Some curious confusions from a newbie....

[Spirit X]

First of all "Hi", new player here.

Quick intro: I'm a 36 year old on the South coast of the UK. Currently been off work under the weather for a few days, so I've been drowning my sorrows by buying myself a new game to pass the hours until I can leave the house again.

I've had the odd weekend-long session on things like 688i and Sub Command before (and I love them) but the vast majority of my sub-simming experience is modern nuclear. Therefore, while I'm familiar with doing my TMA and such, it's been in a rather different context and, after dabbling with SH3 for a while, I can see I have a whole lot of stuff to learn.

I'm sure all you vets may well have heard all the below questions before but please bear with me. After reading various threads and tutorials and searching the forums, there are some things I have found unanswered that are confusing me some.

1.So the main thing I don't realy get is that in all the tutorials and stuff I've been reading on effective TMA (such as this excellent walkthrough for target interception and engagement: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961), I see everyone working out the anlges, speeds and ranges using the Nav Map. But how do you get them to show on the Nav Map? The only way I have found is to turn on the 'God's Eye View' option which seems like totally cheating.

My confusion is that if the point of the game is to use your wits and what little info you have available in order to formulate a firing solution, then by turning on the God's Eye View I'm essentially not really left with much to do am I? I mean it's all about judging that range correctly and stuff, but if the game just shows you exactly where any ship is that you have a tiny peek at through the periscope, then all you have to do is measure the range with a ruler, do your 3min 15 secs thing and make a note of the course the ship is on. The data is all just right there on the map! Do you see where I'm coming from here? I feel like I must be misisng something :hmmm:

Isn't the point of it that you wouldn't be able to do it like that? Hence why the manual takes you through visual acquisition of data by use of the periscope and datapad? Don't get me wrong, I sure don't want to offend anyone by implying it's a 'soft' way of playing and reading the forums I find the level of knowledge, depth and harcore commitment to the details by all you guys absolutely astounding. I'm just genuinely curious why this seems to be played this way? And does anyone play with pure visual only data collection? Or is it that, as I suspect, I'm just missing something here?

Ok, with that out of the way, the rest are quick...

2. I've been setting the torpedo computer manually (which has a lovely authentic feel to it) and then putting it back on automatic when I'm done but I've never seen it update anything automatically after that, i.e. I set everything up at say 5000 meters to target, set it on auto, close to 2000 to fire but the computer still says 5000. Is there something else I need to do here?

3. Can someone please clarify if the units used are all meters and kilometers? I was assuming the ruler was telling me nautical miles but then noticed the range dial on the torpedo computer says 'hm' on it, which I assume is 'hundred meters'. Does that mean the ruler is telling me kilometers? (And if so, did they really use kms in the 40s?). If speed is in knots, it just seems weird to me to mix it all up like that.

4. I have installed the game from Steam. I tried putting GWX Gold over my installation last night but then it failed to run (said 'Failed to start game, the app is already running). Is this a known issue with an easy fix? I couldn't find a solution.

Ok, that's it. Just wanna say that I think the amount and quality of work that all you guys put into the mods for these games is just phenomenal and I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it before. Well done!

I was actually watching a documentary (one of the Ted Talks on Netflix) the other day about how in computer games, we as people have a natural tendency to work together and work hard with excellent organisation and co-operation between all ranges of social groups. Yet in the real world, we are considerably less effective at this. It's a good watch and an intersting final thought I think.

[palatum]

I'll try to answer 2/4 :)



2. I've been setting the torpedo computer manually (which has a lovely authentic feel to it) and then putting it back on automatic when I'm done but I've never seen it update anything automatically after that, i.e. I set everything up at say 5000 meters to target, set it on auto, close to 2000 to fire but the computer still says 5000. Is there something else I need to do here?

I assume you mean the red/green button. It doesn't update the range settings, it just updates the gyro angle relative to your scope/UZO heading based on your manual settings.


3. Can someone please clarify if the units used are all meters and kilometers? I was assuming the ruler was telling me nautical miles but then noticed the range dial on the torpedo computer says 'hm' on it, which I assume is 'hundred meters'. Does that mean the ruler is telling me kilometers? (And if so, did they really use kms in the 40s?). If speed is in knots, it just seems weird to me to mix it all up like that.

I think all units on the map are given in meters/km. I don't know if this is what they used in Kriegsmarine in the 40s. I agree it sounds strange, given then nautical term is nautical mile

Palatum

[palatum]

Oh, and Welcome!! :D

[Gustav Schiebert]

Welcome as well!

Ah, I was like you once. About two weeks ago. I had exactly the same problems and didn't want to resort to 'God mode' map updates.

This is the mod for you:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147667

Troublous Haze pointed that in my direction. It's whole mod (plus a complete 20 min video tutorial) on manual targeting, where you gather range, aob, speed etc all from the scope. Also fixes the TDC so you can input the data and it will update properly. Sunk 200,000 (full realism) tonnes with that, with about a 50% hit rate - a very realistic mod. Well worth a look.

As for units, you're right in that the TDC is in 100s of metres (or hectometres). The KM used nautical miles for navigation, as nms are linked closely to knots (1nm/hr). Metres (and kilometers/hectometers) were used for ranging, attack, gunnery, depth and torpedo purposes.

[palatum]

I agree with you on that God's eye mode feels like cheating, basically all you are left with is determining speed (which isn't that hard), and getting yourself in the right position (based on the target's course).
I have tried to play with no god's eye mode. It works well against single targets, but against a convoy... :wah:

The trick is to gather information over time, and many times, to ensure that your target data are correct (speed, heading).

I find that the data gathering (distance and Course/AoB) is the tricky part...

-Palatum

[HW3]

Welcome aboard Spirit X!

:salute:

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Welcome aboard Commander.

[Gerald]

:sunny:

[u crank]

Welcome to SUBSIM Spirit X.

[Jimbuna]

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

[Randomizer]

1.So the main thing I don't realy get is that in all the tutorials and stuff I've been reading on effective TMA (such as this excellent walkthrough for target interception and engagement: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961), I see everyone working out the anlges, speeds and ranges using the Nav Map. But how do you get them to show on the Nav Map? The only way I have found is to turn on the 'God's Eye View' option which seems like totally cheating.
The only "right" way to play any of the SH series is whatever way works for you. You consider Map Updates on to be cheating (whatever that means), try using a snorkel boat in 1944-45 without that option and your career will be very short and end violently. Guaranteed. It is a functional limitation of the way the game is designed. So try Map Contacts off and a patrol in the Irish Sea in the winter of '1944-45 and see how you make out.

Just sayin'.

[Pisces]

@ Spirit X:

I'm not totally sure I understand your point. But I'll try to reply anyway to explain what you might be missing.

1: What you might be missing with the stock game, with regard to the Nav-map and targeting, is the cursor tool when drawing lines. (see 2nd and 3rd image in the Hunt tutorial.) Or a big plotting grid image replacing your Uboat icon on the map. (see this video tutorial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNjp6Jt-OQw)) I think these things weren't part of stock SH3. But they are very helpfull tools. Almost indispensible,... but I'm a mapdrawing-nerd. So I created this little mod (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3704) to be able to point lines, waypoint legs, circle radi, and protractor legs in whichever compass-direction I want. I never used the big Uboat Icond replacing plotting grid as it was a major toll on my first computer. But I'm sure some versions of it are also in the Subsim Downloads section (like this (http://www.subsim.com/subsim_files/patches05/bearings.zip), but it is old, and not completely JSGME-ready)

The manual and video tutorial in the academy teach you to use the Notemap targeting procedure. But luckily, you are not forced to do it that way. As this way, the important value that is needed for getting the torpedo on target (speed) is based on possibly inaccurate measurements (range) and guesstimations (AOB). Above all the fact that it needs the scope to be locked onto the target to get it right. There was no such things at the time, as an auto-locked periscope following the target.

One way is plotting the target's position on the map across a certain amount of time. For that you need range and bearings from the periscope, or from the Watch Officer (if he is up-top on the bridge). The bearings these provide are relative bearings though, measured from the bow and increasing to the right. To be able to plot them on the map you either locate the point inside the Uboat icon plotting grid. Or you first have to convert it to true bearing compass directions, before you plot this on the map (with i.e. my tools) from your current location. Like in The Hunt. The problem with this method is that you should do this while you are at a safe distance from the target. You do not want to be seen. As then they might fight back, or they start weaving their course. (But that won't help them much in the long run) If you have 2 or more plot points, spaced far enough apart in time and space, then you can measure the distance between them and calculate speed.

Another method to figure speed relies on knowing the length of a ship. So you need a pretty good ID. Or atleast so you don't have to choose between a short trawler and a large tanker. Using your Uboat's course and periscope you create an imaginary wall in the water, through which the target passes. You set this up by turning your bow or stern ('your butt') just infront of the target bow as it moves forward. You also set the periscope to 0 or 180 to look at it with it's vertical line: the imaginary wall. Make sure you have stopped turning before he passes the line with his bow. Now, no matter what your forward (or backward) speed is, as long as you are not turning, the target allways needs the same amount of time to drag itself through that 'wall'. You can do this from pretty much any angle, as long as you have a good view on it's bow and stern. If either is kept hidding behind structures then you have to guess the exact beginning or ending moment. You measure the time it takes it to does so, with for example the ingame stopwatch. Then divide the length of the target by the time, to get speed in meters per second. And then times 2, (as that is close enough for government work) gets you the speed in knots.

Figuring out the target course, or AOB when you look at it, can also be done by guesstimating. It's a fine art. Do-able, but it takes time, effort and opportunity to learn. And that ofcourse, needs being able to know the correct value to check it. They probably spend alot of time on this in the real world. So I guess it is the right way to do it. But I learned of another way.


I initially made this (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147719) (well, I made the wheel, not the invention of the method) to be used to 'calculate' course based on 3 (crude) hydrophone bearings. It can be used with periscope bearings also, which are no doubt even more accurate. Well assuming your course is steady enough. Basically, you need to be stopped, or very slow. And take 3 bearings separated by 2 equal time periods. Then as you align the bearing differences up, the AOB at the 1st bearing shows up in the window. But this requires a significant amount of time between bearing to be realy usefull. The bearings slowly accellerate and slow down again as the target approaches and passes. This shows itself in a small divergence between 2 bearing differences. If the target is far away, this might require in the order of hours. But since you may not have visual contact, this is the only way to be able to tell where distant unseen contacts are going to. It's a way,... better than nothing imho.

There are also graphical methods that can be done on the map to do this. Search for 3 bearing, or 4 bearing hydrophone methods (which provides crude speed and distance also after you sprint away from your 3-bearing location). Like from a users named Nefelodam, Kuikueg or Mittelwaechter.

[Gargamel]

as to steam, you need to point the GWX installer towards the correct folder where steam installed SH3. Then it should work.

[Spirit X]

Thanks for the warm welcome chaps. Well, I assume we're at least mostly chaps.

Palatum - Thanks for the info. Now I understand that I need to set the range to what it will be when I actually fire the torpedos.

Gustav - Once I'm comfortable with all the trig using God mode, I may well check that mod out, thanks.

Gargamel - I did install it in the right place. GWX actually installed fine as far as I could tell. Steam just gave me that error when I tried to play the game after the GWX install. I assume that if you don't put it in the right place, it wouldn't install anyway?

I'd be a lot happier if I could roll back GWX should it fail again. Is there anyway it can be installed via JSGME?

Randomizer - I see your point. I guess that one 'unrealistic' aspect of game that must be balanced out is the fact the the captain of the boat wouldn't have actually been doing all this stuff single handed. I'm happy with God mode for now at least, while I'm learning the ropes.

Pisces - Thanks for taking the time to reply in such depth. I'm finding that, with the extra bits you get from having the question mark ticked, I generally have what I need to do the trig and stuff (although I am using God's Eye View for now). May well check out some of those tools, although I'm not sure I wanna mess with anything that isn't JSGME ready, I'm only about 60% techie and the sheer volume of mods for this game is rather intimidating.

I've been through the visual method using the datapad a few times. It went ok but at night I just couldn't see a damn thing, even up close. Maybe I should just adjust my screen a little. Good idea about using the Watch Officer, didn't realise that option was there until you mentioned it. Think I'll try an attack or two using him with God mode off and see how it goes. Although, how does he know the range anyway if I haven't worked it out yet?

The vertical wall idea, using the length of the ship is excellent, thanks. Will definitely add that to my repertoire.

At the moment, my main method of attack has been to run off to where my target will be in ten minutes or so and set myself up stationary, abeam of his course. Then just wait for him to pass my 000. Have also tried firing a spread at a convoy at a slightly oblique AOB, like 80 degrees, and that worked a treat taking out two ships. I saw it in a youtube vid linked from a post.

It seems a bit silly but I think the most irksome aspect of my attacks thus far has been the fact that I have to work out my own course. I guess I just assumed that I would always have that figure on screen somewhere. I've gotten into the habit of making sure I memorise what the helmsman says whenever I make a turn now. Also, I do wish the stopwatch also appeared on the nav map screen, but I could always just use my own so small issue really.

Oh and does anyone know if there's a mod that allows you to add notes to a map mark? I often want to time-stamp them when I intend suspending a hunt to recharge batteries, so that I can re-intercept when I'm done.

[Pisces]

That mod replacing the Uboar icon with a targeting grid is in a sence JSGME ready. You need to place the folders named by the darkness level in the MODS folder. And enable one of those. All the other stuf should not be extracted into there.

The Watch Officer has bionic eyes. To bad he's such a lazy ass to get up there that you have to beat him with a stick to do it.

Your own course readout is in the game, but it is so tiny that it is barely usable without modding. People have made bigger dials for depth, speed, rudder setting and so on. But modding it into your game can be a bit tricky, as it might conflict with other mods changing the menu_1024_768.ini file.

Map marks cannot be changed ingame. You need to text-edit the .map file of your savegame (in My Documents\SH3\data\cfg\Careers\%Commandersname%\%P atrolnumber%), and then reload the savegame.

[Randomizer]

One of the things about the German Navy chain of command in a U-Boat is that the 1st Watch Officer conducted all surface attacks. So, technically any surface attack that does not use the in-game Watch Officer assist for surface attacks is "unrealistic".

There are Mods out there that have a negative effect on the 1WO in-game ability to accurately determine firing data. These mitigate to a great extent the perceived "cheating" factor involved in using the game option to use accurate game-provided firing data.

Historically the U-Boat captain was never alone and he had a trained staff to assist him in plotting targeting solutions, navigation and threat identification. However, some so-called "purest's" believe that turning off player options like disabling Map Updates or Weapons Officer Assistance is somehow realistic. Given the distribution of the tactical and command workload in the Gernam navy at the time the opposite is probably more accurate.

There is no absolute solution, whatever works for you, the player is whatever is "right".

Good Hunting regardless of how you decide to proceed.

[Gustav Schiebert]

Thanks for the warm welcome chaps. Well, I assume we're at least mostly chaps.

I'm entirely a chap. But you're welcome :D Good hunting, Herr Kaleun!