Fiscal Cliff..

[Armistead]

I thought they would work a deal, but looks like we're headed over the fiscal cliff. It's it too late to work a deal?

[Onkel Neal]

Nah, they'll strike some kind of deal/delay action at the last minute. If not, no big deal, everyone just gets a tax bump.

[Jimbuna]

I always thought our UK deficit was large but the US one dwarfs that.

I sometimes wonder what percentage tax rise would be needed to reduce them over say a ten or twenty year period.

[eddie]

I thought they would work a deal, but looks like we're headed over the fiscal cliff. It's it too late to work a deal?

I agree with Neal, they'll work something out. Neither side wants to be blamed for taking us over the cliff. Sad thing is, they are not working to help the country as a whole, just posturing to act like they care. Working together as a group is a foreign idea to all of them!

[Takeda Shingen]

What'll happen is the two sides will come together long enough to pass an emergency bill and kick the can down the road. Then we get to do this whole thing again during the summer.

[Aces]

Phew, That title gave me a few hyper-ventillating moments!.

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/love-3-cliff-richard-590x350.jpg

I thought that Fiscal Cliff would top the Christmas No.1 singles chart again, I've never forgiven him for "The Millennium Prayer".

As Marlon Brando said in Apolcalpse Now "The Horror"!

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzjAauTcsegBk9fr_NfIkKsAMg46skb tXkvwUm7SFo0mqwtKsQOA

Cheers

Aces

[magic452]

I always thought our UK deficit was large but the US one dwarfs that.

I sometimes wonder what percentage tax rise would be needed to reduce them over say a ten or twenty year period.

Jim check out this link, National debt clock.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Look at the one on the bottom called Unfunded Liabilities. Yes that is Trillions.
That is the one nobody is talking about but we still have to pay.
Also look at the debt per taxpayer.
These clowns can't even cut a few billion much less do anything about these.
One day, don't know when, but the chit's gonna hit the fan.

Your Toff boys are puppy poop compared to ours.

Magic

[AVGWarhawk]

This will never pass. Pelosi will insist we go over the cliff. She will pass a bill that concerns plastic surgery. The remaining face lifts she will endure are now at tax payors expense. :haha:

I believe the middle class will get a bump. Certainly for Obamacare. Let's not get into that loser of a proposition. The biggest question is what bump for those making $250,000 a year. The question of cutting spending is still in the balance.

[Jimbuna]

Jim check out this link, National debt clock.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Look at the one on the bottom called Unfunded Liabilities. Yes that is Trillions.
That is the one nobody is talking about but we still have to pay.
Also look at the debt per taxpayer.
These clowns can't even cut a few billion much less do anything about these.
One day, don't know when, but the chit's gonna hit the fan.

Your Toff boys are puppy poop compared to ours.

Magic

Wow!! :o

Certainly puts things into perspective for me :)

[em2nought]

The question of cutting spending is still in the balance.

Like cutting spending is ever going to happen in a meaningful way LMFAO :har:

[Platapus]

And of course congress can always just say no to the "mandatory" changes and pass the buck to the next congress.

[Armistead]

Jim check out this link, National debt clock.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Look at the one on the bottom called Unfunded Liabilities. Yes that is Trillions.
That is the one nobody is talking about but we still have to pay.
Also look at the debt per taxpayer.
These clowns can't even cut a few billion much less do anything about these.
One day, don't know when, but the chit's gonna hit the fan.

Your Toff boys are puppy poop compared to ours.

Magic


Last I read, the US owes more money than contained in all banks and stock markets in the world combined..

[Platapus]

Last I read, the US owes more money than contained in all banks and stock markets in the world combined..

But since the majority of the debt is held by the Federal, state governments as well as the citizens of the US, I doubt we are going to foreclose on ourselves?

For the most part the "debt" is just a political tool to get the citizens riled up. :yep:

Every time a politician brings up the "debt", what are they asking for? Increased political power of some sort. Some increased control over something. I have never heard of a politician claiming that the solution to the "debt problem" is less power/authority. It is usually "give me or my people more political power than my opponents".

[CaptainHaplo]

Platapus - in a sense though - isn't less spending - whether on military or social programs - exactly that? Less Government spending equates to less governmental control - over lives, the economy, or the world itself?

This really is where the "debt" issue ends up going off track. JimBuna asked about how much taxes were needed. Why is it somehow not reasonable to expect Government to "live within its means"?

[mookiemookie]

There's going to be an 11th hour deal that no one is going to be happy with and the whole "fiscal cliff" thing will blow over.

I still moved my entire 401k to cash for now, just in case.

[AVGWarhawk]

I still moved my entire 401k to cash for now, just in case.

Why do that? Taxes on capital gains, dividends and estates are going to skyrocket. Hence the sell off of stocks now for reduced taxes. What 401k program do you have that allows you to liquidate to cash, hide it and reinvest later without penalty? Did you initiate a loan on it?

[TorpX]

Platapus - in a sense though - isn't less spending - whether on military or social programs - exactly that? Less Government spending equates to less governmental control - over lives, the economy, or the world itself?

This really is where the "debt" issue ends up going off track. JimBuna asked about how much taxes were needed. Why is it somehow not reasonable to expect Government to "live within its means"?
This is the most sensible thing I've read all year.

+1 :up:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Platapus - in a sense though - isn't less spending - whether on military or social programs - exactly that? Less Government spending equates to less governmental control - over lives, the economy, or the world itself?

This really is where the "debt" issue ends up going off track. JimBuna asked about how much taxes were needed. Why is it somehow not reasonable to expect Government to "live within its means"?Reality check:

What makes politician look good?

Creating jobs to his/her district/state.

What is easiest way to do that?

Funding government program. Such as new weapons system, naval warship etc...

[Jimbuna]

There's going to be an 11th hour deal that no one is going to be happy with and the whole "fiscal cliff" thing will blow over.

I still moved my entire 401k to cash for now, just in case.

Wise choice...I'd have done the same :sunny:

[AVGWarhawk]

What choice is that? Personally I would like to know how 'moving' a 401K is accomplished without penalty? Move it where? Sell off shaky investments? One can not simply cash out without a substantial tax unless you are of retirement age. A tax of upwards of 30% for early widthdrawl. So really, where is the 401K moved? Why aren't thousands doing it? Why aren't investment advisors doing this automatically for their investors?

[Armistead]

What choice is that? Personally I would like to know how 'moving' a 401K is accomplished without penalty? Move it where? Sell off shaky investments? One can not simply cash out without a substantial tax unless you are of retirement age. A tax of upwards of 30% for early widthdrawl. So really, where is the 401K moved? Why aren't thousands doing it? Why aren't investment advisors doing this automatically for their investors?

I can change my investments within my 401K once a year, simply change how it's invested from safe to risky, but it's always drawn 10% or more, except for 3 of the last 5 years. However, you certainly can't cash out before retirement without taxes and early withdrawal "fines" unless emergency medical, school, etc..still paying large taxes on it. You can usually move it to another retirement account. 401K's were designed for the rich, but came retirement plans for the middle class, if you don't plan on using it as an retirement account, better to invest elsewhere.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

We will go over the fiscal cliff. No doubts in my mind.

The Republicans can NOT vote to raise taxes. That would be political suicide.

The Democrats can not to cut spending. The powers that be will cut them off if social programs get cut.

So.. we go over the cliff.

AUTOMATICALLY taxes go up. Period. Spending gets cut . Period. Nobody has to vote for ANYTHING.

Nobody can be held accountable to the 'You voted for XXXX'. You went against the party line.. No finger pointing, finger shaking, etc. All they have to do is stand their respective 'My way is better than your way stance'.

Now, once all this has happened, they can vote to LOWER taxes on specific groups without reprisals. The 'Rich' will be taxed more. They can also vote to INCREASE spending on specific programs so the really needed social programs do not get cut.

Everyone comes out saying that they voted for the things that they 'stood for'. Nobody loses any 'face' or can be called out that they are 'not on board'.

This is a lame way to fix spending without coming out and saying what really needed to be done.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hence my guestion. I already invest conservatively in my 401k. I can't move it anywhere other than in different funds or cash out. It is still out there and can take a hit. There is not much moving one can do to protect against loss. Maybe minimize loss but certainly always a risk. The real issue with 401k is possibly new legislation that reduces the amount one can put in the account. This frees up taxable income. Nice huh? Plus, raising the tax when money is taken for retirement. Honestly, we get screwed by taxes no matter what we spend or save. It is a crock of crap watching these stuffed shirts play for weeks on end with our daily lives and our retirement lives to come concerning taxes. The entire lot suck.

[AVGWarhawk]

We will go over the fiscal cliff. No doubts in my mind.

The Republicans can NOT vote to raise taxes. That would be political suicide.

The Democrats can not to cut spending. The powers that be will cut them off if social programs get cut.

So.. we go over the cliff.

AUTOMATICALLY taxes go up. Period. Spending gets cut . Period. Nobody has to vote for ANYTHING.

Nobody can be held accountable to the 'You voted for XXXX'. You went against the party line.. No finger pointing, finger shaking, etc. All they have to do is stand their respective 'My way is better than your way stance'.

Now, once all this has happened, they can vote to LOWER taxes on specific groups without reprisals. The 'Rich' will be taxed more. They can also vote to INCREASE spending on specific programs so the really needed social programs do not get cut.

Everyone comes out saying that they voted for the things that they 'stood for'. Nobody loses any 'face' or can be called out that they are 'not on board'.

This is a lame way to fix spending without coming out and saying what really needed to be done.



My mind believes they want to go over. The influx of cash would be like winning the lottery. Taxes could be at the same level as the Clinton era.

[Takeda Shingen]

We will go over the fiscal cliff. No doubts in my mind.

The Republicans can NOT vote to raise taxes. That would be political suicide.

The Democrats can not to cut spending. The powers that be will cut them off if social programs get cut.

So.. we go over the cliff.

AUTOMATICALLY taxes go up. Period. Spending gets cut . Period. Nobody has to vote for ANYTHING.

Nobody can be held accountable to the 'You voted for XXXX'. You went against the party line.. No finger pointing, finger shaking, etc. All they have to do is stand their respective 'My way is better than your way stance'.

Now, once all this has happened, they can vote to LOWER taxes on specific groups without reprisals. The 'Rich' will be taxed more. They can also vote to INCREASE spending on specific programs so the really needed social programs do not get cut.

Everyone comes out saying that they voted for the things that they 'stood for'. Nobody loses any 'face' or can be called out that they are 'not on board'.

This is a lame way to fix spending without coming out and saying what really needed to be done.


Pretty much. The problem is so big that we will need both spending cuts and tax incrases to fix it. Tax increases will have to be across the board, not just one segment of society. Spending cuts will have to be in both social programs and defense. It is a painful pill to swallow, but it is necessary. After all, you can only cut so much and you can only tax so much. However, none of our leaders have that 'Gerald Ford' courage to do the right thing in that regard. Yes, it will likely mean the end of their political career, but aren't they elected to that office to make the tough decisions? Is that not what we expect?

Instead we get this 'fiscal cliff' stuff, as you said above.

[AVGWarhawk]

The economy will grind to a halt. Hmmmmm......not much war going on. Where are the billions that were pumped into Iraq going?

[Armistead]

Hence my guestion. I already invest conservatively in my 401k. I can't move it anywhere other than in different funds or cash out. It is still out there and can take a hit. There is not much moving one can do to protect against loss. Maybe minimize loss but certainly always a risk. The real issue with 401k is possibly new legislation that reduces the amount one can put in the account. This frees up taxable income. Nice huh? Plus, raising the tax when money is taken for retirement. Honestly, we get screwed by taxes no matter what we spend or save. It is a crock of crap watching these stuffed shirts play for weeks on end with our daily lives and our retirement lives to come concerning taxes. The entire lot suck.

The risk is there, Americans lost billions in 401 savings the first year the housing market, bank fiasco crash. Those in high risk really took a hit.
Even when you have your money in high risk, the powers that be that invest your money can choose what risky stocks they will purchase, you can win or lose... I lost about 3 years gain in one year, about 60 K...that hurt. Obvious I would've moved it, but again, I only get that choice once a year.

[mookiemookie]

What choice is that? Personally I would like to know how 'moving' a 401K is accomplished without penalty? Move it where? Sell off shaky investments? One can not simply cash out without a substantial tax unless you are of retirement age. A tax of upwards of 30% for early widthdrawl. So really, where is the 401K moved? Why aren't thousands doing it? Why aren't investment advisors doing this automatically for their investors?

You have fund choices within your 401k. You can choose to allocate your contributions however you choose within the 401k, be it 10% in the XYZ bond fund, 30% in the stock growth fund, etc.

You may also reallocate your invested dollars as you see fit. You're not taking any money out, so there's no penalties. I simply told the fund manager to liquidate my bond and stock mutual fund holdings and moved them into the money market fund (i.e. "cash") within my 401k. Now they do put restrictions on how much you can move your money around. Most funds will not let you move your money back in within 30 days of a withdrawal, but I'm fine with letting it sit in cash while this whole soap opera plays out. Once a deal gets done, I'll move it back into the funds where I had it invested beforehand.

Hence my guestion. I already invest conservatively in my 401k. I can't move it anywhere other than in different funds or cash out. It is still out there and can take a hit. There is not much moving one can do to protect against loss. Maybe minimize loss but certainly always a risk. I guarantee you that one of your fund choices is a money market fund. Put it there. That's pretty much as good as cash.

[Armistead]

You have fund choices within your 401k. You can choose to allocate your contributions however you choose within the 401k, be it 10% in the XYZ bond fund, 30% in the stock growth fund, etc.

You may also reallocate your invested dollars as you see fit. You're not taking any money out, so there's no penalties. I simply told the fund manager to liquidate my bond and stock mutual fund holdings and moved them into the money market fund (i.e. "cash") within my 401k. Now they do put restrictions on how much you can move your money around. Most funds will not let you move your money back in within 30 days of a withdrawal, but I'm fine with letting it sit in cash while this whole soap opera plays out. Once a deal gets done, I'll move it back into the funds where I had it invested beforehand.

I guarantee you that one of your fund choices is a money market fund. Put it there. That's pretty much as good as cash.

Yea, but most only allow 1 or two movements a year. I didn't know any existed that let you move your funds on the fly, but I suspect they exist.

[AVGWarhawk]

Got it Mookie, not the impression I got when you stated you moved it. Moving it comes with rules and strings. Amount one can swing. Money is off the market. Sounded like you have a huge mattress at home. :haha:

A lot are letting it sit as cash. Particularly stock portfolio. Investors want to beat the impending tax hikes. George Lucas sold his company to Disney this year for a reason. Millions of them.

Edit: I forgot to add....the 401K is going to be a juicy target for this administration.

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20853624

Tick Tock Tick Tock.... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnNl2uph-D8)

[Jimbuna]

Was watching that film very recently :)

This could well be the year where they do go over the cliff edge and plunge the US into an inevitable recession :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Much to my shame I do not have that on DVD yet, I will have to change that in the New Year post haste.

I, personally, don't think that they'd be reckless enough to go off the 'cliff' but each time they push it a little closer before striking a deal. This sort of brinkmanship is not going to make the markets particularly confident and may do more harm than good in the long run...but c'est la Washington.

[Jimbuna]

Have you seen the film yet?

[Skybird]

This could well be the year where they do go over the cliff edge and plunge the US into an inevitable recession :hmmm:
Just the US...?

The US party trench warfare ruins much more than just the US. It ruins European and Asian markets as well.

On the other hand, there is no solution anyway. If your existential crisis is coming from debts, debts and more debts, than making even more debts and printing money like crazy solves nothing. Just delays the collapse of the card-house until one is hopefully out of office and cannot be sued or held responsible anymore.

Snowball systems maybe should be accepted for Olympic competition. It seems everybody is preaching them these days.

[geetrue]

Nothing happening today with only four days to go. The major players aren't even all in place yet.

Could it be that the rich people that support our countries law makers don't want to be the only people that have their taxes increased?

The republicans already have a bill in the senate that the senate won't pass and the democrat senators have a bill in the house that the house won't pass.

One of these two bills could be passed imediately and the bill on the presidents desk by monday.

Something bigger is loaming that doesn't meet the eyes of the poor people, remember us the 47% that don't pay taxes lol


The House has acted on two bills which collectively would avert the entire fiscal cliff if enacted. Those bills await action by the Senate," he and other Republican leaders said in a statement. "If the Senate will not approve and send them to the president to be signed into law in their current form, they must be amended and returned to the House."
They said the House would either accept those bills or continue to amend them, adding: "The House will take this action on whatever the Senate can pass, but the Senate first must act."
With each side refusing to make the first move, it may be incumbent upon Obama to give a negotiated bill one last try, presuming he can get all the stakeholders in the same room. Also unclear is what role Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, who has stayed largely quiet throughout this debate, may play in pushing for an 11th-hour deal.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/27/house-senate-leaders-frozen-on-fiscal-talks-as-odds-tax-hike-rise/#ixzz2GHAWgrQe

[AVGWarhawk]

We will go over the cliff. Enjoy your tax increase. It will only hurt a little bit. Watch your 401K become a juicy target for increased taxes when used in retirement and for those still saving...a little less tax free to you that can be put away. Let's not forget the kicker of paying for healthcare that will come out of your check as well. Tossing the ever raising taxes on food and gas for good measure. Time to rethink that household budget because the blow hards in DC care very little for what taxes they themselves pay. After all, it is the tax payers money they are salaried from. Nice little set up I'd say. Ain't life grand! :yeah:

Edit: I forgot to add that the entire ordeal will be blamed on Bush from both sides of the isle.

[Oberon]

Have you seen the film yet?

Oh yes, saw it at the cinema when it first came out, both me and the wife are big fans and Nagy took us to see both it and the first one when that came out. We just haven't got around to getting it on DVD which is a bit daft of us and will have to be rectified. :yep:

[Armistead]

It's all a blame game, hurt the American people and watch both parties blame each other. The fact is they could do some things, but they would rather stick to hard lines. In fact, I think both sides want to go over the cliff, it may be the best solution since spending isn't being cut.

[AVGWarhawk]

since spending isn't being cut.

And you sir have nailed the smoke and mirrors on the head. Much of anything done in DC is smoke and mirrors, a promise not to come to light and getting to it sooner or later. Sadly, we have come to the end of the road of the euphoria of stability generated by our leaders over the decades. We have hit the "later." Retirement plans, homes and now income will be on huge automated teller machine for the government. And for what??

Edit: I was wondering what will happen when the inevitable additional tax hikes will come in a year. I think the villagers will not swallow that pill.

[Jimbuna]

Edit: I was wondering what will happen when the inevitable additional tax hikes will come in a year. I think the villagers will not swallow that pill.

Can I have your tax rebate Chris? :O:

[AVGWarhawk]

Can I have your tax rebate Chris? :O:

Yes, but the wife, kids and mortgage come with it. :O: Package deal!

[Jimbuna]

Yes, but the wife, kids and mortgage come with it. :O: Package deal!

Bugga!.....forget it :shifty:

:03:

[Schroeder]

We will go over the cliff. Enjoy your tax increase. It will only hurt a little bit. Watch your 401K become a juicy target for increased taxes when used in retirement and for those still saving...a little less tax free to you that can be put away. Let's not forget the kicker of paying for healthcare that will come out of your check as well. Tossing the ever raising taxes on food and gas for good measure.

The big question is what the alternative would be? More debts? That game went on for way to long (not just in the US but pretty much everywhere in the world).:/\\!!

[Armistead]

And you sir have nailed the smoke and mirrors on the head. Much of anything done in DC is smoke and mirrors, a promise not to come to light and getting to it sooner or later. Sadly, we have come to the end of the road of the euphoria of stability generated by our leaders over the decades. We have hit the "later." Retirement plans, homes and now income will be on huge automated teller machine for the government. And for what??

Edit: I was wondering what will happen when the inevitable additional tax hikes will come in a year. I think the villagers will not swallow that pill.

and for what you ask, well, you know of course,...entitled voters, but can you really blame them?

Americans cannot compete for jobs in the world and keep any real quality of life. The global economy will take America back 100 years as other nations go through what we did, cheap labor, no benefits or regulation. China, India, etc...are having there own industrial revolution and we're paying for it. It's creating a rich and a poor class, a very large poor class.
Sure, many are doing OK, but millions each year are losing wages, benefits, jobs....

I had a friend that had a nice corporate job, he hated all the liberal entitled voters. His job was cut....in a year he couldn't find anything close to salary and benefits. He finally sold his big home just so he could afford insurance for his sick wife. Now he can't afford that with his 30K income.

Yea, we had a great fake economy for a few decades, but now the chickens have come to roost.

[AVGWarhawk]

Exactly. A fake economy. The spectacular housing industry that was found to be based on false numbers and misguiding purchasers of homes was incredibly bad. They still use the same practice even now. GM building cars for decades and not making a dime. I can say that GM did shed the dead weight of some divisions. Unfortunate for the workers certainly. The housing industry has tougher rules to qualify. My wife and I are having a home built. The approval process was nothing short of a body cavity search with repeated entry. We will get another body cavity search before closing. I hope for a reach around. At any rate, foreclosures are coming to a end. One hopes history will not repeat itself.

But yes, I know the taxes will go to the entitlement voters. Can I blame them? Yes, quite a few I can blame. These I can blame have been on the dole long before this issue.

[geetrue]

Here's a thought for you:

Did you know that GE makes 5 billion dollars a year and pays no business taxes registered as an offshore company out of Bermuda?

Did you know that a certain unamed oil company reported a profit of 5 billion dollars last year?

Profit meaning that which is left after taking out the overhead which includes taxes :arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

The WH is in bed with GE. GE is in position to make billions when Obamacare kicks in. Take some time and Google GE and this administration.

[geetrue]

The WH is in bed with GE. GE is in position to make billions when Obamacare kicks in. Take some time and Google GE and this administration.

I'll do that for sure ... :yep:

Do you know what President Nixon and President Obama have in common?

They both need/needed prayer :know:

This is two years old ... makes you want to cry, uh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP7Lyf8-VO4

Ex NBA super star Antoine Devon Walker made over 110 million dollars but is now broke facing bankruptcy. He is forced to sell all of his assets and play in the minor leagues to raise money.

[Armistead]

Exactly. A fake economy. The spectacular housing industry that was found to be based on false numbers and misguiding purchasers of homes was incredibly bad. They still use the same practice even now. GM building cars for decades and not making a dime. I can say that GM did shed the dead weight of some divisions. Unfortunate for the workers certainly. The housing industry has tougher rules to qualify. My wife and I are having a home built. The approval process was nothing short of a body cavity search with repeated entry. We will get another body cavity search before closing. I hope for a reach around. At any rate, foreclosures are coming to a end. One hopes history will not repeat itself.

But yes, I know the taxes will go to the entitlement voters. Can I blame them? Yes, quite a few I can blame. These I can blame have been on the dole long before this issue.

Yea, but the past entitlement voters have always been around, today millions of non entitled middle class are falling into government care. Not sure what's going to happen when these programs are cut, people will circle the wagons and hang on or die.

My wife still helps part time at the SS offices, the horror stories she comes home with....They get many reports of kids going hungry and don't even have the funds to send agents to houses to check. We just had another plant close in our small town, another 400 jobs overseas....I bet they're 30 large closed mills here, only thing left is Miller....guess they need the beer closer to home.

[AVGWarhawk]

Cry me a river. Another MC Hammer and Mike Tyson story.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yea, but the past entitlement voters have always been around, today millions of non entitled middle class are falling into government care. Not sure what's going to happen when these programs are cut, people will circle the wagons and hang on or die.

My wife still helps part time at the SS offices, the horror stories she comes home with....They get many reports of kids going hungry and don't even have the funds to send agents to houses to check. We just had another plant close in our small town, another 400 jobs overseas....I bet they're 30 large closed mills here, only thing left is Miller....guess they need the beer closer to home.

That is what I said, there are a few I can blame that have been on the dole before this. I can put more blame on the govt for not getting people off the dole. The takers out voted the producers. The govt knows very well it can get ugly if the bennies are cut. The govt is an integral part of the problem. I foresee extending benefits for the unemployed. We are still in recovery. One of the longest in history. Letting the Bush era tax cuts expire will kill any recovery we have experienced in the past four years.

[Armistead]

That is what I said, there are a few I can blame that have been on the dole before this. I can put more blame on the govt for not getting people off the dole. The takers out voted the producers. The govt knows very well it can get ugly if the bennies are cut. The govt is an integral part of the problem. I foresee extending benefits for the unemployed. We are still in recovery. One of the longest in history. Letting the Bush era tax cuts expire will kill any recovery we have experienced in the past four years.

Yea, once the Bush tax cuts go, we're gonna see govt spending get even worse.....Now isn't the time to raise any taxes, we should be cutting spending big time across the board and getting govt out of every aspect of where people can do for themselves. I don't blame people when they're starving, no medical calre or shelter to go seeking govt. help, but it's gonna implode.

[AVGWarhawk]

Spending. We have spent a better part of a decade at war. Spending for war materials was out of this world. Where is the new found money not being sent to a war zone?

[mookiemookie]

A large part of the current deficit is also caused by the economic downturn. You'd think the idiots in congress would realize that and do whatever was necessary in order to prevent another recession, which is what we risk with this "fiscal cliff" according to Ben Bernanke.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would believe another recession is at risk. Everyone will have to adjust their current budget and relearn how to live with less. So here we go, taxes increase and I will bet my right arm there will be zero deficit reduction. No shovel ready projects started. Infrastructure will still continue to deteriorate. The blowhards in DC will begin their campaigning to save their jobs. Sadly, if any one of us performed our jobs like these suck-wads we would be out on the street when performance reviews were completed. The voters sit like dumb ox hoping it will all just work out and Honey Boo Boo will air at the regularly scheduled time. :88)

What does Bernanke care? All this means is he can let the printing machine take a rest for a day or so.

[Armistead]

My guess is we're going over the cliff, so all our taxes are going up. Congress will probably try to make changes for the middle class next year.
It will cost my wife about 8 grand a year at our small dog kennel. We have 4 employees, 2 part time, so got to figure medical care. We can't raise prices, so two will have to go, if not all of them and we'll put out teens to work in the afternoon.

They could've passed middle class tax relief, but that ain't happening. However, we'll continue to give a few hundred billion in aid to the world.

Most reports say if we go off the cliff, it will cost about 3 million jobs in 2013....

Our government is nothing more than a lobby controlled mafia that should be jailed, another reason we need to protect our gun rights.

[mookiemookie]

They'll screw around for another week or two, come up with some half-assed solution that only partially addresses things but mostly kicks the can down the road and make it retroactive to December 31st. Mark my words.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Unless western countries introduce some measures which promote production within their area or force other contries to similar living standards as we have then we have to accept harsh reductions in our own.

[AVGWarhawk]

They'll screw around for another week or two, come up with some half-assed solution that only partially addresses things but mostly kicks the can down the road and make it retroactive to December 31st. Mark my words.

In a nutshell but it should never come to this on any matter. It is tiresome at best.

[STEED]

Panic over...almost.

Just watching the news here as it comes in.

[AVGWarhawk]

Not holding my breath. Someone could break wind the wrong way and the deal is off. :88)

[STEED]

Not holding my breath. Someone could break wind the wrong way and the deal is off. :88)

Gas masks all round. :har:

[STEED]

Obama to make speech 18:30pm GMT...:hmmm:

Pass me a pack of crisps, roast beef flavour.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well something good is apparently happening. The market just skyrocketed.

[Oberon]

They'll have fixed a deal, they're not dumb enough to deadlock it past the due date. It's typical eleventh hour politics.

[AVGWarhawk]

they're not dumb enough to deadlock it

You are giving them to much credit. :haha:

[STEED]

Too be honest this was kicked into the long grass back in 2011 so not very urgent.

[STEED]

And now the cream off on the DOW...Your down 20 odd points after the 60 odd points up.

18:24 update
Going down

18:27
Going up

[AVGWarhawk]

Of course it was. It needed to be buried during the elections. This is ugly for both sides.

[Oberon]

Well, they all seem happy and smiling, so a deal must have been reached. :03:


EDIT:
....or not.


Look out below, here comes the DOW Jones!

[STEED]

Get on with it man...Sorry Mr President.

[Oberon]

Get on with it man...Sorry Mr President.

TLDR?
We didn't manage to reach an agreement, it's Congresses fault, so you're all going to have to pay for their mistakes. Not my fault.


Shortly, a response will come from Congress which will say:
We didn't manage to reach an agreement, it's not our fault, it's all Obamas fault for asking too much, so you're going to have to pay for his mistakes.

[Jimbuna]

Wondering if this is the tighest finale on record :hmm2:

[STEED]

Well that was a load of nothing. :doh:

Get on with it and stop farting around.

[AVGWarhawk]

Get on with it and stop farting around.


No farting. This could ruin the entire deal.

[Armistead]

I don't see a last mintue deal...

[Armistead]

Well, were going over the cliff, shame congress can't go over. Course, congress and the govt will be getting a raise soon, why Americans suffer even more....

"Here's what happened (http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2012/12/30/obama-biden-congress-pay-freeze/1799011/): On Dec. 27, President Obama extended a freeze on federal salaries he ordered in 2010, but only until March 27, 2013. After that, he expects an end to the three-year freeze, with federal employees — including all members of Congress and Vice President Joe Biden — getting a raise of about half of 1 percent. That means rank-and-file senators and House members will get a $900 annual raise (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/31/obama-gives-congress-pay-raise/), to $174,900; House "

[Oberon]

Strangely enough, the DOW Jones is still above the opening mark, so something must be keeping optimism alive in Wall Street. Blind hope perhaps.

[Armistead]

Oh, they'll probably do a few minor things, kick the can and back to blaming each other......yet, we still vote 80% of the same idiots back in over and over...

We need term limits for congress.

[AVGWarhawk]

From what I have gathered there is an agreement on not raising the tax/cut off the Bush era cuts on the middle class. Taxes to go up on those making $400K. Child tax credit are still in effect. Another extension for unemployment benefits. Market responding.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/fiscal-cliff/biden-mcconnell-continue-cliff-talks-as-clock-winds-down/2012/12/31/66c044e2-534d-11e2-8b9e-dd8773594efc_story.html

[Armistead]

From what I have gathered there is an agreement on not raising the tax/cut off the Bush era cuts on the middle class. Taxes to go up on those making $400K. Child tax credit are still in effect. Another extension for unemployment benefits. Market responding.

"
Obama said there were “still issues to resolve” in the talks. He said he was “hopeful that Congress can get it done. But it’s not done.”

[geetrue]

I thought Bronco Obama did a good job of explaining why the GOP should see doing things his way ... seriously he has backed them into a corner.

[Oberon]

From what I have gathered there is an agreement on not raising the tax/cut off the Bush era cuts on the middle class. Taxes to go up on those making $400K. Child tax credit are still in effect. Another extension for unemployment benefits. Market responding.

DOW has gone up to a new high for today, so I guess that the bullet has been dodged for now...of course, the Schwerer Gustav size bullet is still in flight, but you take what you can get. :haha:

[eddie]

No deal has been struck, the House won't vote on it!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50333173

[Oberon]

It'll go retroactively, like mookie said. Probably get passed Thursday or Friday.

[mookiemookie]

It'll go retroactively, like mookie said. Probably get passed Thursday or Friday.

Give this man a cigar.

What Congress has made (the self-imposed December 31st deadline) they can un-make. All they have to do is get it done within the next week or so, and say that it's retroactive.

Anyone that didn't think it would come down to this is fooling themselves. If one side had agreed to something before now, their supporters would have been furious and asked "what else would we have gotten if we had pushed the other side to the deadline?"

[Platapus]

Oh, they'll probably do a few minor things, kick the can and back to blaming each other......yet, we still vote 80% of the same idiots back in over and over...

We need term limits for congress.

We do have term limits on congress. The citizens choose not to use them.

[Platapus]

http://timeopinions.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/cartoon53.jpg?w=720

[mookiemookie]

We do have term limits on congress. The citizens choose not to use them.

Hah! Like I always tell people who bang the term limits drum: "We have term limits. They're called 'elections.'"

It's never one's OWN member of Congress who's the problem. It's always everyone else's. And that's why we are stuck with the situation we're stuck with.

[August]

It's never one's OWN member of Congress who's the problem. It's always everyone else's. And that's why we are stuck with the situation we're stuck with.


Well that's not quite true. The way I see it all of my states members of Congress are major parts of the problem.

[Jimbuna]

So is it now a case of uncircling the wagons and doing the inevitable deal retroactively in a week or so?

If that is the case it'll be interesting to see what effect it has on the European stock exchanges and in my personal interests....the FTSE

[STEED]

So America fell off the cliff on to a trampoline. :-?

Jim forget it, stock markets are now controlled by speculative trading without a care in the world for the rest of us.

[Jimbuna]

So America fell off the cliff on to a trampoline. :-?

Jim forget it, stock markets are now controlled by speculative trading without a care in the world for the rest of us.

Very true but it still effects the smaller investors even if it is those who club together with the investment houses.

[Tribesman]

Well that's not quite true. The way I see it all of my states members of Congress are major parts of the problem.
That is only because they are all Team D and you are a cheerleader against that flavour team

[Oberon]

Also, it's lucky that today is a national holiday so all the markets will be closed, tomorrow will be when it starts to be felt, but Steed has a point that since it's done on mostly speculative data, then since the Senate has passed this deal, and it's trickling down to the House, then by Wednesday it should be about ready to roll and the markets will come out strong.

Providing of course that the House doesn't reject it. It's got until Wednesday, and then it'll be replaced by the House elected in November, which has a slimmer majority than the current one, so they might want to stall until then for political football, I don't know. We shall see.

[AVGWarhawk]

stock markets are now controlled by speculative trading without a care in the world for the rest of us.

This is nothing new.

[Platapus]

Hah! Like I always tell people who bang the term limits drum: "We have term limits. They're called 'elections.'"

It's never one's OWN member of Congress who's the problem. It's always everyone else's. And that's why we are stuck with the situation we're stuck with.

Just recognize what term limitations are

It is the government telling the citizens that the citizens no longer have the right to choose their state/district representative; but that the government will decide who the citizens can vote for.

Is this really what we want? Do we really want to give the government that much power over the basic element of democracy - elections.

Simply because we have term limitations on the POTUS (and idea that is worthy of debate), does not mean we should apply it to our individual representatives in congress.

Term limitations initially sounds like a good solution. But it may be a cure worse than the disease.

I prefer the citizens to maintain the right to elect who they wish to be their state/district representative in the most powerful government body we have. Even if the citizens choose to use this right unwisely.

In America, anyone can grow up to be a member of congress. That is just one of the risks we have in a representative government. :yep:

The solution is have a more educated citizenry. A citizenry who looks beyond R and D and looks at the actual individual. A citizenry who chooses as their representative, the right person and not necessarily the party person.

That is the only glimmer of hope I can see from this current congress. Perhaps this dismal congress will finally get some of the citizens to look beyond R and D and look at the actual person and what that person does/does not do.

Change will come slow. Most people will still vote party. But slowly, perhaps, we can get more people to look beyond the party.

A boy can dream.

[Skybird]

The situation is a catch-22. No matter what the US chooses to do, it will be the wrong thing. Either there is a compromise on the budget - than more debts will be made unavoidably. Or a budget policy comes from this conflict to damage Obama, that results indeed in lesser debts being added, but then the US and the rest of the world will pay an economic price in the short term, and medium term as well.

This is because the situation has been allowed since long time to hopelessly detoriate. And now it is FUBAR.

The following is my slightly cut translation of a comment by Wolfram Weimer, first published in the German "Handelsblatt".

16,500,000,000,000 dollars in debts.

The financial world closely watches Washington. The fiscal cliff one way or the other will be avoided, and America will organise the next great reshifting effort of its ever growing debt burden in order to use tricks to buy time. But the debts have reached a dimension unimaginable, that endangers the whole global economy.

The key problem of America are not the rocks of modesty and self-mastering its spending frenzy, but it is the ocean of debts washing over them. America has made so many debts in so few years, like no other state or empire in the whole history of mankind. Every single day, the American state adds another whopping 3.5 billion dollars to its already existing debts. Only an unconditional optimist can hope that this can go on for much longer without the system breaking.

The raise by 6 trillion dollars in debts by Obama'S first legislation period, are a historical fanal. By that he has surmounted so many debts like all American governments from George Washington until the introduction of Bill Clinton together. The woes we have over Greece, are hilarious compared to the disaster that is being bred in the US.

But also the view on the contemporary budget discipline is reminding of a chaos that is beyond all repair. According to the FED, the yearly deficit per every year of the past four years in Obama's first legislation, had climbed to a yearly mean value of 1274 billion dollars. A thought experiment reveals what this number means: a human born in the year of Jesus' birth, who on every single day since then until our present today would have added an additonal 1 million in personal debts, would today still have smaller debts in total than the US is accumulating in just one single year.

Compared to that, the debt-drowning European continent appears to be almost solid and healthy. Because Washington in just one day adds as many new, additonal debts, than a state like Bulgaria currently has in total. In the past year alone it has made as many new debts, as all of Eastern Europe, the Baltic states, all of scandinavia, Greece, Portugal and Ireland have mounted up in decades.

An ecnomiy professor from the university of freiburg, Bernd Raffelhüschen, additionally warns of the "Nachhaltigkeitslücke" (=maintenance gap?) of the US. With a total debt level of 110% of the GNP, Washington not only has an exceptionally high explicit debt. The implicit debts hidden in the social costs (future pensioneers etc) is biblical and surpasses the national economic power, the GNP, by several factors.

The currenbt haggling while balancing on the fiscal cliff, so one could only hope, would lead America to a general reversing in its misled fincancial policies. America would need a giant solidarity program which would need a massive increase in general taxes, and a draconic cut in spendings at the same time. For the short-termed economic prospects regarding a hoped-for "boom time", this maybe would not be really helpful. But at least it would by far not be as self-destructive as the current "after-me-the-end-of-the world"-policy, that by now already is a lethal threat to the whole global economy system.

Because if already the crash of a single bank like Lehman or the bancrupcty of a small state like Greece sends threatening shockwaves through the global system, what kind of an earthquake will flatten it all if the financial markets give up on America? Already by now the US has to pay every year an interest of 500 billion for its already existing debts. The FED still pushes the faiy tale solution of just printing increasingly worthless money unlimitedly, to keep the debt machine moving on on an well-oiled, greasy trail. But when the belief in this miraculous multiplying of money from nothing will come to an end, total disaster, an economic catstrophe never seen before, threatens to crack down on the whole globe. It is high time that America starts to remember the words by George Washington, who wrote in 1799 already: one must not allow new debts for the purpose of financing already existing debts.

---

Well. It will not happen. Too much ideological blindness. Too much egoism. Too many politicians trying to abuse the present for their career and own interest, hoping to delay the disaster long enough so that it does not happen as long as they are still in office themselves. Too much lobbyism.

[Oberon]

Oh, I think the time to fix the debt was about a decade ago, or at the very least half a decade ago. Certainly adding to it was a stupid idea though, can't argue that. Still, we're far past the point of no return and sailing off into the sunset. I don't know what the answer to the sixteen trillion dollar question is, and I don't think the folks in Washington know either. They're just plastering the cracks and hoping the dam doesn't collapse.

Anyway, the House has passed the deal, so the jump off the cliff has been avoided by moving the cliff.

See you next time. :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

So, what happened? Did we get a deal? I've been humming songs with my fingers in my ears all day... :dead:

[Oberon]

So, what happened? Did we get a deal? I've been humming songs with my fingers in my ears all day... :dead:

When did you get elected to Congress?! :haha:

Yeah, a deal has been passed, although I dare say both sides will condemn it as being 'not enough'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20886182

It was looking rocky for a while until a closed session suddenly brought them around, no idea what was said in the closed session, probably something along the lines of "For the love of God, can we just pass something today, before we all get lynched by the people we're supposed to be serving?"

I feel your frustration America, I thought our clowns were bad. :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

The stock market is currently going ballistic. Let see if the gains have staying power for the entire day. :hmmm:

[STEED]

The stock market is currently going ballistic. Let see if the gains have staying power for the entire day. :hmmm:

Possible but in the end they will cream it off.

So its all delayed by agreeing to some sort of fudge job.

[Jimbuna]

The stock market is currently going ballistic. Let see if the gains have staying power for the entire day. :hmmm:

No problem there but the real question is how will the markets react to between now and two months time when the real negotiations are taking place.

If I were in a position to I'd sell before the weekend of next tbh.

[August]

Now we find out the true reason for all the brinkmanship. The Fiscal Cliff bill is loaded with pork spending and they didn't want to give anyone time to find out before they had to vote on it.

Now campaign promises to the contrary the middle class still gets a tax increase in the form of a 2% hike in social security taxes but the bill ensures that Hollywood gets to knock off $430 Billion a year from their taxes just for making their films in the US, and a bunch of other costly stuff that we can't afford and shouldn't have to.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/02/fiscal-cliff-pork-asparagus-nascar-rum

They have learned nothing. :nope:

[geetrue]

If you can't change the President ... you can't change Washington :oops:

This is a great explanation of what happened ...
if you care to read it you will see why we (the USA) have been served up a con job: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20130102,0,573514.column

The 'fiscal cliff' con game

By Michael Hiltzik
January 2, 2013


Whatever the ultimate shape of the "fiscal cliff (http://www.latimes.com/topic/fiscal-cliff/EVBAE00011.topic)" solution that has preoccupied all Washington, and a fair swath of the rest of country, in the final days of 2012 and into the new year, Americans of all walks of life should be asking themselves this question: How do we like being conned?

The deal, passed by the Senate (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-senate-ORGOV0000134.topic) on New Year's morning, was made final late Tuesday when the House of Representatives (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/u.s.-house-of-representatives-ORGOV0000135.topic) signed on. Its essential elements include expiration of the President George W. Bush (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/presidents-of-the-united-states/george-bush-PEPLT000857.topic)-era income and capital gains tax cuts on couples' incomes over $450,000, and a modest increase in the estate tax.

Unemployment benefits and tax credits for lower-income families will be extended. The payroll tax holiday that replaced a low- and middle-income tax credit in 2009 will end, but the tax credit won't return.

Many other items, including the fate of automatic spending cuts mandated by the 2011 debt-ceiling deal, are being put off for weeks or months. Another debt-ceiling fight looms on the near horizon.


Still not convinced? Read the LA Times article.

Almost everything mentioned above involves a con game of one sort or another, because almost none of it is what it seems on the surface.

[Platapus]

It is depressing. I don't really see a solution. The founding dudes did not envision a problem with allowing congress to make the rules for congress and to allow congress to monitor congress.

If that ain't conflict of interest, I don't know what is. :yep:

The only hope for forcing changes in congress would be a national convention and that would take 2/3rds of the state legislators to request it. Maybe things will get so bad that 34 state legislators could agree on something and force a national convention. But I doubt it. :nope:

We are in a bad situation and congress does not seem to care. :/\\!!

I have a feeling that in the next few years, many incumbents will be surprised. :yep:

I used to think "when in doubt, vote em out" But there really is not a lot of doubt any more.

Most depressing.

[Tribesman]

but the bill ensures that Hollywood gets to knock off $430 Billion a year from their taxes just for making their films in the US, and a bunch of other costly stuff that we can't afford and shouldn't have to.

Hey thats not fair, we give them tax breaks so they make their films over here instead of in the US
Oh well maybe we can get the French to outsource their film industry instead by offering them bigger breaks to film here.

I wonder if an independant Texas could take the US film business by offering tax breaks?

I used to think "when in doubt, vote em out" But there really is not a lot of doubt any more.

Do you think the next bunch you voted in would be any different from the current bunch?

[AVGWarhawk]

Did anyone really expect a clean concise bill?

Jimbuna
No problem there but the real question is how will the markets react to between now and two months time when the real negotiations are taking place.

The negotiations are done. The next question is spending cuts. There may not be any negotiations at all. They could not agree and vote on a budget in 4 years. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[geetrue]

I heard it was the highest stock market gains of any new year ever recorded both before and after the new year :hmmm:

[em2nought]

I heard it was the highest stock market gains of any new year ever recorded both before and after the new year :hmmm:

Cool, hopefully gold will drop a bit so I can get a better deal. :D

[magic452]

You're a little late for gold. If you're interested in bullion I'd look at 5 oz silver coins. If gold the British Sovereign. Nothing larger then these two. If you don't know why I would suggest you do some research on tax issues. Namely Income reporting, long term capital gains, gift tax and inheritance tax.

All my gold is in 5 oz. bullion bars and I sure wish it wasn't. If I can nurse it to $1,800 an oz I'll correct that problem.

Magic

[Tribesman]

Did anyone really expect a clean concise bill?

Is there ever such a thing?

[AVGWarhawk]

Is there ever such a thing?

Yes, my electric, water and cable bill are concise. :O:

[AVGWarhawk]

I heard it was the highest stock market gains of any new year ever recorded both before and after the new year :hmmm:

The question is will the trend continue. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

The question is will the trend continue. :hmmm:
Wrong question. Either way, new debts will be made and added to the already stellar amount of explicit debts, not even mentioning implicit debts, which are many times as worse.

So the only question is how long can the trend continue anymore? How long when you count your total real debts in dozens of trillions? Multiple factors of your GNP?

You're already done. You just stick your head into the sand in denial. And all others do that, too. For due to our fantastic idea to turn all money-related topics into a global monoculture, the fall of one giant like USA will pull others down with him as well. Even more when the others are not really that well-situated with their financial status, too.

They will try this "trend" you asked about as long as possible, however. Since there is no alternative that does not border immediate suicide. It's all far beyond PNR. The choice is immediate destruction, or delayed destruction.

A "solution" I do not see anymore, and cannot imagine anymore. It has all detoriated all too far. Dozens of trillions in American debts, trillions and trillions for other industrial heavyweights as well - c'mon. Solution...? What kind of stuff is somebody on if he still dreams of a "solution"...? Collapse, cleansing, rebuilding from scratch, and very differently (hopefully) - that's what it will be in the best scenario. In the worst, it will just be collapse, and then nothing for a long time to come.

I would even say, seen from that perspective, that collapse is not just inevitable, but even highly desirable. Like you jump off a sinking ship and try to win distance before it catches you in the maelstrom when going down, and pulling you down allong with it.

When the roof starts to come down, you'd better be somewhere else.

em2nought, you are definitely too late for gold.

BTW, possessing gold does not make you invulnerable. Both the US and Germany have seen times when the state prohibited the possession of gold, and the police raided private homes to confiscate gold reserves of private people. When politicians think the only way to save their skin is to expropriate you and force you to give all you have for restarting the currency that they have messed up before, they have done that before - and they will do it again. - Same is true for land property and house property. We have been there, we are going there again in Germany, no doubt.

History knows times and places where even the possession of silver was prohibited due to economic and financial crisis.

When the sh!t starts hitting the fan, there is no escape, for nobody.

[AVGWarhawk]

Skybird:
Wrong question.

Only in your world.

Skybird:
When the sh!t starts hitting the fan, there is no escape, for nobody.

I guess I should start digging the hole and stockpiling canned beans? Perhaps just blow it all and enjoy the time I have left before the inevitable collapse of society globally.

[Onkel Neal]

When did you get elected to Congress?! :haha:



Lol, I wish. You cannot imagine what that would look like :03:

I wish they would stop calling Social Security an "entitlement" program. I'm entitled to what I paid for over 35 years? :hmph:

[AVGWarhawk]

I wish they would stop calling Social Security an "entitlement" program. I'm entitled to what I paid for over 35 years? :hmph:

Agreed. I have paid since I was 15 years old. 33 years. I was told it would be there when I retire if I contribute now. Where is my dough? :stare:

[mookiemookie]

I wish they would stop calling Social Security an "entitlement" program. I'm entitled to what I paid for over 35 years? :hmph:

It's because the political spinmeisters have abused the term. The definition of an "entitlement" program is a program that is automatically funded without Congress reauthorizing it every year. Politicians have corrupted the meaning of the term to mean any program that the lazy (blacks/hispanics/leftists/union members/teachers/hippies/Democrats/communists/whatever the group of the week to hate/etc.) feel like they're "entitled" to.

It's the same way the creationists have tried to corrupt the word "theory" when referring to a scientific explanation for something.

[AVGWarhawk]

Politicians have corrupted the meaning of the term to mean any program that the lazy (blacks/hispanics/leftists/union members/teachers/hippies/Democrats/communists/whatever the group of the week to hate/etc.) feel like they're "entitled" to.



Where do caucasian fit in your list? Are they grouped under Democrats? :hmmm:

[em2nought]

You're a little late for gold. If you're interested in bullion I'd look at 5 oz silver coins. If gold the British Sovereign. Nothing larger then these two. If you don't know why I would suggest you do some research on tax issues. Namely Income reporting, long term capital gains, gift tax and inheritance tax.

All my gold is in 5 oz. bullion bars and I sure wish it wasn't. If I can nurse it to $1,800 an oz I'll correct that problem.

Magic
Why the 5oz coins specifically? Instead of say .9999 silver maples?

[magic452]

Why the 5oz coins specifically? Instead of say .9999 silver maples?

It's not a particular coin or bar that's important but the max size 5 oz.
You want a coin to price under $600.00.

Magic

[Skybird]

Perhaps just blow it all and enjoy the time I have left before the inevitable collapse of society globally.

Well, there is a difference between fatalism and joy of life. And life is an uncertain thing - every day. So enjoying the time you have left is good advise always, no matter the circumstances, because you cannot be sure of even just the next day. :yep: A collapse will come, we are so deep i n the mess that it is superstitious almost to assume we could escape it without major conflict and drama. It simply is unreasonable and undefendable to assume that.

---

For German tongues: what inflation, deflation and state interests have too do with each other, and why business and states cannot have an interest anymore in having reason regulating the finance market anymore - it would mean immediate and total annihilation of almost every bank and most companies. That guy is high on my esteem list, I know him from other contexts. Brilliant man.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/deflation_und_inflation_auch_2013_eintraechtig_bei einander/

So we are doomed to continue with shooting ourselves in the head. Happy new year.

If I am bored these days, maybe I translate it then.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, there is a difference between fatalism and joy of life. And life is an uncertain thing - every day. So enjoying the time you have left is good advise always, no matter the circumstances, because you cannot be sure of even just the next day. :yep: A collapse will come, we are so deep i n the mess that it is superstitious almost to assume we could escape it without major conflict and drama. It simply is unreasonable and undefendable to assume that.



Hence the problem with society today. Everything is fatalism, gloom and doom. For decades men have stood on street corners with signs reading the end is near. Yet here we are. The media if full of nothing but bad news. How deep are we really in a mess? Has there been a time when the world was not in a deep mess? Major conflict and drama. There is always major conflict and drama. The only thing that has changed is we get fed the major conflict and drama instantaneously via the internet. Within in seconds the drama can be pumped to your desktop from hundreds of sources. In short, the world probably does not look very different from years ago with exception of us getting to see more of it at light speed as it streams to our monitors. The world has lived through depressions, wars, feast and famine. The only difference today, IMO, is we get to see it all in the comfort of our homes behind the warm glow of a monitor.

[Armistead]

Agreed. I have paid since I was 15 years old. 33 years. I was told it would be there when I retire if I contribute now. Where is my dough? :stare:

Yea, same, 50 years old, been paying in since 15, maybe I'll slip by and not have to wait until 80 to retire.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yea, same, 50 years old, been paying in since 15, maybe I'll slip by and not have to wait until 80 to retire.

:haha: 80? :haha: By the time we reach 80 the retirement age will be increased to 95. I'm truly of the mind the age one can retire with full SS benefits will continue to increase. We will never catch it. Much to slow with a cane. :haha:

[August]

:haha: 80? :haha: By the time we reach 80 the retirement age will be increased to 95. I'm truly of the mind the age one can retire with full SS benefits will continue to increase. We will never catch it. Much to slow with a cane. :haha:

This guy understands your plight:

http://robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com/1970/06/ghthhtjv0.jpg?w=450

[Armistead]

:haha: 80? :haha: By the time we reach 80 the retirement age will be increased to 95. I'm truly of the mind the age one can retire with full SS benefits will continue to increase. We will never catch it. Much to slow with a cane. :haha:

Guess we can wheel into work with our IV's of chemo....

Let's face it, we were robbed of all that money, it's long gone. Guess when I reach retirement and it's gone I can go rob a govt. funded bank. Doesn't matter if I get caught and go to jail, free food, bed, TV, good medical care and hopefully no one will find me attractive.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, the age old argument is SS was not to be the sole form of your retirement funding. That is all well and dandy but I was told if I contribute it will be there for me. So like I said, were is my dough Mac? :stare:

[August]

Well, the age old argument is SS was not to be the sole form of your retirement funding. That is all well and dandy but I was told if I contribute it will be there for me. So like I said, were is my dough Mac? :stare:

Yeah! And if they can't or won't fulfill their obligations then I want back every penny I contributed into it as well as 40 years of interest.

[Armistead]

Yeah! And if they can't or won't fulfill their obligations then I want back every penny I contributed into it as well as 40 years of interest.

:har::har:

You would be worth a million...

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah! And if they can't or won't fulfill their obligations then I want back every penny I contributed into it as well as 40 years of interest.

http://j.static-locatetv.com/images/content/4/179955_pipe_dream.jpg

[Skybird]

Hence the problem with society today. Everything is fatalism, gloom and doom. For decades men have stood on street corners with signs reading the end is near. Yet here we are. The media if full of nothing but bad news. How deep are we really in a mess? Has there been a time when the world was not in a deep mess? Major conflict and drama. There is always major conflict and drama. The only thing that has changed is we get fed the major conflict and drama instantaneously via the internet. Within in seconds the drama can be pumped to your desktop from hundreds of sources. In short, the world probably does not look very different from years ago with exception of us getting to see more of it at light speed as it streams to our monitors. The world has lived through depressions, wars, feast and famine. The only difference today, IMO, is we get to see it all in the comfort of our homes behind the warm glow of a monitor.
A guy holding up a booklet by The Watchtower I certainly do not take serious. But a history book on the hyperinflation of the 20s or the break-down of currency unions in Europe of the past 800 years - and how they all failed - I do take serious.

You see, some sectarians hiding in the cave because they predict the sky is falling, is one thing. Me being able to understand in reasonable terms and concepts today's economic links and ties, modern fiscal system etc, that is something different.

Or The Romans and ancient Greeks fearing the gods would punish them by destroying man's world - and 10,000 MIRVs in the multi-megaton range as we have had in the past couple of decades. It does not compare.

The threat of thermonuclear war is real, not just a sick psyche or superstitious hear-say. So is today's economic and financial system - it's real.

:03:

[geetrue]

Europe can learn from our mistakes not to hire young black men in their 40's with no prior business experience to run their country :woot:

[Jimbuna]

Well, the age old argument is SS was not to be the sole form of your retirement funding. That is all well and dandy but I was told if I contribute it will be there for me. So like I said, were is my dough Mac? :stare:

Chris....we got fed the same crap in the UK, my retirement age was to be 65 and the wifes 60 but they have both been rounded up to 66 each....I give thanks my police/government pension remained untouched (I received mine at the age of fifty....five years ago) but my wife is understandably 'pissed off'.

I had one year added but she had six....so much for equality :stare:

[AVGWarhawk]

I remember the conversation about it a few months ago Jim. They jacked up your requirement. Age 62 I call it quits. Working the extra years for full benefits of SS is not worth the aggravation. I have saved on my own and still continue to do so. I did not and do not depend on anything coming from the government. :03:

[August]

http://j.static-locatetv.com/images/content/4/179955_pipe_dream.jpg

So you think we should just roll over and let them take it?

[Onkel Neal]

It's because the political spinmeisters have abused the term. The definition of an "entitlement" program is a program that is automatically funded without Congress reauthorizing it every year. Politicians have corrupted the meaning of the term to mean any program that the lazy (blacks/hispanics/leftists/union members/teachers/hippies/Democrats/communists/whatever the group of the week to hate/etc.) feel like they're "entitled" to.

It's the same way the creationists have tried to corrupt the word "theory" when referring to a scientific explanation for something.

I'm just wondering, is there a difference between a program that you pay into and are supposed to receive benefits; and a program that you receive benefits without making any contributions?

[AVGWarhawk]

So you think we should just roll over and let them take it?

At our advanced age are we really going to storm Capitol Hill in our Hovarounds? They expect you to roll over and take it. Millions of folks just rolled over and took 2% off the top of each pay check. I got my first tax hike showing in my pay stub today. They wasted no time in the massive cash grab. I just rolled over and took it.

[August]

I just rolled over and took it.

Did you bother to write your congress critters and complain? Letter to the editor of your local newspaper? Do anything but roll over and take it?

Our system only works when we let our elected officials know our minds in no uncertain terms. Maybe they'll ignore it but your opinion still has to be made known to them and in no uncertain terms or else they'll figure you agree with their direction and ram it to you even more.

[geetrue]

Did you bother to write your congress critters and complain? Letter to the editor of your local newspaper? Do anything but roll over and take it?

Our system only works when we let our elected officials know our minds in no uncertain terms. Maybe they'll ignore it but your opinion still has to be made known to them and in no uncertain terms or else they'll figure you agree with their direction and ram it to you even more.

That's good advice August ... :up:

Trying to convince people online of anything is a waste of time :o

I'm going to do just that ... sit down and write someone that cares a letter. :know:

You should be a teacher August :yep:

Wait a minute ... you are a teacher :D

[mookiemookie]

I'm just wondering, is there a difference between a program that you pay into and are supposed to receive benefits; and a program that you receive benefits without making any contributions?

If you pay any kind of taxes at all - payroll, SS, medicare, state, local, excise taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, income taxes - you're making contributions to those programs.

[AVGWarhawk]

If you pay any kind of taxes at all - payroll, SS, medicare, state, local, excise taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, income taxes - you're making contributions to those programs.

And you are entitled to receive a return of services or monetary compensation. :haha:

[August]

If you pay any kind of taxes at all - payroll, SS, medicare, state, local, excise taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, income taxes - you're making contributions to those programs.

Yeah but only Social Security is funded by a tax created for that specific purpose.

[AVGWarhawk]

Did you bother to write your congress critters and complain? Letter to the editor of your local newspaper? Do anything but roll over and take it?

Our system only works when we let our elected officials know our minds in no uncertain terms. Maybe they'll ignore it but your opinion still has to be made known to them and in no uncertain terms or else they'll figure you agree with their direction and ram it to you even more.

I wrote my Congressman once. I was told they are "looking into it". :shifty: I also caught our county executive in a lie. Our creek has high ecoli content. After "five years" of "study" it was determined the neighborhoods surrounding the creek has dog crap run off that is the cause for high ecoli content in the creek. In the meantime the county quietly repaired the cities main crap pipe that was cracked and feeding a tributary to the the creek for years. Not to mention the crap pump station that overflows crap when it rains. The pump station is just yards from the creek. You know what the country answer was for the "doggie crap" run off? Crap collection bags and a trash can. The real answer was the city crap pipe spilling gallons of raw sewerage in to the creek. The creek feeds the Chesapeake Bay. Does the county want that plastered all over the newspapers? Not really. Blame it on Fido.


I can go into detail on a certain road in Stewartstown PA that was fought tooth and nail but the citizens lost the battle because the road was more convenient for the city offical who's house just happened to be at the end of the newly opened road. :hmmm:


In short, I have little faith in our government. Letters are nice. They get things off your chest. IMO not much more.

[August]

In short, I have little faith in our government. Letters are nice. They get things off your chest. IMO not much more.

A lack of faith does not justify giving up and writing one single letter to one congressman is not a serious effort. It takes many letters to officials and the media, speaking up at town meetings, complaints to state ethics boards, in other words being a general pain in the butt (and this is the important part) being one that won't go away.

Those are the tactics that can and do bring results.

[AVGWarhawk]

A lack of faith does not justify giving up and writing one single letter to one congressman is not a serious effort. It takes many letters to officials and the media, speaking up at town meetings, complaints to state ethics boards, in other words being a general pain in the butt (and this is the important part) being one that won't go away.

Those are the tactics that can and do bring results.

is not a serious effort.

Sorry dad.

It takes many letters to officials

It should only take one letter. Period

in other words being a general pain in the butt

This should never be necessary. Pandering to be heard is nonsense. The last time I checked the elected officals work for the citizens. Unfortunately the self-serving elected officials believe it is the other way around.

I still have little faith. :03:

[August]

It should only take one letter. Period

Sorry I don't mean to preach AVG but why should it only take one letter? A congressman receives many emails and letters every day. Your single attempt at communication is just being lost in the background noise.

That's why I say persistence is key.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sorry I don't mean to preach AVG but why should it only take one letter? A congressman receives many emails and letters every day. Your single attempt at communication is just being lost in the background noise.

That's why I say persistence is key.

Why should I need to write multiple emails and letters? One should be sufficient. If my letter is just thrown out or glanced over what does that say for the congressman? If I addressed the myriad of emails I receive during a FEMA emergency response like said congressman I would be walking. Why should I send letter after letter? I'm expected to respond with all the background noise. If the congressman can not then perhaps another line of work is suggested.

I don't think we will agree on approaches. I have seen enough nonsense to warrant my view on how the government handles issues.

[August]

I have seen enough nonsense to warrant my view on how the government handles issues.

You're entitled to any view you want but don't complain that your government reps are ignoring you if you refuse to make your opinions known to them.

[AVGWarhawk]

You're entitled to any view you want but don't complain that your government reps are ignoring you if you refuse to make your opinions known to them.

No complaints here. You will never see another group of self-serving individuals as this. Just the reality of the situation. :up:

[August]

You will never see another group of self-serving individuals as this. Just the reality of the situation. :up:

I know. That's why I feel you need to beat them over the head repeatedly. Being self serving makes them pay attention to the numbers for or against an issue if not the content of the comments themselves.

[AVGWarhawk]

I say we beat them over the head. Then go fishing. :)

[Armistead]

Sorry I don't mean to preach AVG but why should it only take one letter? A congressman receives many emails and letters every day. Your single attempt at communication is just being lost in the background noise.

That's why I say persistence is key.

You really think it would change anything?

[August]

You really think it would change anything?


Maybe and maybe not but if you don't at least try it definitely won't.

[Platapus]

I think this guy sums it up accurately when it comes to politicians and running this country.

We all know what to do, but we don’t know how to get re-elected once we have done it. -- Jean-Claud Juncker

:yep:

[soopaman2]

Since we are on about our inept politicians, here is one trying to make a difference, and pissing into the wind (ie, going against his own party, with zero fear)


TRENTON, N.J. — Gov. Chris Christie's blunt talk has long been one of his hallmarks.
But Christie, who has verbally tangled with many, showed Wednesday he's willing to aim his barbs at the highest echelons of his own party.
In a State House news conference, Christie blasted Republican U.S. House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio for delaying a vote on a $60 billion aid package for Superstorm Sandy recovery.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/01/nj_governor_chris_christie_bla.html

That nomination in 2016 is looking foggy Mr. Christie. Especially if you keep trashing king crybaby Boner.

Harsh criticism of Boehner by elected officials in New York and New Jersey turned into a bipartisan affair Wednesday. But it was Christie's remarks that drew the most attention, both for what he said and his willingness, as a Republican with higher aspirations, to so forcefully take on Boehner and Congressional Republicans.

[August]

That nomination in 2016 is looking foggy Mr. Christie. Especially if you keep trashing king crybaby Boner.

John Boehner is not king of anything, especially the Republican party. He has absolutely no control over who they nominate or not.

As for his proclivity for tears, at least they show he has real human emotions. Completely unlike the fake tears your man Obama likes to squeeze out when he senses a political opportunity.

[soopaman2]

John Boehner is not king of anything, especially the Republican party. He has absolutely no control over who they nominate or not.

As for his proclivity for tears, at least they show he has real human emotions. Completely unlike the fake tears your man Obama likes to squeeze out when he senses a political opportunity.

My man?

Are you not American too?

He's yours too, maybe if people like you supported him he could do alot more, rather than fight him at every turn and put our country into deadlock.

[August]

My man?

Are you not American too?

He's yours too, maybe if people like you supported him he could do alot more, rather than fight him at every turn and put our country into deadlock.

He may be my president but he is not my man. He's a political animal that belongs to a party who I have even more disdain for than I have for the money grubbing Republicans.

[soopaman2]

He may be my president but he is not my man. He's a political animal that belongs to a party who I have even more disdain for than I have for the money grubbing Republicans.

Which affirms we need more than 2 parties, or even a parliament type system. I am not trying to start a grudge with you August, your a stand up guy, honest and upright. :salute:

Independant/Green/Libertarian candidates usually lose an election for the other, by drawing away votes from the other 2 parties, kinda used as a pawn to do so at times. (Ross Perot gave the election to Clinton I believe it was, despite being the best candidate of all 3)

Yes, I am liberal by belief, but for some reason, in my 16 years of voting eligibility, I only pulled the Democrat lever twice.

For the most part Dems are to wimpy. But todays crop of extremist Tea Party types has forced me to the opposite.

When I vote these days it is for what I believe to be the lesser of 2 evils. We are broken IMHO, and nothing but a revolution or drastic change in congressional term limits will fix it.
I voted for Christie though, and suggest you do the same, when you see him. He eats his own.

As a Jersey resident, who seen his work, he is a fair man, but stern.

Yeah yeah, fat jokes, Chrispie Kreme, yeah I heard it already, so has he.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOfHeUrnZoY
:D

Repubs oughta be paying me for all this free press I give their 2016 man.:D

Edit: here is another...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDuCCYX_FtA

[August]

I have nothing against Christie though I don't know all that much about him. I will tell you that I hold your recommendation in much higher regard than I would a similar statement from some media pundit.

As for third parties I understand their effect on our political system historically but who knows what will happen in the future?

[Betonov]

Which affirms we need more than 2 parties, or even a parliament type system.

SSDD. Five left parties make a coalition and five right parties make an oposition (or vice versa) and you're de facto with another 2 party system.

One question: are senator/copngresmen votings secret or public ballots :hmmm:

[August]

One question: are senator/copngresmen votings secret or public ballots :hmmm:

Public

[Betonov]

Wouldn't it be better if the ballots were cast secret. No party pressure on the voter

[August]

Wouldn't it be better if the ballots were cast secret. No party pressure on the voter


Oh you meant votes the public makes to elect a congressman? No those are secret. I thought you were referring the votes the congresscritters themselves make on bills.

[Skybird]

Just noted that there is some serious consideration given to the 1-trillion-coin trick, at least by some. So far I thought somebody just made a bad joke.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

:nope:

[Betonov]

Oh you meant votes the public makes to elect a congressman? No those are secret. I thought you were referring the votes the congresscritters themselves make on bills.

No no, the votes the congresmen make on the bills themselves.

How many votes for a good thing are lost because one is afraid to vote for what he believes is right and votes so he doesn't loose his position in the party :hmmm:

[mookiemookie]

No no, the votes the congresmen make on the bills themselves.

How many votes for a good thing are lost because one is afraid to vote for what he believes is right and votes so he doesn't loose his position in the party :hmmm:

But then how could we as voters judge the job that the congressperson is doing?

[Betonov]

But then how could we as voters judge the job that the congressperson is doing?

:hmmm:
I see, thats a problem I'm not fammiliar with