Data Protection/EU Privacy Debate

[STEED]

Today my Avast box popped up with this link, so read on.

The European Union is seeking to increase the private sphere of its citizens by strengthening data protection laws for the web. Large Internet firms and lobbyists are fighting the plans. Here's an overview of the debate in Brussels.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-european-union-closes-in-on-data-privacy-legislation-a-877973.html

[STEED]

Under existing privacy regulations, data protection supervision in EU countries must be conducted entirely independently of public authorities, and data protection controllers are not under the supervision of the European Commission. But the EU wants to weaken this policy and install itself as the data protection agencies' supervisory authority.

Excuse me but I don't trust the EU in its present form one bit.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Me neither.
anything i do on a pooter is either for fun or for work.

Fun related stuff can access the net.
Work related stuff is done either in a closed evironment with no net-related connections whatsoever, or on the work network altogether.

Sensitive data, like banking, shopping, exchange of spicy mails and anything i do not want other people to know, i do not trust the computer either.

Banking is done in persona, shopping is done by other people, and spicy and intimate stuff is done on a physical level.

============================
Some thoughts.

When it comes to hysteria over coming data protection rules in Europe, the most extremist warnings from lobbyists these days are coming out of the law firm Field Fisher Waterhouse.

The head of the firm's privacy and information law group, Eduardo Ustaran, recently told the American technology news service ZDNet that
if the EU's draft privacy and data protection law isn't changed, Gmail and Facebook may be forced to abandon their ad-supported models and start charging their customers in Europe or stop providing them with these popular services altogether.


Good. what's wrong?

You have internet access? you have an ISP.
Your ISP usually gives you 2/4 GB mail access.

You don't have Internet access?
Your local ISP may wnat to offer mail hosting services fora few bucks, so that you can check on the mails from an internet café.

--> money flows from Google to local businesses.









"If they weren't able to use your data in the way that is profitable or useful for them for advertising purposes, then either the user has to pay for it or stop using the service,"
Ustaran, whose company represents Facebook, Google and Zynga among other companies, told ZDNet.

just what i think would be a fun turn in things.

Not even industry associations representing the IT industry, who have been particularly critical of the draft European Data Protection Regulation, have gone that far.
who is these people we are speaking about here? the german or italian postal office or ISPs?
vague.



The demonstratively dark picture Ustaran paints of the regulations shows just how tough the fight between Web giants and regulators is growing over the issue of data protection reform.
Web giants shall remain web giants.

At the time, Reding promised the "right to be forgotten" for consumers who post personal information on Internet platforms.
All those embarrassing Facebook photos, she promised, could be gone with just a few mouse clicks.

Irrelevant. You screw up; you pay the price. The user is the one responsible for his actions.
Anything you put on the web can and WILL at some time be possibly held against you.
The Databases do not forget, the Databases are not yours.

A good idea, for those concerned, but one that takes responsibilities away from the citizen.
And thus bad, because it diminishes the awareness of your actions.

At the same time, Reding pledged a "one-stop shop" for the clarification of data protection questions --
a unified EU policy and a clear point of contact for every company.
seems okay. common rules for everybody in the EU, accessible in one place.
is there a catch?


The reason is that, taken individually, many pieces of data may not be considered to be personal.
If combined, however, it may be possible to clearly identify the end user using these bits of data.
These are defined as "online identifiers provided by their devices, applications, tools and protocols,
such as IP addresses or cookie identifiers."

True. piece for piece, like a puzzle, you are profiled on the networks. Till the big companies have a picture of who you are, what you usually do, where you go, buy eat and work on.
and these databases do not forget.
they only complete the picture about you.

...what for? what is their goal?

The debate is still raging over the precise definition of what can be considered personal data.

Opt-in vs Opt-out?
The user chooses what is personal, what is business, what is private what is not?

since all this is messy, and since LAWYERS are involved to break and overrule your decisions, keep everything as private. do not spread info on the net,
-because it will be caught,
-assebled
-and not forgotten.

do not buy online, unless you want amazon to track you.
go to your bookstore, and have thsm do it for you.
do not sell on ebay unless you want to be profiled.
sell locally by posting an ad in a newspaper.

case A)
If, for example, a German data protection commissioner complained to his or her Irish counterpart about a company that is based in Ireland and the official in Berlin didn't believe the Irish had handled the case correctly, the conflict would then be resolved by the board at the EU level.

case B)
Under the Reding draft, the European Commission would have had the last word in unresolved disputes.

none of them makes for a good rule, as the end user, be he a small private dude/ dudette, or a Company and small business,
will still give decision power away.

To "The EU" or "To Google" makes no difference.
Its like crapping in the hand and clapping in the other.

the solution is to keep in mind the networks catch it all, assemble profiles and never forget.
be anonymous.
be reponsible.
be local.
be.

[Jimbuna]

Excuse me but I don't trust the EU in its present form one bit.

We may not be in it much longer.

[The Enigma]

Which doesn't mean that's a bad thing, despite what the money driven companies are trying to make us believe.

I wish more countries would say enough is enough.
I don't trust my own government, let alone the EU.
Democracy has become a hollow word, but that's my humble opinion.

[HundertzehnGustav]

It's just too big to be believable.
on a small geographic continent, you have such small things like countries and ethnic groups...
Puttingthem in one pot and trying to merge them into one... under the ideology of "peace for all" ... was never going to work.

I expect the EU to fall apart slowly during the next decade anyway.

[Penguin]

The European Union is seeking to[...]
firms and lobbyists are fighting the plans.


We all know what will come out of it, as seen with countless other EU legislation :shifty:

Facebook and Google can cry a river all they want, all they should do is to respect the exicting data proptection laws, be transparent with the individual date they collected and quite some practices, e.g. persinstent tracking cookies, hidden in the like button all over the net.
If they can't follow the same rules countless other companies can, then bye-bye. The European market is too big to them to be neclected, so the threat to leave Europe is all typical lobby blackmailing bs.

What would this law provide for a country like Germany with already pretty strict data protection laws? A setback.
We don't have the right "to forget data", we have the right that the individual can insist have his collected personal data deleted - a very important difference.
So like with most EU laws: thanks, we don't need them, however this never stopped our glorious regime from putting those into law anyway...:-?

[Skybird]

When will the people of Europe rise and tear down the EU's social-fascist dictatorship like the people of Hungary, Poland, East Germany and Czechoslovakia have brought down their tyrant regimes 23 years ago? Why have people forgotten the lessons learned from the GDR and the USSR? The EU runs by the same mechanisms of never legitimized but usurped power like these two regimes did. How comes that this has already been forgotten again - less than just one generation later?

[Skybird]

When will the people of Europe rise and tear down the EU's social-fascist dictatorship like the people of Hungary, Poland, East Germany and Czechoslovakia have brought down their tyrant regimes 23 years ago? Why have people forgotten the lessons learned from the GDR and the USSR? The EU runs by the same mechanisms of never legitimized but usurped power like these two regimes did. How comes that this has already been forgotten again - less than just one generation later?

Maybe it is because people function by the same rules and leaders crave for power by the same rules as ever. There I have read so much by and about my beloved Machiavelli, and when his exquisit descriptions recommend themselves again to explain the present - I just forget to think about them. Stupid me!

Jubilee!. 500 years ago, Machiavelli pretty much founded what could be labeled as the beginning of political science. Different to philosophers and dreamers before him, he did not care to dream about what policy and state should be like, but he cool-mindedly described how the mechanisms of securing and gaining power function. That'S what made him different to everybody before him, and that is what makes him a master in his field until today.

[Karle94]

Why do I get the feeling that these new laws will affect me here in Norway, despite Norway not being a member of EU?

[Skybird]

Why do I get the feeling that these new laws will affect me here in Norway, despite Norway not being a member of EU?

Because your economy, like the Swiss economy, depends on the EU market and thus you must follow EU regulations dictated by Brussel to a wider degree than one would imagine, considering that Norway is not EU member.

I wish Britain, Germany and Finland would leave the EU, and together with Finland would form a new northern economy zone - that leaves it to economic coordinating, nothing more. The Poles economically would be fine to join, and the Dutch financially - but both political establishments in these countries are far too Europhile for my taste. But Britain, Germany, Finland and Norway - that would be something! :yeah: About the Czech I am not sure, even more so after the recent presidential election. Klaus may have been a strong EU critic, but the new guy is quite left and won by dirty tricks and plenty of anti-German ressentiment-raising, which obviously fell on fertile ground in parts of the Czech population. Why would I welcome that... And no, no France, please. No country in Europe by mentality is as socialistically oriented as the French. Let'S leave it to pragmatic temporary deals one a day-to-day basis, as a longterm ally I do not trust them anymore. The often announced Franco-German "axis" is seriously desintegrating since quite some time now.

Also not certain about the Danes, do not know their economy and EU attitude well enough.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Facebook and Google can cry a river all they want, all they should do is to respect the exicting data proptection laws, be transparent with the individual date they collected and quite some practices, e.g. persinstent tracking cookies, hidden in the like button all over the net.
If they can't follow the same rules countless other companies can, then bye-bye. The European market is too big to them to be neclected, so the threat to leave Europe is all typical lobby blackmailing bs.

Data protection Laws undermine this business.
Collecting Data by all means necessary is the CORE reason d'etre for web companies like Farcebook.
they are not there to provide, offer, give.. not for free.

Therefor their business is to step over the border and just ignore the rules.
Or sign the agreements and still do what they want.

Who will go and check their servers? the EU? the individual countries? Police departments' IT section? It is not going to happen.

Facebook does not care. The EU does not really care, because they are politicians who need votes...

The one that should care and use his brain is the user.
Nothing is free. "There is no such thing as free breakfast".

With SHV's DRM, people screamt "vote with your wallet!!"

yet, now with a similar "carrot and stick" situation, the userbase it crying and b*tching...??!
The fact that such debate even takes place is "Userfail"

on a VERY large scale.:yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

Sensitive data, like banking, shopping, exchange of spicy mails and anything i do not want other people to know, i do not trust the computer either.
Unfortunately the banks themselves use computers to convey information to each other. I don't think I'm any less safe doing my banking online. My check is deposited into the bank online, I buy stuff online, and I check my status online. What the bank does is create channels by which I can make quick claims if something doesn't look right, and take the responsibility if I'm right. Just because you go there in person doesn't mean someone else can't steal your money with a computer anyway.

[Tribesman]

Facebook and Google can cry a river all they want, all they should do is to respect the exicting data proptection laws, be transparent with the individual date they collected and quite some practices, e.g. persinstent tracking cookies, hidden in the like button all over the net.

Google and facebook are good tools for insurance companies to reject claims, the "like" button is magic.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Unfortunately the banks themselves use computers to convey information to each other. I don't think I'm any less safe doing my banking online. My check is deposited into the bank online, I buy stuff online, and I check my status online. What the bank does is create channels by which I can make quick claims if something doesn't look right, and take the responsibility if I'm right. Just because you go there in person doesn't mean someone else can't steal your money with a computer anyway.

true.

But the less i do online, the less failures by networks i can encounter.
i check my status online, and do all my transactions offline. i take half a day off every month for paperwork, banking , collecting and depositing parcels every month.

because i do not trust the web, the delivery services, "it has been deposited with your neighbor, mister ashat".

And by going banking in persona, i promote the human factor, and give the guys and gals at the cash counter a reason d'etre too. We do our thing and chat for a second.
They know me, and they know my financial status / mess over the last few years. They offer me advice, and i can read on their faces if that advice is honest and in relation to saving y butt cheeks, or just "doing their job at promoting a product"

Okay, i admiit - they look behind the customer, and have an intimate knowledge of my cashflow. more than they should have. But i know where their car is parked and where their house lives.

We can respect each other.
Try that with amazon or Mister Zuckerberg and his cronies.
Or that Kim Dotcom guy.

Do we need the EU to oversee us?

[the_tyrant]

hey, maybe we can all contribute a bit and get @subsim emails!


Seriously, please understand that anything you put on a server that is not yours is no longer yours.

I like Skydrive, enjoys Nokia Music, I have a Gmail account, and my other email is hosted by this email hosting company.

but please understand that anything and everything on the internet is not yours.

[Sailor Steve]

But i know where their car is parked and where their house lives.
:rotfl2: :rock:

[HundertzehnGustav]

Therefor i wonder: do we need to send an army of overpaid EU paperpushers to defend every freedom we, as silly buggers, let go?

I have the feeling, (the southern part of the) US sometimes feels the same. And many other regions and individual countries as well.

It is maybe time for the individual user to start flipping the thing.
instead of using the net to publish, use the net to NOT publish.

I am absolutely on the point of the tyrant: the web is uncontrollable. but also "free". or shall it be called "anarchy?" Is it already a Warzone?

Crying and making rules can work. Applying these rules can work with a lot of time (years!) and effort (cash!).

But it is in the individual brain where "Change" happens. To use the word of a wellknown afrikan american hawaiian Man.
It is in every Guy's power to do so.

[STEED]

I wish Britain, Germany and Finland would leave the EU, and together with Finland would form a new northern economy zone - that leaves it to economic coordinating, nothing more.

WOW! Now that is a interesting idea. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

WOW! Now that is a interesting idea. :hmmm:

Not really...probably end up in a third war between the Germans and Brits :)

[STEED]

Not really...probably end up in a third war between the Germans and Brits :)

Can't see it.

Hey Skybird I hear Germany is pulling every gold bar out of France, now that is going to get them rather angry. Who cares its your gold, after all Germany is taking a percentage out of the BoE & Fed as well.

[the_tyrant]

remember the old saying that if you tell someone a secret it is no longer a secret?

that applies to the internet too.

just remember that and you would be fine

[Penguin]

Google and facebook are good tools for insurance companies to reject claims, the "like" button is magic.

Really?:o
I have liked the plague on facebook, now I fear my medical insurance might deny treatment in case i catch it. :haha:
An honest question, nonetheless: do you know a case where the companies were succesfull with a rejection based on a like-click, even in court?

However my original statement considering the like-button, was about a practice, mentioned for example in this article: https://www.datenschutzzentrum.de/presse/20110819-facebook-en.htm
This is why websites who care about data protection, hide google+/facebook crap, untill the user explicitly agrees to show them.
For anyone interested, here is a javascript example, by the German computer mag c't: http://www.heise.de/extras/socialshareprivacy/ (site is in GErman, however code is universal;))



Seriously, please understand that anything you put on a server that is not yours is no longer yours.


Repeating the same argument twice on one page, does not change the fact that the law and people who care about data protection see it different.

Please check what's true:
( ) you have read the article
( ) you know the difference between the two proposed drafts
( ) you know the data protection laws of at least one EU member state
( ) you know what 'consent' and 'revoking consent' means

Judging from your statements I can't see any of this. In case you check all 4 boxes, we can have an open debate about the proposed law. Cheers!

[HundertzehnGustav]

well then i will only laugh at them, because these people are wayyyy behind the action curve.