The wrong education

[Skybird]

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/the_wrong_kind_of_education/


That is because today’s graduates are brought up and educated to believe that their imagined intellectual brilliance and personal exceptionality will make up for everything else they are lacking. It’s the result of an education system that confers degrees and qualifications on young people without teaching them anything that would actually make them employable: knowledge, work ethics and some basic business skills.

To be clear, this is not a New Zealand problem. When I recruited for policy researchers in my previous jobs at think tanks in the UK and Australia, I encountered the same issues. Colleagues in Germany tell me they are experiencing the same problems.
(...)
What is even more disturbing about these candidates is that their marks are usually very good. I have even interviewed economics PhDs who couldn’t name a single famous economist and who were blissfully unaware of any economic policy discussions.

lt is equally troubling that candidates’ lack of knowledge inversely correlates with their self-confidence. Cover letters, sometimes stretching over several pages, boast about the candidates’ “very unique [sic]” attributes, and their ability “to think outside the box.” To be blunt, I sometimes wish they could at least think within the box before trying to venture anywhere else. Apart from that, proper grammar and orthography would be a plus but seem to be optional.
(...)
Having to constantly endure these theoretically intelligent and well qualified, but unknowledgeable and underwhelming interviewees, it makes me wonder what has happened in education – primary, secondary, and tertiary – to produce this calibre of candidates.

It seems to have become fashionable to cotton-wool students at school and university. Teaching is no longer primarily about conveying knowledge but encouraging students to develop it themselves. The role of the teacher is no longer as an instructor but rather as a moderator or facilitator.
(...)
At the same time that basic standards in core competencies such as reading, writing and maths decline, grades have bizarrely improved. Again, this is a phenomenon in many developed countries. As a result, one German university now only accepts students for medicine with the best possible school leaving qualification. More and more students achieve what was previously regarded as outstanding and exceptional marks.

Despite this grade inflation across the developed world, Western students are now outclassed by a large margin in the OECD’s PISA assessment by students from China, Singapore and Hong Kong. In maths, sciences, and reading these students leave their Western contemporaries far behind. Perhaps this is because of a greater emphasis in their cultures on hard work, precision and preparation that the West has lost?

[Takeda Shingen]

:haha:

Another pundit that thinks the answer to education is just work harder. If it was that easy we would have solved things long ago.

Oh and yes, the proper role of the educator at any level is that of facilitator. The sage on the stage who enters the hall at 10, walks to the lectern, opens his notebook, begins reading aloud until 1, closes his notebook and walks out of the hall is an example of the very worst type of educator you can have. A real teacher facilitates learning; he does not dictate it.

[Skybird]

That simple he said things not. But you sound as if he has hit the right nerve.

Over here, there is an inflation of good grades for sure. Better notes for same performance, or same notes for lower performance - that was Germany's reaction to early PISA tests. But more and more students entering university do not meet the minimum needs in maths. Same is true for lower schools, releasing kids that cannot be employed in companies for craftsman jobs without even giving them basic training in correct writing, and elementary math. Heck, that at least is the minimum what they should bring from school, the absolute minimum!

Instead we have had an invasion of "feel good" pedagogues since the lat 60s and early 70s, and the dogma of what in Germany is called "Reformpädagogik", oh I love it so very very much. No longer are standards used to assess the performance of students, but their own judgement has become the standard, their own action experience of how they perceived the process of learning (or not learning) was for them. And when no longer general standards are used to assess performance and skill, but just the subjective self-perception of the performer, the result of such learning successes all too often is called by the name "dilettantism". Not his real skills and abilities, but just what he wants to be in his dreams becomes the standard by which he assesses himself. And that is the prototype of the ideal person for the modern funf-fun-fun society. The dilettant is the hero of the modern present. Politics, banking, economics, opinion-formers, TV talkshow masters - they all have nothing to say and are highly successful by that, or they even do plenty of damage, that like in a fairy tale does not hinder them to boast with it, because external standards are not to which they compare themselves to, but just their own subjective feeling of how they imagine they are. You must not be a skilled, qualified master of your profession anymore: just to imagine that yoiu already are, today is good enough and makes you boasting with how great you are.

No Takeda, your acid reply means little here, the man has it just right. Experiencing oneself and the flow and that grades should not be evertyhing, all that is nice and well, but one thing nobody at schools today likes to get reminded of: the need for discipline. And discipline shows not when the kids learn things that they take interest in anyway, because never had a kid to be told to do what it likes to do anyway. Discipline shows when it sticks to the effort of learning something even when it is not interesting, and is not easy, a problem that does not just collapse under the first eruption of esprit and problem-solving, but takes more time to master. But if this is being talked of, one immediately gets called an "authoritative" backward-oriented drill instructor who damages tender soft children-souls and damages unfolding intellects by overloading them too carelessly. Hahaha. I wonder where the growing number of students who cannot master the four basic calculations in maths and cannot read fluid and cannot write without revealing a discouraging incompetence in grammar, expression and orthography, are coming from, if the new teaching models are so nice and well!? For the German industry, it is a problem, and it costs it money: real, solid money, and much of it. At the same time, really talented, intelligent children get pushed under the wheels and get rolled over as well, for the low standards do not lead them to ever needing to show real endavour and skill, since doing less already is enough to solve excercises and problems and get plenty of appreciations and compliments, and so they get used to problems disappearing before them without them needing to really fight for that. They never learn how to learn. The result is showing a bit later: an extremely low frustration tolerance, followed by a lowering of intrinsic standards to adapt them to the new lower performance level of theirs, and voila: they claim to be fantastic again, because they cope with their frustration by lowering their standards by which they judge themselves. And so, step by step, the self-perception sooner or later hits the ceiling and the boasting knows no limits - while the real skill levels knock at the door to the basement. That is dilettantism in its purest form: when not the real competence and skill and performance counts for a grade or an assessment, but just the imagination of onself that one is great. I must not be competent, it is enough if I just imagine that I am competent. Greetings from Deutschland sucht den Superstar (DSDS), and American Idol - easy-peasy fame for free! The dilettant of today not only knows no shame, but he is a real exhibitionist for sure and even founds a career on his inability. And the others make him a hero for a day.

[Takeda Shingen]

That simple he said things not. But you sound as if he has hit the right nerve.

Over here, there is an inflation of good grades for sure. Better notes for same performance, or same notes for lower performance - that was Germany's reaction to early PISA tests. But more and more students entering university do not meet the minimum needs in maths. Same is true for lower schools, releasing kids that cannot be employed in companies for craftsman jobs without even giving them basic training in correct writing, and elementary math. Heck, that at least is the minimum what they should bring from school, the absolute minimum!

Why are all these students entering these universities? Why are they being retained when they are not passing muster? When you can answer those questions, dear Skybird, you may begin to understand what the problem is. I see the problem first hand every day, dear sweet Skybird. It is not a blog post to me, precious Skybird. It is not an angry rant on an internet forum, beloved Skybird. It is what I deal with every day.

I would suggest some reflection on the subject rather than your typical knee-jerk ranting. Until then, you continue to spit in the wrong direction while congratulating yourself for your brilliance; much like this blogger and countless politicans across the globe. And all the while the system continues to fail.

[Skybird]

My brilliance fades beside yours, dear Takeda.

[Takeda Shingen]

My brilliance fades beside yours, dear Takeda.

It does, but do you have answers to the questions I posted? I know what the answer are, but I want to see if you do, or if you are just spewing hot air on this matter.

[kiwi_2005]

The best education system i am told that NZ need to follow comes from Finland. But our Govt wants nothing of it.:nope:

[Takeda Shingen]

The best education system i am told that NZ need to follow comes from Finland. But our Govt wants nothing of it.:nope:

Finland does it right, especially when it comes to things like tuition.

That's the only hint I'll give. :)

EDIT: By the way, I am not picking on New Zealand. We have exactly the same problems stateside.

[kiwi_2005]

Finland does it right, especially when it comes to things like tuition.

That's the only hint I'll give. :)

EDIT: By the way, I am not picking on New Zealand. We have exactly the same problems stateside.

that never entered my mind mate. The tumor out i don't get paranoid anymore, i believe they took out the important part :haha:

[Skybird]

Takeda, instead of staging one of your shows again to prove what a clever Dick you are and how clever your talking strategy is to lure the other on thin ice, would it be asked too much of you if you just say in plain words what you have to reply to the article. Could this be done? So far you just attacked me again by your underhanded, poisonous tone from your second reply on (don't try to deny it, we both know that you meant it as a personal volley), and illustrated the amount of your haughtiness, but on the topic you left it to ranting and vague hints in the hope the others - me - would start to dance and jump through firewheels when you blow the whistle. I think I would not be the only one appreciating it if instead of making a show you just would give your arguments - and resulting opinion from these - and leave it to that.

Why I support the view of the article? Because it is not the first time I read that, and more important, because I get feedback supporting these complaints from - let'S see: my best friend is teacher. Another more distant buddy of mine is teacher. My grandfather was teacher. The husband of a close girlfriend of mine is teacher, and her sister is teacher, and two friends of my parents are/were teachers. And my diploma paper was about motivation and approaches to different working styles of economists, psychologists and - teachers. And finally we have the studies being done on the effectiveness, or lack of, of the German schools, which currently is a scene of chaos that is unique in the Western world, as far as I know, due to too many reforms overlapping each other, and partially being reversed again, or only partially implemented, and not just in every state but in every city things are being done slightly different. One thing is clear from the statistical evaluations over the past twenty years: there is too much ideological experimenting, grades went up, but competences in reading, writing and maths, also history, declined - in ALL school models that we have, though in the schools at the lower end of the scale more, and at the better schools (Gymnasiums) less. At the same time, the shortening of schoolyears at Gymnasiums caused more stress on the kids because the old plans of what had to be learned were not cleaned up, but left as they were and then got additional stuff added to them. More stuff in shorter time. With fewer teachers. And more problematic class mixtures in regions with higher migration quotas. Not good.

And this I combine with and link to some more, other books, about the psychology of learning, the pedagogic movement and its forerunners in late 19th century, plus the occasional media input on politics and employers complaining that they must spend more and more money to teach the young people who come from school in even basic math and writing/reading, like the article I linked also complains about (and which btw is not a blog contribution, but a reprint of a NZL newspaper essay). It is an open secret that grades at universities in Europe have seen an inflation in higher grades, and that things have become worse due to the Barcelona process, because friendly professors do not wish to throw sticks between graduates' legs by giving them the grades they deserve - instead they give the grades that are needed, very often. I profiteered from that, too, receiving a final note of 1.2, but I am honest enough to say that that means nothing and that may performances in final exams and the diploma paper all in all were more a 2.5, imo - but one score step you get rewarded extra if it is the final exam. Is it justified by the candidates' performance? No, it is not. The result is that employers with experience simply do not look at notes anymore, because they do not mean much anymore. Is that what things should be like? Why having notes at all, then? Qualifications - is that a thing of the past maybe? :88) In the world of the dilettante, yes. Because as I earlier said: for the dilettante not his skill is what defines his competence, but what he wants to be capable of defines how he sees himself. Its all around us. If you do not believe what I say, open your eyes. Its all around us, everywhere. Happens in the jobs. In schools, in TV shows. The dilettante is the hero of the modern present. Especially when you have cable TV.

The problem I see resulting from

a.) unfit study programs transporting too much praxis-irrelevant stuff in medicine, psychology, too much stuff of outdated or questionable scientific value in social sciences, and too much ideologically motivated stuff in social sciences and education sciences;

and b.) there is a movement away from the old Humboldt ideal of what university education should be about: giving a view on things beyond the rim of one'S own discipline, and there is a trend towards pure economic need and pragmatism, in other words: a reductionist focussing and specialising. Not the Why is being cared for that much anymore, but the How, and the How should financially pay of as fast as possible and lead to products ready to sell. Education, knowledge, insight as a value justifying itself - I fear that is currently an endangered view on things. - This - what I listed under b.) - is effecting economic studies, obviously, but also the hardcore natural sciences physics, chemistry, in parts also biology. Engineering and IT anyway.

How worse it is becoming with university entry tests, the example from Vienna shows that I have quoted in other threads, where for ideological reasons they even tried to lower the needed scores for female candidates - to artificially push the quota of girls studying medicine, which meant that better scoring male candidates were thrown out and males in general have to score better notes to qualify, than girls. By tendency, this is slowly creeping on in most of Europe. In Vienna, students went to the courts, and the university had to annule the procedure - for the moment. Things like this are being tried in most of europe, however. The quote-female has turned into a predatory specimen. And often without women wanting that.

This is why the general niveau of university candidates entering the job arena after having finished university, is declining, like the original article states. But it must be combined with the introductory story of the school education before university, and that is what I have tried to summarize in a previous post, though rough and maybe not complete. I cannot help it, I have several teachers in my social environment, and although they partially like the ideology behind the development and partially do not like it, they all agree that the things I tried to describe here nevertheless take place: they see it in their own daily practice, they say. What I said about low frustration tolerance and the like, and what it does with a child when it does not learn how to learn and lacks a certain minimum of discipline at school and the teacher does not act as a teacher fostering this to some degree, also results from feedback I get from teachers, but also book input, and some basic psychological knowledge and conclusions from that.

You must not see it like this, Takeda. But you did not reply to the article, you just sneered from a high haugthy altitude and gave a hint that you know it better - without saying why and what your arguments are, and you scoff at the author, and left it to that and then, after I explained my own views on schools, in reply you switched to your incredibly friendly, heartwarming tone. But you repeatedly (in the past, together with some others) complained about my claimed "arrogance" and "lecturing" - while you play these parental word lecture games of yours, and not for the first time!? :doh:

But I am not one of your students, and I do not depend on getting scores from you. So shove your demonstrations where the sun does not shine. Either you have an argument your different opinion is founding on, or you have not. Playing your underhanded games is something I am really very very very tired of, also the wrong words put in my mouth on past occasions, and the intentional misquoting, and ripping my quotes out of context to give them another meaning - I received your treatement several times, and I saw you treating others whose opinions you did not like in the same way (yubba having been the latest example. This is not to say that I agree with yubba that much, however, but I just identify a behaviour pattern), and that's why I tell you: put some space between yourself and me.

Now feel free to explain why you think the author of the original article is wrong, and give your argument(s). Or let it be. Everything else - is just distraction.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Too long , did not read...

In our country we are now no more grading, but "evaluating" students, not attributing notes from 0-60 (worst/best) but having tons of papers with small boxes that need checkmarks for every skill demonstrated.

o can copy text
o can paste text
o can format text
o can insert graphics into document
o knows appropriate graphics formats to keep filesize small
(...)
o can hook up VGA monitor
o can hook up VGA monitor on DVI connector

and yes, i have seen Dudes that had Masters fail at basic french conjugation, red arrogant letters by guys just out of school that made me both laugh and cry.
All in all...
I also feel an erosion in the education taking place.
That is not to piss on others, for i am one of the mentioned "craftsmen", never been inside a Tertiar school whatsoever, except for an emergency dump at the 'loo.

I am not one to find answers myself by using my IQ, combined with trial and error, i believe in proper guidance in the basic skills along with a lot of effort and mistakes, application of the basic skills in the workshop.

I believe good explanations to make more complex matters understandable are needed, and that, after application of the knowledge, the gained understanding must be questioned to ensure the concept has passed to the trainee.

So the question for me is not what is wrong with some systems.
there seems to be sucky education everywhere.

The question is: How do the Northerners do better in teaching, preparing and evaluating their Kids, Teenagers and Youngsters?

[Tribesman]

Takeda, instead of staging one of your shows again to prove what a clever Dick you are and how clever your talking strategy is to lure the other on thin ice, would it be asked too much of you if you just say in plain words what you have to reply to the article. Could this be done? So far you just attacked me again by your underhanded, poisonous tone from your second reply on (don't try to deny it, we both know that you meant it as a personal volley), and illustrated the amount of your haughtiness, but on the topic you left it to ranting and vague hints in the hope the others - me - would start to dance and jump through firewheels when you blow the whistle. I think I would not be the only one appreciating it if instead of making a show you just would give your arguments - and resulting opinion from these - and leave it to that.

Have I hacked Takedas account and Steve hijacked Skybirds?:rotfl2:

[Wolferz]

Some interesting diatribes describing the current downward shift in the educational paradigm in so called developed countries of the world.
And some spewing of testosterone to go with it.
I will attempt to boil it down to the common misconception of learning by rote and ultimately retaining any of it for a life time in a career.
Ahem, Class. You may leave the lecture as soon as you turn your recording device on. Then, the student gets a tape full of droning with no context to be found.
A brilliant instructor of mine once told us; "It's not about what you know. It's about knowing how to find the information you need at the time that you need it." Most teachers, professors or educators in general do not challenge the minds of the young to seek the answers. Instead they blather on about the subject they specialize in, with no connectivity to anything else. Basically, they only teach linear thinking for the purpose of turning a young mind into a worker bee. A consumer. A pliable mass of putty to be shaped by its environment. Something that can easily be controlled by its superiors.
The young people today are spoiled by instant gratification that requires no work or perserverance.

Welcome to the idiocracy. The matrix has you.:know:

[u crank]

Welcome to the idiocracy. The matrix has you.:know:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTtG4AMgk3Z2clstfdYYwyVPffKYNb-0-Oo0AamM9BTuGX0S0XmSg

[Wolferz]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTtG4AMgk3Z2clstfdYYwyVPffKYNb-0-Oo0AamM9BTuGX0S0XmSg
I snatched the red one as soon as I learned that my teachers were full of crap up to their eyeballs and the rest was sawdust.


I never let my schooling get in the way of my education....Mark Twain

[Skybird]

Some months ago, there was this video by a school teacher from the US who adressed the students who finished school, warning them to consider themselves to be something special already, because in the reality of the job world following, they are nothing special at all, but one ant amongst millions. It was greeted with much applause, if I recall correctly, and the appreciation Americans spend to this made it into the international news.

Wolferz,

in principle I agree with "know where to find the info when you need it", however, you also need a fundament that is non-negotiable and that you can base on freely and in virtuoso any time, always. The job world and way of lives have changed, much of what you learn you just learn to unlearn it again just short time later, and I think this is not always and is not in all regard a good thing. I link psychological syndromes to this modern way of life, too, not completely, but it is an involved variable (psychology is submitted to changing vogues, too, and is much lesser a solid science than its followers are ready to see - plenty of ideology there, too, for historical reasons...). There is much unrest, stress from too much acceleration of everything, and that produces condensates in "the soul" where you feel them.

The Finnish system is better in intenrational conmparison, mainly for two reasons. The passing of the children through the school system is more focussed on facilitating than on screening/filtering regarding this opposition of facilitating versus screening Takeda propaby is right when promoting the first; second is that they have smaller clases and more teachers in Finland than for example in Germany. Two years ago, classes still were bigger here, and the idea to have two, sometimes even three teachers in one class (one doing the main lecture, the assistants taking every kid by the hand when it meets problems and practicing with it until it understands it, without the whole class needing to wait for the "straggler") may be sound, but is unpracticable due to the immense higher costs - we currently reduce the number of teachers again, I think although even for our standards we currently have too few in many regions. It's all about the money. However, just facilitating is not enough if not also patience and discipline is facilitated for. Discipline is the practice that enables you to even practice the earlier ideal of "knowing where to find the solution".

Let me compare to my chess club back then. I was club player in the years around the end of my schoolyears, and a bit after that, before I switched to correspondence chess. We young wilde ones were motivated enough, nobody had to facilitaed us to learn theory and come to the regular theory trainings - if it was about what we liked to play anyway, that is ches sopening, and middle game strategy and tactics. Now, for some reason that most chess players even cannot explain, the end game is much disliked by many players. Maybe it is because here the long variations, the really in depth-analysis is the most unforgiving and the error margin is smaller, since there is just small amounts of material left on the board, and any error, any figure loss is much harder to compensate. To make a complex issue short: we hated end games, most players dislike endgames, and I still do so - although mastering endgame is the decisive art in chess, is essential and separates those playing just noise from those really understanding the game in depth. Facilitating does not help here, it remains "boring" to learn endgame theory. The only thing that helps you is: stubbornness, patience, and - discipline. To keep coming back to it, to carry on with it, no matter what. It was one of the two reasons why I started correspondence chess. End game theory is difficult, it is "dry", and it lacks the spectacular battles and and sensational special effects of furious tactical exchanges. But it is a must. Else you lose an equal position from middle game in the end game, or you are unable to translate an advantage from the middle game into city in the endgame. The answer to that need is simple: DRILL. Its the only thing that works, once you are on difficult terrain that does not find your interest. Drill means the discipline to nevertheless move on, carry on, repeat it, stick to it, sink your will, and teeth and mind into it. And here, fascilitating may still have some place, but in such phases has much, much lesser justifiction. When it does not interest you, then it does not interest you.

I could say the same on my martial arts and my combat and my swords training training, which was extremely repetitive, not to mention that it was every day, and for long time. The motive to stick to it was love for my mentor, and deep trust. But the gasoline that kept the engine running, no matter cold or hot weather, was this: discipline, drill. Obviously, drill in the military has other meanings and is more appropriate, than in school learning, and civilian life. But I stick to it: to some degree, drill and discipline are needed, you do not get far without them, nor can you become independant in your skill to find solutions to new problems.

Gustav,

I have a principle issue with multiple choice questionaires. That is they take you by the hand and lead you through a pre-established structure of possible problem solving "strategies". You do not learn to imagine the view or design or nature of a possible solution. You do not learn to think "outside the box" of prefabricated answers. Quite the opposite, you learn how to depend on a limited number of options presented, whose origin you must not understand or be able to analyse. You learn to function like a robot following the flow diagram of a program scheme. You function, but you cannot break out of the software code, the flow diagram.

Consequently, I am cautioning people to put blind trust into electronic learning and computer learning. A computer runs by software that already has filtered the reality that you are able to manipulate via the interface. You must bow to the needs of the interfaces syntax, you must learn to unlearn ways in which you would do things in real life but cannot in a computer . You win some freedom degrees due to the global connectivity, but you loose others due to the need to accept self-limitation, unavoidably. the machine is not so much becoming a part of you. You become part of the scripts and principles by which the machine runs. I do not demonise it, and I do not want to ban it, but I am irritated by the blind, headless trust and uncritical attitude to all this. Not to mention the dependency on communication satellites never failing, no ESM pulse from space knocking the IT network out, and so on. Show computers their place and there keep them on y chain, make sure they do not leave it, else we sooner or later all become slaves of theirs. Not in the way Terminator shows it. But by the way we are able - and no longer are able!!! - to think inside our biological brains.

[Skybird]

For the sake of completeness, one should remind of one fact: the PISA studies beside expected confirmations have also produced some very counter-intuitive and self-contradicting data on several countries and especially Finland, too, its just that you need to dig that out in the web, because the mainstream media do not bring it up: their job is to sell the Finnish model as the holy grail, not to scratch its painting. For example I remember that numbers for Finland show the greatest gender disparity in Finland amongst all european states, with girls outclassing boys by some very hefty margin. Also, I recall by memory, it still is unexplained why a PISA study was not able to confirm the thesis for Finland that high interest in reading correlates with high competence in reading - PISA delivered numbers once that indicated that there is no link between both variables.

So, either with the PISA methods or with the Finnish system or with both, not everything may be like it seems. Could also indicate a favouring of female gender at the cost of the male students.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I hated just that when i took my cisco courses - all test were based on choices checkboxes and such.

for the entry skills at school that may be appropriate.
But the first time you are outside the Lab, and trying the same thing at gome with different hardware and software, you are SOOO FFF.

It currently torpedoes me every time i have to underatsnd a customer's Network setup on the phone.

The Customer, no matter if man or woman, or elderly person of any gender describes me the setup, i can fill in sime blanks.
I know the basics. I know from drill (2 years... not so long) how things should be.
But they are not.

IT, on my level has turned from a flowchart into a Caleidoscope.
Drill and repeating helped me blindly do the basics.
However, elements like
"keep at it, get back to it, try again and again and again, till you solve the puzzle"
can not be practiced at work, as i have 5 minutes per customer.

Putting the finger on the problem(s) of hardware, software, within 300 seconds is an impossible task.

It is like being given a Chess board in mid-game, and figure out a victory in a ridiculously limited amount of time.
and if you fail, you get a next try - but the game board is a different one.

I would say it is very, very hard to prepare people for the Productive world of today.

and i think It will become more and more important to Pimp up the Student's mental capacity, the algorythms and functioning methods, their CPU and RAM, instead of ONLY loading their Hard drives full of History and theory articles.

WTFFFFF! do i remember of that bastard french teacher that banged me with the finer points of french participe passé.:/\\!!
Or that Alcoholic Biology teacher that expected a mental copypaste of an Article on how the Human lung works.
:nope:

Neither memorizing the Data nor the principle of repetition, following a mental chart has helped me beyond School.
Because School is one thing, and the job is an entirely different Beast.

The only thing that remains is:

Whatever you fail to do now, do not despair, all your failures will make you better - if you put all your mind and muscle to it.

I slowly see how that applies.

[Takeda Shingen]

Save your lecture, Skybird. I am not impressed. Very well, I will hold your hand through it.

The problem with higher education in countries like New Zealand and the United States is very simple. Colleges and universities have been run on the business model for about 60 years now. Tuition is life. As schools have begun to see the benefits of increased revenue, the floodgates opened and college enrollment skyrocketed across the board. The end result is that tertiary education has become an industry first and a tool for societal progress and benefit second.

I teach at a rather well-respected university. Even there, each year I see an increasing number of students coming into my classroom who are ill prepared for the academic rigors of school (which have not changed at all Skybird, sorry to ruin your narrative). I sit on the audition pannels, and we are shall we say 'encouraged' to accept certain quotas of students. That quota is not gender-based, race-based or ethnicity-based. It is simply a number. The university wants X number of butts in the seats for the fall semester. The end results is having students in the university that should not be in the university.

So what's the big deal? Just fail them, right? Not quite. Once they are there, the university wants to keep them there. Having a high turnover is bad for PR, as you can't claim that 'X% of our students graduate and move on to careers in their field' in your commercials. So, once again, the professor is 'encouraged' pass students who shouldn't pass. It is the bane of my existence; the last week of every semester results in a rather uncomfortable confrontation between myself and the Provost's office. See, I refuse to play ball, and I fail students that deserve to fail. I have my tenure, so the university cannot dismiss me for it. Granted, I will never be a department chair, but I am fine with that. I stand on principle.

This problem has trickled both up and down. Postgraduate programs, as your blogger hero has noted, suddenly 'producing' an increasing number of students that do not cut the mustard. Yet, the quality of the programs themselves have not changed, it is simply that universities have begun cashing in there as well. For pre-undergraduate affairs, an entire industry has sprung up around getting your child into the college of their choice. Aside from the obvious sham that the SATs have become, one can hire tutors and agencies to coach the child through the entire application process -- what to say, where to say it, how to write it, etc.

So what does Finland do better? Simple, their university system is not privatized. The industry does not exist there. Students are admitted based on a single test, not an interview, not an essay, not any of the things that allow for a flood of new students. It is about education, not money. Contrast this to what happens stateside. Schools are constantly expanding and constructing new buildings. And what are they constructing? New lecture halls? No, dorms. Go figure.

It is the elephant in the room, the answer is so obvious, but no one wants to talk about it. The reasons are various. For many politicans in my country, acknowleding this problem ruins the narrative that privatization is the answer to everything. For individuals such as your blogger hero and yourself, it ruins your opportunity to project your pet peves into the mix; in this case, political correctness, gender equality and multiculturalism. Such projection does not address the real and dangerous problem, and that is why you, Skybird, and your blogger hero have earned my scorn. You play a dangerous and destructive game to advance your political agenda at the expense of the system of education.

[Wolferz]

Takeda, you sir, have banged the nail on the head.
"In everything it's all about the Benjamins
It's become a disjointed Orwellian dystopia. Depending on the assembly line education. Not only depending on it, but also expecting it.
There are too many school boards, responsible for primary, middle and high school education that don't encourage preperation for the real world in their curriculums. Instead they take the lazy, cheap way out by using standardized vocational testing to pigeon hole the children into job specific training slots and that's the curriculum they provide. Similar to the U S military method. One fortunate reality is they do still teach fundamental reading, writing and math. Only problem is the assembly line doesn't tolerate delays if one child is too slow to accept the basic programming and he is sent on up the line to remain with his age group. Tough Tacos kid, you should have applied yourself.
So, if one does some digging do you eventually find the treasure or come out on the other side with nothing but a hole? I feel like there are puppets in the high places of power that are molding it all with impetus on making money for the puppet masters. That, if true is so fundamentally wrong it's laughable.
Stick to your guns Tak. Provost office be damned.

[Hottentot]

So what does Finland do better? Simple, their university system is not privatized. The industry does not exist there.

Yet the universities get money based on the number of graduates, which leads to the grading system being pretty lax. The only time I have ever heard someone failing a course (bar some simple exams on certain books that are done just for the credits) was when a person from my seminar group turned in a 10 pages long essay filled with lots of personal feelings and plans on what should be done on the actual seminar thesis, whereas it was supposed to be approximately 40 pages of scientific research and the very last step before the master's thesis.

But otherwise? Sure, these days they say that you have to graduate in 7 years (the goal is 5, the average is somewhere between 5 and 6), but if you won't? Just go cry the powers-that-be a river, and they will give you more time simply because they won't admit having wasted 7 years on you for nothing.

I'm not saying we have it easy. Having quite a lot of experience from working with university students from various other countries, I'd say we are doing pretty well. They have agreed on that as well (and in fact been a lot more ardent about it than I am). But money certainly talks nevertheless.


Students are admitted based on a single test, not an interview, not an essay, not any of the things that allow for a flood of new students.Not entirely true. You can also, in some cases, be admitted based on your grades in the matriculation exam alone or have those grades help you along with good test score. It depends on school. My history department, at least when I applied, took 20 based on the test and another 20 based on the test and the matriculation exam. I had pretty good grades, above average, but I wasn't even considered to the latter quota.

And for the record, when I applied, there were approximately 450 applicants. I thought that was hard. In fact I had it easy: for some programmes there can be over 2,000 applicants from which 66 are selected.

[Skybird]

Takeda, now take your first post #2, your latest reply #19, and then compare that to the article by Hartwich, the full original one. And then explain to me what your anger and your privatization argument has to do with that article's content.

:doh:

Next time skip the part with the cryptic hints and mysterious allusions, and just set up a post with your plain argument and points, and skip the comedy wrap around it. The result with be immediate. People will know what you want so say, people will know why you think what you say, people will not become increasingly irritated and angered.

Oh, and leaving out the personal sidekicks would be deeply appreciated.

And on Hartwich, maybe not the messiah to save the world, but probably slightly more than just my "blogger hero". I occasionally read him on the German site that I first linked and where he got reprinted, the original publishing was in a NZ newspaper. His articles to me makes sense, usually. He is no neocon or conservative by American standards, but a liberal by European standards, which probably means libertarian by American standards.

He just reported on his experiences in job interviews. If only I knew what your problem was. Next time, just say it, instead of sending people around circles, hunting wild guesses and assumptions about your motives.

[Takeda Shingen]

Not entirely true. You can also, in some cases, be admitted based on your grades in the matriculation exam alone or have those grades help you along with good test score. It depends on school. My history department, at least when I applied, took 20 based on the test and another 20 based on the test and the matriculation exam. I had pretty good grades, above average, but I wasn't even considered to the latter quota.

Aside from the test(s), are there any other non-quantative criteria? Here in the 'states we have those in the form of persuasive essays, interviews, portfolios, etc. What I have read indicates that Finland does not use such things, but you would be a more authoratative source, seeing as you are there and have gone through it.''

Next time, just say it, instead of sending people around circles, hunting wild guesses and assumptions about your motives.

And here we have the crux of the problem bewteen you and I. I shouldn't have to say it; you should argue honestly from the start. That is what elicits my contempt.

Skybird, stop playing games. The blogger complains that the quality of students coming from postgraduate education is of diminishing quality. This is true. However, those are the symptoms of the disease. I have offered the disease itself. Correct it, and your blogger's complaints vanish. To quote from the blogger himself:

Having to constantly endure these theoretically intelligent and well qualified, but unknowledgeable and underwhelming interviewees, it makes me wonder what has happened in education – primary, secondary, and tertiary – to produce this calibre of candidates.

This is what happened: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2006732&postcount=19

It cannot be more clear and obvious. Oh, and I'm not angry, Skybird. You all have never seen me angry.

[Hottentot]

Aside from the test(s), are there any other non-quantative criteria? Here in the 'states we have those in the form of persuasive essays, interviews, portfolios, etc. What I have read indicates that Finland does not use such things, but you would be a more authoratative source, seeing as you are there and have gone through it.

It depends on the school. There is an interview in some programmes as far as I know. In those of theatre and the elementary school teacher at least, both being some of the more difficult ones to get in. Whereas the constant reason for wondering is why the doctor programmes don't have one, when it's still an education tailored for such an employment.

But on the other hand we don't need letters of recommendation or other such stuff. We apply on our own and see where it goes, one way or another.

It might be worth noting also that when in the university, you might still need to apply for something every now and then and then the requirements might vary. I have had to do it twice. First to get in the museum studies I had to write a CV and a letter detailing why I want to include these studies in my degree. It wasn't just a formality: 40 applied, 20 were taken. And last spring when I applied for the teacher studies, I had to both provide a similar letter as well as to participate in both group- and personal interview. That, on the other hand, was a formality: there weren't enough applicants, so everyone was accepted. But I obviously didn't know it back then. :)

If you ever happen to get lost in Finland (any possible divine entity help you), I'd be glad to show you around our school system. I have a few contacts here and there.

[Takeda Shingen]

It depends on the school. There is an interview in some programmes as far as I know. In those of theatre and the elementary school teacher at least, both being some of the more difficult ones to get in. Whereas the constant reason for wondering is why the doctor programmes don't have one, when it's still an education tailored for such an employment.

But on the other hand we don't need letters of recommendation or other such stuff. We apply on our own and see where it goes, one way or another.

It might be worth noting also that when in the university, you might still need to apply for something every now and then and then the requirements might vary. I have had to do it twice. First to get in the museum studies I had to write a CV and a letter detailing why I want to include these studies in my degree. It wasn't just a formality: 40 applied, 20 were taken. And last spring when I applied for the teacher studies, I had to both provide a similar letter as well as to participate in both group- and personal interview. That, on the other hand, was a formality: there weren't enough applicants, so everyone was accepted. But I obviously didn't know it back then. :)

Ah, okay. That would be somewhat similar to what happens stateside, but the process has really become a formality. Here, those students are getting in regardless.

If you ever happen to get lost in Finland (any possible divine entity help you), I'd be glad to show you around our school system. I have a few contacts here and there.

I likely will take you up on that sometime. :up:

[HundertzehnGustav]

Hey...
you assume Skybird knows the stuff behind the first page of the book.
he does not, many do not.

YOU on the other hand are inside that system, specific to your country.
you can provide us with some insight.

and those that do not have that insight, do not need to be talked to like children, or their hands held through a discussion.

remember, he does not knwo what he is talking about, and as such brings this article here to gather points of View from others.

It's like at the end of that initial post he asks "what is your experience and point of View on the matter?"

I found that with your hand holding you ridiculed him.
there is no need to. because he is trying to gain an understanding that he does not have.
Tries to
Get a clue about something he dont know squat about, and has an uninformed of MISinformed opinion about.

He rather ask you.

If you can not reply, and teach, without that smug, rolleye expression...
Then by all means do not.

Hm?

We are Noobs at the subject. Treat us as such.

[Takeda Shingen]

Hey...
you assume Skybird knows the stuff behind the first page of the book.
he does not, many do not.

YOU on the other hand are inside that system, specific to your country.
you can provide us with some insight.

and those that do not have that insight, do not need to be talked to like children, or their hands held through a discussion.

remember, he does not knwo what he is talking about, and as such brings this article here to gather points of View from others.

It's like at the end of that initial post he asks "what is your experience and point of View on the matter?"

I found that with your hand holding you ridiculed him.
there is no need to. because he is trying to gain an understanding that he does not have.
Tries to
Get a clue about something he dont know squat about, and has an uninformed of MISinformed opinion about.

He rather ask you.

If you can not reply, and teach, without that smug, rolleye expression...
Then by all means do not.

Hm?

We are Noobs at the subject. Treat us as such.

Since this is your first day on the forum, I'll explain to you that Skybird's entire argumentative style is completely fraudulent. It is based on the belief that he knows better that you, me and everybody else. It relies on ad hominems, circular logic and various other fallacies. He deals with people in a high-handed fashion and expect us to sit and listen as though he is the sage on the stage. All I did was give him a taste of his own medicine.

Now, if you can see past that, do you have anything to add?

[Hottentot]

I likely will take you up on that sometime. :up:

Great, me and my big mouth again. :haha:

Techically you don't even need me: since the teaching in most cases is public by the law, you can just contact any given school and ask if you can come to observe their classes. Or just go there and say you want to do it, I suppose that would still follow the idea of the law as well. Not many people do that, but it's your right.

I just can't resist participating in these discussions, since people from abroad have some really funny ideas about the Finnish education. And Finland in general too, as I have gently tried to point out to some of our exchange students trying to convince me that I'm living in the best country ever, not the other way around.

I'd say the thing we do right is not any single thing in the education system, but the mentality. It's not unique to us, but we take this idea of "lifelong education" pretty seriously. People are encouraged to keep up with the development, to go study even at older age and it's supported in many ways. I have often seen a lot of older folks sitting at the lectures right next to me. Some are doing the whole degree. So in that way it's not "graduate and get out". But it can't work if people don't really want it. If you ask me, the myth of "Finnish education" is based on that.

[Tchocky]

The Irish admissions system is quite a bit different to what you guys are describing.

Final exams in high school are taken on at least 7 subjects - with English, Irish & Maths being compulsory. You can take the subject exams at Ordinary or Higher difficulty levels. Grades go A1/A2/B1/B2/B3 and so on, with a certain number of points awarded for each grade depending on difficulty.

A Higher lever A1 is worth 100 points, an A2 worth 90, whereas an A1 grade on an Ordinary level paper is worth only 60 points and an Ordinary A2 worth 50.

For university application, points from your best 6 subjects are added together, giving you however many out of 600.

Every offered course in the country is ranked by supply of places and demand for those places. Higher-demand and low-availability courses such as Medicine or dentistry tend to have extremely high points requirements in or around the 590 mark. General Arts programs tend to require 400-ish.

This system gets a lot of flak for being cold and somewhat remorseless, but I certainly found it reasssuring when I went through it. You work hard, you get the course you want. No bloody interviews or personal statements.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Absolutely!

IF he knows everything, and really is the king of the Books, has an intimate knowledge of the subjects he starts to talk about, he is the freaking arrogant GOD.

Sort of:
He does not realize that he indeed does treat others like he is in a superior position, from the top down.
I (too) fail to see him as someone overly secure of his opinion, knowledge and convictions.
Maybe because i am using YOUR language instead of mine.
its not an excuse, but a fact - we hardly manage to convey the finer points and variations we wish to.

However.
you are a teacher.
If from your point of view he knows Squat...
Either teach and correct him with patience or sit and laugh at his ridicule and ignorance.

Or, let me put it in a more personal way (independent of what i think of Skybird, his posts and his Arguments):

Come on, you are better than THAT.:up:

After all he provides us with a very wide array of subjects to discuss...

[Takeda Shingen]

I just can't resist participating in these discussions, since people from abroad have some really funny ideas about the Finnish education. And Finland in general too, as I have gently tried to point out to some of our exchange students trying to convince me that I'm living in the best country ever, not the other way around.

I'm glad that you do participate in these discussions. You bring a lot of thought and sanity to this forum.

[HundertzehnGustav]

more even.
I bet, on a concious or unconcious level, the way he pokes a stick at people with his knowledge that might be interpreted as lacking and idiotic...

he does spawn some reactions.

With his big opening statements he gets the ball rolling.

and that is cool, for at the end of the thread, i have learned something even if i have not participated in the discussion.

:06:

[Takeda Shingen]

The Irish admissions system is quite a bit different to what you guys are describing.

Final exams in high school are taken on at least 7 subjects - with English, Irish & Maths being compulsory. You can take the subject exams at Ordinary or Higher difficulty levels. Grades go A1/A2/B1/B2/B3 and so on, with a certain number of points awarded for each grade depending on difficulty.

A Higher lever A1 is worth 100 points, an A2 worth 90, whereas an A1 grade on an Ordinary level paper is worth only 60 points and an Ordinary A2 worth 50.

For university application, points from your best 6 subjects are added together, giving you however many out of 600.

Every offered course in the country is ranked by supply of places and demand for those places. Higher-demand and low-availability courses such as Medicine or dentistry tend to have extremely high points requirements in or around the 590 mark. General Arts programs tend to require 400-ish.

This system gets a lot of flak for being cold and somewhat remorseless, but I certainly found it reasssuring when I went through it. You work hard, you get the course you want. No bloody interviews or personal statements.

And that sounds like it would be a massive step in the right direction for American schools. You get in if you score well enough to get in. No non-qual evaluations, no satellite schools, no industry.

[Takeda Shingen]

more even.
I bet, on a concious or unconcious level, the way he pokes a stick at people with his knowledge that might be interpreted as lacking and idiotic...

he does spawn some reactions.

With his big opening statements he gets the ball rolling.

and that is cool, for at the end of the thread, i have learned something even if i have not participated in the discussion.

:06:

If I post pornographic images I'll get a reaction. If I post a rant about Jews I'll get a reaction. If I post links to pirate websites I'll get a reaction.

A reaction is not always a good thing.

[Hottentot]

And that sounds like it would be a massive step in the right direction for American schools. You get in if you score well enough to get in. No non-qual evaluations, no satellite schools, no industry.

And no huge business of overpriced qualification test prepping courses which people pay an arm and leg for just to force themselves to actually read those test books even once and in some rare cases learn to write a half sensible essay. Though being literate doesn't always seem to be a requirement of getting in a Finnish university from what I have gathered, so perhaps they knew it before they participated in a course.

[Takeda Shingen]

And no huge business of overpriced qualification test prepping courses which people pay an arm and leg for just to force themselves to actually read those test books even once and in some rare cases learn to write a half sensible essay. Though being literate doesn't always seem to be a requirement of getting in a Finnish university from what I have gathered, so perhaps they knew it before they participated in a course.

Absolutely. The standard SAT prices at $50.00 US (foreigners get to pay $63.00 US). There are also a series of SAT prep books that range in cost from $10-$15 US, and even a practice SAT that you can take for $50.00 too.

When graduation comes around, and new teachers are looking to be certified, they get to take the PRAXIS series of tests. Depending on your content area, that will be between six and ten individual exams, which are priced at $85.00 US per test. Yes, per test. If you have to reschedule, you pay another $30.00 US. Scores are available digitally, but if you want an official paper copy of the scores, which all states require for certification, you can pay another $15.00 US processing fee per score.

Yeah, something's wrong with the program.

EDIT: Oh never mind, they've changed the prices. Not all tests are $85. Some are a whole lot more now. Check out the link for details:

http://www.ets.org/praxis/about/fees

The music exams are now up to $139.00 each, and you need all three of them for certification, in addition to the numerous general exams. Nice.

[HundertzehnGustav]

If I post pornographic images I'll get a reaction. If I post a rant about Jews I'll get a reaction. If I post links to pirate websites I'll get a reaction.

A reaction is not always a good thing.


I see what you mean, and i also understand you have gotten my message.
Good Job.

[HundertzehnGustav]

so if you are good enough, and do not have what it takes to get the test and paper you need to get a job...

Ur fudged.

and without these Certs your previous Graduation is useless because incomplete to become a teacher.


Therefor education is tied to money from A to Z.
...:huh:

seriously o_O

[Skybird]

And here we have the crux of the problem bewteen you and I. I shouldn't have to say it; you should argue honestly from the start. That is what elicits my contempt.

Skybird, stop playing games. The blogger complains that the quality of students coming from postgraduate education is of diminishing quality. This is true. However, those are the symptoms of the disease. I have offered the disease itself. Correct it, and your blogger's complaints vanish. To quote from the blogger himself:

Man, that is rich. You must be one of the most self-righteous people I ever stumbled over.

In your own words: before you lecture others to stop playing games and to argue honestly from the start, learn to follow your own advise.

[Oberon]

IIRC, and I may be wrong on this since it has been some time since I've sat an exam other than the odd H&S course, but the primary reason, or at least one of the primary reasons behind the multiple choice exam is that it is generally marked by computers. It's a bit like, in the UK, when you buy a lottery ticket, you ink the appropriate box and the machine scans it and inputs the numbers to print the ticket, and then you win sod all. There was once a time when teachers would use a see-through bit of paper with the wrong answers inked out and then overlay it on the paper to see what questions were answered incorrectly or correctly. I think these were on practice papers which are, IIRC, just copies of previous exams.

There's still a human element in it, I believe that the marking process is over-seen by a human factor, however otherwise I think it is mainly computer fed. Obviously there are still exams that require proper written answers or drawings, and there is also coursework, so that's not done by computers.

In regards to meeting quotas, I am reminded of last years GCSE English fiasco in which some students took the exam in January 2012 and some in June. When the results for the exams in January came through it was decided by the exam boards that too many students were going to get C or above and so they pushed the boundary up and there was a qualification gulf between those who took the exam in January and those who took it in June.

Here's a BBC link from the time:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20175633

So there are definitely 'quotas' there which the exam boards feel that they are under pressure to meet, errors in exam papers are not uncommon (my GCSE Geography paper came with an extra page correcting a question on it) but the 2012 fiasco was the first time they'd been caught out by it. Although there have been accusations over the years that exams are too easy because the government is pressuring the exam boards to maintain a good rate of grades to meet figures.

At the end of the day though, in the UK, grades are becoming increasingly meaningless, the job market has shrivelled, particularly in my local area, so University leavers find themselves stocking supermarket shelves. There has been, in recent years, an increase in moves towards bringing back apprenticeships and make education more practical towards engaging school and university leavers into the workplace instead of the jobcenter.
Unfortunately in any economic downturn it's the young and old who cop it first, the young can't get in, and the elderly get booted out and anyone else in the middle has to fight each other to get a job while the companies chortle with glee because they can treat their employees however they like because there will always be a replacement to fill the gap.

It's a bad situation, but we're in a recession, that's how it goes, you just have to hang on until the boom times return.

[Takeda Shingen]

so if you are good enough, and do not have what it takes to get the test and paper you need to get a job...

Ur fudged.

and without these Certs your previous Graduation is useless because incomplete to become a teacher.


Therefor education is tied to money from A to Z.
...:huh:

seriously o_O

You're sort of fudged, but you can pay for the test again and take it a second time. You can keep paying and taking the test until you pass it. The results don't show how many times you took it, only what your best score was. And so all those people that got into schools that shouldn't have and are passed through classes they should have failed can, in the end, take those tests until they get the results they want. The colleges get rich, the test companies get rich, the prep companies get rich. And society gets people that hold degrees and certifications who are ill prepared for their chosen work.

The same thing happens with the SAT (the standardized test for college admission). You can take the test as many times as you want, provided you pay for it each time. The standard practice in the US is for students to take the practice SAT (PSAT) in the fall of their junior year of high school, and then the regular SAT in the spring of their junior year and twice in the fall of their senior year. Then they take the best scores from those three tests and use that to apply.

[HundertzehnGustav]

And work every day to make the boom times come back!:rock:

[Hottentot]

When graduation comes around, and new teachers are looking to be certified, they get to take the PRAXIS series of tests. Depending on your content area, that will be between six and ten individual exams, which are priced at $85.00 US per test.

Err, wait? Does that mean you have to take those test, and therefore are required to pay those sums? Or are they sort of voluntary like having your gangrene suffering leg operated is also voluntary?

[Takeda Shingen]

Man, that is rich. You must be one of the most self-righteous people I ever stumbled over.

In your own words: before you lecture others to stop playing games and to argue honestly from the start, learn to follow your own advise.

Enough with the polemics, Skybird. You knew what you were doing from the first post here. You do it all the time. All I've done is to expose you here for what you are.

[Hottentot]

In regards to meeting quotas, I am reminded of last years GCSE English fiasco in which some students took the exam in January 2012 and some in June. When the results for the exams in January came through it was decided by the exam boards that too many students were going to get C or above and so they pushed the boundary up and there was a qualification gulf between those who took the exam in January and those who took it in June.

Wouldn't it achieve the same result much better if they just outright used the Gaussian distribution? That's how it works in our matriculation exams, at least. You can (technically) get 48 out of 50 points and still not get the best grades if certain number of students have 49 or 50 points. Sometimes students see difficult exam questions as a mixed blessing since it also means that the requirements for the best grades will likely also be lower if not enough people can get the maximum scores.

[Takeda Shingen]

Err, wait? Does that mean you have to take those test, and therefore are required to pay those sums? Or are they sort of voluntary like having your gangrene suffering leg operated is also voluntary?

No, it is required. My certification was done back in 2000, but I had to take (using today's prices):

Elementary Education: Instructional Practice and Applications--$139.00
Elementary Education: Content Knowledge--$115.00
Elementary Education: Curriculum, Instruction, and Assessment--$115.00
Middle School: Content Knowledge--$115.00
Music: Analysis--$139.00
Music: Concepts and Processes--$139.00
Music: Content and Instruction--$139.00
Principles of Learning and Teaching: Grades K–6--$139.00
Principles of Learning and Teaching: Grades 5–9--$139.00
Principles of Learning and Teaching: Grades 7–12--$139.00

I passed the tests the first time so yes I would have paid $1,318.00 in test fees for certification. Added to that would have been payment for hard copies to send to the state. Music is a K-12 certification, so other content areas would not have all the tests, such all three Principles of Learning and Teaching exams. However, those holes are filled by other tests required for that individual certification.

[Hottentot]

Eh? That stuff sounds like the names of our courses. Except that ours don't come with a price tags and won't necessarily even involve a written test. I don't even know what kind of student could pay such sums when living on allowance and having to choose whether to buy macaroni or toilet paper from the grocery store this week. :doh:

[Takeda Shingen]

Eh? That stuff sounds like the names of our courses. Except that ours don't come with a price tags and won't necessarily even involve a written test. I don't even know what kind of student could pay such sums when living on allowance and having to choose whether to buy macaroni or toilet paper from the grocery store this week. :doh:

:haha: Oh, they take credit cards, which is the only way I could afford it at the time.

The most ridiculous thing was the Principles of Teaching 5-9 test. All it did was repeat some of the same questions that were asked in the K-6 and 7-12 tests. It was just to make you pay for another test.

[Oberon]

Wouldn't it achieve the same result much better if they just outright used the Gaussian distribution? That's how it works in our matriculation exams, at least. You can (technically) get 48 out of 50 points and still not get the best grades if certain number of students have 49 or 50 points. Sometimes students see difficult exam questions as a mixed blessing since it also means that the requirements for the best grades will likely also be lower if not enough people can get the maximum scores.

That could be the way they decide to go in future, it's hard to tell although I think they had any reform plans on hold because up until earlier this week the GCSE system was planned to be scrapped and replaced with an English Baccalaureate Certificate, however now that's been dropped I imagine that they'll be looking for ways to reform the standard GCSEs.
You can pretty much guarantee though that if the system makes sense and works then they won't use it and will instead invent something completely convoluted that will fall apart at the first test.

[GT182]

:hmmm: Is it possible that the PISA test was leaning in the wrong direction?

[Skybird]

:hmmm: Is it possible that the PISA test was leaning in the wrong direction?

You mean by leaning an ideologically motivated bias? Yes, but the main problem probably are are wrongly used mathematical methods, I mean methodology. There is quite some criticism in the methods, and the data PISA studies produced often show contradictions and violate previously made predictions and hypothesis as well.

I did not search too much for it, but as a starting example I found this, though it is in German.

http://www.borsche.de/pisa/

One cannot afford to completely ignore PISA, but by guts feeling I think it is overvalued in recognition, especially in Germany, where discussions like about PISA very quickly are done in hysterical fashion.