot you know the target course but the TDC doesn't. AoB is the way you tell the TDC how to compute the course.

Clear as mud isn't it. :know:

Manual targeting might sound difficult but once you see how things work it's not all that hard. It just takes practice and more practice.

Hope this helps.

Magic

[Carrollsue]

"Hey, believe me, I’m a old tanker and the M60A1 back, use the stadimeter for ranging and it works, but you superimposed the images"

Yeah, that's the kind I'm used to, got two images make them one image and that's the range. My Dad had a 35mm camera with a split image side by side rangefinder which I'm pretty sure was WWII era or earlier, I was born in 1953 and remember him using that camera when I was a kid. This kind of thing;

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/197/71634283.jpg

Is just too weird for me, instead of superimposing the two images to one you're supposed to place the waterline of the top image on the mast tops of the bottom image and it's just not accurate enough even at close ranges. The real thing MIGHT have been like that, I have no idea.

Don’t think it can be done that way on water. No, I’m not sure if that matter that much, if it’s that accurate (distance) really, AoB and speed are the important one for the lead, but O’baby will run until it’s out of gas or hits something.
Now that M1A2, hit the laser and I had you with mm!

[Carrollsue]

It seems to me someone was trying to make a mini game by mixing the army's system of height in scope with stadimeters. Infantrymen have to calculate range by estimating their targets height, their targets height in the scope and doing some math with those two values. It looks like the waterline at the top of your target thing does nothing more in the game than to note the height of your target in the periscope. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually copied the army's math and the book/waterline are the two values.



Will, kind of…. I have a tube with mirror and lens of a know length, so you can get two image’s and when you superimpose them on a calibrated system you find distance and you can find height doing that to, just different technique. Now with that , I'm not the a good math person, but if I know the height of something and using a machine that will give me the angle between that height and the straight line to the target that I’m looking at it( not sure if it cos or sin), I can find the length to it. using Trig

[Simmy]

The problem I was having was that there is NO white x.
I was learning with TMO2.5 and all that showed on the screen was a black
slash mark, which didn't make a lot of sense.
Maybe I should try using RFB or something besides TMO?:06:

[Armistead]

ok... AOB is the course that the target is on ???

Again, it really sucks I have NO FREAKING IDEA about this stuff and I'm a stupid simulation nut.

As for that compass tool that gives me the bearing, I'm extremely confused on how it works right, every video I see on youtube, they never explain it more than just .. Draw a line into the target ship, then down to the middle of your sub.

Great! It gives me weird numbers, and it can be off by a large degree if I do it 3x in a row.

Do I have to multiply that number or something? Or divide it?

So confused :(

also what does PK mean?

A perfect AOB is the targets course relative to your sub. You can mark the ships course and use the compass or if you have good stad measurements, when you ask for speed, you get course as well. Simply spin the AOB wheel to the course. Course in real life, they did the math or simply guessed.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice thread, I remember when I first tried manual targeting, totally changed the experience :yep:

[twm47099]

It seems to me someone was trying to make a mini game by mixing the army's system of height in scope with stadimeters. Infantrymen have to calculate range by estimating their targets height, their targets height in the scope and doing some math with those two values. It looks like the waterline at the top of your target thing does nothing more in the game than to note the height of your target in the periscope. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually copied the army's math and the book/waterline are the two values.

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done. There are a couple of WW2 periscopes in the Washington Navy Yard Navy Museum. There is a sliding plate at the eyepiece that moves up and down when you turn the range knob. One image moves. The double image (put base of one at top of the other) is not as easy to use as a camera range finder (although that could be due to degradation of old optics), but it was designed to work at much longer distances and without a long enough range finder baseline.

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

[CapnScurvy]

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done..........

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

Yep, that's how it was done. I too have read how the stadimeter could be moved both vertically and horizontally depending on your desire to calculate for either range or angle on bow. The vertical placement measured height, the horizontal placement measured length......both measurements were compared to what the "known" estimated measurements should be. A tool like the Range Omnimeter (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169857) was used to help in calculating the difference between the two (so was a quick mathematician on the firing party). The estimated range came from the height calculation, the AoB of the target came from the length measurement difference.

The stock game needs to be corrected for several things before a good manual firing solution can be gleaned. The mast heights need to be corrected; the Field of View needs to be corrected allowing the scopes Telemeter Divisions to be used for measurement. For instance, when the game was first released the jap CV Hiryu had a mast height of 20 meters (65.6 feet). After a lot of gnashing of teeth, the Developers changed some of the worst offenders (as memory serves me, it was with their 1.4 patch), however their new mast height for the Hiryu is still off the mark by about 6 meters. One of the things you'll run into is some mods don't pay a bit of attention to this type of thing. Take TMO 2.5 and check the Recognition Manual for the Hiryu. The mast height is back to the original figure of 20 meters. To read an accurate stadimeter measurement it should read about 37 meters (121.4 feet). The difference in the height will throw off a stadimeter reading by about half the range it should read.

It's too bad the game limit's us to only using the stadimeter for range finding with the vertical process. Believe me, if there were a way to make the stadimeter work as the real thing I'd of done it. But the stadimeter is "hard coded" in the game (much like the math formula it uses to determine the stadimeters reading), there's nothing we can do about its short comings.

One thing I know we could do is make the Recognition Manual list more than one height measurement. Allowing a player to choose which particular spot on the target you wish to use when matching the stadimeter water line to it. You'd have to have a better way of telling the TDC/Position Keeper what height to use when you do the stadimeter second image, but for a long time I've considered doing it. The first part of the issue is done with the correction of the Field of View to the measuring device (the scopes view) with Optical Targeting Correction. What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now. :hmm2:

[Simmy]

So no come back as to why there is no white x in TMO2.5?
Or did no one notice this?:06:

[twm47099]

...What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now. :hmm2:

I would love to be able to choose the top of the funnel where possible; the mast is just to skinny and with its growing and shrinking, it's often very tricky to get a good reading. But I guess it is one way to try to simulate the uncertainty that existed in RL (assuming the developers made a conscious decision.)

Tom

[CapnScurvy]

I would love to be able to choose the top of the funnel where possible; the mast is just to skinny and with its growing and shrinking, it's often very tricky to get a good reading. But I guess it is one way to try to simulate the uncertainty that existed in RL (assuming the developers made a conscious decision.)

Tom

The way they put the stadimeter together, they left themselves only the one location for figuring range. However, there are ways around using the mast top as the only placement. I've had many targets using the funnel, bridge top, carrier flight deck, with some of my mods. The only problem.... you have to pick just one spot for each ship. RFB uses my process when it has the merchants using the mast heights, the warships using the funnels, the CV's using the flight deck. But, I see the potential of setting a dial, telling the TDC what height to use, then using the stadimeter to mark the spot where the dimension your using is located. You could pick and choose the spot you want depending on the distance, or weather issue that may hamper you finding the mast top.

There is one problem though with using something other than the mast top. The lower you go within the scope view, with the water line mark, the larger the error is if your off a bit with the marking. How much is a bit? Just one pixel width could have the range found to be 100's of yards off!! The dev's put this greater error into the mix to simulate the fact that a target that's near the water line is expected to be farther away in distance than when you take a reading in the middle and towards the top of the scopes view. This gives the effect of creating greater errors with targets farther away, than ones near. Tricky weren't they?!

[fastfed]

Wow.. I reallly... REALLY REALLY suck at this :(

I'm about to go back to auto shooting.. I'm close, kinda close but I'm shooting from the hip and im missing.

I know its got to do with the AOB..

[Shkval]

Don't give up now...

[HertogJan]

When turning the dial on the right for AoB and pressing the send to TDC you'll see the top left dial has changed position.

Wat you basically do when entering the AoB in the TDC is entering the target's true course (which you can see on the top left dial).


Make sense?

[Maggoty]

Will, kind of…. I have a tube with mirror and lens of a know length, so you can get two image’s and when you superimpose them on a calibrated system you find distance and you can find height doing that to, just different technique. Now with that , I'm not the a good math person, but if I know the height of something and using a machine that will give me the angle between that height and the straight line to the target that I’m looking at it( not sure if it cos or sin), I can find the length to it. using Trig

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done. There are a couple of WW2 periscopes in the Washington Navy Yard Navy Museum. There is a sliding plate at the eyepiece that moves up and down when you turn the range knob. One image moves. The double image (put base of one at top of the other) is not as easy to use as a camera range finder (although that could be due to degradation of old optics), but it was designed to work at much longer distances and without a long enough range finder baseline.

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

Yep, that's how it was done. I too have read how the stadimeter could be moved both vertically and horizontally depending on your desire to calculate for either range or angle on bow. The vertical placement measured height, the horizontal placement measured length......both measurements were compared to what the "known" estimated measurements should be. A tool like the Range Omnimeter (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169857) was used to help in calculating the difference between the two (so was a quick mathematician on the firing party). The estimated range came from the height calculation, the AoB of the target came from the length measurement difference.

The stock game needs to be corrected for several things before a good manual firing solution can be gleaned. The mast heights need to be corrected; the Field of View needs to be corrected allowing the scopes Telemeter Divisions to be used for measurement. For instance, when the game was first released the jap CV Hiryu had a mast height of 20 meters (65.6 feet). After a lot of gnashing of teeth, the Developers changed some of the worst offenders (as memory serves me, it was with their 1.4 patch), however their new mast height for the Hiryu is still off the mark by about 6 meters. One of the things you'll run into is some mods don't pay a bit of attention to this type of thing. Take TMO 2.5 and check the Recognition Manual for the Hiryu. The mast height is back to the original figure of 20 meters. To read an accurate stadimeter measurement it should read about 37 meters (121.4 feet). The difference in the height will throw off a stadimeter reading by about half the range it should read.

It's too bad the game limit's us to only using the stadimeter for range finding with the vertical process. Believe me, if there were a way to make the stadimeter work as the real thing I'd of done it. But the stadimeter is "hard coded" in the game (much like the math formula it uses to determine the stadimeters reading), there's nothing we can do about its short comings.

One thing I know we could do is make the Recognition Manual list more than one height measurement. Allowing a player to choose which particular spot on the target you wish to use when matching the stadimeter water line to it. You'd have to have a better way of telling the TDC/Position Keeper what height to use when you do the stadimeter second image, but for a long time I've considered doing it. The first part of the issue is done with the correction of the Field of View to the measuring device (the scopes view) with Optical Targeting Correction. What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now. :hmm2:

Well shoot that's pretty cool, I figured the real life version used a split image I just didn't know how close the game was or was not to reality. Thanks for the info guys it's kind of cool learning this stuff. Scruvy I do hope you find a way to do the selector switch, those masts at more than a couple thousand yards are killer.

[CapnScurvy]

Wow.. I reallly... REALLY REALLY suck at this :(

I'm about to go back to auto shooting.. I'm close, kinda close but I'm shooting from the hip and im missing.

I know its got to do with the AOB..

Speed and AoB are both important. Get the speed wrong and the torp heads behind the target, or leads it too much. The AoB is the tricky part because it's left to your judgement to figure out what the angle is.

In real life a Captain could depend on his binocular vision (using two eye's, not just one) when on the bridge to get a good depth perception of what a target AoB was. After practice, any crew member became quite good at it. The game however doesn't allow for this. The bridge view in-game is still only as good as the flat, 2 dimensional screen it is shown on. There's no way of simulating depth perception with a monitor (I don't think even using 3D glasses and a 3D screen would do it justice). So we have monocular vision which is like you going to the window and covering one eye, it makes quite a difference in what you can perceive.

As in real life the periscope view is indeed monocular vision. That's why the boys over at research and development came up with a stadimeter that could measure both height and length of a target....the length to help with figuring AoB of a target. Regrettably the function wasn't put into the games stadimeter, nor was their correct field of view that allowed for measuring length or height with the tools available (like the Telemeter Divisions of the scope lens). So, your left to figure AoB pretty much on your own.

One big help is to plot your target on the Nav Map and use the protractor to figure the targets tract and AoB. It's simple, accurate, and it gives you a better understanding of what the firing party actually did when a target firing solution was made. No one piece of the pie was counted on to make the firing solution. It took several men (anywhere from 12 to 15) to make up the Torpedo Firing Party, each contributing their input in making each torpedo firing count.

In-game ...."you the man"! The duties of a dozen men are on your shoulders with manual targeting. Now that's what makes the game fun!!

[Carrollsue]

If you want to do the research go on the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks--Techniques, tactics, tutorials, videos (in this forum).


:up:There you will find 256 or something post go to the very first post and read the next 30 post or more and I think you will want to take a break, but you will know, it’s all there. Now those, well most of them, some are gone now, who did those post back to SH3 or so are the ones you are talking to now…Not me though, to dumb…:D:har:


Hope it helps:yeah:

[fastfed]

When turning the dial on the right for AoB and pressing the send to TDC you'll see the top left dial has changed position.

Wat you basically do when entering the AoB in the TDC is entering the target's true course (which you can see on the top left dial).


Make sense?

Yes!! I get it, but what I don't get is how to get range properly and speed.

I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time)

using the stadimeter thing.. I level the periscope with the horizon line of the ocean and start to line the ships bottom of the hull with the top of the ship.

I get that, but sometimes its hard to do.. Do I line up the flag poles? I mean its annoying.

Then speed thing.. if I wait another minute or so and check range again, it will give me my speed right.. But even then, it shows sometimes being wayyyyy off.

it seems I could do range and speed calculations and get different results each time.


Im going to do screen shots of my process and post them here.

give me a little and please critique me.. thanks

[magic452]

What I'd do if I were you would be to go to a single war patrol, sometime after you can get radar and use easy settings, and go out and find a ship. You have been playing long enough to know where they are. As soon as you find one save the game. You can than use this save to get some target practice. Keep it as simple as you can, your just learning, you can add more difficult situations later once you get a handle on what's happening.

Use the radar to get the speed and course using the three minute rule.
Radar sweeps are 20 seconds so wait till the contact jumps ahead and start the stopwatch than mark it's position. Wait three minutes and when it jumps again mark that position. Do this two or three times and than connect all the marks. This will give you good speed and target course. Use the link I gave you earlier to figure AoB. All you need now is range and bearing.

With radar you have plenty of time to do all this. You can wait for the target to get closer before you need range/bearing, at close range the steadimeter will work OK, check the attack map for accuracy of your firing solution and adjust as necessary Speed and AoB should be good so range is all that should be all you may need to adjust. You do not need a perfect firing solution till the target is within your comfortable range, that should be something like 800 to start out to 2000 yards as you improve your skills.

With radar you have time to try different set ups etc. Just keep replaying that save till you get it down pat than move onto something more changeling. Remember KISS, Keep It Simple Submariner. :D

Magic

[HertogJan]

Sound to me you're not giving the TDC the correct vessel ID if at all, so just to make sure. (no offense :oops:).

Before any input to the TDC you have to ID the target.
When manually identifying a target via the identification book don't forget to
A) lock the vessel in TBT or periscope and B) 'mark it' so the name of the vessel you're looking at is in the top left corner at TBT or periscope station.
Or, lock the vessel on TBT or periscope and ask your XO (or which ever) to ID it for you.
If you didn't ID the target, any input (speed, AoB/True heading or range) will mean nothing to the TDC and you'll get what you're describing.

PS_ Any time you send information to the TDC you have to be locked on the target.


Yes!! I get it, but what I don't get is how to get range properly and speed.

I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time).

Getting speed is done via the 3min rule and the Nomograph, don't wait for 4 or 5min's but wait 6mins, 9min's, 12min's and so on (keeps things simple :03:).


As for range I use the stadimeter, sometimes even from 8000yrds out. The range will be off a couple of 100yrds but I recalculate range starting from 4000yrds then every 10* or 15* degrees to fine tune it, keeping an eye on the targets heading on the TDC (sometimes the true heading I put in changed slightly and I adjust accordingly).



When I started this game I had contact updates turned on to get comfortable with the manual targeting and I used the PK and attack map to check my calculations and inputs (speed, true heading and range), now I'm confie enough and don't use the attack map that way anymore.
I still use contact updates (early war) so I have a dot on the Nav. map to make things easier (the game cheats, so do I :O:) But as soon as I get Radar I turn it off, I'm learning ColonelSandersLite method as seen in his patrol vid's" cause I like the way he does it :up:.

Side note:
Would like to see how he or anyone els does it without radar (early war), then I might switch off the contact updater if its easy enough.

On topic:
I never had a vessel pop out of nowhere, the only time that happens is in heavy fog but you or your crew member still must have heard it on the hydrophones.
Anyway, you'll have three options:
1_ Keep listening to the hydro's and figure out if the sound is getting closer or not and guesstimate the lot.
2_ Use sonar (Don't forget to adjust the hydrophone otherwise the sonar ping will miss).
3_ Keep tailing the sound contact until the weather clears up.

If you think you don't have enough time or made a soup of it, let the vessel pass and try again with more distance between you and it.

using the stadimeter thing.. I level the periscope with the horizon line of the ocean and start to line the ships bottom of the hull with the top of the ship.

If I understand you correctly, you try to guesstimate how deep the target is in the water then try to put that guesstimating on top of the mast.:06:
If so... Don't, use the artificial horizon and place that on top of the mast (or any part according to the identifications book).
If I didn't, my mistake.... :88)

Before I attack a vessel I make sure I know which target I'm looking at, its speed and it heading and preset it in the TDC, I didn't send it though.
I start my attack 5Nm in front of my target and go to periscope depth with scope up when I feel its getting to close to me, then wait until the silhouette (dot) is shown on the Nav.map.
Having all the necessary tools for the TDC I lock on target, switch on the PK, send preset speed to TDC (send it twice), then range and finally its true heading (send it twice as well). I even set my torpedoes at depth and open my tubes.

This however (except for the torpedoes), has a big disadvantage as I can't see nor make out its mast but every consecutive measurement taken after and specially the one's after 4000yrds gives me a near perfect solution when its time to fire my fish.

By the time its time to fire them I'm 90ft under looking at my attack map and wait for the torpedo trackline to pass 0*.
At night or in bad weather getting a good firing solution is harder because you have less time to get a good range estimate but because I already pre-set 2/3 of the solution getting good ranges by stadimeter is less stressful.

[Pisces]

...
I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time) ...You are missing the point. If you track it's position, then you can find out where it is going in the future. Then you have the advantage of dictating the place where he is attacked. You don't have to fire the torpedoes immediately!

If a merchant is popping up out of nowhere then you should reduce your time compression to give your crew a better reaction time. (But in the RFB manual they describe also a weird detection bug depending on horizon lattitude or something)

...

Then speed thing.. if I wait another minute or so and check range again, it will give me my speed right.. But even then, it shows sometimes being wayyyyy off.

it seems I could do range and speed calculations and get different results each time.

...How long are the times between the range/bearing measurements? If you have trouble getting an accurate range, and only let the target move a few degrees in bearing in your persicope, then the target course and speed calculation will be inaccurate. It's not because you are doing it the wrong way. You are likely feeding it data that cannot be trusted. If you locked the periscope on the target, then only range is the untrusty one. Give the target more time to move around you, as time will average out the error.

[fastfed]

Thanks guys..


HertogJan, I have map contacts on and have the computer ID the target..

Here is my steps, please let me know where I'm going wrong.. Screen shots and all



This is just the practice torpedo school thing..


Im at P depth..

Sonar spots a contact,

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231210_977_zpsd3efcc02.png

I tell him to follow him, so its smooth

I mark the location

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231227_427_zps8497b691.png

start my timer, wait till 3 min. and mark again

and measure

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231311_859_zps60a948fd.png

FWIW, this is not accurate, didn't really time it, just wanted to give you all an Idea of how I go about doing this.


Now I have the targets speed.. Or do I???


Now I have to get the AOB, which is where I suck at badly!!!

I understand the idea of it and get the concept, I just can't figure it out, even with map contacts, lol


Sadly for some reason with this test mission, it doesn't show the black dot, so just make believe its there.. this is what I do

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231428_825_zps4d8e6323.png

I go in front of the contact, I angle which was I think he's going and stop at the middle/end of the contact.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231434_176_zps2ae13c47.png

Now I go straight to the middle of MY sub

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231442_842_zps9ef74c2f.png

I now have a number of 65, right..

So.. I know he's going to the right of me so I know now to position the AOB dial that way and bring it to the number of 65... right?

So.. First thing I do now, is go into my periscope and lock on the target and id it.

Once I get the ID, I then set the speed that I calculated which was 13 (I know it wasn't accurate, just giving you an Idea of my process)

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231404_992_zps7a40e542.png

and hit the little red button on the top to send it to the tdc.. I sometimes click that red button a bunch of times to make sure its locking.. I dunno, I saw a video where a guy explained its buggy sometimes?

So now I got the speed in there I now hit the PK button

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231351_427_zps55553a93.png

Now time to set the AOB

of 65

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231455_409_zps8764b910.png

Then I hit the red button two times to send it to the TDC

time for the range.. right

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231542_692_zps09a6ffb5.png

putting the center of the scope to where I "think" the ships bottom is in the water

then hit the stedi button

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231531_709_zpsac87b7b0.png

I bring it down JUST UNTIL that left pole hits the bottom of the image and let go, then hit the red button


I check the Attack map to see which way my torps will go.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231555_391_zpse77a0996.png

doesn't look bad IMO.

Fire all 4


and...

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231621_794_zpsd9dc5705.png

yep..

Missed.

Even though I didn't do my speed right, if anything I put a speed of 13 or something, IMO that ship goes much faster, so I should of missed rear anyway.

What am I doing wrong.

[TorpX]

fastfed,

I can't tell much from the chart pics, but looking at the P/S view, I can see a problem. You determined the AoB to be 65, but in the screen shot it looks like it is close to 90. I have no idea what the speed might be. How are you estimating speed? If you rely on the red button feature, know that it is known to be inaccurate. This is especially true, when you are using it over short time intervals.

Honestly, I would not try to learn MT with the stock training mission. It is a very hard, and unrealistic set-up. There is not sufficient time to check data or properly develop the approach. There must be better missions that can be used for this purpose.



About the range finders:

I think people are confusing range finders that have two optical apertures separated by a significant distance (a meter or more?), and the periscope stadimeter. Such range finders didn't rely on knowing the height of the target since the range finder itself provided the base of the triangle (of known length), but the P/S has only one optic and must use the height of the target, which must be estimated beforehand, to estimate the range. Obviously, this has it's drawbacks.

I did read some time ago, about the British having a dual optic range finder for their subs, but I am not 100% sure about this. It would certainly be a nice item to have. The USN eventually solved the problem with the RADAR periscope.

[fastfed]

the angle said 65..

Am I supposed to multiply it or something? Or divide it?

I'm so lost, this suck

[magic452]

The problem with that school mission is that you are just too close to the target to get all the data you need in just one try. That is why I suggested doing a war patrol, you have more time that way.

When you do the three minute rule, do it twice if you can and connect all the Xs, That line you drew to get speed is also the target course line. You must extend the target course line way out there past your boat.
Put the center of the compass rose some were on the course line ahead of the target and than read the number where the course line crosses the outside of the compass rose. That is the target course in degrees. To get the Aob you need to draw a line from the target to the bow of your boat and measure the angle between that line and the target course line.

The big problem with getting AoB this way is by the time you get it entered into the TDC it is no longer correct as the target has moved from where you just took the measurements and if your boat is also moving the error is even bigger. That is why I suggested the method I use in my earlier post, setting the target course into the TDC instead of just AoB.
On the left top dial the bow of the little ship should point to the target course line you just measured, unless the target changes speed or course that will stay the same.

If you look at pic #6 you posted you can see that the target course line does not match the red line you just drew. That red line is wrong and so is the 65°

If you came up with a speed of 13 knots you did something wrong, the speed as I recall should be 10 knots.

Once you have the speed and the AoB you turn on the PK and than input the data in this order, first speed send to TDC second AoB Send to TDC and last range/bearing and send to TDC twice.

I'll load up the game and take some screen shots.

Magic

[Sniper297]

Yeah, you probably do have angle on the bow confused. What that is, AOB is YOUR position RELATIVE TO HIM, in other words how YOU would be reported if a lookout on the other ship saw you.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1828/88522957.jpg

I chopped the scope view out to make this smaller. The left side is the main part of the TDC, bottom dial is your sub, top is the target. The inner ring is the relative bearing, which US specified in 360 degrees, Europeans generally used "RED 90" for a 270 degree relative bearing (port beam) and "GREEN 90" for a 90 (starboard beam). The outer circle is the true bearing, relative to the north pole rather than ship's bow.

The arrow pointer in the lower dial is the gyro angle, showing how much the torpedoes would have to turn after being fired - after all you're shooting straight out of the bow or stern tubes, and the fish will run straight for 200 to 300 yards before turning to the heading set for them by the TDC. The pointer arrow on the upper dial shows the angle that the torpedo will strike the target ship assuming no change in target course or speed. Obviously this is far out of range, but the angle on the bow is starboard 105, since his speed is 12 knots the torpedoes are chasing from behind and would hit about 128 degrees.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9743/91906153.jpg

Here I've turned the sub around to head toward him, note the angle on the bow hasn't changed much, since I haven't moved very much relative to him - if he saw me he would still be looking in approximately the same direction, just a little aft of his starboard beam.

In this shot;

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-22_231555_391_zpse77a0996.png

You have a 60 degree gyro angle, in other words the torpedoes have to make a 60 degree right turn after leaving the tubes. Up to 30 degrees is okay if you have to, but the closer you can get to a zero gyro angle shot the better, since the further the fish need to turn the bigger the minor errors get magnified. So in that situation you're much better turning toward the track (or away if it's a stern shot) to get your sub lined up as close to 90 degrees to the target track as you can. Then set the AOB for about 80, and if you're perpendicular to the track it will be about 80 at the time you shoot.

Main reason for all the fooling around with the AOB in the beginning is to figure out his course - the Holy Grail of the attack is to draw his track, draw a perpendicular line 1000 yards off the track, then get there before he does and position yourself 1000 yards off the track facing toward the track at 90 degrees. Then just wait for him to reach the firing position and shoot.

[magic452]

The training mission is all but useless for learning manual targeting, you really need to go out and find a ship that is farther away so you have the time do do all this. Later war is better as you have Radar and thus more time. The firing solution you came up with is terrible, you are shooting way past what would be a good shot for the reasons Sniper gave.
By the time you open the torpedo doors and set the torpedoes to speed and depth, get all the data measured and input your target is long gone.
With the first SS I have not come even close to a firing solution and the target is already at the point I should have shot. Actually the torpedoes should have already have hit.

Here is a SS of how to get speed and AoB and the target course

This is the 3 minute rule. The circle is to get speed 9 knots.
The extended line is the target course
The red lines are to measure the AoB but as I said this will not be right by the time you enter it as the target will have moved.
Here I got 72° AoB. Don't mix up degrees of AoB with the target course which is 100°
The 72° AoB is only good for that exact moment in time as the target moves it will change. The 100° course will stay the same
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/SpeedandAoB_zps0c3f4dc0.jpg

Here is how to measure the target course, the course is 100° where the rose crosses the course line. This is what you want the TDC to say once you enter AoB This 100° course will stay the same even if both you and the target are moving as long as the target doesn't change course.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/Course100_zps2b8e74c7.jpg

This is what the TDC should look like, the ship in the left top dial will point to 10. That is a target course of 100°
To get this you turn the AoB input dial, the one on the right. Turn it to Starboard till it is close to what you see in the scope and click send to TDC.
you will see the top left dial turn. Keep adjusting the right dial and sending it to TDC till the bow on the left dial points 10 or 100°
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/Courseset100_zpsf842c1ec.jpg

Hope all this helps, if not post again and we will see what we can do.
Magic

[Shkval]

The training mission is all but useless for learning manual targeting, you really need to go out and find a ship that is farther away so you have the time do do all this.
Sooo true!!!
In my opinion most important thing to learn is how to get target's course... so download/follow these tutorials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RWDWd62q4w
and these also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAt5cAfeL9c

To measure speed: first make sure you are at dead stop, identify ship, get your stop watch and measure time needed for target to pass vertical line of your aiming cross from bow to stern, then multiply target's length with 1.943 and divide that number with number of seconds... for example:
Ship length = 120 m
Time = 25 seconds
120x1.943=233.16
233.16/25=9.3264
Target's speed is 9.3 knots.

If measuring is distance based... i.e. based on the distance or "leg" the target makes between two bearings/ranges (i.e. marks on the map, given by WO, or radar, use protractor, circle and pen tool ) calculate like this:
If time between measuring was, let's say 10 minutes, and the target in that time makes let's say 1450 m
1450/30.5=47.540984
47.540984/10=4.7540984
Round it up to 5, so target's speed is 5 knots... if you wonder what is 30.5 that is the distance (30.5 meters) an object/target makes in one minute at speed of 1 knot...
Now practice... lot of practice...

[fastfed]

The training mission is all but useless for learning manual targeting, you really need to go out and find a ship that is farther away so you have the time do do all this. Later war is better as you have Radar and thus more time. The firing solution you came up with is terrible, you are shooting way past what would be a good shot for the reasons Sniper gave.
By the time you open the torpedo doors and set the torpedoes to speed and depth, get all the data measured and input your target is long gone.
With the first SS I have not come even close to a firing solution and the target is already at the point I should have shot. Actually the torpedoes should have already have hit.

Here is a SS of how to get speed and AoB and the target course

This is the 3 minute rule. The circle is to get speed 9 knots.
The extended line is the target course
The red lines are to measure the AoB but as I said this will not be right by the time you enter it as the target will have moved.
Here I got 72° AoB. Don't mix up degrees of AoB with the target course which is 100°
The 72° AoB is only good for that exact moment in time as the target moves it will change. The 100° course will stay the same
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/SpeedandAoB_zps0c3f4dc0.jpg

Here is how to measure the target course, the course is 100° where the rose crosses the course line. This is what you want the TDC to say once you enter AoB This 100° course will stay the same even if both you and the target are moving as long as the target doesn't change course.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/Course100_zps2b8e74c7.jpg

This is what the TDC should look like, the ship in the left top dial will point to 10. That is a target course of 100°
To get this you turn the AoB input dial, the one on the right. Turn it to Starboard till it is close to what you see in the scope and click send to TDC.
you will see the top left dial turn. Keep adjusting the right dial and sending it to TDC till the bow on the left dial points 10 or 100°
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/Courseset100_zpsf842c1ec.jpg

Hope all this helps, if not post again and we will see what we can do.
Magic


WTF!!

see..

What in the world is the point of using that tool that gives you angle info?

I see a number of 45 or something.. from everything you just showed me, I wouldn't need to use that at all.

[magic452]

That is the point you don't need to measure AoB with the protractor,
All you need to do is get a good target course and measure it's true heading(course line) with the compass rose and put that course into the TDC using the AoB input dial. It's really that simple. By using the three minute rule you get both speed and course, 2/3 for your firing solution and you may not have even seen the target yet. You don't even need to raise the periscope to do this, sonar or later radar is all you need to get to this point.

All you need than is range/bearing, get this with the steadimeter once the target gets closer. When it's in a comfortable shooting range turn on the PK and start inputting your data. Speed, that shouldn't have changed Second use a AoB input dial to set in the course, that should not have changed either and last steadimeter range/bearing, check the firing solution on the attack map and adjust as necessary.

Get to where you can hit with some consistency and than you can try more difficult shots later.

There are other ways to do all this but this is the simplest, try it first.

Good luck and good hunting.:salute::salute:
Magic

[fastfed]

Thanks Magic!! you made it easier to understand.. I kept getting over my head with the protractor.. so really I just need to know the course the ship is on..

[magic452]

Glad to help. There is a war going on here and we need all the good skippers we can get. :salute:

Once you get the hang of it you'll be sinking ships like crazy and the game will take on a new meaning.

Magic

[CapnScurvy]

Fastfed (and anyone else), since you're attempting to learn manual targeting and trying to map plot the target, I'd suggest you download and print out this reference "High Realism Tutorial" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=150069). It's designed to have a new player become familiar with the Position Keeper, Attack Data Tool, the several tools used on the Navigation Map, and the process in getting Speed, Angle on Bow and Range/Target Relative Bearing to work for you in acquiring a firing solution.

At the above thread you'll find my AoB Calculator which is a handy handheld device to figure target AoB, or it's tract heading. The Position Keeper does the same duty, so you don't have to have it, but it is helpful when at the Nav Map. Also, there's a "High Realism Mission" which can be added to the game with JSGME so you can follow the same target that's described in the tutorial. If this single mission isn't enough, download this mission "AoB Test" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//downloads.php?do=file&id=3117), it has several targets heading towards your submerged sub at different angles/speeds for practice too. I made it for practicing with OTC, but it'll work with just about any mod. Once the practice missions are activated through JSGME, you'll find them in the "Single Missions" menu at the "main" menu screen.

One thing about your example images of the Nav Map......Why aren't you using the Nomograph? That's the three vertical lines thingy on the right side of the map! If you know the distance a target traveled, and the amount of time it took to travel that distance.......drawing a straight line connecting the two figures will point you to the speed the target is making. Simple as that.

[HertogJan]

One thing about your example images of the Nav Map......Why aren't you using the Nomograph? That's the three vertical lines thingy on the right side of the map! If you know the distance a target traveled, and the amount of time it took to travel that distance.......drawing a straight line connecting the two figures will point you to the speed the target is making. Simple as that.


Cause the 3min rule is easier, distance / 100 = speed

[twm47099]

Cause the 3min rule is easier, distance / 100 = speed

Sure it is, and I use it when I want to wait 3 or 6 minutes. But if I need a speed in 1 minute or 5.5 minutes, or if I'm doing a few things and don't want to mark things at exactly 3 minutes, the nomogram is a quick and simple way to figure speed rather than the division by xyz ways.

There are a number of different ways to do things, and each tool (3 minute rule, nomogram, calculations) each have their uses.

My primary manual attack method is the zero gyro attack selecting the approach angle (e.g. 90, 45, or in between depending on the situation.) But when useful (or to keep in practice) I also use the TDC (bearing, range, AOB -with course verification), passive sonar only methods, and Kentucky Windage for snap shots.

I find it useful to understand what is going on in each attack method and the inter-dependencies between parameters (like AOB and target course) to help me decide what type of attack to make, what neat thing to try (hits on 3 targets simultaneously), and how to proceed after my attack (snapshot ? as my periscope goes under at the tanker veering out of column and crossing my stern after the first targets were hit.)

Tom

[HertogJan]

Sure it is, and I use it when I want to wait 3 or 6 minutes. But if I need a speed in 1 minute or 5.5 minutes, or if I'm doing a few things and don't want to mark things at exactly 3 minutes, the nomogram is a quick and simple way to figure speed rather than the division by xyz ways.

There are a number of different ways to do things, and each tool (3 minute rule, nomogram, calculations) each have their uses.

My primary manual attack method is the zero gyro attack selecting the approach angle (e.g. 90, 45, or in between depending on the situation.) But when useful (or to keep in practice) I also use the TDC (bearing, range, AOB -with course verification), passive sonar only methods, and Kentucky Windage for snap shots.

I find it useful to understand what is going on in each attack method and the inter-dependencies between parameters (like AOB and target course) to help me decide what type of attack to make, what neat thing to try (hits on 3 targets simultaneously), and how to proceed after my attack (snapshot ? as my periscope goes under at the tanker veering out of column and crossing my stern after the first targets were hit.)

Tom


Very true :up:

Wasn't meant in a disrespectful way at all but more like:

When learning manual targeting this is by far the easiest way to get speed and true course.
Once you get the hang of it you can start with other ways of get the same results without second guessing the input.

[TorpX]

There are a few things I'd like to add for fastfed, or anyone else who is learning, or brushing up on their manual targeting skills.

First, most often, AoB estimations were done visually. That is, by "seaman's eye". Of course, you can rely on the plot in this game, but if your range estimations are far off (as they often are), so too will your AoB's be off. Skill in visually estimating AoB, while not easily obtained, is very worthwhile, and provides a means of checking the plot.

The DOWNLOADS section has a program called "Solution Solver" by Gutted, which incorporates a "training mode" where you can estimate the AoB of a ship, and then see how close your estimate was. This greatly aids learning this aspect of the game.

[fastfed]

wanted to thank EVERYONE so far.. this is great info.

I've been doing pretty well.. Started a new campaign in an S-18, finding lone merchants, diving to P depth..

Starting my 3 minute test and so far, 1 out of 3 are hitting.. So its a learning curve for sure.

I'm getting the targets coarse down pretty well, speed is ok and range is ok.

Sometimes I hit the first torp. or sometimes I miss the first and adjust the speed.. If the torp is a miss front, I adjust the speed and lower it depending on how much I miss.

I just hit my first long range target by pure luck.

Sometimes you have time to do the 3 minute mark, but for example this time I didn't

I did for 1 merchant that was far away from a convoy behind me, 3 torps and 1 hit, he suck.

I swung around and had to go full flank to catch up to the other 8 or so in a convoy, by the time I got there I has maybe 30 seconds to set up and take the shot, no way would I have 3 minutes.

I had 1 torp left ready to shoot so I shot by the hip. Took a guess on every, speed.AOB.. Except range I asked my sonar guy to ping him, and send data to the TDC.

sure enough 3k yards away, I fired.. Dove deep to avoid the incoming DD and turned..

some minute or so later.. "Torpedo impact!!!"


:D

That feeling right there beats anything else this game can offer.. I now know why manual targeting is awesome :)

[fastfed]

You just cannot say enough words to appreciate the feeling of getting things right!!

3 minute mark, had a speed of 12 knots, had the correct bearing, fired two torpedoes right when the target would of got to my 0,bow.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-24_175252_245_zps56859446.png

First one would of hit fine, but it was a dude and blew up before it reached, the second one hit its mark perfectly!


http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-24_175231_232_zpsb5324c86.png

I went to the attack nav just to check after the ship already got hit

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-24_175243_446_zpsdc694e3a.png

was still pretty good.

don't hate me for keeping map contacts on, :)
I wouldn't even know what to do without it :)

when I do decide to turn them off, do you still see the line for what the sonar sees ??

[fastfed]

also, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the sonar guys range was way off.

He was about 1500 too much!

[Armistead]

You just cannot say enough words to appreciate the feeling of getting things right!!

don't hate me for keeping map contacts on, :)
I wouldn't even know what to do without it :)

when I do decide to turn them off, do you still see the line for what the sonar sees ??

Don't feel bad contacts on, game wise it's probably more historic than off. I usually play with contacts on, but cams off. I enjoy not knowing what's going on and cams off is much more realistic.

Once you get really good with the radar and plotting, you may want to try contacts off.

[CapnScurvy]

also, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the sonar guys range was way off.

He was about 1500 too much!

Never follow what the Sonarman tells you his estimated range is when found in the Message Text Box. It's never right. When you want an accurate sonar range measurement you'll need to take it yourself.

Knowing what the relative bearing of the target is, either mouse click the sonar bearing dial (on right side), or use the keyboard Home/End keys to mark the bearing. Mouse click the left most toggle switch to "Send" a ping. The sonar range dial will indicate the distance up to 4000+ yards, but listen for a "return ping" indicating a good hit. It could still come after the range dial has stopped revolving. If no return ping, adjust the bearing just a degree or two. Sometimes a minor bearing adjustment is all that's necessary. Once a return ping is made, click the right toggle switch to "Send" the range to the Position Keeper/TDC. Going to the periscope station or TBT, you'll find the accurate range shown on the Position Keeper. It's exactly nut's on.

Just be aware that pinging a target when a warship is near is going to give away your position. That trot you find them in is intended to find you and beat the snott out of you!

[Carrollsue]

Cause the 3min rule is easier, distance / 100 = speed


I agree it is, but I check on the Nomograph for a conformation. Don't us sonar except for single target.

[fastfed]

getting mad again!!!

Ok.. SO I have the line for the course..

right.

how do I input this on the TDC again?

I know how to do it, but how am I reading it.

Because I found the line to be a course of 325 based on the compass from the ruler and when I put 32 on the AOB top right dial, its not even damn close!!

argagrgargargagr

[CapnScurvy]

OK, You didn't read my "High Realism Tutorial" did you?!

Page 11, Chapter 12......you have a line drawn from the sub, along the relative bearing you've spotted the target on. That's line one. You say you have the target tract line (the targets course) and it's at 325 true north bearing. That's line two.

You know the target course bearing because you took two different relative bearing readings of the target and figured the range to target in both readings. You marked the spots on the map and drew a line through the two of them. That's the targets course path/tract; or you simply drew a line through the targets icon.... from the rear of the ship, out through the icon, simulating the targets estimated path/tract. Either way you have 2 lines drawn on the map. One from the sub following the targets relative bearing from the sub (line one), that intersects with the estimated targets tract course (line two).

Now, use the Protractor Tool (that's the tool that looks like a square....in the left/bottom most spot of the map corner). Left click on your subs relative bearing line, and pull a line along it's path until you reach the intersecting target course line. Left click at the intersection. Now, turn down the target course line and follow it for a bit, in the direction the target is traveling. The degree reading at the intersecting point is your angle on bow.

To input the AoB, you'll take the degree amount you found and move the AoB dial on the Attack Data Tool to the same figure. Click the red "send" button, the PK/TDC is updated. A quick point, if the AoB is say 29 degrees, move the AoB Dial to 2.9. The dial is set up in tenth's, 30 degrees is 3.0, 90 degrees is 9.0. Also, don't forget to mark whether it's Port or Starboard.

Next time read the directions. :D

[fastfed]

OK, You didn't read my "High Realism Tutorial" did you?!

Page 11, Chapter 12......you have a line drawn from the sub, along the relative bearing you've spotted the target on. That's line one. You say you have the target tract line (the targets course) and it's at 325 true north bearing. That's line two.

You know the target course bearing because you took two different relative bearing readings of the target and figured the range to target in both readings. You marked the spots on the map and drew a line through the two of them. That's the targets course path, or you simply drew a line through the targets icon from the rear out simulating the targets path. Either way, you have a line drawn from the sub on the targets relative bearing (line one) that intersects with the targets tract course (line two).

Now, use the Compass Tool (that's the map tool that looks like a compass......the one that draws circles on paper). Left click on your subs relative bearing line, and pull a line along it's path until you reach the intersecting target course line. Left click at the intersection. Now, turn down the target course line and follow it for a bit, in the direction the target is traveling. The degree reading at the intersecting point is your angle on bow.

To input the AoB, you'll take the degree amount you found and move the AoB dial on the Attack Data Tool to the same figure. Click the red "send" button, the PK/TDC is updated. A quick point, if the AoB is say 29 degrees, move the AoB Dial to 2.9. The dial is set up in tenth's, 30 degrees is 3.0, 90 degrees is 9.0. Also, don't forget to mark whether it's Port or Starboard.

Next time read the directions. :D

Thanks.. but I was told I really didn't need to use the protractor, drawning a line from my sub to the target, I haven't and it seems to work.. what I don't get is this!

Here is the course line of the ship, I put the compass over the line..

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-25_000132_516_zps59172560.png

What is the course of this ship?



Now.. How do I enter this on the TDC, top right dial, right?

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-25_000143_550_zps1d657fc1.png

[Armistead]

Can't read your SS, old eyes, but if you mark two points the ship travels, then drag the compass between points to get the course, just enter the course using the outer markings on the left AOB wheel. You do that by adjusting the AOB wheel on the right by clicking it until it matches course or if you use EZ AOB, you can spin the wheel. Simply, the ships course relative to your sub is a perfect AOB.

Most people do the 3 minute at the same time, get speed and course. As long as it doesn't change, you'll just need a good range.

[CapnScurvy]

Thanks.. but I was told I really didn't need to use the protractor, drawning a line from my sub to the target, I haven't and it seems to work.. what I don't get is this!

Here is the course line of the ship, I put the compass over the line..

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-25_000132_516_zps59172560.png

What is the course of this ship?



Now.. How do I enter this on the TDC, top right dial, right?

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/fastfed/SH4Img2013-02-25_000143_550_zps1d657fc1.png

Use the protractor!!

Depending on which direction the target is going in your first picture, the course bearing to true north is read closest to the target ship as you pull the circular protracter away from the target starting point. In your picture, if the target is traveling toward the top of the map (North), the course bearing is 335 degrees. If the target is heading towards the bottom of the map (South), the target course bearing is 155 degrees. All you've given us is a straight line with the circular protractor sitting on the line. It makes a difference where the target is in relationship to which side the protractor is read. You always pull the protractor away from the sub or target ship, going in the direction of travel. The protractor is always read at the degree mark that's nearest the ship you've just pulled away from.

Neither of these degree figures are the Angle on Bow.

The bearing found with the circular protractor is the targets course compared to true North.


Now.. How do I enter this on the TDC, top right dial, right?


You don't. There's no place to enter the targets true North course bearing. This gets figured out from the Position Keeper/TDC by knowing what direction your sub is traveling, and the inputs of target AoB and the targets relative bearing to the sub.

You'll need to find and enter the targets Angle on Bow.

To do this, you need to use the square protractor (that's the brown triangular tool at the bottom left of the map). In your second picture the relative bearing shows the target at 290 degrees. Take the 290 degree relative bearing to the nav map. With the circular protractor tool, draw from the center of the sub out to intersect with the targets course bearing line. Again, make sure the 290 degree mark on the protractor is matched with the line your drawing away from the sub. Now, you have the two lines I was talking about earlier. The subs relative bearing "sight line" to the target, and the targets course bearing to true North. Choose the square protractor and you get an icon that looks like a compass you draw circles with on paper. Set the tool on your subs relative bearing line, and draw it out to where it intersects with the targets course line. Left click at the intersection, then turn down the target course line and follow it for a bit. The degree figure that's at the intersection of these two lines is your AoB.

It's this figure.....the angle in degrees between the two lines.....that you enter on the Attack Data Tool (it's what it's called!!), the tool at the top right of the scope station. Find the AoB dial, it's one of three, and move the dial to match the angle found. For instance, if the target course bearing was 155, heading South East. Your subs heading (I'm just throwing this out) is due North at 0 degree, and you see the target at a relative bearing of 290 degrees. The AoB of the target is 45 degrees Port. You'd set the Attack Data Tool AoB Dial to 4.5 Port and "send" the bearing to the Position Keeper/TDC. How do I know this without running the game? Because I'm using my hand held AoB Calculator (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3347) to compute the figures into useful information.

[magic452]

Here is the SS I had earlier
The little black dot to the left of the compass rose is the target ship.
You place the compass ahead of the target and read the number that is closest to the target. In this case it's 100 that is the target is heading easterly at a compass heading of 100° 90° would be dead east. Forget the red lines you don't need them.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/Course100_zps6859bb23.png

You would would turn the AoB data entry dial (right side) to the starboard side of the dial (that is the side you will be shooting at) and turn it to where you thing it should be and send to TDC. Look at the left side top dial and see what it reads on the outer ring, the bow of the ship should point to 10 which equals 100°. If it doesn't repeat the process till it points to the 10. Sounds complicated but it's really easy after you do it a few times and your AoB will be dead accurate.



In the two screen shots you posted it looks like the target course would be about 155° or southeast and you are below the target heading in almost the same direction. You put the compass ahead of the target enough so you can read the numbers on the outside of the rose that is closest to the target. Can't see your boat or the target so I'm just guessing but the lower left dial is your boat and it's pointing somewhat east northeast.

What may be confusing you is that the compass is upside down from what a real compass is. The reason for this is if you are drawing a line from one point to another the compass will show the direction the line is going. To understand this take the tool and draw a line from left to right straight across the screen, that line will go from west to east or an easterly heading. That heading will be about 90° and that is the number you will see on the trailing edge of the compass so you have to read the trailing edge of the tool.

My eyes aren't all that good but it looks like to me that you have 335° not 325. It also looks like you are getting the way to set the left dial correct you just seem to be reading the compass wrong.

Magic

CapnScurvy post faster than I do.
What he and I are talking about are two different methods of getting data. With my way you don't need any figure for AoB at all just the targets course line or heading. There are no other lines to draw or measure other than the three minute rule line and read it with the compass. It's much simpler, much faster and much more accurate. There is nothing wrong with doing it his way and the way he does it is very good. You can do it either way.
I have nothing but deep respect for CapnScurvy he knows this game inside and out and makes beautiful mods, I use several of them.
We just have two different ways of doing the AoB thing.

[fastfed]

Thanks again..

I realized my stupidity..

When I was analyzing the targets information, the bearing was getting me confused.. Because it was far away, the bearing of ship made no sense to me, forgetting that the position keeper would adjust as the ship got closer.. so a bearing of 85 for example, at first made no sense, it showed the ship coming right at me.

Then I realized it was because it was 5000+ yards away.

I think I'm getting it now :)

I had a buzyun about 2k+ yards away and I was going full flank P depth.

I hit both torps dead center! I assume the TDC takes into account my speed?

[magic452]

Yep the TDC will take into account your speed and heading as well if you have to change course for some reason. It tracks both your boat and the target.

Glad to see you're putting it all together, it's a lot simpler than it sounds once you get everything figured out.

Magic

[Sniper297]

"a course of 325 based on the compass from the ruler and when I put 32 on the AOB top right dial, its not even damn close!!"

You're still not understanding angle on the bow.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2014683&postcount=44

If the target is heading due north, his course is 000. You don't enter 0 into the AOB unless YOU are due north OF HIM. AGAIN the Angle On the Bow is the bearing FROM HIM TO YOU. If he's heading north and you are due west of him, you are on his port 90, if you're southeast of him the AOB would be starboard 135. If you're southeast of him and he's heading northwest, AOB would be 18 because you're directly behind him. If he's heading 135 and you bear 135 TRUE from him, then the AOB would be zero because he's heading directly toward you. It doesn't matter which way you're facing, again AOB is the relative (NOT TRUE!) bearing FROM HIM TO YOU.

What that's used for is at the start to figure out which way he's heading, then for the firing solution to set the gyro angle. If his speed is 12 knots and the AOB is port 90, you are on his port beam, so he's moving from right to left and the TDC will apply the full 12 knot lead angle ahead of him to your left, in other words aiming for where he will be when the torpedoes get there. If the AOB is port 45 the TDC won't lead him as much, it will be aiming at a different projected lead angle since the lead is less with less than 90 degrees. If he's heading right toward you or away from you the lead angle is zero, since the bearing won't change during the torpedo run. That's the main reason the AOB is important at the moment of firing, the TDC needs that and the speed to calculate how much to lead the target.

Again simplest method is to plot his course, move to where you're 1000 yards off the track facing toward the track at about 90 degrees (90 degrees TO THE TRACK, don't get compass degrees confused, if his course is 315 then you would be facing 90 degrees to his course, 225 or 045) then set the AOB for 80, wait until he arrives and he IS at 80, and fire away.

Again the best attack starts with a good approach, a sub is not fast or maneuverable underwater, so the best attack starts with doing whatever it takes to get directly in front of the target without being seen and wait for him to come to you. Plot the target track, stay 5 miles away from him until you're ahead of him, then move toward the track keeping out of his detection range. Once you're five miles directly ahead of him near his track you can submerge and do the final positioning, which won't take much speed if you're already close to the track. The target track is the holy grail of any attack.

[Armistead]

Magic, we both do it the same way, it's really so simple and a perfect AOB.

[I'm goin' down]

(Psst. Don't tell anybody, but Nimitz told me that Armistead really only uses auto targeting!)

[fastfed]

Well its been some time, and I must say, with total confidence !!

I GOT IT!! :) WOOT!!

I've been doing really well the last few patrols.. I have my system down pretty good.. While yes, I cheat with map contacts on, and checking my firing solution on the attack map, I still have to get all the data.

I spot a merchant and dive to P depth and shut engines down.

I mark the contact VIA hydro's and start timing 3 minutes.. I mark again and get a decent speed down.

I then mark 2 or 3 more times to get a good bearing down.

Then I get into position from the line I made based on his course.

I pop the scope up and enter the speed and bearing.. I check the ship and start adjusting my fish.

Now I start my range.. I will cheat here and there by measuring in the map, as I'm not that good with the stedimeter.

If I miss, I miss, I don't reload (anymore) I take it as a real miss as a real captain would do.. lol what other choice did he have, right? hehehe


But.. When I really realized I had a good sense of manual targeting was just 10 minutes ago.

with only stern fish left (4) I found my contact and went into my routine, backwards.

Only this time when I popped the scope.. Yep.. Major storm, visibility was at best 10 yards..

What to do, what to do.

I set everything like I normally do, only this time I jumped into the sonar station and took bearings and distance manually.

I set them all into the TDC and at about 1200 yards away, I fired 4 spread from left to right 5 degrees.

I waited in real time..

And less than a minute or so.. BOOM... BOOM

two beautiful sounds.. I hit two fish into his side.. Had no clue what kind of ship it was (Buzyon, after I looked) hoping it wasn't a friendly but I made sure my torps were set shallow just incase.

What a feeling!!!

Thanks again all!

[les green01]

woot wtg now you know the feeling