EU disconnects even more from reality

[Skybird]

People are turning away from the EU, due to its dubious nature, political conspiracy against the people and dictatorial trend. Solution? See here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9845442/EU-to-set-up-euro-election-troll-patrol-to-tackle-Eurosceptic-surge.html

That's what the media and various ministries in the GDR and USSR have done, too.

What'S especially nerve-wrecking is the naturalness by which it is implied in intention as well as in quoted words by speakers that it is unimaginable that people turn away due to other reasons than being "misinformed", and the naturalness by which it is implied and expressed in straight words that the great success and wonderful nature of the EU is beyond doubt and cannot be questioned at all.

Let's force people to see the truth! Those who don't, obviously are mentally ill or have the most evil intentions.

Disloyal peasants, beware - the EU will teach ya! And if we cannot get you, then we get your chidklren - whom you will soon be forced to hand over to state'S care from the youngest of ages on so that they can be drilled according to EU doctrine from the first birthday on!

That we have had before, too. Again, in states like the GDR, USSR, Mao's China, and so on. The mothers meanwhile produced tax incomes for the state by drudging in the factories.

Hail to Big Brother, praise the EU! :yeah:

P.S. Mind you, after having criminalised criticism of religion, namely Islam, by labellling it as equal to "hate crime" and discrimination for which under EU law you now can get punished, there is a strong initiative amongst EU autocrats who try since three years or so to criminalise criticism of the EU, too. That movement has agrowing support in the EU parliament and observers say it is only a question of time until the EU parliament, in an attempt to "aristocratize" itself so to speak, will make a formal proposal to the Central Committee to get according actions started to make this mandatory law in membership states. Some even want to prosecute criticism of the EU in non-member-states and dream of legal cooperation treaties with non-EU states to assure this option.

You better voluntarily be in favour of the EU. Else you get made to be. Well, great dictatorships have set that precedent before.

[Tribesman]

P.S. Mind you, after having criminalised criticism of religion, namely Islam, by labellling it as equal to "hate crime" and discrimination for which under EU law you now can get punished
The mods have said I must refrain from my usual response to such obvious bullexcrement
So lets just say that the entirely ficticious legislation Skybird is writing about is simply a product of his imagination brought on due to his obsessive hatred of muslims and the EU.

[Jimbuna]

Some of us may not be in the EU for all that much longer (wishful thinking).

[Cybermat47]

The mods have said I must refrain from my usual response to such obvious bullexcrement
So lets just say that the entirely ficticious legislation Skybird is writing about is simply a product of his imagination brought on due to his obsessive hatred of muslims and the EU.

Seems legit.

[Respenus]

Ah, my favourite EU commentator, Mr. Waterfield. I remember him when he attacked the European Food Safety Authority for its decision on bottled water and dehydration. For those of you who do not remember, the experts at EFSA decided that according to current legislation, bottled water cannot be say that it prevent dehydration due to a) different quantities of bottled water, b) differences in human physiology and c) different sources of dehydration. Think of the decision what you wish, I don't see this as another EU banana rules, which, again I must remind everyone, have long since been repealed and even when they were put into place, were more of a power politics thing than an actual technical element (the UK just lost preferential agreements for its favoured importers, so the law remained a sore thumb for a long period of time).

Doing a quick search through the more credible EU news sites, I was unable to find any comments on the "Political guidelines for the institutional information and communication campaign" at this time (although such news will probably surface in the next couple of days). I will return if any such news arises or the document is published.

Going to the argument itself, I can see both points of debate. Media publications, especially the British media (and well, all other populist media), severely misrepresent how the EU actually works, how decisions are made and what legislation is actually in place and most importantly, the legislation that can actually be put into place. The Lisbon 'dictate' (Hello Skybird!) actually went a long way in getting the Member States back into control and we see a constant push towards it as we move along, at least in the more sensitive areas. On the other hand, I do see where an official institution, rather than political groups/parties at European level, would act in defence of a particular policy and the conflict of interest this would raise.

I am all for representing the truth (as I do on these forums and those of you who know me, remember that I always present my opinions backed by facts) and I agree that there are many problems with the EU, but please, can we stop with the senseless attacks and outright lies and actually debate the EU like rational individuals?

[HundertzehnGustav]

if you do not like the EU, please write to your local poliitician to pressure him in represennting your opinion: germany should get the hell out of it.

no?

[mapuc]

I can't really say that I hate EU. It's more my government that are pulling us, the danish people deeper into EU and that's without having asked us the people.

There are parties and politician in my country that gladly would give away the danish sovereignty to EU.

But it's not every one of them that would do so and these are what we called EU critical politician.

I try to read some of the lovers of EU and what they have to say and I also try to read what the critics to EU have to say.

Markus

[Tribesman]

Ah, my favourite EU commentator, Mr. Waterfield.
Is that the "barmy brussels bureaurcrats reject known scientific fact" story which turned out to be "advertising that product with that slogan is not accurate"?
Its easy to say how crap the EU is, there is absolutely no need to invent stories or ficticious legislation.

[Skybird]

if you do not like the EU, please write to your local poliitician to pressure him in represennting your opinion: germany should get the hell out of it.

no?
:haha: :har: You do not know Germany nor the pigs on its animal farms. and mind you, they explcilty avoid to let the people of European nations have a word on basic questions like introducing the Euro, changing home constitutions and signing the new EU treaty - have you forgotten that? We and many other nation's people got explicitly locked out.

Cameron wants to ask his people. At least that is what he says (I believe it when I see it). Look at the anger and annoyance amongst European autocrats he has caused? Asking the people on the EU? How can he dare that? The people? What has the people'S will to do with the EU? No, Britain should not ask its people. Like the people should not have gotten asked ion the EU constitution (and in fact were not asked, and the two countries where they asked nevertheless, the vote was repatred until one got the vote one wanted).

We have had this kind of democratic understanding in Europe, until just recently. In the states of the Warsaw Pact. In the German Democratic Republic (Ha! Its even in its name: democratic!). They all held elections. They all had parties. They all had parliaments. They all were democratic. Or so they said.

But okay, when there is a day I have nothing to do and ar e threatened to die of boredom, I can write some politician in the Bundestag a letter. That is one of those politicians then who just signed and accepted to betray the German constitution and the role it dictates for said parliament. German politicians are th European leaders in desiring self-empowerment on behalf of the EU, like the Brits are the European leaders in just wanting that not. ;)

We are expected to just nod to what the great wise men dictate to us - not to have differing opinions. ;) Where there is a risk that we would not nod it off, we do not get asked then - and where we demand to get asked, we get locked out by force. The whole EU is based on this principle.

We cannot ask politicians to give us back our freedom, even more when their career interests is against the peoples' interest. We must take it ourselves, which implies: against their will. Where we do not will to fight for our freedom and against them, we do not deserve freedom then. Freedom cannot be asked for, nor can it be given. It must be taken. The persons you want to write letters to, are not possibly helping to solve the problem. They are part of the problem, the system of power they benefit from and that fosters them is part of the problem, the way power as corrupted the mechanisms of power and has occupied legislation and moral interpretation is part of the problem. The institutions of the state are corrupted on behalf of the EU, from the bottom up to the Constitutional High Court.

They all are standing in the way. So what are people willing to do about this? Writing letters? I could as well turn into a church believer and pray to God that he changes the laws of physics due to my prayers.

[August]

This is what happens when a people disconnects from their government. Decades of saying that the government doesn't represent the people has made the people apathetic and politicians bold.

Where are the protests? Where are the demonstrations? Complaining about it to a bunch of foreigners on this forum isn't going to force the changes you seek.

Like a local pol of ours said recently: “I’m proud to be here with people who understand that it’s more than just sending an email to get you going. Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary.”

Now I didn't agree with his cause but you can't ignore his fervor.

[Hottentot]

Where are the protests? Where are the demonstrations?

"Yeah, someone should really start one. I'd totally go there to speak up my mind!"

[HundertzehnGustav]

Thing is...
There is so much to take care of, and my day only has 24 hours and my pay is meager.
I am so busy doing my job and fixing the minefield that my private life is that i can not dedicate 4 hours a day on understanding how this EU thing works, and whom i should hang by his ba... Buttocks.
Dealing with the local politicians is what i manage at best, and even THEY write in a manner that i do need help understanding the letters.

[August]

If things are half as bad as Skybird claims I just don't see how you guys have a choice.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Its like a pyramid. the larger the base elements, the higher the higher ups are floating.
and man, are they floating! like balloons!
Its one of the reasons why I, for one am very EU critical.

but in this global world... how to do anything else than team up in order to survive? and the EU is , among others the effort to stand together in the competition for economic and military, financial , social (community) and intellectual assets.

small guy sees no option but to play that game, ignore the bad parts and hope for the best. While sometimes whishing it was 1995 again.

[Respenus]

@HundertzehnGustav

You are absolutely right in your assumption that in order to survive we need to work together, although precisely what form this takes is open up to debate, which I agree isn't done often enough. On this topic, I recommend work by Alan S. Milward, whose analysis of the reasons behind the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, the first step toward the EU, points to the possibility to save the nation state in a completely new and hostile post WW2 environment.

I personally have to thank Skybird for introducing me to a more EU-critical stance. One doesn't have to reject it in order to question some elements and I dislike individuals on both sides of the debate that are completely inflexible and unwilling to see the other side of the coin. It is also true that the EU isn't debated enough, or more precisely, it is not presented in its true complexity. This will sound like elitist bull, but from my experience a lot of people change their opinion from a EU-rejection to EU-critical stance once you take the time and present and meat and the bones of how things are done in the EU, and not just the simplified, easy-to-digest morsels fed by the media. However, I also agree that this takes time and effort and most people will not do it. This is why, in my opinion, the EU is currently stuck between moving forward and lingering into obscurity. One part is the capabilities-expectations gap, another is the misunderstanding of the fundamental elements of EU policy and decision-making.

@August, things are bad in the EU right now, with unemployment and zero growth (outside Germany, Poland and some select few), but not with the EU as such, or that is what I would claim. The European Council (composed of Heads of State and Government) has taken on a leading role in the crisis solving, much to the detriment of the European Commission, which is supposed to represent the general interest of the EU and be the driving motor with its policy proposals. So in the middle of the crisis, we have minor institutional wrangling (although the president of the Commission has more or less accepted his role of subservience to the European Council) and the Parliament is being loud with its new found right to give assent on the new multiannual financial framework (consider it as the ultimate budgetary constraint for the next 7 years). Mix this with the crisis and the fact that the EU cannot do most if not all of the stuff the citizens want it to (like social security and rights) and that it depends on the Member States for the funding of its programmes, and you have a hell of time getting stuff done. This of course, reflect badly on the entire EU in the public, with the different relations and rules not being as clear on the first look.

So yeah, another fun day in EU-ville. Come join me for another exciting adventure :yeah:

[Tribesman]

If things are half as bad as Skybird claims I just don't see how you guys have a choice.
If things were 10% as bad as Skybird claims I don't see how we would have a choice, but the claims are 95% rubbish.

but from my experience a lot of people change their opinion from a EU-rejection to EU-critical stance once you take the time and present and meat and the bones of how things are done in the EU, and not just the simplified, easy-to-digest morsels fed by the media. However, I also agree that this takes time and effort and most people will not do it. This is why, in my opinion, the EU is currently stuck between moving forward and lingering into obscurity. One part is the capabilities-expectations gap, another is the misunderstanding of the fundamental elements of EU policy and decision-making.

Thats the core of the issue, too many people seem to read a sensationalist piece of nonsense about bent cucumbers or banning balloons and simply believe what they read without question.
Unfortunately it tends to be the ones that swallow the simpletons media version which make the most noise.

[Tchocky]

If things are half as bad as Skybird claims I just don't see how you guys have a choice.

You're funny :D

[Skybird]

If things are half as bad as Skybird claims I just don't see how you guys have a choice.

People in Europe and Germany are as much or as little "represented" by their voted politicians as in America. In other words: American politicians are as corrupted and disconnected as are European ones. In both systems you cannot get rid of the career guys, you can vote them out of office - and they keep popping up somewhere else instead, being pushed by their party's network. In both systems casreer politicians tell people they are from the people and for the people, and try to lure people into deeper dependencies from their party, by corrupting them with promises and so getting them used to benefits they gain from them - and so getting their votes. In both systems - is it really two different systems? - state and individuals live beyond their means and carelessly contribute to increasing the debt bubble. In both systems, political decision makers are mined by private lobbyists, and politics is in bed with business and banks. In both system this is a state of things that is not according to what the founding documents of nations or their constitutions want them to be. The discrepancy between what Germany is, and what is described in the Basic Law, is immense, and widening. The difference between what is in the American constitution and later attached documents, and the reality of politics and power in the US of the present time, is immense and is widening. By idea, the US is not any more free or more democratic, than many European nations like modern Germany, France, or Britain.

I never saw any justification in the way August makes it appear as if the Us were more free or democratic than many European states. On paper, the one is not more or less worse or good than the other. You will fail to demonstrate the superiority of the American constitution over the German one, or of the American pursuit of happiness over the German human dignity being inviolable, or over the French liberté, egalité, fraternité. And any such debate would be pointless today anyway, because our nations alltogether are no longer representing and living the principles they have been founded upon, once, a more or less longer time ago.

What politicians in America and Europe really live by, is the ruleset analytically examined and cold-bloodedly described by Machiavelli in his most profound book, the Discorsi. I highly recommend it. If you believe in political ideals, it will make short process of your ideals however. Power is not idealistic, nor is it moral. It is opportunistic, and pragmatic. In Europe. And in America. The rest of those noble ideas about today's politics is just good enough for the museums. - Mind you: Machiavelli did not advise what he thought was a good idea - he described what he observed. His approach was analytical, where as all others before him where idealistically when writing on the principles of politics. Others wrote what it should be like , ideally, Machiavellig wrote what in reality really happened. It is this misunderstandment that makes him so often and so massively misunderstood.

[HundertzehnGustav]

be4cause with open eyes, you see some inconvenient truths.
Things that make you mad...

So we have a bunch of frickin Liars "leading" us, a proper bunch of EU bureaucrats that are like leeches to the basic founding ideas, a set of lawyers and businessmen that sell the factories, while drugging us up with cheap Iphones and cheap Cars and the promises of cheap food, clothes and services.

While, dare i say, the dragon has awoken and the Beduin is counting his cash, The King of Russia is watching on silently and our American Friends have their own stuff and engagements to handle.

While The Europeans are breeding over financial problems and throwing punches at each other instead of standing together getting ready fro the onslaught from the outside.

How can this end well?

[mapuc]

Earlier today I read in the danish newspaper the same thing Skybird had linked to and was talking about

I was thinking about writting to this paper and telling them that it's a hoax and if they don't believe me they should visit this side, where there were a person that post a link and a story about it, but he was told that it is a lie/hoax

I think that our mainstrem media should be better than spreading these lies about EU, don't you think so too.

Markus

[HundertzehnGustav]

I think we should ignore our mainstream Media... turn off the TV and Radio for example.

OR alternativly, read at least 2 newspapers a day. the right side one, and the left side one. The truth is in between these two most of the time.

but since that does not help much and none of the media are actually able to present facts, facts only...
I think it is a waste of time to pay any attention to these liars and biased interest groups.

[Tchocky]

but since that does not help much and none of the media are actually able to present facts, facts only...
I think it is a waste of time to pay any attention to these liars and biased interest groups.

That's a mighty fine way to ensure you're not informed at all. I'd say keep it balanced, but never sacrifice quality and objectivity for the sake of balance (as so often happens), research outlets and newspapers.

There's plenty of rubbish out there, but also plenty of honest journalism and informative content.

[HundertzehnGustav]

effort spent on information brings no gain.
I rather do some overtime or extra IT work at home instead of reading masses of info and trying to figure out the truth.

and even if i catch a glimpse of the truth and gain some understanding, the polits and big bosses still do what they want.
every four years i can make a vote, and happily do so.
But that is a Joke really. (beep)holes come, (beep)holes go - you can not get rid of them. Always been like that.

so is it not better to focus on your own stuff instead of wasting your time on big subjects that you have no influence on?

[August]

People in Europe and Germany...

I thought this thread was about the people in Europe and Germany. Imagine my surprise when somehow you make this again a criticism of the United States.

I don't know if I really care for that. :03:

But let me try and understand anyways. Even if your comparisons were valid (and i'm not saying they are), are (Western) Europeans so hung up on us that you won't even rebel against your own corrupt system, unless we rebel against ours first? I'm not claiming this is so but you certainly make it sound like it is.

[Tribesman]

Earlier today I read in the danish newspaper the same thing Skybird had linked to and was talking about

You can find dozens of articles any day of the week, it doesn't mean they are true.

[Skybird]

I thought this thread was about the people in Europe and Germany. Imagine my surprise when somehow you make this again a criticism of the United States.

I don't know if I really care for that. :03:

But let me try and understand anyways. Even if your comparisons were valid (and i'm not saying they are), are (Western) Europeans so hung up on us that you won't even rebel against your own corrupt system, unless we rebel against ours first? I'm not claiming this is so but you certainly make it sound like it is.

I don't know if Europeans are "so hung up on you" as you naturally imply. Militarily, yes. Else - well, American finance and economic policy do not have the best reputation over here. You - your policies as well as your finance institutions - costed us too much recently. Not that they are flawless in the EU, they are not, and they are turning worse and worse. But the outbrake of the crisis 2007/2008 was triggered by events in the US, and global fiance system is tailkored according to American influence issued over decades, to design it so that the global currency flow patterns make America the benefitting centre (at least that was the past). Every empire does that designing the patterns and trade and capital flow such that they move towards the centre - the core region of the empire.

However. Apathy, phlegmatism, laziness and luxury, and allowing to get lured by politicians bribing voters with unaffordable "presents" to lure them into dependency from state and parties, do their part. That has little to do with relying on the US.

As I see and feel it, it is a form of a very subtle totalitarian tyranny that is being established. Yes, there is no black uniforms int he streets, and no torture and no family clan being in command. But there is anonymous pressure of what socially gets accepted as an opinion, and what not. Public campaigns if you violate the rules on what to think is accepted - and what not. Interest policies and finance policy massively expropriating people. Pseudo-elections between parties for which you can vote but who not really represent alternatives that would make a difference. And above all, the unfolding umbrella of power of the EU that projects its growing power and unfolds its internal functionality in ways that directly compare to how it was done in regimes like the USSR and East Germany.

With posters and demonstrations you do not get close to changing things. The revolt must start in the heads of people, in the inside of theirs. You cannot change the system from within anymore, it is designed to make sure you cannot dance inside of it if you do not follow its rules - decades of corrupt power have assured that. Justice serves that purpose. Policy.making serves that purpose. Depending on personal cliques and networks that bypass the formal democratic rules serve that purpose. In a corrupt regime running by rules of corruption you can only become influential if you become corrupt yourself.

Look at the example set by your own country. Your people believed the many lies and cheating of Bush and his gang. You got led around by rings in your noses, and you thought you were free. Some of you still think it was all okay, and that the system functioned. The fact that Bush is no more there, by others is seen as the evidence that it functions - ignoring that he was allowed the full legally possible 8 year term, and th network that brought him to power and the corrupted in-bed relationship between your politicians and your big business and finance lobby still being there. You want to know why Europeans do not stand up? Than just look at the example set by your own country and why Americans also do not revolt and do not stand up. Instead they still defend the state of things. With every voting in which they participate. It may not legitimize the person. But it legitimises a corrupted system - by submitting to its demand to play by its corrupted rules, or not to play at all.

The attitude in which to meet life under such circumstances, I found described very closely to my own feeling in "Der Waldgang" by Ernst Jünger. It deals with the inner attitude and possible resistance, first by said inner attitude then by practical deed, when being forced to live under increasingly totalitarian control by the state and its society. I am surprised that it apparently is one of his books that never got translated to English, at least I could not find any hint on that. Since you understand German a bit, read the comments on the german amazon site to learn more.

http://www.amazon.de/product-reviews/3608932496/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#RIJQFM1ACI4Z0

I find it difficult to explain in brief what it is about, and that is why Jünger did so by using metaphors, like a "ship on the ocean", thrown around by the waves while sailing on the surface of immense depth and monumental volume nevertheless, or, as the book title says, the lasting standards represented by the "forest" to which the outcast retreats when the tyranny facing him leaves him only this option, or compliance with totalitarian demands, and thus: submission to the regime. The man retreating into the forest", is the man claiming responsibility for his thinking and doing, not allowing this responsibility to be taken away from him, and not accepting to live by the rules demanded by him and thinking the thoughts society expects from him. The "Waldgänger" thus is the resistence fighter, who first resists inside his self, hidden from the world around him, but then, when the regime leave him no other choice than to make a decision to be "for it or against it", retreats, becoming an outcast by that, and thus necessarily form that on lives in violation of the laws of society, and accepts that his resistance now indeed could bring him into serious confrontation with most practical consequences with force, police, law, terror. Jünger has many facets and often is of greater depth than at first glance is evident, that is why he is so massively and very easily misunderstood as being a militarist and even fascist (which he never was and never wished to be, to make that clear). But he attacks certain inner weaknesses and tendency for self-damaging softnesses in the Western ideas of social and democratic societies that I fully understand. It is q very powerful book. And in a way, a very merciless book as well, seen from a certain perspective. I deeply appreciate the spirit of consequence and inner seriousness that it breathes.

Needles to say left-leaning softies, EUrocrats, and other social nanny fans and "milk drinkers" hate it. Jünger is much hated by many people in Germany in general. Because only few are for immersing deeper into his thinking - and then understand that what he is about is quite different from what he seems to be writing: militaristic glorification of war. Nonsense.

It seems I have a soft spot for authors that are easily misunderstood and are hated by the majority over here. Nietzsche. Machiavelli. Jünger. :)

[August]

I don't know if Europeans are "so hung up on you" as you naturally imply.

I didn't imply it, I stated it and from what I can see yes you are, or at least some of you are. The European peoples relations with the EU have nothing to do with us yet you feel it necessary to excuse your apathy by claiming that we're infected with the same disease. It's not gonna wash.

Maybe we Americans are blind but in our blindness we still have our hands in the game. Our politicians still have to tread a lot more carefully around us than yours do around you. You can't blame us for that.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Try and replace the word "excuse" by something like "describe".
I feel that Skybird wants to describe an image of the european peoples.

Not find excuses, for he offers a Book where a man takes thought, reasoning and action in his own hands, for his own sake, accepting the consequences of stepping out of the system and living on his own without the EU. The Global MoneyFlow.

That might help you gain an understanding of his post.
:up:

[antikristuseke]

If things are half as bad as Skybird claims I just don't see how you guys have a choice.

They aren't, most of what Sky complains about is fictional sensationalistic cowpies juggled by unemployed muslims in clown make up.

[Hottentot]

fictional sensationalistic cowpies juggled by unemployed muslims in clown make up.

The mental image...get it off, get it off!! :huh:

[HundertzehnGustav]

Or how the (low quality)media can affect your point of View on things...:D

[Tribesman]

Or how the (low quality)media can affect your point of View on things...:D
The opening link being a good example, the Telegraph used to be a relatively good paper, now its run by two alledged crooks and staffed by Daily Fail castoffs.

[Skybird]

I didn't imply it, I stated it and from what I can see yes you are, or at least some of you are. The European peoples relations with the EU have nothing to do with us yet you feel it necessary to excuse your apathy by claiming that we're infected with the same disease. It's not gonna wash.

Maybe we Americans are blind but in our blindness we still have our hands in the game. Our politicians still have to tread a lot more carefully around us than yours do around you. You can't blame us for that.
You have illusions about the state of things in your country. As we see it, corruption is AT LEAST as great in the US as it is here. Most of the lobbyists influencing decision makers in Brussel (insiders say there are 40-60 lobbyists per member of EU parliament), are representing American companies or US state offices. You are a very German, ironically: you represent quite strongly what usually is associated with the Germans: that the Germans are obedient believer of the official order and believe in the authenticity and legality of authorities and that things in reality of the state function like it is laid out black on white on paper. As I said before over the years: you mistake America as it is with what by the intentions 200 years ago it was meant to be. You refuse to realised the wide gap between the intention and the status-as-is. But the latter is what America really defines.

Not what we want to be, but what we really do is what defines who we are. The ideals expressed in old historical documents, and the contemporary present state - the latter is an insult to the first.

Has the military drilled you to be so uncritical towards your political leaders and establishment, so that you so notoriously mistake intention of the ideal with status in reality? I think so. Or is that a characteristic trait of yours that has drawn you to the military in the first? I have see your attitude towards your nation so very very often in professional soldiers, a certain kind of blind faith in one's country and leaders, uncritical and unreflective, no matter from which country. Germans, British, Americans, it does not matter. But I would hope and expect this to ease of a bit when one becomes older and has seen some nasty things. But well, everybody wants to believe he is on the side of what is good and what is the light, so maybe that is just a human basic attitude and to varying degrees can be found in everybody. If you want to sell war and soldiering to people, you have to be especially convincing in this regard, due to the matter war deals with.

"Nur die treuesten Soldaten schützen den Genossen Generalsekretär!" was an answer by a former GDR-security officer to a question in an interview. The Swiss guard is recruited from uncritical devout believers only.

Anyhow, this came in today: Es macht keinen Spaß mehr, Anti-Amerikaner zu sein (http://www.welt.de/kultur/article113442546/Es-macht-keinen-Spass-mehr-Antiamerikaner-zu-sein.html). :D

Funny that even me thinks since two or three years that Obama-policy indeed is pure socialism.

Why is this so. Maybe because if both Europeans and Americans get lured by their corrupted establishments to move away from the democratic and free and liberal basic orders their states are founded upon, this is motivated by the same intentions of the establishments to accumulate even more corrupted power and deceive the masses over that. Same intention causes same design, and so both America and Europe become more and more equal in the way they are being distorted.

What comes it down to by the end of the day? When the democrats win an election and send a president, the corporations in the background stay in control and power. And when the Republicans win elections and send a president, the corporations in the background stay in control and power. Politicians come and go, the system stays. And that is not the system your constitution has idealistically "designed", but is an empty corpus that has been eroded and replaced with a different system that many people are not aware of, or prefer to ignore, and that has been designed by those in the background to serve their purpose and to safeguard them against the people. On how the US was meant, you must not argue with me, I have too much sympathy for that and agree with too much of that, and in the past 3 or 4 years have even moved more towards it. But in our amounts to which we see the difference between the idea, and the realised present status, we could not be more apart.

[Morts]

I thought this thread was about the people in Europe and Germany. Imagine my surprise when somehow you make this again a criticism of the United States.

I don't know if I really care for that. :03:

But let me try and understand anyways. Even if your comparisons were valid (and i'm not saying they are), are (Western) Europeans so hung up on us that you won't even rebel against your own corrupt system, unless we rebel against ours first? I'm not claiming this is so but you certainly make it sound like it is.
Please dont use Skybird as the standard for Europeans.
And his rants really only represent a small portion of the people here.

[August]

Please dont use Skybird as the standard for Europeans.
And his rants really only represent a small portion of the people here.

I thought so. I have a bucket full of German relatives and none of them are anything like Skybird but you can't judge an entire people based on what your cousins are like.

[HundertzehnGustav]

True dat True dat. :)

and as with the media, it is with the people.
you have the lefties and the righties, the ones and the others, the same and the different.
Truth lies somewhere in the middle.