Catholic Transparency...

[Skybird]

[rage&anger]

... or: how amongst equals, some are more equal than others.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-catholic-church-cancels-sex-abuse-scandal-inquiry-a-876612.html

I have complained so often about that religions in general and the church in special want to put themselves aside from the usual general laws valid for everybody else. Here, the charges are about rape and abuse in hundreds of cases - and the church claims right to decide when enough research has been done, wants to decide what info is to be revealed and what not, wants to decide on the results and charges being published or not, and to what degree, wants to dictate the rules by which prosecutors and analysts shall do their criminalistic work?

It seems the bishops and the church once again do what they always do best: being rimless anusses whose size only gets exceeded by the ammount of their arrogance and righteousness, the diameter of their glorioles, and the monumental shadows cast by their perfectly complacent egos.

Oh you holy ones, I spit in your faces, you bigot hypocritical parasitic scum. :nope:

Experts and analysts familiar with the matter of pedophilia and sexual abuse in the church say the opposition in the church to independent research is enormous, since the number of "incidents" is far greater than is being mentioned in public debate, and also threatens the church'S status of being able to evade criminal law due to regulations that rule that church law is equal to and in parts superior to the state's law. That'S why criminal investigations against priests often get supressed and the church is allowed to move the suspect silently away.

Every ordinary citizen being suspect in a case of rape and pedophilia would be made feeling the full strength of the law and police procedures.

Why I am so enraged? I know one family that is effected by these crimes, directly. They are totally shocked by today's news. And they are furious, like hundreds of rape victims are across the country, no doubt.

The suspect brought to court over charges and in prinmciple already has confessed guilty, demands to decide on the judges, the laws, and the final verdict. :dead:

Lesson of the story: it pays off better to be a swine than an ordinary animal.

[/rage&anger]

[GoldenRivet]

in fairness it appears they canceled an independent research group's research and investigation (which the church was funding) they did not cancel any official state sponsored investigation (as they have no power to do so) any state sponsored investigation and research would continue unabated if i understand the article correctly

[AVGWarhawk]

It's always the Catholics in the news concerning sexual abuse. From what I understand the Rabbis are busy with it in their own right. I wonder why not much is mentioned about it? Maybe it is the news sources I read.

[Cybermat47]

They should be ashamed of themselves. They claim to be men of God, but they rape children, and promote homophobia.

Skybird, let's go to the Vatican and spit on their faces :D

[Penguin]

I know someone who works for the Catholic Church in Germany who was on a job training about sexual abuse. The church representative said that in case anyone of the workers discover abuse, they should report it first to the church so they can deal with it internally first.
They all shook their heads and replied among: "Ehhm, no way! We would actually commit a criminal offense if we didn't immediately report any sign of abuse to the authorities!"

The internal control worked very well for this German priest, who was send to to South Africa after his abuse became public, of course only for job reasons. So well that he still receives 800 Euro per month from the church, they certainly look out for their sheep. :mad:
http://www.express.de/duesseldorf/gerichts-skandal-im-verfahren-kinderschaender-pfarrer--platzt-jetzt-der-prozess-,2858,17267354.html German source only, sorry
@sky: I know there are better sources, but this article includes all the important details, you'll find many other articles about this man

It's always the Catholics in the news concerning sexual abuse. From what I understand the Rabbis are busy with it in their own right. I wonder why not much is mentioned about it? Maybe it is the news sources I read.

A reason is certainly that they have less surpressed sexuality as they are allowed to marry, same goes for Protestant priests.

[Skybird]

in fairness it appears they canceled an independent research group's research and investigation (which the church was funding) they did not cancel any official state sponsored investigation (as they have no power to do so) any state sponsored investigation and research would continue unabated if i understand the article correctly
No, the "cooperation" was brokered by political demand after the church got under severe pressure "to do something about it", the head of the institute is a known face over here and often an advisor to the media over commenting on legal and criminalistic procedures, and the research task force consists of former crime investigators, judges and researchers for several laywer offices.

In other words it already starts that charges for rape and pedophile abuse in hundreds of cases got not handed over to the state attorney and the police, but thechurch was allowed to once again "save its face" by making it all a non-official deal that was presented as something that got voluntarily initiated by the church - which it never was: the took so much flak that they had no other chance than to give in to the demand which in principle was a public relations coup on their behalf.

The real scandal is that there is no state attorney and no police raiding the churches offices, and still no sexual offenders in priest's cloathes being arrested and serving prison time. Double standards in the justice system.

Some weeks ago, I have not taken too much note of it, another bishop in Germany already had unilaterally declared another, more localised investigation initiative as successfully ended. Consequences: none. Arrests: none. Names mentioned: none.

This is law-evasion by criminal offenders and rapists, and this is conspiracy to hide them. In other words: it is organised crime.

That religious claims are enough to make you immune from legal prosecution, and give you the right to live by your own, self-made laws, is outraging. It does not matter which religion it is, and the context also does not matter. The law has to be valid for and in case of crime has to be enforced against everybody, on the fundament of equality, no matter whether the subject is rich or poor, believer or secularist or non-believer. Banker or flower girl, priest or atheist: it must not matter.

The Catholic church law, and religions special tax status must be abandoned. Same is true regarding Jewish and Muhammeddan equivalents (parallel and underground justice systems are undermining the legal system, and the police say they actively help organised crime as well as crime and violence in private homes by hiding it).

[Skybird]

I know someone who works for the Catholic Church in Germany who was on a job training about sexual abuse. The church representative said that in case anyone of the workers discover abuse, they should report it first to the church so they can deal with it internally first.
They all shook their heads and replied among: "Ehhm, no way! We would actually commit a criminal offense if we didn't immediately report any sign of abuse to the authorities!"

The internal control worked very well for this German priest, who was send to to South Africa after his abuse became public, of course only for job reasons. So well that he still receives 800 Euro per month from the church, they certainly look out for their sheep. :mad:
http://www.express.de/duesseldorf/gerichts-skandal-im-verfahren-kinderschaender-pfarrer--platzt-jetzt-der-prozess-,2858,17267354.html German source only, sorry
@sky: I know there are better sources, but this article includes all the important details, you'll find many other articles about this man



A reason is certainly that they have less surpressed sexuality as they are allowed to marry, same goes for Protestant priests.
Ah. Its all about nursing the offender and protecting the institutions' prestige. The victims, their lives: leave them to the waste disposal service. By the hundreds, if not thousands.

Late 2010, I think, m there was this church guy on TV, bishop, or priest or whatever he was, a fool in hilarious cloathing, and he said that now it had been enough of attacking the abusers, and that now the time should have come when Christian forgiveness takes over and the anger is being settled peacefully. That forgiving is a Christian duty.

I almost imploded back then in outrage.

[Cybermat47]

Forgiving is a Christian duty.

It is, but these people can hardly call themselves Christian if they shelter paedophiles. :nope:

[Armistead]

One of the best debates ever with the late Chris Hitchens and Fry debating against Catholic leaders..

"Is the Catholic Church a force for good"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctXgOj6AEkk

[HundertzehnGustav]

[rage&anger]
Oh you holy ones, I spit in your faces, you bigot hypocritical parasitic scum. :nope:
[/rage&anger]
signed,
Angel Bob Léon

[Cybermat47]

"Is the Catholic Church a force for good"

Or, in other words, "Does the Messiah encourage paedophilia and homophobia?"

I have nothing against Catholics, but the Vatican is just stupid. I'm pretty sure that our Lord would want his people to donate that massive wealth to starving children, not use it to buy stupid robes. Honestly. Those robes have turned my religion into a joke.

[HundertzehnGustav]

you mean the Robes, or the clothes?
Or both?:D

[Cybermat47]

you mean the Robes, or the clothes?
Or both?:D

Probably both :sunny:

[Tribesman]

It is, but these people can hardly call themselves Christian if they shelter paedophiles.
How can you say that?
The bible says....
"Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not"

[Cybermat47]

How can you say that?
The bible says....
"Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not"

You're trusting the Bible!?

To misquote Terrance Dicks:

The homophobes and paedophiles had tinkered with it and souped it up over the years, until it was capable of a remarkable degree of discrimination and hypocrisy.

And I know you were joking, but the bible just TICKS ME OFF!

[Sailor Steve]

And I know you were joking, but the bible just TICKS ME OFF!
How can you call yourself a Christian then? The Bible is the only original source for the life of Christ. Everything else stems from that.

[Skybird]

It is, but these people can hardly call themselves Christian if they shelter paedophiles. :nope:
The way you quote me give what I really said a total twist. I have not said myself nor is it my opinion what you quoted me with.

Beyond that, forgiveness seen as a duty is no forgiveness, but duress. So, no, there is no Christian duty to forgive. A therapeutic recommendation maybe, a advice or encouragement, but not a duty or obligation

The pope says that obedience towards the church shall be the believer's most important duty (told to the American public during his welcome in the US). Not obedience to God, or the gospel or moral principles - the church, which is the most profane instance of them all.

Now that explains a bit why that Bishop tried to silence criticism and gloss of the church hiding pedophile rapists by telling the public that forgiveness shall be mandatory for Christians, eh? ;)

[Skybird]

One of the best debates ever with the late Chris Hitchens and Fry debating against Catholic leaders..


Now a classic.

[Skybird]

Just in: the Catholic church has filed a formal notice of distringas against the director of the institute who is engaged with the the project. He should stop saying that the church wants to censor the study's findings and he should stop to encourage victims for cooperation and asking them for allowing interviews about their cases.

A well-known theologist from the city I live in menawhile voiced his suspicion that a monumental fight for power is leading the bishops to trying to prevent the study, fearing the sheer dimension of the revelation about the crimes. In the past couple of years Germany has seen a wave of revelations about sexual abuse and pedophile rape in the church, Kindergardens and in schools of the so-called reform-pedagogical spectrum.

In other words the bishops try to isolate the victims even more.

The director so far refused to comment, just giving an announcement that he wants to seek juristic advisory before commenting.

Politicians and victim groups have started to nuke the church, literally.

This all will backfire against the church. :Kaleun_Salivating: Not that there is much reputation left that could get lost.

P.S. German reform-pedagogic - another thing I love so very very damn much. It's another term for "education to dilettantism".

[HundertzehnGustav]

The only thing left of the church should be the building.
The bible is nothing but a piece of propaganda and soap opera of over 2000 years ago. and a Bad one at that!

"...ich glaube an die heilige katholische kirche..."

my rear fender! I always skip that part.

Just Yesterday i buried my grandmom. And the love she gave us as kids, the "Robe" quickly pretended the source of that love was not my Grandmom, but that source was God and Jesus.

I sat there, and wanted to nuke that mofo for using the good qualities of my Grandmother in order to pour propaganda on our Heads, God is the source of all love, and the catholic church distributes that love in the mess and the celebrations n stuff.


Church... [random insults]

[Penguin]

The only thing left of the church should be the building.
The bible is nothing but a piece of propaganda and soap opera of over 2000 years ago. and a Bad one at that!

"...ich glaube an die heilige katholische kirche..."

my rear fender! I always skip that part.

Just Yesterday i buried my grandmom. And the love she gave us as kids, the "Robe" quickly pretended the source of that love was not my Grandmom, but that source was God and Jesus.

I sat there, and wanted to nuke that mofo for using the good qualities of my Grandmother in order to pour propaganda on our Heads, God is the source of all love, and the catholic church distributes that love in the mess and the celebrations n stuff.


Church... [random insults]

I feel you Gustav, and my condolences.
I had the same thing 2 weeks ago when I attented my granny-in-law's funeral, also in a catholic church. She was also a good person, certainly inspired by Christianity, but she did good deeds on her own, not because the church wanted her to do so.
It was very different from my own grandmother's funeral, who had an evangelic funeral. There I felt that the event was really about her and didn't feel like attending a long commercial break for the church.

[Hottentot]

It was very different from my own grandmother's funeral, who had an evangelic funeral. There I felt that the event was really about her and didn't feel like attending a long commercial break for the church.

Yeah, this has been my experience as well from the Lutheran funerals, not that I have any experience of Catholic or any other ones. Though it did feel silly when I was attending my grandfather's funeral and there was this priest going on and on about how good man he was. Well sure, he was. But dude, you didn't, like, ever meet him or know him. You're just there telling everyone of us, his relatives, what a great guy this complete stranger was. I bet you didn't even write that speech yourself.

Personally I hope the only eulogy I'll have will be a letter written by me, myself and I. It will be very short and to the point: "I'm dead. What the bloody heck do you dolts still want?! Just go take your free coffee and cake and stop bothering me already!"

[AVGWarhawk]

,2858,17267354.html[/url]


A reason is certainly that they have less surpressed sexuality as they are allowed to marry, same goes for Protestant priests.


No sir, the sexual abuse among the Rabbi is as numerous as the Catholics.

[Armistead]

How can you call yourself a Christian then? The Bible is the only original source for the life of Christ. Everything else stems from that.


Which bible or should I say which scripts? There is nothing original about the bible.

[Sailor Steve]

Which bible or should I say which scripts? There is nothing original about the bible.
Also true. My point was that you can't claim to follow someone whose life is taken from one source, and then claim to not believe the source.

[sharkbit]

Personally I hope the only eulogy I'll have will be a letter written by me, myself and I. It will be very short and to the point: "I'm dead. What the bloody heck do you dolts still want?! Just go take your free coffee and cake and stop bothering me already!"

:har: :har:

:)

[Cybermat47]

How can you call yourself a Christian then? The Bible is the only original source for the life of Christ. Everything else stems from that.

Eh. There's only one sentence in any Christian literature that I'm going to take literally. 'Love thy Neighbour as you love yourself.'

[Sailor Steve]

Eh. There's only one sentence in any Christian literature that I'm going to take literally. 'Love thy Neighbour as you love yourself.'
You might be interested to know that at least 20 people said that same thing long before Christ was born.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

My point is still the same: There is only one source for the very existence of Jesus. How does one claim to be his follower and refuse to acknowledge that source?

[Cybermat47]

I do acknowledge the Bible, but I also recognise that people have changed it other the centuries. I mean, I really can't believe that a God who loves everyone would punish some people merely because of their sexuality. It's my theory that all those writings about non-believers burning in hell were simply added to control people out of fear, to forcefully stop them from leaving their faith. That's the reason the bible annoys me.

And what do you mean only one source for his very existence? Jesus was a genuine historical figure who was born in Bethlehem, spread his message of love and forgiveness, and was crucified by the Romans. Even Richard Dawkins thinks so! Wether or not he was a divine being, a prophet or a rambling lunatic is open to debate.

[Takeda Shingen]

I do acknowledge the Bible, but I also recognise that people have changed it other the centuries. I mean, I really can't believe that a God who loves everyone would punish some people merely because of their sexuality. It's my theory that all those writings about non-believers burning in hell were simply added to control people out of fear, to forcefully stop them from leaving their faith. That's the reason the bible annoys me.

I fail to see how you can call yourself a Christian when you blatently reject Christian scripture. Every single Christian denomination holds that the Bible, whichever version they endorse, is the Word of God. You cannot dismiss that and claim to be a Christian.

[Cybermat47]

I don't reject it entirely. But can you really entirely trust a book that in some places says "The all-merciful Lord said 'I don't like gays, I think I'll subject them to eternal torture'"?

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't reject it entirely. But can you really entirely trust a book that in some places says "The all-merciful Lord said 'I don't like gays, I think I'll subject them to eternal torture'"?

So, which parts to you consider true, and which do you consider false? Do you reject the 10 Commandments? The Immaculate Conception? The Sermon on the Mount?

[Cybermat47]

Well, I reject the parts that are in conflict with other parts, like God loving everyone and hating gays.

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, I reject the parts that are in conflict with other parts, like God loving everyone and hating gays.

You didn't answer my question. We'll just start with one of them. Do you reject the 10 Commandments?

[Cybermat47]

No, I don't reject the Ten Commandments. They're a good set of laws.



Also, one part I consider false is the Garden of Eden. Modern discoveries such as the Theory of Evoloution make more sense. But, I have nothing against the story. It was made in a time when there was no concept of evoloution.

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, one part I consider false is the Garden of Eden. Modern discoveries such as the Theory of Evoloution make more sense. But, I have nothing against the story. It was made in a time when there was no concept of evoloution.

Do. You. Believe. In. The. Ten. Commandments.

[Cybermat47]

Do. You. Believe. In. The. Ten. Commandments.

Refresh. Page. Look. Up.

[Takeda Shingen]

Don't get snippy because you decided to edit in your comment after I posted.

What is the Second Commandment?

[Cybermat47]

What is the Second Commandment?

"Do not have any other gods before me"

OR

"Do not make a carving-a graven image of anything that is in heaven"

[Takeda Shingen]

"Do not have any other gods before me"

OR

"Do not make a carving-a graven image of anything that is in heaven"

Exactly. In other words, don't make your own god of your choosing. And by cherry picking what tenets of Christianity you follow, you are doing just that; making a god in you own image. What you have then is your own brand of spirituality, which is just fine. However, you can't call it Christianity no more than you could call it Shintoism because you reject it's teachings.

[August]

One can doubt the bibles accuracy but still be a Christian. All one has to do is look for the meaning behind the words rather than take the words as unadorned historical fact which is what I believe was the intention of the writers.

[Sailor Steve]

IAnd what do you mean only one source for his very existence? Jesus was a genuine historical figure who was born in Bethlehem, spread his message of love and forgiveness, and was crucified by the Romans. Even Richard Dawkins thinks so! Wether or not he was a divine being, a prophet or a rambling lunatic is open to debate.
There are actually three. Josephus and Tacitus both interviewed Christians to find out what the fuss was about, and recorded what they were told. That's it. Two second-hand sources and the Bible, which doesn't give a single account claiming to be eye-witness, except for Paul's account of his conversion.

So your statement of "a genuive historical figure who was born in Bethlehem, spread his message of love and forgiveness, and was crucified by the Romans" has not one single actual historical record. No Hebrew or Roman records of his birth, no external records of "spreading his message", no Roman records of the crucifixion. Nothing.

I'm not saying it isn't true. I don't claim to know. But historical records? Not a single one.

[Cybermat47]

Exactly. In other words, don't make your own god of your choosing. And by cherry picking what tenets of Christianity you follow, you are doing just that; making a god in you own image. What you have then is your own brand of spirituality, which is just fine. However, you can't call it Christianity no more than you could call it Shintoism because you reject it's teachings.



But isn't that also what the Catholic Church is doing? They've constructed the image of a God who critically punishes Homosexuality, and wants to stop abortions and voluntary euthanasia. The last 2 are terrible, terrible things, but in some cases are the best thing to do.

Also, the Catholic church was the only church that existed in Europe until Luther, so all Christian denominations stem from that.

And I don't see how I'm straying from either of those 2nd commandments. I'm only worshipping the God that is referred to in Christian texts, and I'm not carving images of him.

[Cybermat47]

I'm not saying it isn't true. I don't claim to know. But historical records? Not a single one.

Steve, you have a unique talent. You can be absolutely polite to someone while destroying their argument. No wonder you were made a moderator!

[Takeda Shingen]

But isn't that also what the Catholic Church is doing? They've constructed the image of a God who critically punishes Homosexuality, and wants to stop abortions and voluntary euthanasia. The last 2 are terrible, terrible things, but in some cases are the best thing to do.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God

Also, the Catholic church was the only church that existed in Europe until Luther, so all Christian denominations stem from that.

Because they all follow the same basic tenets, which you reject.

And I don't see how I'm straying from either of those 2nd commandments. I'm only worshipping the God that is referred to in Christian texts, and I'm not carving images of him.

You are worshiping a god that does not hold to the tenets of Christianity. As such, you are worshiping what may be a beautiful deity, but it isn't a Christian one. That violates the Second Commandment. Idols are not always physical.

[Sailor Steve]

But isn't that also what the Catholic Church is doing? They've constructed the image of a God who critically punishes Homosexuality, and wants to stop abortions and voluntary euthanasia. The last 2 are terrible, terrible things, but in some cases are the best thing to do.
Yes, and most of us agree, or else this thread wouldn't be here. My only disagreement with you, and apparently Tak's, is in picking and choosing your faith and still calling yourself a Christian.

And I don't see how I'm straying from either of those 2nd commandments. I'm only worshipping the God that is referred to in Christian texts, and I'm not carving images of him.
I don't know what you actually believe, because I don't know you, but it seems that what you are doing here is worshipping your concept of the God of the Bible, but only as far as you feel like. If you disagree with a text you reject it, which is fine, but at what point have you actually stopped believing in God as the texts teach and started believing in one of your own creation? Picking and choosing is a dangerous game, as Thomas Jefferson found out when he made his own New Testament.

Steve, you have a unique talent. You can be absolutely polite to someone while destroying their argument. No wonder you were made a moderator!
Whatever 'talent' I have is based on a lifetime of being wrong. I've finally reached a point at which I don't trust anything that isn't fact. Fact is something that can actually be shown as being fact, something that can be proven. The truth is that I've been wrong (and apologized for it) so many times on these forums that I've long since lost count.

As for being a moderator, that was something different entirely. And I've been wrong there more than once as well.

[Cybermat47]

You are worshiping a god that does not hold to the tenets of Christianity.

You do realise that 70% of 'Christians' in my country actually reject those homophobic teachings as well, right? And I do have the right of self determination as well. How about I regard myself as Christian, but you regard me as Agnostic. That way we don't have to continue this back and forth argument that's eating up your time.

[Takeda Shingen]

You do realise that 70% of 'Christians' in my country actually reject those homophobic teachings as well, right? And I do have the right of self determination as well. How about I regard myself as Christian, but you regard me as Agnostic. That way we don't have to continue this back and forth argument that's eating up your time.

A few pages back you made a wholesale rejection of Christian scripture. That is fine, but you cannot reject scripture and call yourself an adherent to that scripture. That would be me claiming to be a Taoist while rejecting the Tao Te Ching. You tend to preface a lot of your arguments with the fact that you are a Christian, but this isn't necessarily so. As such, this distinction is very important for the purpose of having intellectually honest discussions.

Intellectual honesty is the central tenet of SubSim. :03:

[Sailor Steve]

You do realise that 70% of 'Christians' in my country actually reject those homophobic teachings as well, right? And I do have the right of self determination as well.
And I suppose you realize that an untold number of people who would classify themselves as "Christian" don't follow any tenants of Christ's teachings. They may go to church, but many of them don't. They don't really follow Jesus at all, yet if you scratch them they'll get their backs up and actually become angry that anyone would question their "faith". This is not to point a finger at anyone here, or anywhere else; it's only to point out that large numbers of people who would call themselves "Christian" are nothing of the kind.

And how many people who consider themselves good Christians actually follow this commandment from Jesus himself: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Or this one: "Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me"."

You see, you can regard yourself as anything you want. But if you truly want to be a follower, you have to ask yourself the question of how does God regard you?

[Cybermat47]

Intellectual honesty is the central tenet of SubSim. :03:

OK, here the honest truth about my religion, so that this thread focuses once more on corruption in the Catholic church, and less about my religion (which has been very flattering)

I'm a person who regards myself as Christian, supports Gay rights, wants the church to hold less power in determining laws, and just wants everyone to get along*





*Yes, I have hope that everyone will get along. You can tell I have very little knowledge of the world.

[Takeda Shingen]

OK, here the honest truth about my religion, so that this thread focuses once more on corruption in the Catholic church, and less about my religion (which has been very flattering)

I'm a person who regards myself as Christian, supports Gay rights, wants the church to hold less power in determining laws, and just wants everyone to get along*





*Yes, I have hope that everyone will get along. You can tell I have very little knowledge of the world.

You're missing the point. You use your version of spirituality in your aguments all the time. I am just telling you that if you are going to do that, you will be called out on it. You are young, and yes, you have very little knowedge of the world. That can be a very hard thing for someone your age, and you need to be prepared for when that happens on the boards; and it will. What is important is that you take something away from it, as I have not been arguing this point for my sake, but for your's.

[Cybermat47]

I have not been arguing this point for my sake, but for your's.

:o

Umm... This is very, very awkward.

:har:

Thanks anyway! :D

[Takeda Shingen]

:o

Umm... This is very, very awkward.

:har:

Thanks anyway! :D

Okay, you can laugh at me all you want, but you've set yourself up with a position so contradictory that it is indefensible. And you use that position as the leading edge in many of your arguments. A smart debater is going to see that hole in your defense and exploit it, but they probably won't be as nice and respectful as I was. And when that happens, you'll remember this conversation.

[Cybermat47]

Okay, you can laugh at me all you want, but you've set yourself up with a position so contradictory that it is indefensible. And you use that position as the leading edge in many of your arguments. A smart debater is going to see that hole in your defense and exploit it, but they probably won't be as nice and respectful as I was. And when that happens, you'll remember this conversation.

No, I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at my own stupidity.

[HundertzehnGustav]

There I felt that the event was really about her and didn't feel like attending a long commercial break for the church.

these words reflect pretty much how i felt. commercial. propaganda.
all i wanted that moment to be, was not about Christian religion and catholic church, but about the person.

a lifetime of effort, five kids, 20 grandkids, and a lot more sat there, and whilst i *suspect* (HOPE) there is something bigger than human knowledge, i wanted it to be about the person we all lost. Say goodbye to her, in a respectable, humble way.

I felt like a Hijacking of that person's good qualities - abused to glorify the qualities of God and the catholic church.

(just like i am Hijacking this thread to lose my ramblings and frustration instead of stayng on topic of church abusing and laying smokescreens... :D )

[HundertzehnGustav]

No, I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at my own stupidity.

Then not all is lost.

Takeda regularly plays the devil's advokate - not representing his personal opinion, but a different point of view than his interlocutor.
The result is that discussions become a kind of "thinking sport", turn into a duel of arguments - pretty much like chess.

I would never volunteer to play any kind of strategic and logic game against that man... because i can not do as you do : laugh about myself.
:D

[HundertzehnGustav]

And I suppose you realize that an untold number of people who would classify themselves as "Christian" don't follow any tenants of Christ's teachings. They may go to church, but many of them don't. They don't really follow Jesus at all, yet if you scratch them they'll get their backs up and actually become angry that anyone would question their "faith". This is not to point a finger at anyone here, or anywhere else; it's only to point out that large numbers of people who would call themselves "Christian" are nothing of the kind.

And how many people who consider themselves good Christians actually follow this commandment from Jesus himself: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Or this one: "Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me"."

You see, you can regard yourself as anything you want. But if you truly want to be a follower, you have to ask yourself the question of how does God regard you?


are those words and comma... thse recommendations not the deed of humans? Is this not an old tale? just a story so old and so twisted and so translated that is has no accuracy any more?
Censored, hashed up by the Hierarchy, interpreted time and again?

and if yes, are these texts that make up the bible of any good use at all - should we care about how god sees us?

Should we forgive because it is told to us, or should forgiveness come from a spontaneous source of will?
Same with our image to god: if we have a habit of checking oour doings in relation to what we are instruc... animated to do, is that still the right path?

If God knows, as i suspect he does, he knows when i forgive because of my own motivation to do so, and when i forgive because the rules say so in the hope of stacking up riches in heaven.
because even stacking up riches in heaven is stacking up riches. faking forgiveness in order to recieve...?
HMMMM fishy to me!:hmm2::shifty:

[Takeda Shingen]

Then not all is lost.

Takeda regularly plays the devil's advokate - not representing his personal opinion, but a different point of view than his interlocutor.
The result is that discussions become a kind of "thinking sport", turn into a duel of arguments - pretty much like chess.

I would never volunteer to play any kind of strategic and logic game against that man... because i can not do as you do : laugh about myself.
:D

:D

I admit that I do it, and rather often, although I am also known to argue my point of view. However, I try to do the latter less often, as I tend to get more emotionally involved in the argument, leading to heated exchanges. That being said, if I am doing it and it gets on anyone's nerves, or if you just are not in the mood for it that day, just say "hey Tak, not today, knock it off" and I will. I learn a lot about people and their views from the exercise, but I also know that it isn't something that everybody likes, or wants to do every day.

[HundertzehnGustav]

you have to sort of "play someone else", and thereby learn to imagine and appreciate other people's concerns , sort of "walk a mile in their shoes"
teaches you about life, priorities and is at the same time a good lesson in mental discipline , for all involved.
:up:

[Sailor Steve]

No, I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at my own stupidity.
Not stupidity, but ignorance. Not ignorance in the modern sense of being rude, but in the classical sense of lack of knowledge in certain areas.

Calling yourself stupid is actually a good thing, as long as it's in context, and in your case it looks like it is. It takes an intelligent person to recognize his mistakes, and a good person to be willing to admit them in public. At least I hope so, since I do it myself so much.

An honest appraisal: You come across as young (which you say you are), sometimes annoyingly so. That said, maybe I get annoyed because I've gotten so old. I don't have an answer for that. You also come across as bright, perceptive and eager to learn, which are real assets in any day and age. It may or may not get worse before it gets better. One of the hallmarks of the late teens through college years is the sudden realization that you know everything. With luck you'll avoid that trap. You also come across as one of the good ones. Try not to lose that. :sunny:

[Skybird]

No, I don't reject the Ten Commandments. They're a good set of laws.

Maybe you do not know that parts of the ten commandments as they are usually quoted today, are not complete, but hide some unwanted sentences.

May I quote German philosopher and speaker/director of the Giordano Bruno-foundation Michael Schmidt-Salomon, my own translation form the German:

The former German minister for social affairs and family, Ursula von der Leyen, announced in 2006 in front of running cameras, that "the first 19 articles of the German Basic Law (=German constitution) summarize the principles of the ten commandments." Who would have imagined that? It seems the minister has a very strange edition of the German constitution text. Because since when does the Basic Law legitimize religious compulsion and kin liability, slavery and the subordination of women under men - all that being content of the ten commandments? Or the other way around: since when do the ten commandments include "inviolable and inalienable human rights" (article 1), "the right to free development of his personality" (article 2), the equality of males and females before the law (article 3), " Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom to profess a religious or philosophical creed" (article 4), or the guaranteeing of free right for opinion, speech, media, arts and science (article 5) ? These rights are not only not included in the canon of the ten commandments, but they are even in direct and infusable opposition to the total general orientation of the Bible!

Some more on the variuous sets (!) of the ten commandments.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm

[August]

A commandment against coveting another mans wife is subordinating woman according to the wonderful world of religion hating Skybird. :roll:

[Skybird]

No, but a commandment listing women in one row with things and animals.

You also again practice flawed logic in your eagerness to go after me, because from a rule saying that a male should not commit adultry (at least the commandment did not list lesbians) you cannot conclude that this automatically means or equals a status of equality for women with regards to males. A male can perfectly commit adultry with a female slave. ;) It is in fact practiced in many parts of the world until today.

And just for the record, since this forum has made me allergic now to being misquoted: instead of "according to Skybird" you should have correctly written "according to Schmidt-Salomon". The book I took the quote from has the nice title "Keine Macht den Doofen". But I can also find a link to a pdf scripture of a speech he gave in 2008 where he is about this - and other stories - as well.

[August]

No, but a commandment listing women in one row with things and animals.

You also again practice flawed logic in your eagerness to go after me, because from a rule saying that a male should not commit adultry (at least the commandment did not list lesbians) you cannot conclude that this automatically means or equals a status of equality for women with regards to males. A male can perfectly commit adultry with a female slave. ;) It is in fact practiced in many parts of the world until today.

And just for the record, since this forum has made me allergic now to being misquoted: instead of "according to Skybird" you should have correctly written "according to Schmidt-Salomon". The book I took the quote from has the nice title "Keine Macht den Doofen". But I can also find a link to a pdf scripture of a speech he gave in 2008 where he is about this - and other stories - as well.

I care not for an obscure foreign propaganda piece written by some clown with an axe to grind. This is what, like the 1000th religion hating thread you've started over the years? You hate religion, we get the point.

And no, the 10th commandment isn't about sexual equality but neither does it mandate sexual INequality. That is your reaching interpretation. Ask any priest (assuming you wouldn't just burst into flame in their presence) and they will tell you that the 10th commandment applies to females coveting a neighbors husband as much as males coveting a neighbors wife.

[Hottentot]

I care not for an obscure foreign propaganda piece written by some clown with an axe to grind.

I suppose the nationality was again a strictly necessary factor in this?

[Dowly]

I suppose the nationality was again a strictly necessary factor in this?

Are you surprised? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

I care not for an obscure foreign propaganda piece written by some clown with an axe to grind. This is what, like the 1000th religion hating thread you've started over the years?
Wowh. You should consider a career as campaign manager. They need guys yelling like this.

Ask any priest (...) and they will tell you that the 10th commandment applies to females coveting a neighbors husband as much as males coveting a neighbors wife.
Parrots sounding like parrots - what a surprise.

And about me hating religion, as you put it. Well, not sure I agree with that formulation, I am more alarmed about it like I am alarmed about a lack of oxygen to breathe or like I am alarmed about a lack of water and food when being hungry and thirsty.

What really brings me into arms is when I am confronted by blatant stupidity. And maybe then I indeed start to "hate". For example when meeting braindead but still underhanded and malicious retards who write stuff like this:

http://www.tencommandments.org/

So much for some commandments. This thread was about law evasion by the church and protecting pedophile rapists in the church.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6307/deborahsenglwolfsschafp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/deborahsenglwolfsschafp.jpg/)

[Tribesman]

I suppose the nationality was again a strictly necessary factor in this?
You would have thought a topic about nonces would be simple enough for all people to agree on.
Child abuse... bad
Covering up for child abuse... bad
Facilitating childabusers... bad

But that would be too agreeable wouldn't it.

[Armistead]

I care not for an obscure foreign propaganda piece written by some clown with an axe to grind. This is what, like the 1000th religion hating thread you've started over the years? You hate religion, we get the point.

And no, the 10th commandment isn't about sexual equality but neither does it mandate sexual INequality. That is your reaching interpretation. Ask any priest (assuming you wouldn't just burst into flame in their presence) and they will tell you that the 10th commandment applies to females coveting a neighbors husband as much as males coveting a neighbors wife.

There was no sexual equality in the OT, women were property of the father or husband. A male could have as many wives, concubines and slave women as he wanted and have sex with them all. Women suffered numeroius laws to keep them inferior and in place.

[August]

Parrots sounding like parrots - what a surprise.

Haters spreading hate - what a surprise.


And about me hating religion, as you put it. Well, not sure I agree with that formulation, I am more alarmed about it like I am alarmed about a lack of oxygen to breathe or like I am alarmed about a lack of water and food when being hungry and thirsty.

In other words...
[/QUOTE]

[HundertzehnGustav]

Let him "hate" all he wants. (to use your interpretation of "being alarmed" about something)
many of his points he is not alone on, this side of the ocean.
i mean.... do you have anything to say other than kick the man in the nuts?

... or attempt to.

[August]

Let him "hate" all he wants.

That's ridiculous. Am I somehow preventing him from spreading his hate?

[Cybermat47]

On a note that we can all agree on, a Royal Commission, looking into child abuse, is beginning in Australia. And from the sounds of things, if the Church suddenly objects, the investigators will just carry on.

[HundertzehnGustav]

then tell me your point is...? he hates religion and should shut up about it?
is he and or the subject getting on your nerves?
he has a beef with the institution that has put itself between the religious ide and the human "average Joe" masses.

Pointing out manipulation, abuse, evil and so forth coming from the Church (not religion itself as such)
why shall he not open his eyes and share his thoughs on that matter?

[HundertzehnGustav]

On a note that we can all agree on, a Royal Commission, looking into child abuse, is beginning in Australia. And from the sounds of things, if the Church suddenly objects, the investigators will just carry on.


very good.
the Church should be downgraded to the level of amateur socker or cricket or baseball or basketball teams when it comes to privileges and extra rights.

Anyone objecting investigations shall be treated as a potential suspect and abuser.

now that would be fun to watch...:haha::har:
Squeal, pope, squeal!

[Cybermat47]

the Church should be downgraded to the level of amateur socker or cricket or baseball or basketball teams when it comes to privileges and extra rights.

Personally, I'm not even sure why the Church has to be an international organization. I can understand the need for some, like St. Vincent de Paul's, but do we really need one telling us to worship God? Surely all we need is a local Church building.

[HundertzehnGustav]

we need a good ole brainwashing to keep the robes rich, the little boys shut up and the masses scared to (of) death and hell and destruction.

sometimes i think the masses get the religious institutions they deserve, no more, no less.:haha:

but Violation? Of Young Kids?:timeout::timeout:
there, for me everything comes to a screeching halt...

:huh:

[August]

Personally, I'm not even sure why the Church has to be an international organization. I can understand the need for some, like St. Vincent de Paul's, but do we really need one telling us to worship God? Surely all we need is a local Church building.

Already been done. It's called Protestantism.

[Cybermat47]

Oh yeah, I forgot about them. :oops:

I thought that I was a Protestant for quite some time, then I found out I was Anglican :haha:

[August]

very good.
the Church should be downgraded to the level of amateur socker or cricket or baseball or basketball teams when it comes to privileges and extra rights.

Anyone objecting investigations shall be treated as a potential suspect and abuser.

now that would be fun to watch...:haha::har:
Squeal, pope, squeal!

Too bad you'll never be in a position to decide... :woot:

[HundertzehnGustav]

says who?:hmm2:
we'll see that in two years :D
when i help deciding on how the public will keep or not keep funding religions.

Cut their money, cut their position ;)

[August]

says who?:hmm2:
we'll see that in two years :D
when i help deciding on how the public will keep or not keep funding religions.

Cut their money, cut their position ;)

Maybe in your,... is it a real full fledged country or a Some kind of independent Dutchy that you live in? Anyways that'll be the day when a Luxembourger decides how anyone outside of Luxembourg will treat their religions.

You'll never be "The Mouse That Roared"... :)

[HundertzehnGustav]

you failed at Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg



Luxembourg's independence was reaffirmed by the 1839 First Treaty of London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London,_1839)
it is headed by a grand duke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_duke) and is the world's only remaining grand duchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_duchy)
Luxembourg is one of the world's most developed countries, with an advanced economy and the world's highest GDP (PPP) per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita), according to the World Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Bank).
Luxembourg is a secular state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state),


What do you expect me to answer?
I know - you do not expect an answer per se. [say] all you want is to poke a stick at me.

I am Christian enough to forgive you that.
and the reason is not to pile up riches in heaven, but because i pity you.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Which leads me to an other interesting article on Wiki, about my own small country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Luxembourg

Since 1979 it has been illegal for the government to collect statistics on religious beliefs or practices.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Luxembourg#cite_note-5) It is estimated by the CIA Factbook that 87% of Luxembourgers are Roman Catholics, the remaining 13% being made up of Protestants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism), Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims), Eastern Orthodox Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church) and Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) those of other or no religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Luxembourg#cite_note-CIA_World_Factbook-6)
According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobarometer) 2005,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Luxembourg#cite_note-EUROBAROMETER-2)


44% of Luxembourgish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
28% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
22% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".

To sum it up:
35 years ago, the CIA reconed we were almost all catholics.
a quick check shows that this has las been updated in 2000, and still has not been changed.

2005 less than half the people said there must be a god,
less than a third knew there must be something, but no real clue what, and the rest had dropped the subject altogether.

Good.:yeah:

As a conclusion:
The information that the CIA presents on the CIA factbook is not accurate.
The two letters B and S come to mind.

As an addition:
It is difficult to underatsnd or grasp a country that one is not living in, only by information in books and the net.

[Tribesman]

I am Christian enough to forgive you that.
and the reason is not to pile up riches in heaven, but because i pity you.
That is probably one of the best replies in a long time.

[HundertzehnGustav]

To get back to the original Subject, i propose the followingh article:
http://www.katholisch.de/de/katholisch/themen/kirche_2/130111_missbrauchsstudie_weitere_reaktionen.php

While the Clergii and the catholic hierarchy are all wound up about the end of the cooperation, and are mad at mister pfeiffer because that guy said the Church wants to censure stuff... they are manoevering to keep their faces.
They tried to shut mister Pfeiffer up, and he refuses to play the game.
Now the Church sends the Lawyers, and the whole subject shifts towards a small bickering:
"small independent researcher verusus the church and its reputation"
--> bad.

While at the same time a jesuit says that the Victims of the abuse as well as the churches' actions and reactions must be the center of the topic at hand.
--> GOOD!
The central Commitee of the german Catholics says, there is not smokescreens being laid over cases of abuse by the catholic church.
the church is transparent, and will keeb being transparent.

--> are you kidding me? The church has been one of the most un-transparent institutions ever... transparency is not beneficial to them, on any level of their activities.
Mysterium of God and life, believing rather than knowing is their forté. Transparency and clear knowledge by facts and tests... isn't.



=========================================

Article:
we are having some issues, but will remain on topic.
we will continue our covering up of abuse (of many kinds) and will report to the the state law and the public on that.

meh: B.S. propaganda a la Goebbels.

[Skybird]

The central Commitee of the german Catholics says, there is not smokescreens being laid over cases of abuse by the catholic church.
the church is transparent, and will keeb being transparent.

That organisation is an alliance by church representatives of the dioceses and Catholic-run offices and institutions.

It is not to be mistaken with the - far greater and far more representative for the believers' community - Catholic Laymen Organisation, where ordinary people not holding official posts in the hierarchy have gathered and organised themselves, and which on many issues is in opposition to official church doctrine. This is not just some hobby debating club of some wannabe-VIPs. They run their own social infrastructure and their own social institutions. Beside this organisation, there are several other comparable ones run and maintained by church laymen.

So far the church could afford to simply ignore any opposition by such organisations, since they use to shy away from seriously challenging the church's self-claimed authority when the going threatens to get tougher.

[u crank]

I am having a hard time understanding the legal process in this case. If a crime has been committed and a complaint has been made, why does the German legal system need the separate or internal investigation of any organization (KFN), in order to proceed with it's duty to bring the criminals to justice.

I find it hard to understand why the police cannot issue a subpoena and examine these personal records. Am I missing something?

[August]

I am Christian enough to forgive you that.
and the reason is not to pile up riches in heaven, but because i pity you.

Yeah like I care what you forgive or pity. :roll:

[Skybird]

I am having a hard time understanding the legal process in this case. If a crime has been committed and a complaint has been made, why does the German legal system need the separate or internal investigation of any organization (KFN), in order to proceed with it's duty to bring the criminals to justice.

I find it hard to understand why the police cannot issue a subpoena and examine these personal records. Am I missing something?
Church law in parts overrules state law, not only in Germany, btw. One of the exceptional privileges that secular critics like me are so outraged about. Others are legalised tax evasion, diplomatic status, to name just the most obvious.

If I would do like the church legally can do, I would rot in jail.

Not to mention the openly criminal activities by the church. If you want I can give you a small list with German books by prominent church critics who after having analysed the suspect have left n othing of him than shreddered pieces. It is organised crime, plain and simple.

[Tribesman]

Gustav I think your slapdown really hit the troll hard and he didn't like it

"Yeah like I care what you forgive or pity."

[Hottentot]

^^
Notice the rolling eyes emoticon.

[Tribesman]

Notice the rolling eyes emoticon.
You know it hurts him even more as it was a foriegner who showed him up:har:

But I like how someone with a big local pervert problem is trying to run down someone from a little country which can in fact impact on the problem MA faces with its clerical nonces.

[Hottentot]

I fail to see how the word "foreigner" is so relevant on an international Internet forum.

[u crank]

Church law in parts overrules state law, not only in Germany, btw.

Really? I'm no expert but I believe that in most western nations civil law trumps Canon law every time. If this is not the case in Germany then you do have a problem.

Again I ask the question..if a crime has been committed what exactly is preventing the justice system, police and courts, from pursuing a case?

And why do they need an independent study to proceed?

[Armistead]

Church law in parts overrules state law, not only in Germany, btw. One of the exceptional privileges that secular critics like me are so outraged about. Others are legalised tax evasion, diplomatic status, to name just the most obvious.

If I would do like the church legally can do, I would rot in jail.

Not to mention the openly criminal activities by the church. If you want I can give you a small list with German books by prominent church critics who after having analysed the suspect have left n othing of him than shreddered pieces. It is organised crime, plain and simple.

Agreed, not much different than the mafia. When I see one of the big "whatevers" at the Vatican, the millions spent on outfits, men acting so holy, makes me sick. They recently excommunicated a woman for speaking out for wanting women priest, while the Vatican continues to simply move child abusers to other areas where they can continue raping kids.

[Schroeder]

Really? I'm no expert but I believe that in most western nations civil law trumps Canon law every time. If this is not the case in Germany then you do have a problem.

Again I ask the question..if a crime has been committed what exactly is preventing the justice system, police and courts, from pursuing a case?

And why do they need an independent study to proceed?
The cases at hand are past the statue of limitations IIRC. That's why the police can't do much about it.

[Tribesman]

I fail to see how the word "foreigner" is so relevant on an international Internet forum.
It wouldn't be , unless of course someone has a problem with foriegners.

But his attempt really fails when his local top nonce protectors are part of an international order and both recent holders of that position hold posts in places which come directly under the jurisdiction of legal institutions in that pesky little country he was trying to run down.
Whoda thunk any lowly Luxembourger could ever have any say in what the clergy of Massachusetts can be doing eh:rotfl2:

[u crank]

The cases at hand are past the statue of limitations IIRC. That's why the police can't do much about it.

I understand. Have there been any recent cases of abuse that are not covered by the statue of limitations and have any of these cases been hindered by the church from being prosecuted?

[HundertzehnGustav]

I fail to see how the word "foreigner" is so relevant on an international Internet forum.
Eh! with all due respect!
IIRC, Neal is American.
Therefor the Subsim is american turf, because this is , sort of, Neal's backyard we are playing in. Right?
I am a foreigner, and that is all right. :)

and no, i didnt mean to slap anyone. that's not what i am here for.
i am here cause i want the Church to come forth and say what they did. and then for them to pay the price for their actions.
and then be dismatled, in a similar fashion that states are trying to dismantle drug cartels.

Because some Religions, in an organized Form... is a Drug.
In my book at least.

[Takeda Shingen]

Eh! with all due respect!
IIRC, Neal is American.
Therefor the Subsim is american turf, because this is , sort of, Neal's backyard we are playing in. Right?

If anything, it is Neal's turf, not America's. Ever since I first met Neal, he has been very clear that this is an international forum, where people from all nations are welcome and free to express their opinions within the perameters that he has established. As such, being an American does not grant one or one's views special status, nor is being a non-American a handicap in regard to expressing one's opinion.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Okay.... well put. will adapt attitude.
not that i particularly care for any "national" factors one way or another :D

[Schroeder]

I understand. Have there been any recent cases of abuse that are not covered by the statue of limitations and have any of these cases been hindered by the church from being prosecuted?
I don't think there have been any recent cases, however I'm not up to date on this.:hmm2:

[Takeda Shingen]

Okay.... well put. will adapt attitude.
not that i particularly care for any "national" factors one way or another :D

I don't think it's your attitude that needs to be adapted.

[Betonov]

I propose that Subsim is Subsim and anyone here is of Subsim nationality, therefore a Subsimer from Luxemburg is not a foreigner to a Subsimer from the USA.


Here's my observation thus far. The biggest cause of bad temper in a religion oriented topic is that people don't distinguish religion as an institution (like the catholic church I wish it was just disbanded) and personal faith (which everyone has a right to it). I'm a fan of Dawkins, but can't stand his attacks on the personal belief of individuals, even if they were influenced by the ''megachurches'' or god forbid (pun intended) the vatican.

[u crank]

I don't think there have been any recent cases, however I'm not up to date on this.:hmm2:

Right. Just wondering. This is a problem in many countries including mine, Canada. We have had some cases in revealing abuse but very often justice is not served. It's a case of the 'old boys club' protecting their own.

For the church to ever regain any credibility they have to come clean. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[HundertzehnGustav]

exactly. the church has its hands (protégées...) everywhere... like the mafia.

[Skybird]

Really? I'm no expert but I believe that in most western nations civil law trumps Canon law every time. If this is not the case in Germany then you do have a problem.

Again I ask the question..if a crime has been committed what exactly is preventing the justice system, police and courts, from pursuing a case?

And why do they need an independent study to proceed?
I cannot explain the details since I am not in the knowledge of details, but can only say that on some social issues, labour laws, and law enforcing investigation stuff as well as established property and tax-relevant practices the church enjoys a status of being excempted from the rules and being allowed to replace legal procedures valid for everbody with rules by its own law. In parts this is further boasted by the church being accepted to claim formal diplomatic status, which is another thing that is impossible to accept - a religious organisation is not a nation and thus cannot claim for example diplomatic immunity for its representatives. If one accepts the idea of a Vatican state, then one also have to surrender US sovereignity over the property of the headquarter of Scientology, for example.

Not to mention that temples are often seen and accepted as untouchable places, no matter whether churches, mosques or synagogues. When was the last time you have seen a pedophile clergy or a wanted terror suspect beeing arrested by uniformed police and brought out of a church or a mosque in handcuffs by policemen in uniform from a church or a mosque? In many european nations police has even agreed to even inform religious institutions and representatives and give warning time before they try to arrest a member of the community - of course I am especially thinking of the British and the Muslims. But the practice is being done like that over here and in other countries, too.

Religions must stop to be taken as a valid argument for why their members shall be saved from regular law enforcement and obeying laws that are valid for everybody else. Religion is private stuff. It shall not overrule secular society's rules and state's laws. Else you could also demand that all criminal offenders should be released from prison and set free because the are drinking tea instead of coffee. Didn't you know that drinking tea means you can claim special, elevated status for yourself!?

Especially the Catholic church still behaves as if it still were the medieval and clergy were part of the landlords' feudal and the ordinary people just their subordinate property. I do not know what disgusts me more: that the church behaves like this or that so my people are still willing to let themselves be treated like that and still defending the church. Different to little children getting abused and raped, an adult person has the means to resist and to refuse to obey some dubious organisations' claim for his life.

[u crank]

I cannot explain the details since I am not in the knowledge of details, but can only say that on some social issues, labour laws, and law enforcing investigation stuff as well as established property and tax-relevant practices the church enjoys a status of being excempted from the rules and being allowed to replace legal procedures valid for everbody with rules by its own law.

I don't except that explanation. Are you saying that if a priest commits a crime, any crime, he will not be brought to justice because of his status? I'm not referring to abuse cases from ten or twenty years ago. Can you show that this has happened recently? I'm not saying it hasn't I just can't believe that Germany's justice system is that out of date.

When was the last time you have seen a pedophile clergy or a wanted terror suspect beeing arrested by uniformed police and brought out of a church or a mosque in handcuffs by policemen in uniform from a church or a mosque? In many european nations police has even agreed to even inform religious institutions and representatives and give warning time before they try to arrest a member of the community - of course I am especially thinking of the British and the Muslims. But the practice is being done like that over here and in other countries, too.

I can only speak for my own country. There have been a number of priests charged and punished. An important case.

http://www.carters.ca/pub/bulletin/church/2005/chchlb11.htm

In parts this is further boasted by the church being accepted to claim formal diplomatic status, which is another thing that is impossible to accept - a religious organisation is not a nation and thus cannot claim for example diplomatic immunity for its representatives.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Especially the Catholic church still behaves as if it still were the medieval and clergy were part of the landlords' feudal and the ordinary people just their subordinate property.

That's an unfortunate reality.

Having said that I am sure there are many devote Catholics who are very disturbed by these things and are doing their utmost to prevent it and to expose it. Not an easy task. I wish them well.

[soopaman2]

The scourge that is organized religion spreads well beyond Catholicism or even Christianity in general.

Religion is fine, it is the (firebrands in any sect), that makes it intolerable and counterproductive to progress.

[HundertzehnGustav]

whatt?

Interestingly, the Supreme Court declined to address the Diocese's submission that the Roman Catholic Church and not the Diocese, should be held liable for Mr. Bennett's conducts. Chief Justice McLachlin stated that the Court would need more information concerning the Church's hierarchy and relationship with individual constituents before such a question could be answered, and left it open for a future date.

so... that dude tried to hide behind the Pope's Robe sort of speaking.
because The RCC is every member of that church(the church is not the building... it is its people), and the hierarchy in special.
and the hierarchy sits far away in its own country that makes its own extradition laws.

LOL or Mad?
that is not "interestingly".. that is quite normal IMO.

Well done, Canada.
Great piece of reading.:up:

[Schroeder]

Are you saying that if a priest commits a crime, any crime, he will not be brought to justice because of his status?
Nope, priests can just be arrested as everyone else and it has happened in such cases in the past. They are not above the law.

[Platapus]

exactly. the church has its hands (protégées...) everywhere... .


I think that's one of the problems, hands where they are not supposed to be. :yep:

[Armistead]

Sure, they can be arrested if caught, the problem usually is it's reported to the church to be handled in the church. What's terrible is when the Vatican is aware of the crime, but will not report it, rather cover it up, a crime in itself. Course many abuse victims would rather settle for money, knowing they'll get nothing out of a court case.

What I find sad is the numerous parents that know, but refuse to report it, fear of the church, guilt, etc. They are taught early to let the church deal with such issues.

[soopaman2]

Sure, they can be arrested if caught, the problem usually is it's reported to the church to be handled in the church. What's terrible is when the Vatican is aware of the crime, but will not report it, rather cover it up, a crime in itself. Course many abuse victims would rather settle for money, knowing they'll get nothing out of a court case.

What I find sad is the numerous parents that know, but refuse to report it, fear of the church, guilt, etc. They are taught early to let the church deal with such issues.

Take away all churches (catholic, mormon, Westboro Baptist) tax exemptions.

People talk about the poor getting a free ride and critisizing, but the religious get the biggest free ride in the history of man.

[Platapus]

Take away all churches (catholic, mormon, Westboro Baptist) tax exemptions.


I take a more moderate position. I believe that churches should be treated the same as corporations.

The not-for-profit activities of the church should be tax exempt
The for-profit activities of the church should not be tax exempt.

The corporation nature of churches no longer fits the "one status fits all" as more and more churches are engaging in for profit activities.

Even as an atheist, I recognize the beneficial effects on our communities that the not-for-profit activities of church provide.

We don't need to put unnecessary burdens on people doing goodly things. Your deity of choice knows that we need more goodly people doing goodly things, not less. :yep:

Churches should be encouraged, through tax expenditures, to continue, and increase, their not-for-profit programs that benefit the community.

However, Churches do need to pay taxes on their for-profit activities.

[Skybird]

Schroeder, there are too many cases where the church was allowed to move pedophile priests into different priests and countries so that they were out of reach for the police. The conflict between state law and church law is a grey zone there. Partially these practices openly violate German laws by hindering German persecution by law enforcement, and hindering the justice authorities. And many politicians nevertheless hold their guarding hand over the church when this has happened.

I would also insist that when the church knows it has a pedophile rapist in service somewhere, it has not hand him over the the authorities even if the authorities so far did not know about the case. Not doing so equals "Verschleierung einer Straftat", and conspiracy for doing so. Both is under penalty in Germany.

On the other hand, church law has set rules that regulate when under which circumstances personal records for example, but also other files, must be destroyed, and after shorter periods of time than German regulations for employees and offices usually demand. This comfortably often has the effect that personal records against suspects had been destroyed by the church befpore investigations could have had a look at them. The German state so far has not confronted the church over these rules and allows it to get away with it. It compares to a military commander giving order to destroy all appers and maps while his post gets overrun, so that the enemy gains no sensible information.

---

Anyhow, the bishop of Trier today has complained that the church "is the victim of injustice". He said that the church has cooperated with two other comparable research projects, although their findings - empirical conclusions on how widespread the problem is - was no compliment for the church. What the good man did not say is that so far the church only lets some people count the number of cases without further consequences, and that none of the two earlier reports so far has led to the arresting of rapists, nor has the church approached the law enforcement authorities in an act of initiative in filing charges against known pedophile priests, nor has it agreed to allow criminal police running independent, fully supported investigations in cases of suspicion. The police runs such investigations - but against the opposition of the church. This is what makes the difference.

So dear bishop - you seriously claim the church is the victim of injustice, have I got that right...? I know one such victim of our organisation's criminal actings, and its family, and I say you, bishop, deserve a spanking of your naked butt, in public, on the market place, and two days and nights in the block so that they can throw eggs and rotten tomatoes on you.

[u crank]

I take a more moderate position. I believe that churches should be treated the same as corporations.

The not-for-profit activities of the church should be tax exempt
The for-profit activities of the church should not be tax exempt....

Churches should be encouraged, through tax expenditures, to continue, and increase, their not-for-profit programs that benefit the community.

However, Churches do need to pay taxes on their for-profit activities.

Very good point and position. Well said. :up:

[GT182]

Churches today, and they have been for a ages, are the biggest nontaxed businesses in the world. And the Catholic church is the most corrupt and richest of them all.

Now if God was out there paying attention, do you really think these priests molesting children would have gotten away with it for all these years? I think not. And that's only the tip of the iceburg.

[Skybird]

Churches today, and they have been for a ages, are the biggest nontaxed businesses in the world. And the Catholic church is the most corrupt and richest of them all.
And to complete that, of all nations, the Catholic church in Germany is the richest of them all. There is a mandatory tax to be payed, which in an act of evertyhing but a secular cooperation is collected and handed over by the state, and institutions and hositals for which the church pays only 10% in building and maintenance costs neverthelss chnage over onto possession of the church, with 90% of the costs payed by the taxpayer, who is directly subsidizing this "enrichment" even if he is no church member, or is openly hostile to the church like me. So, even me needs to directly pay for them. I say thank you for that.

It is a medieval setup over here. And the church is treating people like a feudal big landowner who has the duke and the trading guild in his pockets.

Last year Catholic laymen organisations once again petitioned for obligatory church taxes being abandoned, so that the church should live by voluntary donations, like it seems to be the case in almost all other parts of the world. Rome and the German bishops simply said No, found some stinking excuses to get away with it, and that was it.

Add to this the privilege of massive tax exceptions, and questionable business models.

Now you know why the German Catholic church is the richest in the world. It is in bed with poltiicians, and the state, and jurisdiction. In Germany, the lambs are golden.

[August]

Now you know why the German Catholic church is the richest in the world. It is in bed with poltiicians, and the state, and jurisdiction. In Germany, the lambs are golden.

You should run for office and oppose them. :yep:

[u crank]

And to complete that, of all nations, the Catholic church in Germany is the richest of them all. There is a mandatory tax to be payed, which in an act of evertyhing but a secular cooperation is collected and handed over by the state, and institutions and hositals for which the church pays only 10% in building and maintenance costs neverthelss chnage over onto possession of the church, with 90% of the costs payed by the taxpayer, who is directly subsidizing this "enrichment" even if he is no church member, or is openly hostile to the church like me. So, even me needs to directly pay for them. I say thank you for that.


From Wikipedia article on church tax: Germany.

The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany

???:hmmm:

[Tribesman]

The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church.
You are wasting your time, his rant about having to pay church tax has been shown to be false dozens of times.
He will still repeat it next time he complains about the church in Germany as if it were true.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Good point about the Taxes in for profit and not for profit areas!

But by definition, a Church is connected to a religion.
and a religion is not a business.
therefor:

Are there "for profit activities" at all?

The church says NO, we are working for God, not for money.
So, no we don't pay taxes. basta.

:yeah:Backstages, aint they.
Gulag, Stalag or worse.:nope:

[Tribesman]

Are there "for profit activities" at all?

Yes, a huge amount of them.

[Betonov]

There is a book of profits in the Bible you know

[HundertzehnGustav]

EEE!

EEE not IIIII!

*facepalm*:nope:

:rotfl2:

[Skybird]

From Wikipedia article on church tax: Germany.

The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends.
???:hmmm:

Nothing "hmmm" - that si what I said: the church lives not by donations, but mandatory taxes for its members, collected by the state on behalf of the church. Plus tax idiots like me need to mandatorily subisidze it even when not being members anymore - by my ordiunbary taxes I fiance the church in the way I explained somewhere above, and finance its tax evasion, and its property collecting. I may be atheist, an non-member, an opponent of it - I still need to pay for them, indirectly.

Gotta love it.

The state and public tax pools have to stay out of subsidizing religious communities. Completely.

[Skybird]

Good point about the Taxes in for profit and not for profit areas!

But by definition, a Church is connected to a religion.
and a religion is not a business.
therefor:

Last year the German Catholic church sold its shares of a book publisher who published erotic literature. :haha: The church is said to have lost massively in banking speculations during the past years, like many others. It is engaged in and holds shares in many other businesses and companies as well. It also maintains its own economic enterprises.

Of course they claim not to be a business company. What a surprise.

[Tribesman]

Nothing "hmmm" - that si what I said:
See what I mean


The state and public tax pools have to stay out of subsidizing religious communities. Completely.
Yes, religious communities must be banned from all involvement in healthcare, education and welfare to completely remove any overlap.
In addition if a church wants a wheelchair ramp into its community center for disabled pensioners to use it must be banned from accessing the grants which subsidises such improvements.

loony toons:doh:

[HundertzehnGustav]

exactly.
want a ramp? pay for it.

thing is, to all these "services" these buggers attach a loto f propaganda and brainwashing to.
I bet that sciantific looney church has such centres as well.
sometimes these centres are openly connected to the religion they come from, sometimes it is hidden.
Hdden by name and people interacting between centre and church.

all with the goal of catching souls and gaining influence, gaining money and control the masses.

To pay their whores and golden Temples...:)

But that is perfectly all right, isnt it. completely Normal.

[Tribesman]

exactly.
Miss the sarcasm much?

[Armistead]

Silk robe by Armani
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/04/article-1383478-0BE7E4F200000578-320_468x479.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/LeoXIIIcrown.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LeoXIIIcrown.jpg)

http://witola.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Pope-Benedict-XVI.jpg

Don't forget to bow and kiss the gold ring.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2008/04/medium_popebishop.jpg

Be interesting to know the millions they spend each year on "holy" robes.

[HundertzehnGustav]

aww!
Come on! i am eating here! This is disgusting!:nope:
look at that Zombie stuffing his fist in that other Dude's nose.
Reminds me of the green mile:
DEAD MAN WALKING!

[Skybird]

News in: as became known in recent days, it seems that so-called Catholic hospitals in Germany (that are for the most hospitals that are maintained and payed for by the tax payer and the church gives a minor contribution to it, as low as only 10% of the overall costs, by doing so gaining legal right to claim it its possession and run it by church law and church administration) often evade the emergency treatment of female rape victims, and send them away instead.

In German law, women seeking an abortion must undergo an obligatory advisory meeting with a doctor and "talk" about their decision, before they can sign in for the procedure. In cases of pregnancy by rape, often the so-called "pill-after" is beign prescribed, if desired.

Of course, this is against Catholic church ideology that claims that women must accept what happens to them and have no right to refuse pregnancy if they become pregnant. By sending away even completely innocent victims of serious and traumatizing crime, the church wants to avoid needing to give abortion advisory meetings to girls and women.

Jesus would be proud of this inhumane sick breed.

There can be only two consequences: the public tax-funding schemes for the church must end, and hospitals refusing treatment must have their treaties with the health insuring companies cancelled, which needs the heads-nodding by politicians first, due to the legal situation over here

And this is why neither the first nor the second will happen in our pseudo-secular nation. Church and politicians are in bed with each other.

Although I do not pay many taxes, I still weep for every little cent of my small taxes that I need to sink into this ratpack's bottomless pockets, no matter whether I want that or not.

Some days ago, in this Indian case about the gang-rape of a young women that later died, some Hindi religious rectal opening claimed that it was her own guilt, because she did not struggle enough - so he claimed. Well. Between him and the Catholic church in this story, there is not much difference. They are of the same barbarian and inhumane thinking.

The church commented on the story of a young women being send away in two Catholic hospitals in Cologne by claiming that it only is a "misunderstanding", and that victims of rape of course get treated in Catholic hospitals. At the same time the directive to not give legally demanded advsory talks and councelling to women wanting to abort, has been affirmed. Since it is mandatory by law that these advisory talks must be given before any abortion could be requested, rape or not, this translates into: no treatment of rape emergencies, no medical evidence-taking of crimes committed against women.

[Armistead]

Much like when the Catholic church in Africa having so much power, even though 1000's were dying of AIDS, they preached condom use was sin so many followed the belief. Having some power over governments, condoms were removed from schools, etc...no telling how many people died.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-politicians-fight-catholic-church-power-over-public-institutions-a-879198.html

A state within a state, to 90% financially maintained by public taxes nevertheless, and claiming more and more sovereignity from the state, and increasing the number of institutions it calls its own.

Totally unacceptable.

[HundertzehnGustav]

same here. Church isolates itself from the general population, and becomes increasingly radical - the classic bickering between sub-groups and Orders leads to letters of hate and resentment that the church subgroups exchange. The public gets a few hints of the ongoing fights when they go to mass on weekends.

They really return to the 1700s.

[vienna]

The case of child molestation by priests and the cover-up by the high ranking Los Angeles clergy just got real interesting with the release by the diocese of some 12,000 pages of diocese internal memos, correspondence, and documents relating to the cover-up, as mandated by the local courts. The documents detail the extent to which the diocese, particularly under the rule of Cardinal Mahony, engaged in full-scale efforts to protect priests from arrest and prosecution. Here is a link to the documents as posted by the docese on its website:

http://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/

You only need to read a few of these to really see how truly evil and self-serving these "protectors of the faith" could be in dealing with the victims...

<O>

[sidslotm]

Unfortunately, man can control everything but himself, therein is our problem and will forever remain so. Governments, Churches and Military muscle exemplify the need to control the masses, that they do not escape onto desolation row and finally find the freedom they crave.

[Skybird]

The case of child molestation by priests and the cover-up by the high ranking Los Angeles clergy just got real interesting with the release by the diocese of some 12,000 pages of diocese internal memos, correspondence, and documents relating to the cover-up, as mandated by the local courts. The documents detail the extent to which the diocese, particularly under the rule of Cardinal Mahony, engaged in full-scale efforts to protect priests from arrest and prosecution. Here is a link to the documents as posted by the docese on its website:

http://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/

You only need to read a few of these to really see how truly evil and self-serving these "protectors of the faith" could be in dealing with the victims...

<O>

Already some days, or even 1-2 weeks ago, it was revealed to what degree the victims had been brainwashed and intimidated by the offenders afterward. Some contacted the victims by themselves, others got apprached by them, and in both cases not few of the offenders tried to indoctrinbate them with things like "we are now linked together in the love of Jesus" and "God wanted it" and "What you got gifted by me with is an evidence for the love of God."

Get out the bullwhip.

Yesterday, arch cardinal Meisner, Germany, complained about a pogrom climate against the church, and that it is met with hostility instead respect.

Well. That is rich.

What stuns me time and again is that these slime bags often indeed mean what they say. With a wide, fat grin on their face.

Ekelhaft.

[HundertzehnGustav]

http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Erzbischof-sieht-Pogromstimmung-article10057636.html



Der Chef der Glaubenskongregation des Vatikans, Erzbischof Gerhard Ludwig Müller, sieht eine "Pogromstimmung" gegen die katholische Kirche aufkommen. Der "Welt" sagte Müller, es gebe "gezielte Diskreditierungskampagnen gegen die katholische Kirche in Nordamerika und auch bei uns in Europa". Diese hätten erreicht, "dass Geistliche in manchen Bereichen schon jetzt ganz öffentlich angepöbelt werden", so Müller.

Archbishop Mister Müller sees a Pogrom mood/ atmosphere against the Catholic Church in E. and N.A. that has the effect of Clerics get bullied on in certain Regions.

Müller stellt die katholische Kirche als Opfer von Angriffen dar, die ihre Wurzel im Nationalsozialismus und Kommunismus haben. Im Internet und auch im Fernsehen würden Attacken gegen die katholische Kirche geritten, deren Rüstzeug zurückgehe auf den Kampf der totalitären Ideologien gegen das Christentum, sagte er.

He paints the Catholic Church as victim of [propaganda] attacks that have their roots in nationalism and communism. The net and TV would be used to attack the Church, and directions of these attacks would be totalitary ideologies against Christianity.



Zum innerkirchlichen Dialog in Deutschland wie zwischen Bischöfen und kritischen Laien meinte Müller, man müsse dabei auch über das Wesentliche reden "und nicht die gleichen Probleme immer wieder neu auftischen". Das geforderte sakramentale Weiheamt für Frauen beispielsweise sei unmöglich, die katholische Kirche könne auch gleichgeschlechtliche Partnerschaften nicht akzeptieren. "Solche Partnerschaften sind grundsätzlich in keiner Weise mit den Ehen gleichzustellen." Müller bekräftigte auch, am Pflichtzölibat für Priester festzuhalten, denn deren Ehelosigkeit entspreche "dem Beispiel und dem Wort Jesu".


Müller thinks that re-debating old points makes no sense.
Critical Lamen demanding female priests and the acceptance of homo marriage - that is an impossible demand for the church to take for church can impossibly accept that.
He also insists on celibacy, because being unmarried represents following jesu example.

Independent of my own Views and Opinions, i think it is safe to say:

-1) Society starts to accept Gay marriage.
Church does not. They stay behind the learning curve.

- 2) Society acceptts that women do as well on a Job as a man. Women are as capable to achieve something as a human with a dick.
Church refuses that idea. They stay behind the learning curve.

- 3) The risk of abuse, the need for sex and all that.... which leads to abuse - he holds on to Priests not being allowed to have any kind of intercourse with women "because Jesus didnt have sex either"
Indirectly promoting, or dare i even say defending the abuse of priests on Children.

- 4) all this is summed up as a war of the media against the church, and oh the poor church, we getting raped by the nonbelievers, the evil humanists, the atheists, nazis, the Commies and the antichrist himself.


How about this, church:
SOCIETY DOES NOT NEED, FEAR, WANT TO FEED YOU ANY LONGER YOU FRICKING RETARDS! WE MOVED BEYOND YOUR SICK RULES

:up:

[Skybird]

Just noted that the chief of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Gerhard Ludwig Müller, gets quoted in news today of having complained, too, over the church being "mobbed".

I feel so very sorry for you, dear Sir. My heart cries big tears of heartblood when learning about your suffering and distress.

[August]

How about this, church:
SOCIETY DOES NOT NEED, FEAR, WANT TO FEED YOU ANY LONGER YOU FRICKING RETARDS! WE MOVED BEYOND YOUR SICK RULES

:up:

I'm not a religious guy but I read this and wonder who you think you are speaking for society.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Meh? I am speaking for myself.

1) when i see the changes in local and national, international rules, concerning nations allowing gay marriage

2) when i see women being allowed in the highest positions over all resentments and resistancey by male counterparts in many nations worldwide

THEN i say Society. Of course that mostly encompasses the christianized part of the world.

Nice to see you here. How about you stop thinking?

[HundertzehnGustav]

( i mean that in the sense of "how about you stop poking a stick at me - i know you can not stand me, as i am a liberal socialist commie European... i really do not coare for your presence in this discussion on Catholic transparency, thank you for leaving... me alone")

:D


Hugs.

[August]

Meh? I am speaking for myself.

Then what's with the "we"?

How about you stop thinking?

You presume to speak for everyone then you tell us to stop thinking. Illuminating...

[HundertzehnGustav]

Nono. YOU. AUGUST.
not "you, the world"

back to topic, and off the personal bickering...

Der Humanistische Verband Deutschlands (HVD) sprach von bizarren Äußerungen des Bischofs. "Es wirkt geradezu grotesk, wenn Müller angesichts der offenkundigen Unfähigkeit seiner Kirche, mit dem jahrzehntelang vertuschten weltweiten sexuellen Missbrauch durch Geistliche in redlicher Weise aufzuräumen, die Kirche in der Rolle eines unschuldigen Opfers sieht", erklärte HVD-Vizepräsident Helmut Fink in einer in Berlin verbreiteten Mitteilung. Die Vergleiche Müllers zeigten wieder einmal, wie fremd der römischen Kirche die Werte der Aufklärung und der offene Umgang mit Kritik auch heute noch seien.


German humanist Group Vicepresident Fink: It seems grotesk when Müller paints church as a Victim, in the face of decades of worldwide abuse and silencing of Victims. It shows how The roman Church reacts to reconnaissance (elucidation?) and criticism, even today.

that is nicely put. Very diplomatic though. Keeping the tone mild, yet getting to the point.

but then again, the man is right.
OPFER. das sind alles OPFER.:D:haha:

[Madox58]

Meh. Why the Church is still around after the inquisition tells me all I need to know.

[August]

i know you can not stand me, as i am a liberal socialist commie European... i really do not coare for your presence in this discussion on Catholic transparency, thank you for leaving... me alone"

I'm really hurt and disappointed that you dislike me so much but never fear I can stand you just fine bud.

[HundertzehnGustav]

*headscratch*

You wrote a riddle i can not solve.
Say again please? I didn't understand a word.

[Skybird]

HundertzehnGustav beat me by some minutes on the story of Müller.

August, you rethorically asked who he is talking for when Gustav mentions "society". The question is rather whom the church is speaking for, considering the far-reaching special rights and special status it demands, considering formal Catholics are no majority but a minority over here (by a wide margin), and considering the fact that the majority of these followers are in open turnaway and disloyalty towards the church. The question also is why these demands for being given special rights and special status should be justified - both when considering the massive abuse of these powers, and when ignoring it and just considering the conclusion that due to it being the church it shall be seen as something "special" and "privileged". What for...?

Formally, the majority of Germans (and Europeans) is not Catholic. And in Germany and other countries, the majority of these Catholics meet the church with confrontation, desinterest.

I do not like the Protestant church one bit better. It is different, but not better. And in some regards it even is worse and far more underhanded.

So whom does the church, no matter which one, represent in society? Not as many as Gustav speaks for, this much I can promise you.

[HundertzehnGustav]

What i find funny, is... as we are neighbors on a national Level, the same stuff happens here too.
but since we are merely a pixel on the map, it happens on a lesser scale.

Zooming out, and looking all over Europe, i find it good that people turn away from the churches, and seek wisdom and knowledge elsewhere than in Religion only.

reminds me...
On saturday i had an elderly man from "the Whitnesses" at my door.
He rang the bell around the time my GF was sposed to come by.

I didnt wear anything but a towel when i opened.
GF showed up seconds later, saw both of us standing there, and erupted in laughter.

[Madox58]

"the Whitnesses"
As in Jehovah's?
:har:

You got those there also??

[HundertzehnGustav]

yes!

I once had a set of Women (one young, one elder, bibles at hand and all) at the door . they greeted me with "We bring you the light".

I turned and called inside, (even though there was nobody there)
"Honey, the Lady from the electricity company is here!"

... then shut the door on her noses still standing outside.
They drop by regularly, looking for prey. love them.

[August]

August, you rethorically asked who he is talking for when Gustav mentions "society". The question is rather whom the church is speaking for, considering the far-reaching special rights and special status it demands, considering formal Catholics are no majority but a minority over here (by a wide margin), and considering the fact that the majority of these followers are in open turnaway and disloyalty towards the church. The question also is why these demands for being given special rights and special status should be justified - both when considering the massive abuse of these powers, and when ignoring it and just considering the conclusion that due to it being the church it shall be seen as something "special" and "privileged". What for...?

Formally, the majority of Germans (and Europeans) is not Catholic. And in Germany and other countries, the majority of these Catholics meet the church with confrontation, desinterest.

I do not like the Protestant church one bit better. It is different, but not better. And in some regards it even is worse and far more underhanded.

So whom does the church, no matter which one, represent in society? Not as many as Gustav speaks for, this much I can promise you.

Well as you know Sky although I was raised as such (by my German mother) I am no Catholic (much to her chagrin) nor do I belong to any other organized religion but just for the record the only one that speaks for me or mine (which includes a fair number of Germans) is one who has been authorized by us to do so.

Understand that I have no problem with his message, if what you and he say about the Catholic Church is true then maybe your country would indeed be better off if you just outlawed them altogether.

I just was commenting on his implication that he speaks for the rest of society. Is his real name like Angela Merkel or something? :hmm2:

[HundertzehnGustav]

do i look like a frikking german?:har:

Outlawing churches may be a bit harsh.
removing their extras in the sense of cash and rules, mechanisms, privileges is a more reasonable step i think.

[August]

do i look like a frikking German?:har:I imagine you Luxembourgers look a lot like Germans, a third of your country are German by blood no?

Outlawing churches may be a bit harsh.
removing their extras in the sense of cash and rules, mechanisms, privileges is a more reasonable step i think.I guess that depends on what you mean by that and if how far it would go. Remember Germany did that to another religion not too long ago and at the time it was also considered "a reasonable step". Beware Friend.

[Madox58]

yes!

I once had a set of Women (one young, one elder, bibles at hand and all) at the door . they greeted me with "We bring you the light".

I turned and called inside, (even though there was nobody there)
"Honey, the Lady from the electricity company is here!"

... then shut the door on her noses still standing outside.
They drop by regularly, looking for prey. love them.

I have a "No Jahovah's!" sign on my front door.
Now I don't really care what you believe.
But what I believe is I don't want ANYONE at my front door with anything to sell.
Let alone a belief system in anything.
I'd prefer an Amway dude knock on my door.
:haha:

[August]

Is it really that often you folks get bothered over there? Over here no holy roller has knocked on my door in at least a decade and that's in urban, suburban and rural locations in three different states. I'm not claiming that's representative but I haven't been hiding from them either.

They just aren't very numerous over here apparently, at least in New England.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I would apply that to all any any religion. Bringing them down to the abilty and rsponsability of the local or national soccer club.

REMOVE their privileges.
SEPARATE all churches from state-run instututions. The law is thelaw, and counts for muslims and jews, christians of all kinds, and all other religious people too.
the LAW is above them all, THE LAW being blind to religion. THE LAW ruling over people of all kinds, respecting humaity of any source and protecting the weak from abuse.
That is my wish.

Nor INCREASE other group's Privileges.
You could say:
Put Humanity and law over Religious concerns and religious law.

I think some 75 years back, there was a Political party round my neck of the woods that severely and clearly abused their position to kick anything aside that stood in their path.
Globally speaking, these Thugs BOUGHT the Church back then. and the Church played the game for a while.

Speaking for myself, i do not care for politics much. It confuses me more than it helps me in my daily life.

still:
Put Humanity and law over Religious concerns and religious law.

I think with "a spoonfull of Humanity above all" one can not do much wrong.
Correctly Voted laws should be the State's tools for ruling the masses.
In that Context, Religion is up to the individual, and should have no means of influencing the state's decisions.
But should also abide by the state's rules, suffer detective work and punishment where found guilty.

I understand the worries.
But today's Goal is not to start a war - neither in belgium france nor germany. not like back then, everything had to give way to what was written in Mein Kampf.
We realy have other problems to deal with at the moment.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I believe in death.
Nothing else (before OR after) seems to be as safe on my path as death.
and since death is such a vague thing to experience, you could say i am a non believer altogether.:D


Amway?
http://www.amway.com/
These guys?
what would they do knocking on people's doors?
they sell all kinds of stuff. from proteines to T-shirts to "a way to experience excellence"

[Takeda Shingen]

I usually get one or two a year, either Jehovah's Witnesses or Southern Baptists. I'm Lutheran, but I just say that I'm Catholic and they run for their car as fast as they can. No big deal.

[Madox58]

Is it really that often you folks get bothered over there?
I'm in Ohio.
And YES! They will bang your door several times a month if you don't go radical on them!

I once answered the door naked, knowing it was them!
They came back the next day.
My crazy (WAY crazier then me) cousin was here then.
He started telling them about Satan and how he worshipped him.
They left and came back the next day!
The sign was up by then and have passed by every since.
:har:

[Madox58]

Amway?

Not being in the U.S. I'd hope you are safe.
:D

Not knowing who I may offend here?
I'll let it go for now.
:03:

[HundertzehnGustav]

I haven't pulled any satanist stunts on them yet.
But i once broke out a bunch of math, geography and Universe books on them, trying to make them admit God did not exist and that The big bang was the source of EVERYTHING EVER.
:rotfl2:
didn't work too well.

I appreciate them for a laugh once in a while.

[Madox58]

Invite them in and then start talking to yourself as if there's two of you!
That will make both your day and thiers!
:haha:

My sister was one of them for awhile. I got an inside track to flip them out!
:har:

[HundertzehnGustav]

had a family member that became a whitness.
Over years i observed from the outside, and how she changed... everything. Husband, kid, work, house, relocation finances and health decline.
She claimed to be happy, because she was guided, and embedded in that jehovah community.

welll.... okay. if she is happy, that's all we can ever ask for in this life.

But not a path to take in my opinion, and it confirmed me in my thought that religion, in organized form is basically brainwashing.

[Madox58]

I agree with you 100%.
:salute:

[August]

Invite them in and then start talking to yourself as if there's two of you!
That will make both your day and thiers!
:haha:

My sister was one of them for awhile. I got an inside track to flip them out!
:har:

Brother you sound like a training aid for identifying someone possessed by the devil. You might actually be drawing them in with that kind of behavior like moths to a candle. Bet you get prayed over a lot. :yep:

[HundertzehnGustav]

:haha::har:
+111:yeah:

[Madox58]

Brother you sound like a training aid for identifying someone possessed by the devil. You might actually be drawing them in with that kind of behavior like moths to a candle. Bet you get prayed over a lot. :yep:
:haha:
I have "WARPED" tattooed down my wrist next to the Pumpkin King.

And I jumped outta aircraft for a living once.
How much crazier can I get?
:D

[Nippelspanner]

Ha, the witnesses...
They (finally) rang at my door last summer. Two women, a very young one and an older one, both armed with the holy book of "truth" and "light" and "guidance" and what not...

I never met those folks before, so I thought its a good idea to get some info and build up my own opinion. My little adventure ended after 45 minutes in my doorway, when the ladies "really had to go" after some interesting discussions.

What really got me was the thing that one MUST believe in god (and worship him of course) so he is good to go into paradise after the last breath was done. I asked them:
"Ladies, let us assume that I was a very good person all my life. Good in helping people in need, never breaking the law etc. etc... but still... the "allmighty" wont allow me to enter paradise because I did not worship him on my knees? Even worse, I have to suffer instead? Doesnt God demand from us that we love and care about each other? Why would he punish me then?

Let me ask you honestly:
Does god have any personal problems, like feeling insecure? (they stopped their fake smiling at this point all the sudden)
How can someone, like God, punish me and let me suffer - just because I did not worship him? Does he really need that so badly? That does not make sense to me at all, please explain..." :hmmm:

"We are sorry, we will be back another time..." :hmph:

Made my WEEK, not just my day! :cool:

[Skybird]

do i look like a frikking german?:har:

Outlawing churches may be a bit harsh.
removing their extras in the sense of cash and rules, mechanisms, privileges is a more reasonable step i think.
Submitting them to the valdity of the law of the state and country.

They do refuse to treat people in catholic hospitals (which are only 10% Catholic by financial support through the church, but 100% Catholic by claim and administration)? Cancel their payment treaties with health insurers, and expropriate the church of the 90% budget for constructing and having maintained the hospital.

Prohibition of church law canon.

Cancellation of diplomatic status of the Vatican and church representatives.

Prohibition of the mandatory church tax collected by the state for the church. Let them live by voluntary donations exclusively.

Unbundling of social care and wellfare functions in germany and church influence and interference in these. Social services run by private initiative or the state, not by religious organisations. Here, the church again pays very little contributions only, but enjoys privileges and rights as if it would own the total and complete service organisation.

Law enforcement against money launderers, crminal economists and pedophile rapists wearing robes without accept immunity of theirs any longer becasue they are claimed to fall under church law canon. As said above, the church law canon shall have no validity in germany, or only in so far as it does not rival or collide with the laws of state and country. National law overrules church law. Better ban the whole thing together, like other religions underground parallel justice systems as well. One law for all. Before the law, everybody being equal. No exceptions, no privileges. Law based on secular traditions of the state, not on religious traditions by religious lineages.