Diver to the rescue

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21176914

Not wanting to anthropomorphize, but I have zero doubt that there are creatures sharing this world with us that are intelligent to significant degree, comparing to human children probably, and that are self-aware, are able to recognize us as being both that, too, and who even have personality, character, emotions, humour, and probably in at least some cases even have an understanding of the meaning of mortality and death. On dolphins I sometimes wonder whether maybe they know more about us than we know about them!? There are so many stories about remarkable human-dolphin interaction, so that really makes you think.

But when thinking about this, one should indeed always keep aware of the danger of anthropomorphizing.

[Catfish]

Define intelligence ..
Dolphins are, as are chimpanzees etc. just not as we understand it - an octopus is also intelligent, it even has 8 arms to manipulate, they just live for very few years, before they could really make use of experience, and do something else with it.
Is it really 'intelligent' to use all one's wit just to build weapons and dominate others.
There was a Ray Bradbury story where human missionaries went to Mars, trying to evangelize floating globes. I wonder what Jesus would mean to an octopus, without an 8-armed cross.

After all nets and wire did this to the dolphin, while thousand other dolphins are being caught with nets as by-catch. Did not some naval service use dolphins to detonate mines.

I liked that video of course, but i think the world has a disease called Homo Sapiens. Maybe it will get over it sooner or later :hmm2:

[Oberon]

It's very hard NOT to anthropomorphise in a situation like this, however the level of intelligence of dolphins cannot be underestimated, they are remarkable creatures. A lot of people also underestimate corvids, dismissing them as vermin, and yet they are also incredibly intelligent, fashioning tools and utilising mans environment to their gain (dropping hard nuts at pedestrian traffic crossings, so the traffic crushes the nut and then they take the food while the traffic stops and people cross).

[AVGWarhawk]

Perhaps this dolphin is accustomed to human divers in the water. This was a Manta Ray experience where many people dive daily? The dolphin understand he will not harmed? As a result, said diver the dolphin deems as benign takes the opportunity to help the dolphin after he discovers the entangled fin?

[Catfish]

[...] A lot of people also underestimate corvids, dismissing them as vermin, and yet they are also incredibly intelligent, fashioning tools and utilising mans environment to their gain (dropping hard nuts at pedestrian traffic crossings, so the traffic crushes the nut and then they take the food while the traffic stops and people cross).

They also bury food while another corvid watches them, and when the other flies away they get it out and bury it somewhere else .. competition is everywhere.
There is also a video on the tube showing a corvid surfing down a snowy roof, using a piece of tin. When he reaches the lower end it picks up the tin with its beak, and flies to the top again for another glide. Really seems to have fun .. :)

Well they had more than 160 million years to evolve, obviously a kind of human intelligence was not necessary for their survival. They are the real successors of the dinosaurs - the latter did not die out, they just adapted to the changing environment.

[Skybird]

It's very hard NOT to anthropomorphise in a situation like this, however the level of intelligence of dolphins cannot be underestimated, they are remarkable creatures. A lot of people also underestimate corvids, dismissing them as vermin, and yet they are also incredibly intelligent, fashioning tools and utilising mans environment to their gain (dropping hard nuts at pedestrian traffic crossings, so the traffic crushes the nut and then they take the food while the traffic stops and people cross).
I have read three years ago or so that the picture of bird intelligence has been practically rewritten in the past ten years or so, completely revolutionizing science'S linking of brain structures of birds to their intelligence. Many bird species seem to be far more intelligent than previously was assumed possible when looking at their brain structure, with raven corvids and parrot-like birds just being the most obvious examples.

On dolphins, there are so many stories about dolphins having come to the rescue of humans, on the other hand this strange attraction dolphins have for us, that I think that by the mere number of such reports, there must be something more than just some reflexes and automatted response schemes. I indeed could imagine that dolphins are aware of us and our intelligence as much as we are aware of theirs. Same is true for other dolphin and whale species. Two summers ago, a young roe deer fell into the channel over here and could not get out,t he walls were over one meter high, vertical, it would have been impossible for it to get out by itself. It also was in distress and in a life-endangering situation, like this dolphin. But the deer avoided the helping hands, and instead swam into the middle of the channel, furiously struggling to get away from the humans wanting to help it.

(The story's end: I waved to a motorboat coming along then and explained the skipper what was going on and that he could help. They got alongside the deer then and pulled it out. I assume it ended up in the zoo or some animal caretaking station, via the police. The mother would not have accepted it again.)

Some species approach us for curiosity, and a desire to play with something unknown. But with some species approaching us, I think there is some more going on than just this.

Just days ago a new study compared the intelligence of the average dog with that of a 2-3 year old child. And whole dog are used to humans and have inherited traits that enable them to read and understand our gestures and mimic, dogs by far are not the most intelligent animals there are. - As a girlfriend of mine once said: there are humans, and there are animals. And then there are cats. :D

[Catfish]

Found the video, wonder whether it is a corvid though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA

(it is a corvid: a daw (or jackdaw?)


That' even more like it .. stealing a fisherman's catch by pulling the string out of the water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9q125TSI

[Jimbuna]

Well for me that original clip was quite refreshing to see...man out of his normal environment and not acting as a predator.

[Catfish]

Well for me that original clip was quite refreshing to see...man out of his normal environment and not acting as a predator.

Of course it was :), and @Skybird thanks for posting, but i assume that while some humans may be kind or help animals, most others don't give a d ... and that's sickening.
It is us destroying the oceans and the barrier reef. Talking about an 'environment' automatically implies that we as the human race would be living outside of it, and virtually not also depend on and live in it.

When i look at the garbage outside cities, poisoned grounds and the general conduct humans have towards animals and even each other, it makes me vomit, and some nice photos from Hawaii or wherever .. ah hell i liked the video, of course.
:oops:

[August]

I wonder what Jesus would mean to an octopus, without an 8-armed cross.


Nailing those tentacles to a round disc would illustrate the concept pretty well i'd think...

[Stealhead]

Of course it was :), and @Skybird thanks for posting, but i assume that while some humans may be kind or help animals, most others don't give a d ... and that's sickening.
It is us destroying the oceans and the barrier reef. Talking about an 'environment' automatically implies that we as the human race would be living outside of it, and virtually not also depend on and live in it.

When i look at the garbage outside cities, poisoned grounds and the general conduct humans have towards animals and even each other, it makes me vomit, and some nice photos from Hawaii or wherever .. ah hell i liked the video, of course.
:oops:

Flip side of the coin though if some other thing where dominate would it be any different? We are following natures way realize it or not I say.Natural selection the best "man" or "beast" wins.But if they become too large in numbers and fail to adapt (with or without high intelligence) sooner or later they will die off in some shape or form.It is believed that what wiped out the
dinosaurs was that they became too adapted to a specific environment
when the environment changed they where so adapted to a certain way that they where unable survive when a serious change came along.

I think that is just the way of things since the earth has been around there have been many things that where the predominate species sooner or later something happened and they died off and something else took the top slot.
It is just the way things are.Even if we where perfect things could still occur that would wipe us out.

Humans are not a disease we are simply part of the cycle that has been going on for billions of years.who knows what might have come before us that we do not yet even know or about or may never know about.Perhaps the dolphin does know something that we don't know.

[Sailor Steve]

While I too think dolphins are extremely intelligent within their own limitations, and I love seeing them interact with humans, I think that relative intelligence can be define with one question: do dolphins, or any other animal for that matter, sit around discussing whether humans are intelligent? They may be self aware, but do they have any concept of future and past? Any philosophical ideas at all? Of course they may think and communicate on a wholly different level we can't understand, but we don't seem to have any way of detecting that yet.

I'd sure like to know, though.

[GT182]

I always figured dolphins and whales are the most intelligent creatures on earth. You never hear of them starting a war or doing any of the stupid things we humans do. If fact they say nothing, that we can understand, that would make us any wiser. I do believe tho that they laugh at us while they play. ;)

[Sailor Steve]

I always figured dolphins and whales are the most intelligent creatures on earth.
Maybe. They're not very good at communicating it, though.

You never hear of them starting a war or doing any of the stupid things we humans do.
They don't have hands. They can't build tools.

If fact they say nothing, that we can understand, that would make us any wiser.
Maybe they're smart enough to know better. On the other hand, maybe they don't have anything to say.

I do believe tho that they laugh at us while they play. ;)
Maybe. Or maybe they seem to laugh because it's the only thing they know how to do.

[Catfish]

There was a tribe, i guess in South America (?), where it was culturally forbidden to make tools. People had to do it all by hand, by initiation rituals, to be accepted at all. Seems using tools is regarded as a weakness.
Ok they will never reach the moon that way, but will they be less happy ?

If religion brings you to believe in the virgin Maria or in that you are faring best while wiping others out, not using tools does not seem to be soo bad, in comparison, as a religion or cultural understanding.

Greetings,
Catfish



OT I always figured that with the ascent of computer and better education, things like the Shariah or even catholicism might die out or at least change, but i see those wackoes just use computers to make web sites about their religion, while condemning the very technology they use all day and that made it all possible.

Maybe i would make a website which shows that computer just cannot work. I guess i could have millions of followers if i just do it right .. :88)

[Oberon]

Found the video, wonder whether it is a corvid though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA

(it is a corvid: a daw (or jackdaw?)


That' even more like it .. stealing a fisherman's catch by pulling the string out of the water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9q125TSI

Jackdaws are corvids. :yep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwVhrrDvwPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5_DuZ8WuMM


As much as I would love to attribute the sort of intelligence that precludes the use of armed conflict to intelligent animals, I suspect that if corvids or dolphins were able to perfect missile technology, they would use it against each other as they are driven by the same basic instincts and forces that drive us. Pity really, but we are, at a basic level, only animals ourselves.

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/21146455

[August]

Ok they will never reach the moon that way, but will they be less happy ?


I don't suspect they would be very happy. Without tools their lives must be very difficult and short.