Why do they DO that?

[She-Wolf]

I have seen it in SH3 and SH4; you are being hunted by an escort or subchaser, and successfully avoid detection until dark, and then, when your tormentor is a good distance away the opportunity comes to sneak off. You check the sonar and all you get is silence, so you pop up to periscope depth and take a peek, and there he is, lying silent in the water perhaps 1000 yards away or more - and he stays there, unmoving, not just for a few minutes, but HOURS. The temptation (to which I usually succumb) is to turn around, creep in closer and deliver the killing blow - and when I have done this it is just as if I am hitting a dead ship - no springing into life to get out of the way at the last moment. It might be satisfying to do that, but surely it is a long way from realistic. I cannot believe any ship would just shut up and bed down for a snooze when it was known that a sub was in the vicinity. Is it a game bug?

[ColonelSandersLite]

He's listening and trying to reestablish contact in the event that you're just sitting down there. Yeah, they actually did that. It's basically a mind-screw to make you think he's gone, so you secure from silent running. I know you're running rfb from another thread and have no experience with it, but I know that in tmo they'll almost certainly accelerate out of there as soon as you fire.

Just guessing here, but I wonder if ships usually spot torpedo wakes in rfb? With tmo, firing mk 10s outside of about 1,000 yards on any target is an almost guaranteed miss.

[She-Wolf]

ahh, right... for hours though? It happened in SH3 Grey Wolves as well. In SH4 running TMO 2.5 as I recall, they seem to be alert in the daytime and DO see the torpedo coming - but at night - different story? Can't remember now.

I have bagged several that way over the years, so probably was in TMO 2.5, and am about to try it again when I next go back in (RSRDC/RFB). Great fun though whatever the reality.

ps in daytime in RFB I have had problems even getting close enough to battle convoys, but with a little merchant convoy guarded by two escorts - doddle. No-one spotted the two torps I knobbled my first prize with...

[Wildcat]

Yeah, for hours.

They don't know if you are gone or if you have just turned your engines off or if you're still sitting on the bottom. They have no idea if you're just too quiet to hear - so they sit and wait and hope they hear something. They usually stay in the same place to block your path toward whatever they're protecting.

That being said if I heard torpedoes I would go to flank speed immediately and evade - not impossible, if you remember the days of Destroyer Command..!

[She-Wolf]

Wildcat, my first subsim (never tried boats) was on an Amiga ( that dates me), so I googled Destroyer Commander and it looks GOOD! Wonder if it will run on W7...

Thank you for the wisdom you both. Pleased to know it was a real ( if risky) tactic

[Armistead]

Sleeper escorts can be deadly when you play with cams off. I play TMO as well, if they hear you or spot you, they will get moving. The visuals do go down at night for the torp wakes, so often you can sink them. Really depends on the time of war, crew ratings, etc....

If I play with cams off, I always come up to scope depth and look around before I surface. Some make the mistake of thinking it's all clear, blow tanks and surface only to find a escort next to them..

[She-Wolf]

I don't come anywhere close to the skill and knowledge of most of you guys in Subsims, so I think luck rather than ability is behind my modest successes - but I got 'im, and he didn't budge an inch. Doesn't the sound of the approaching torpedo warn them I wonder?

[Sailor Steve]

Doesn't the sound of the approaching torpedo warn them I wonder?
Hydrophones are directional. If he's listening in the right direction at the right time he can hear it. If not, too bad. If it's a steam torpedo then of course they should see the wake. I don't think that's the case here though; it sounds to me more like a glitch of some kind. I have to admit that in all my time playing SH3 I never saw one sit like that for hours. Usually it was not more than a minute or two, which can certainly seem like hours. Also, in real life that was not a common tactic. A destroyer can listen (and ping) up to about 12 knots, and cover a lot more ground that way. Sitting still is inviting disaster.

And now, I'll sidestep with a little story:

When I came back from Vietnam in July 1970 my girlfriend was there to meet me. Hugs and kisses, just like in a movie. She had been driven to Long Beach by a friend of hers, and I gave them a tour of the ship. The friend asked what the big box between the funnels was, and I said "ASROC". She asked what ASROC was, and I said "Anti-Submarine Rocket". She asked what that was, and I told her a story that actually dates back to WW2. "We have what's called the 'Green Paint Division'. We can carry ten thousand gallons of green paint on board. When we detect a submarine we drop about a few hundred gallons in the water and sail away. When we're a couple of miles away we shut the engines down and wait. Thinking we might be gone, the sub comes up for a look around. When he sticks his periscope up it gets covered with green paint. The sub thinks his instruments are off and he's still underwater, so he keeps coming up. We wait until he's a thousand feet or so up in the air, and then we shoot him down with the Anti-Submarine Rocket!"

The poor girl's eyes got wide and she said "Really?" My girlfriend, on the other hand, was biting her lips to keep from laughing. She may not have known what an ASROC really was, but she was pretty certain it wasn't that.

I was told that the joke dates back to WW2, except then they shot the u-boat down with anti-aircraft guns. :03:

[fireftr18]

Hydrophones are directional. If he's listening in the right direction at the right time he can hear it. If not, too bad. If it's a steam torpedo then of course they should see the wake. I don't think that's the case here though; it sounds to me more like a glitch of some kind. I have to admit that in all my time playing SH3 I never saw one sit like that for hours. Usually it was not more than a minute or two, which can certainly seem like hours. Also, in real life that was not a common tactic. A destroyer can listen (and ping) up to about 12 knots, and cover a lot more ground that way. Sitting still is inviting disaster.

And now, I'll sidestep with a little story:

When I came back from Vietnam in July 1970 my girlfriend was there to meet me. Hugs and kisses, just like in a movie. She had been driven to Long Beach by a friend of hers, and I gave them a tour of the ship. The friend asked what the big box between the funnels was, and I said "ASROC". She asked what ASROC was, and I said "Anti-Submarine Rocket". She asked what that was, and I told her a story that actually dates back to WW2. "We have what's called the 'Green Paint Division'. We can carry ten thousand gallons of green paint on board. When we detect a submarine we drop about a few hundred gallons in the water and sail away. When we're a couple of miles away we shut the engines down and wait. Thinking we might be gone, the sub comes up for a look around. When he sticks his periscope up it gets covered with green paint. The sub thinks his instruments are off and he's still underwater, so he keeps coming up. We wait until he's a thousand feet or so up in the air, and then we shoot him down with the Anti-Submarine Rocket!"

The poor girl's eyes got wide and she said "Really?" My girlfriend, on the other hand, was biting her lips to keep from laughing. She may not have known what an ASROC really was, but she was pretty certain it wasn't that.

I was told that the joke dates back to WW2, except then they shot the u-boat down with anti-aircraft guns. :03:

:k_rofl:

[She-Wolf]

I read this story out to Best Beloved SS, and he laughed and mentioned a bit about ASROC, and something about a Bofors rocket - but he won't let me say anymore...

[TorpX]

Funny story.............:har:

That's why I come here.



I am hitting a dead ship - no springing into life to get out of the way at the last moment. It might be satisfying to do that, but surely it is a long way from realistic. I cannot believe any ship would just shut up and bed down for a snooze when it was known that a sub was in the vicinity.

I play RFB and can remember having a similar experience twice. One time after being driven down and waiting it became quiet. I thought they were all gone. We came to P/S depth and had a look. There he was a small minesweeper only a stones throw away. I could almost see what brand of cigarettes the Japs were smoking. It was dark and they were shining their searchlight around. I would have loved to put a fish into 'em, but they were too close and our boat was pointed the wrong way. As I was contemplating whether it was worthwhile to put some speed on and turn for a shot, he started off and left. It was nerve racking, TBH. He wasn't there all that long, as I recall.

The other time, a single Momi class torpedo boat spotted us at night and we dived. After we dived, we watched him move about to and fro dropping a charge or two, and firing their gun off. Later, he came to a halt and was listening. At first, we just waited. After a time, I decided I should try a shot. It took quite a while to turn the boat, as I did not wish to make much noise. Finally, I had the bow on and calculated the range. I was surprised he was still there...just drifting a little. We launch one torpedo. I am nervously counting down the seconds. As I get close the the calculated run time, he comes to life!
A moment after he starts moving, the torp hits with a big explosion. Initially, he seems unfased by the hit, but in a couple minutes he goes down by the stern. How he could have seen the torpedo in the dark is a mystery to me. If he had spotted it two seconds sooner, he would have beat it.


I think the main reason they used these stay behinds was to keep subs from doing end-arounds. How often they did it, I don't know. I don't consider it unrealistic, though. I'll admit, they seem vulnerable, but during the early part of the war, it was thought to be virtual suicide, to lock horns with destroyers.


Something else to consider is that when they are above you waiting, you are using up your air and battery, while they are not. They can afford to be patient.

[mookiemookie]

I don't come anywhere close to the skill and knowledge of most of you guys in Subsims, so I think luck rather than ability is behind my modest successes - but I got 'im, and he didn't budge an inch. Doesn't the sound of the approaching torpedo warn them I wonder?

Well in real life, going from a dead stop to 30 knots was not possible according to the laws of physics. It took time to get the engines up to speed, and it took time to get the ship moving through the water and up to speed. They weren't like cars that could start and stop on a dime. This, I think, is where the game is seriously lacking.

[Cybermat47]

When I came back from Vietnam in July 1970 my girlfriend was there to meet me. Hugs and kisses, just like in a movie. She had been driven to Long Beach by a friend of hers, and I gave them a tour of the ship. The friend asked what the big box between the funnels was, and I said "ASROC". She asked what ASROC was, and I said "Anti-Submarine Rocket". She asked what that was, and I told her a story that actually dates back to WW2. "We have what's called the 'Green Paint Division'. We can carry ten thousand gallons of green paint on board. When we detect a submarine we drop about a few hundred gallons in the water and sail away. When we're a couple of miles away we shut the engines down and wait. Thinking we might be gone, the sub comes up for a look around. When he sticks his periscope up it gets covered with green paint. The sub thinks his instruments are off and he's still underwater, so he keeps coming up. We wait until he's a thousand feet or so up in the air, and then we shoot him down with the Anti-Submarine Rocket!"



Oh, that never gets old :rotfl2:

First time I heard it, I felt sorry for the U-boat crew, until my Mum told me it wasn't true :har:

[ColonelSandersLite]

As to destroyers hearing torpedoes in sh3/4, I can say that I'm 99% certain that they cannot hear torpedoes, ever. I've never once seen a ship attempt to dodge electrics, and I have fired a *lot* of them. They are, in fact, my weapon of choice against unalerted targets, so I mostly take them whenever possible. Once you can use these to peg individual targets in convoys from 3000 yards, you're actually pretty much invincible if you stick to this method. They will never attempt to dodge, as there's no wakes to spot, and when you fire from that far out the destroyer ai will never find you.

It would be interesting to try and attach a sound generator that the sonar guy can hear to them, but if you did, I doubt that the ai routines to do anything but try and depth charge them exist.

Perhaps a way around it would be to make a noise maker that lasts like 2 seconds appear at the subs location when a torpedo is fired. The destroyer AI would probably fire up it's engines and head in that direction trying to acquire, which has a good chance of fouling the shot. Merchants with hydrophones would become alerted and start taking evasive action.

There is a hefty downside of attempting this though. I could be wrong, but I doubt that non-player ships hydrophone sets actually sweep like they should. This just sounds way too much like the kind of ai shortcut that would be present in this game. The point being, attempting to make the torpedoes alert enemies via hydrophones as stated above would probably alert them 100% of the time (i.e. all or nothing with no inbetween).


during the early part of the war, it was thought to be virtual suicide, to lock horns with destroyers.

This is something that's worth repeating. IRL, the destroyers have a huge pyschological advantage over the subs. In game, once you get some experience, this tends to not be so true.

[TorpX]

It would be interesting to try and attach a sound generator that the sonar guy can hear to them, but if you did, I doubt that the ai routines to do anything but try and depth charge them exist.


The torps do make noise that we can hear. I'm sure you're right about the AI, though. There have been interesting discussions about this with regard to circle runners, and what to do about them.

I doubt that it is very easy for a target ship to hear a closing torpedo. If it was, most torpedo attacks would have failed, no?