Hostages 'escape Algeria captors'

[Jimbuna]

A small piece of positive news on this potentially deadly situation.

I certainly don't see their demand that France pulls its soldiers out of Mali being met.


A number of hostages have escaped the Islamist militants who took them captive at a gas facility in eastern Algeria, media and officials say.
Details of the escape and the numbers involved remain unclear, but some 30-40 Algerians and 15-25 foreign nationals were reported to have escaped.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21060323

[Skybird]

Algerian helicopter assault leaves "dozens" of hostages dead, one dozen terrorists should have been killed, too. Current status unclear. Source: various German news.

[MH]

Seems all but 7 hostages killed?
Something went terribly wrong there.....

[BossMark]

Somebody's buggered up here big style :nope:

[Bilge_Rat]

These operations are always tricky and anyone can make a mistake, but the Algerian military simply does not have the expertise for this.

[Skybird]

These operations are always tricky and anyone can make a mistake, but the Algerian military simply does not have the expertise for this.
Soime Wetsern special units may have it. But whether politicians would have the guts to order them to become active, is something different. Today, we solve conflicts by negotiating and finally making some payment, to give the other side the chance to save its face, and to demonstrate that we understand the social complexity of a situation that roots in a precious foreign culture.

Too subtle for some of the scum haunting human life on this planet, it seems. Say about Islamic terrorists what yiu want: they often display a level of determination and unscrupulousness that we do not have. Reminds me of the wars in the medieval, in the unholy land. European armies better armed, Muslim armies death-defying.

I think this difference in mentality and motivation is most important. Soldiers volunteering for UN missions probably do not understand that when dreaming of helping to build schools and dig dwells and repair bridges. While their opponent is dreaming of little heaps of cut-off children arms because they showed sings of having gotten an injection by medical aid workers.

[Oberon]

It's certainly looking like there may have been a blood bath there, which, it be honest, is little surprise. As soon as the Algerian military began their attack, the hostages lives were over.
There's going to be a lot of finger pointing at the Algerian military, but to be honest in the fortunes of warfare any military of the world could have faced the same problems with a similar outcome, all it takes is for one guard to raise the alarm and a quick slice of a knife or the pull of a trigger and fission mailed.
Certainly the odds are better the more advanced a military you have, but there is still the risk of hostages getting killed since there are so many ways of ensuring that even if the hostage takers are killed the hostages don't escape alive, dead mans switches for example.

A sad outcome though, and my thoughts go out to the families of those affected by this.

[Stealhead]

Well even during 1980 SAS rescue at the Iranian Embassy which went over fairly well one hostage was killed during the assault.

Such situations are very hard to handle the only thing you can have at best is skill,speed and violence of action hopefully the assaulting force can manage to kill most of the hostiles before they can do much harm.It seems now though that any planned hostage taking will go like the Moscow theater and the school siege in Beslan a few years later.The terrorists having rigged the building and people in such a case what choice do you have? Of course the Algerian military has nothing near the experience that the Russian or Western elite forces have.

[Jimbuna]

A sad outcome though, and my thoughts go out to the families of those affected by this.

Yes....we take what little positives we can :yep:

[Tribesman]

These operations are always tricky and anyone can make a mistake, but the Algerian military simply does not have the expertise for this.

Of course the Algerian military has nothing near the experience that the Russian or Western elite forces have.

They had a long run of terrorism followed by 10 years of civil war followed by another ongoing 11 years of terrorism, each phase has involved lots of hostage situations, so it is a bit rich to say they don't have the experience or expertise in these matters.

[Stealhead]

Well if the hostages all die after they try a traditional style military assault rather than a more precise assault in the manner of the SAS in 1980 or the GSG-9 in 1977 those people may not have all died.

Just because they have hostage incidents in the past means nothing the out come of those may also have gone poorly in many cases.


Show me where they have the "expertise" if you don't mind in managing to rescue hostages with success.

More than likely their government has a "too bad" policy when it comes to these things."Too bad you got taken hostage we do not negotiate we just waste them maybe you'll
survive maybe we'll just shoot you and blame the terrorists." That sounds like their "expertise".

[Tribesman]

More than likely their government has a "too bad" policy when it comes to these things."Too bad you got taken hostage we do not negotiate we just waste them maybe you'll
survive maybe we'll just shoot you and blame the terrorists." That sounds like their "expertise".
Actually that sounds like the Russian experts you said they couldn't match.

That post is the 2nd time you have made mention of the Iranian siege in London.
Can you tell me how a move against a very isolated industrial complex in the middle of the desert is in any way comparable to an assault on a main road in the middle of a densely populated city launched from the adjoining buildings?

[Skybird]

Well if the hostages all die after they try a traditional style military assault rather than a more precise assault in the manner of the SAS in 1980 or the GSG-9 in 1977 those people may not have all died.

Just because they have hostage incidents in the past means nothing the out come of those may also have gone poorly in many cases.


Show me where they have the "expertise" if you don't mind in managing to rescue hostages with success.

More than likely their government has a "too bad" policy when it comes to these things."Too bad you got taken hostage we do not negotiate we just waste them maybe you'll
survive maybe we'll just shoot you and blame the terrorists." That sounds like their "expertise".

Actually the Algerian military has a special force which was formed by example of and got trained by French special forces, Russian Spetsnatz and American SWAT. And do not underestimate the French just because they are "the Frencies". Their counter terror intelligence is amongst the very best in the world, and their special forces are said to be very good - and uncompromised - as well.

The Algerian inner politics still is a labyrinth of interests and claims for power, and the conflict between the state and religious extremists is still seething on small flame. Possible that some rivalry between political and military figures led to some military leader having taken the initiative and giving order to attack. Possible also that the government still recalls the imminent past of much more openly carried out conflict and thus did not allow to get pulled down into the swamp by endlessly tolerating the situation without trying to gain the initiative and destroying the enemy that it knows so very well.

I do not necessarily agree with the Western dogma that at all costs the hostages go first, because by that you demonstrate that kidnapping and blackmailing pays off and you encourage future acts of this kind. In cases like this, I subscribe to a policy that is quite simple: no negotiations, no compensations, the hostages free and unharmed, and now - or the attackers dead. But no negotiations. It's bitter, and in the individual case it may look inhumane. But to invite even more, even a widening of such acts because one plays soft on the initial case that started it all, to me is even more inhumane for over time it multiplies the number of victims, and the costs.

[Jimbuna]

There are sources out there saying the siege is not yet over:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/18/uk-sahara-crisis-idUKBRE90F1K220130118

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21077290

[Skybird]

German news sources also say that around 650 hostages were freed during the Algerian attack. That attack thus cannot have been that misled as some people seem to have thought.

The group has announced to attack other facilities as well. The Algerians will be pleased to hear that.

Digest this for a moment: stupid EU idiots seriously want(ed?) to build huge solar farms in these deserts for electricity production that then got delivered to Europe. Of course, so was the plan, they wanted to depend on these solar farms to get rid of their dependency from Russian and ME oil and gas. :haha: Bosch and Siemens have pulled their plugs in that project meanwhile - thankfully.

[Jimbuna]

I'd predict Europe would soon be experiencing regular blackouts as their dependancy grew with regard to solar power.

[eddie]

Looks like the end has finally come. Not good though, but at least its over.

Until the next time it happens, this won't be the last of it, sadly.

http://news.msn.com/world/18-dead-as-algeria-stages-final-assault-on-gas-plant

[Jimbuna]

So much for it being a heavily fortified compound :hmm2:

[eddie]

You know Jim, everyone is questioning how the Algerians responded to this incident. I was reading an article on MSN and it looks like the Algerians took a page out of the Russian handbook on how to deal with hostage takers. here's the quote-

"An international outcry mounted over the Algerians' handling of the crisis. Experts noted that this is how they have always dealt with terrorists.
"It's the Russian training for dealing with terrorism," said Matieu Guidere, a longtime expert on al-Qaida and Algeria. "The message is: We will terrorize the terrorists. ... This is clear. The life of hostages is nothing in the balance."

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/18/16590460-details-emerge-in-militant-takeover-rescue-operation-at-algeria-gas-field?lite

[Jimbuna]

Well it was certainly effective in one context if just a bit costly in another.

Once hostage takers are prepared to give up their own lives I reckon the authorities quickly run out of options.

[Jimbuna]

Just noticed this follow up article....apparently it is thought that some of the terrorists have been captured alive.

There are still some hostages unnacounted for:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21110274

[eddie]

Its going to be a while before this is all sorted out. And who knows how forthcoming the Algerians will be once the dust settles.

[Jimbuna]

I think they'll be under immense pressure internationally to bring justice to a swift conclusion.

[eddie]

I think Algeria is also sending a message to anyone inside their country, who harbor thoughts of an Islamic takeover,it is going to be dealt with in a very harsh manner.

[Tribesman]

I think Algeria is also sending a message to anyone inside their country, who harbor thoughts of an Islamic takeover,it is going to be dealt with in a very harsh manner.

The same message they have been sending for a couple of decades then.

[Jimbuna]

I think Algeria is also sending a message to anyone inside their country, who harbor thoughts of an Islamic takeover,it is going to be dealt with in a very harsh manner.

Quite possibly.

[Jimbuna]

The body count and number of terrorists captured keep changing but up to now this is the Algerian count:

37 foreigners of 8 nationalities and 1 Algerian dead

29 terrorists killed and 3 captured

5 hostages still missing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21127646

[eddie]

The body count gets worse everyday. All this carnage, and what has changed. Nothing.

[Tribesman]

The body count gets worse everyday. All this carnage, and what has changed. Nothing.

Some things are bound to have been changed
I bet BP will have changed its special bonus payments to people who work in places like this.