The Thinks and Think-Nots of Political Correctness in Germany

[Skybird]

A German-language article showing the history how the breaking of past corsets and schemes led to the new tyranny of (left-leaning) dogmas that limit what is acceptable to think and to say, and what not.

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/tid-29319/political-correctness-klappe-zu-am-anfang-stand-der-ausbruch-aus-schablonen_aid_912187.html

4 pages.

While some of the descriptions may be specifically Germany-related, much of what is written in that text nevertheless is valid for all Western world today.

[Dowly]

A Finnish-language article from Wikipedia on German language:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saksan_kieli

Includes such useful bits like how many people speak it, where it is spoken and other
info to help one realise how stupid it is to post a 4 page German-language
article to a website where majority speaks english.

Also:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=195273

Use it. :yeah:

[Hottentot]

^^
Ketju on vallattu. Hajaantukaa!

[Dowly]

^^
Ketju on vallattu. Hajaantukaa!

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/1039851.gif

[mookiemookie]

A Finnish-language article from Wikipedia on German language:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saksan_kieli

Includes such useful bits like how many people speak it, where it is spoken and other
info to help one realise how stupid it is to post a 4 page German-language
article to a website where majority speaks english.

Also:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=195273

Use it. :yeah:

10 points to the ferret!:har:

[Hottentot]

10 points to the ferret!:har:

Hus! :stare:

[Skybird]

A Finnish-language article from Wikipedia on German language:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saksan_kieli

Includes such useful bits like how many people speak it, where it is spoken and other
info to help one realise how stupid it is to post a 4 page German-language
article to a website where majority speaks english.

Also:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=195273

Use it. :yeah:
Tell that those people who occasionally complain or mock about that I always only quote from the English edition of Der Spiegel as the only major newspaper from Germany having an English edition.

BTW, not English neither French or Spanish or any other language is spoken by the most people in Europe. The most spoken mother tongue in Europe - is German. ;)

And some people in this forum speka German as well. Not just the Germans. ;)

[Dowly]

No nyt kun meillä on ihan ikioma threadi niin taidanpa avautua hieman.

Ammattikoulut on alkanut harrastaa 1-3 arvostelua vanhan 1-5 asteikon sijaan ja
sekös se kusee. Esimerkkinä viime viikkoinen sähköasentajan näyttö, jonka tulokset
sain tietää tänään:

Teoria (jolla nyt ei tee yhtään mitään :O:)
1. Tyydyttävä
2. Hylätty
--
Käytäntö:
3. Kiitettävä
4. Kiitettävä
5. Hyvä
6. Kiitettävä
7. Hyvä
8. Hyvä
9. Kiitettävä
10. Kiitettävä

Loppuarvosana: Tyydyttävä

:shifty:

----

BTW, not English neither French or Spanish or any other language is spoken by the most people in Europe. The most spoken mother tongue in Europe - is German. ;)SUBSIM.COM is not Europe. ;)

And some people in this forum speka German as well. Not just the Germans. ;)Still, majority speak English. And as I pointed already, you have the 'Notes from Germania' thread where you can put your German stuff.

[AVGWarhawk]

Έχω ξέρω ιδέα τι ακριβώς είπε ο Dowly.

[August]

Atway Owlyday idsay. :yep:

[Oberon]

Klaatu Barada Nikto

[Takeda Shingen]

Tell that those people who occasionally complain or mock about that I always only quote from the English edition of Der Spiegel as the only major newspaper from Germany having an English edition.

BTW, not English neither French or Spanish or any other language is spoken by the most people in Europe. The most spoken mother tongue in Europe - is German. ;)

And some people in this forum speka German as well. Not just the Germans. ;)

Dowly's point is spot-on. Skybird, use the thread that you yourself designated for German language articles. This is an English language forum. Thanks.

[Skybird]

No nyt kun meillä on ihan ikioma threadi niin taidanpa avautua hieman.

Ammattikoulut on alkanut harrastaa 1-3 arvostelua vanhan 1-5 asteikon sijaan ja
sekös se kusee. Esimerkkinä viime viikkoinen sähköasentajan näyttö, jonka tulokset
sain tietää tänään:

Teoria (jolla nyt ei tee yhtään mitään :O:)
1. Tyydyttävä
2. Hylätty
--
Käytäntö:
3. Kiitettävä
4. Kiitettävä
5. Hyvä
6. Kiitettävä
7. Hyvä
8. Hyvä
9. Kiitettävä
10. Kiitettävä

Loppuarvosana: Tyydyttävä

:shifty:

----

SUBSIM.COM is not Europe. ;)

Still, majority speak English. And as I pointed already, you have the 'Notes from Germania' thread where you can put your German stuff.

Na nu reg Dich mal nicht künstlich auf. Es ist selten genug daß ich mal einen thread auf der Grundlage eines deutschen Textes eröffne, da wird es ein so starker Kerl aus dem harten Norden dieses Mal wohl auch überleben.

And some statistical facts. German is in Europe, together with French, the most spoken official language. It is, again together with French, the second-most spoken native language, after English. In 2006, 44.5% of the people in the EU territories were learning it as a native or foreign language, or already spoke it. In the European countries not being members of the EU, the quota was 7,9% in 2006. Every seventh european for whom German is not his native language, speaks it frequently as a foreign language or a secondary language, due to formal, official or business needs. Beside Austria, Germany, parts of Switzerland where German is the native language, it is spoken by minorities in half a dozen othe rEuopean nations, whereas in the Netherland (a hopping 70%), Slowakia, Hungary, Czech Republik, Poland, Estland, denmark, Sweden, croatia, Slowenia, the number of people having sufficient knowledge to speak and aunderstand German varies between 25 and 55%.

Beside that, 12% of all books worldwide are published in German first (English: 27%). 8% of all websites in the web are in German. In Europe, only more new book releases are published in the UK (in English, therefore), the German book market is a close second. The biggets language market for translations of German books into a foreign language, is not English or French, but Russian, Polish, and Czech language, with Polish in the lead, I think.

All this is data based on the status in 2008-2009.

[Catfish]

Klaatu Barada Nikto

^^ I remember that :haha:

[Dowly]

Na nu reg Dich mal nicht künstlich auf. Es ist selten genug daß ich mal einen thread auf der Grundlage eines deutschen Textes eröffne, da wird es ein so starker Kerl aus dem harten Norden dieses Mal wohl auch überleben.

You often use German words, post German articles on threads and so on. It's not just about this thread, but in general, it would be better to just stick to English. :hmmm:

[August]

^^ I remember that :haha:

Me too.

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/demotivationalposters.net/image/demotivational-poster/1005/klaatu-barada-nikto-giant-robot-gort-demotivational-poster-1273855977.jpg

[Bilge_Rat]

Je ne comprends pas le point de Dowly car je ne comprends pas le langage des "Furets", qu'ils soient finlandais ou d'un autre pays. :D

L'article posté par Skybird est peut être interessant, mais je ne comprends pas l'allemand non plus......

:woot:

[sublynx]

Anyways, thanks for the link (I had trouble reading it with the little German I remember from school, but Google translate helped me some) :know:

I find it somewhat ironic that the article talked about language, political correctness, taboos and the need to free the language from taboos, and the way you got corrected here because of the language of the article :hmm2: I do agree with Dowly and company though on keeping the site English as olisi hankalaa, jos kieltä vaihdettaisiin vapaasti, but on the other hand I don't see any need to keep the rule that strictly.

Hopefully the thread gets some comments on the subject as well :)

[Cybermat47]

Рис шрам :hmm2: розах АМН вари ломи :nope:

Пород до по :88)
Злости :subsim:

[Skybird]

Hey Dowly, maybe we too easily banged heads there. In principle you are right, and 99.5% of the time I respect the English nature of this forum. That I start a thread on basis of a German text is very rare, however. In English threads I indeed occasionally - still rarely, I would say - post a link to a German text, but I always indicate that the link is leading to a German text so that nobody needs to follow it if he cannot or does not want to read something German.

When I give something in German, then for two reasons: I find it worthy enough to give note of it, and I did not find an English pendant-text to it. If I would ripplefire German news in this forum about trivialities or ordinary every-day news, and have four threads per day like that, that indeed would be a problem, I totally agree.

Also, it is indeed true that some people repeatedly complained and mocked over me always quoting the English edition of Der Spiegel, and making unjustified conclusions by that, about how much I like the Spiegel and so on. That usually happens when they do not like what I quoted or posted in links. I cannot help it, Spiegel is the only title of the major online newspaper and magazine releases in Germany investing into an English edition. Other papers tried that in the past, and soon gave up again. There are some other English publications in Germany, of course, but they are more specialized, live a niche life and I scan them not that frequently, as far as I am even aware of them. And what I get from them then usually is not that interesting that I need to post it in a thread.

The text now I linked because I find it worth to contemplate over that behind what is called political correctness now - originally were good and rational intentions that did want to defend free speech and free thinking. The text, though not in full length, but in a sideline, tries to examine how it came that this intention turned into right the opposite of what it originally intended - establishing dogmas and taboos and demonizing everybody daring to have an opinion violating that dogma/taboo, and ultimately people even mislearning how to think outside the dogma and to check whether the taboos indeed are holding any substance.

I consider such things to be not only interesting, but important. I also marked the link as to be leading to a German text, so that nobody needed to waste time with following it in vain. I tend to see events and trends not to as isolated singular events and trends, but as being linked either to each other directly, or via a third, indirect variable, so to speak, or they are symptoms of something deeper going on. That'S why also link up and pack together certain trends and developements in society that some or many others tend to adress on a one-by-one basis and do not put into a higher context at all, so they see the things isolated. At least that is the impression some people give when taking their arguments.

Anyhow. Cuddle the ferret. :subsim:

P.S. I simply forgot that old thread of mine, btw, the one that you mentioned.

[Buddahaid]

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Gort! Deglet ovrosco!

[Takeda Shingen]

Watashi wa anata no kankaku wo wakai Skybird gamotte iru manzo ku****e imasu.

EDIT: Hahaha forum autocensor.

[Dowly]

@Skybird

Hey no worries. And I admit, I could've worded my first post a bit more politely,
just have had bit of a poopy day. :-?

It's easier to spark a discussion when everyone can read and understand what is
being discussed, that is all. :salute:

And for the record, I like German language. Kinda regret I didn't pay much attention during the class at school.

[Skybird]

@Skybird

Hey no worries. And I admit, I could've worded my first post a bit more politely,
just have had bit of a poopy day. :-?

It's easier to spark a discussion when everyone can read and understand what is
being discussed, that is all. :salute:

And for the record, I like German language. Kinda regret I didn't pay much attention during the class at school.

Yes, I indeed was a little bit pissed by your opening, but I also think I have read to much into it. At least we got a thread that now is active and already on page 2. Tomorrow I will quote some Rilke poems - in German, to add some spice to it all. :D

[nikimcbee]

You often use German words, post German articles on threads and so on. It's not just about this thread, but in general, it would be better to just stick to English. :hmmm:

I say PERKELE to that!

[August]

I have to wonder Skybird why Der Spiegel is your only choice when it comes to English speaking news media. Must whatever point you're making at the time be backed up by a German news article?

Cannot truth also be found in non German sources?

[Skybird]

I have to wonder Skybird why Der Spiegel is your only choice when it comes to English speaking news media. Must whatever point you're making at the time be backed up by a German news article?

Cannot truth also be found in non German sources?

Truth...? Okay, let's skip that part.

The differences between the focus and bias of national press can be tremendous. The quality of journalistic working methods also. I like the way in which they try to strictly separate opinion from article in the NYT, the WP and the HT. That is a characteristic of American newspaper, it seems to me, at least the big, better ones. We do not have this discipline, at least not that strictly executed, in the German mass press, here an opinion often gets included in the article as if it were an objective fact. However, sometimes German news has a focus on an aspect of a story, or a general view on things that you do not see covered in American or British news. It depends, sometimes I like a British or German piece better than the american piece, sometimes the other way around. And sometimes something that gets covered by one country'S media, finds almost no coverage in the other country' media. Although it might be an issue of international interest.

It pays off to at least occasionally scan newspapers from other countries, therefore. I therefore also have several others on my "list". But I do not run down that list that frequently anymore like I used to do.

As a German, living in Germany and speaking German, maybe it is not that big a surprise that nevertheless most news I scan per day is German-sourced. I added British and American media, but have moved away a bit from that, due to changing or lacking interests.

Whenever I link a German article, I first do a quick scan on whether I could find without to much time spend an English pendant.

It'S like I said twice now, August. When I post a link to an English article, then you can assume that I did not find a pendant to it in English within a reasonable amount of time. It may be there, but I do not want to scan half an hour via Google or by checking headlines in a dozen foreign newspapers. Or the article as a whole is such that it cannot be replaced - in the meaning of a source or fundament for my own opinion - by another one. Do you really think that what you called truth is completely covered in English newspapers only? There is a world beyond the English language - and it is bigger than just the English world. ;)

Edit: PS. Just for the sake of completeness - sometimes Der Spiegel has very good editorials. Really very well done and well-reasoned, good written, sometimes longer multi-page articles. Well, the word to watch out for is: "sometimes". Spiegel has many authors, some are very left-leaning, others are more libertarian and centrist, sometimes they write more conservative stuff than others. Thirty years ago the magazine was far more left-leaning than it is today. If you want to read a real extreme lefty paper, try the Süddeutsche Zeitung or the TAZ.

[August]

][/I]Do you really think that what you called truth is completely covered in English newspapers only? There is a world beyond the English language - and it is bigger than just the English world. ;)

Strawman argument Skybird. I never said that, or implied it either.

But to answer you, if truth is present in other languages it is also present in English and since this is an English speaking forum you should use English language sources when making a point so we all can read them with full understanding.

And yes you constantly using Der Spiegel is like someone here using only the NYT or Fox News. Playing the victim card because people call you on it is disingenuous. They only do so because Der Spiegel is just as biased as the worst US news rag imaginable.

[Skybird]

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8678/7222katzedesinteresseja.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/7222katzedesinteresseja.jpg/)

[Takeda Shingen]

This is another reason that you and I have problems, Skybird. August addressed your points. Instead of addressing them, you go and post in a dismissive fashion, as though August was some pupil that dared to question his better's teaching. Get over yourself; what he said was and is true. You do rely on a scant handful of sources. And this is an English language forum.

[Oberon]

EDIT: Hahaha forum autocensor.

:haha: Baka.

Still, one good thing I've noticed. Neal has fixed the forum, and although Haze Laze Blue or whatever it was colour scheme has gone, non-english symbols have returned!

So I can

こ
の
よ
う
な
タ
イ
プ

[Skybird]

This is another reason that you and I have problems, Skybird. August addressed your points. Instead of addressing them, you go and post in a dismissive fashion,
#27

-> #28

Who is dismissive towards whom here? Who "adresses points" and explains in good faith why and what he does? And gets what in return?

[Takeda Shingen]

#27

-> #28

Who is dismissive towards whom here? Who "adresses points" and explains in good faith why and what he does? And gets what in return?

He argued that you misrepresented his view. What is wrong with that? He then went on to answer the rest of your post. What he got in return was an image macro. C'mon man, you're smart enough to do better than that.

[Hottentot]

Sigh. Okay, at least we tried, right Dowly?

Может по-русски было бы лучше?

[Takeda Shingen]

You really can't solve problems with non sequiturs. Sometimes you just have to talk it out.

[Hottentot]

Fish. :D

But seriously speaking, fair enough. In this case I just think it has been tried in the past already and doubt it will make a difference. But props for having more patience than I do.

[Dowly]

Sigh. Okay, at least we tried, right Dowly?

Dont worry, we'll just try again some other time. And again.. and again..
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x462/Dowly/pinkybrain.jpg

[Skybird]

He argued that you misrepresented his view. What is wrong with that? He then went on to answer the rest of your post. What he got in return was an image macro. C'mon man, you're smart enough to do better than that.
I am even smart enough to not buy subliminal aggression - or opportunistically enacted naivety used afterwards to defend it.

[Takeda Shingen]

I am even smart enough to not buy subliminal aggression - or opportunistically enacted naivety used afterwards to defend it.

Right. Because disagreement with you can only be explained by naivety. And once again we're back to square one. This is why I treat you the way I treat you; because it is how you treat everybody else. You didn't always used to be this way, but over the past two years or so you have really undergone this descent, and as you have done it you have become increasingly contemptuous of anyone and everyone that disagrees with you. The end result is that you have become an individual that is far more obessesive and far less pleasant.

I wish that you could see it, because I used to respect you, but I somehow don't think that you will. Instead you'll pass it off on my lack of intelligence, or my deceptiveness, or my naivety or whatever term you feel like slapping me with as though I am some insolent child.

[August]

For what it's worth I was not trying to be aggressive or "fake naivety". I just asked a simple question as why he feels it must be either Der Spiegel or German language articles rather than any one of a number of non German English speaking articles.

If I happen to find something on say Fox news for example I always try and back it up from another source. I do this not because I think Fox is any less accurate than the other news organizations but because i'd rather have the discussion be on the subject of the article rather than the bias of the writer.