And the shootings continue.... [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

August

12-15-12, 07:46 PM

I am telling you things have gone too far all this is going to effect the gun laws in the US enough people are going to get feed up.I read a report that there has been a massive spike in donations to anti gun and anti gun violence groups they usually see a spike after an incident but never on the scale seen now. The NRA is a massive lobby which is how it gets what it wants if the anti gun lobbies get enough money they will have much more clout.

Just remember that the NRA is "massive" because it has a massive number of supporters. Politicians aren't scared by money. The Democrats spend far more money these days than anyone so they can hardly claim that enemy politicians are "bought" by the NRA without admitting they're just as bought by the anti-gunners.

What they are scared of is the loss of votes that support of anti-gun legislation will bring and that you can't legislate your way around.

If the Democrats are truly interested in preventing future such tragedies then they should be figuring out why our society is creating these monsters. Guns did not make this maniac, society did, WE did. WE had better figure out how to stop it or regardless of what ever laws we pass we will continue to see more of these tragedies.

Oberon

12-15-12, 07:51 PM

The date might not be helping...

August

12-15-12, 07:54 PM

The date might not be helping...

You mean like because the world is supposed to end in a few days anyways so why not spend it creating mayhem?

eddie

12-15-12, 07:54 PM

Well August, we better figure it out quick, because they just arrested this kid in Oklahoma for plotting an attack on a high school. These people are coming out of the woodwork!

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/15/15932019-oklahoma-student-arrested-in-alleged-plot-to-attack-school?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=4

Stealhead

12-15-12, 08:01 PM

All it takes is one incident that is bad enough Australasia once had gun laws very similar to the US and one incident was all it took to get enough people in support of a drastic change in the gun laws in that country.

The NRA does have a lot of members I am aware of this but I highly doubt there anywhere near as many staunch anti-gun group members as there are in the NRA alot of people are middle ground about firearms in the US and events like these may make them decide to take action.

That is not necessarily the best answer but that is how people tend to react to things.Society does not necessarily create an ill person they can be born that way and no matter what they experience they might do something extremely violent there is really not very much that can be done about that but people will want to do something about it find something to blame some sort of fix even if it does not solve the problem.Spree killers mass murders "running amok" is nothing new it has happened since the dawn of our existence no matter the society good or bad it happens it cant really be avoided.

Tribesman

12-15-12, 08:06 PM

Just remember that the NRA is "massive" because it has a massive number of supporters.
If it has such massive support why were so many of the candidates it endorsed in the elections kicked into touch?
Face it the NRA contains too many nuts and gets driven by the extremists just like the anti gun nuts do, even Bush resigned his NRA membership despite La Pierre apologising for the organisation calling the US government nazi thugs.

Armistead

12-15-12, 08:20 PM

Just remember that the NRA is "massive" because it has a massive number of supporters. Politicians aren't scared by money. The Democrats spend far more money these days than anyone so they can hardly claim that enemy politicians are "bought" by the NRA without admitting they're just as bought by the anti-gunners.

What they are scared of is the loss of votes that support of anti-gun legislation will bring and that you can't legislate your way around.

If the Democrats are truly interested in preventing future such tragedies then they should be figuring out why our society is creating these monsters. Guns did not make this maniac, society did, WE did. WE had better figure out how to stop it or regardless of what ever laws we pass we will continue to see more of these tragedies.

We live in a violent culture today. I think Hollywood has more impact than guns. The average kid watches 1000's of brutal murders every year on TV. Don't get me wrong, I like my action flicks, but I also grew up in the period where being the good guy was the thing to do. Hollywood once promoted a clear good vs. bad image. I see a lot of liberal actors promoting gun control, then they make the most violent movies with guns, lil hypocritical to me.

People are talking get rid of guns, but watch gun sales increase 1000% over the next few months.

Takeda Shingen

12-15-12, 08:52 PM

Don't get me wrong, I like my action flicks, but I also grew up in the period where being the good guy was the thing to do.

Yeah, and Matt Dillon solved most of his problems with guns. The Cartwright boys did their fair share of gun play too. There was the Lone Ranger firing his Peacemaker from horseback at the start of every episode. And, of course there were The Rifleman, for whom use of the ubiquitous rifle was the solution to every problem, and Combat! that featured lots and lots of, well, combat. The list goes on.

Frankly, television is no more violent than it was in the past. All that has changed is the amount realism show as the aftermath of violence.

Armistead

12-15-12, 09:05 PM

Yeah, and Matt Dillon solved most of his problems with guns. The Cartwright boys did their fair share of gun play too. There was the Lone Ranger firing his Peacemaker from horseback at the start of every episode. And, of course there were The Rifleman, for whom use of the ubiquitous rifle was the solution to every problem, and Combat! that featured lots and lots of, well, combat. The list goes on.

Frankly, television is no more violent than it was in the past. All that has changed is the amount realism show as the aftermath of violence.

Yea, but the story line was good vs. bad, the white hat vs the black hat, and good won. Today the villian is admired, the violence is bloody gore, not cowboys shooting cap guns at each other.

Biggles

12-15-12, 09:07 PM

These kind of things often happens. One event triggers or encourages another.

Same goes for suicides. In the Stockholm subway, there's now and then a poor bugger who decides to end it all and jump in front of a train. When it happens, it obviously causes stops in the traffic, but the real reason is never given. It's always just "technical problems" or something alike. It's psychological. One does it, and others think "heck, why not?"

I personally think the American society is way too relaxed about weapons, but then I'm from Sweden where it's very rare to own one, so I guess I'm not what one would call a "neutral" speaker.

Takeda Shingen

12-15-12, 09:15 PM

Yea, but the story line was good vs. bad, the white hat vs the black hat, and good won.

The message was still the same. Somebody wrongs somebody, you shoot 'em dead.

Today the villian is admired, the violence is bloody gore, not cowboys shooting cap guns at each other.

I think you'd be hard pressed to say that these cop shows admire the victims. Also the increased gore, to me, is a sign of the consequences of such violence, as contrasted with the clean action of those westerns. There, all you do is pull the trigger and the problems goes away all neat and tidy without any mess or consequence.

Onkel Neal

12-15-12, 09:17 PM

I dunno, but the crazy has been world wide for some time. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1985834,00.html) :-? And on and on (http://newsone.com/2103827/min-yingjun-chinese-school-stabbing/), so sad.

And on.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre)

And wow, do you remember this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daegu_subway_fire)
The Daegu subway fire was a mass murder on February 18, 2003 which killed at least 198 people and injured at least 147. An arsonist set fire to a train stopped at the Jungangno Station of the Daegu Metropolitan Subway in Daegu, South Korea. The fire then spread to a second train which had entered the station from the opposite direction a few minutes later.

August

12-15-12, 09:20 PM

We live in a violent culture today. I think Hollywood has more impact than guns. The average kid watches 1000's of brutal murders every year on TV. Don't get me wrong, I like my action flicks, but I also grew up in the period where being the good guy was the thing to do. Hollywood once promoted a clear good vs. bad image. I see a lot of liberal actors promoting gun control, then they make the most violent movies with guns, lil hypocritical to me.

People are talking get rid of guns, but watch gun sales increase 1000% over the next few months.

I agree. We bathe our children in virtual blood and 3d destruction their entire lives then argue that violent movies and video games play no part when they dress up like their online avatars and act out what they grew up pretending to be.

But it's not just that. We belittle and destroy our religious institutions and claim it's for equality, leaving people without a moral code or compass to follow just because some think a community should have no need for such quaint traditions. Maybe if this monster believed in a hell he wouldn't have been so eager to send himself there. We don't even know our neighbors anymore. In too many cases we couldn't tell if the folks next door were cannibals let alone sane humans. We coddle and over shelter our children, never allowing to them to burn their fingers, or loose a softball game, or learn a lesson the hard way, making them so emotionally weak that they'll commit suicide over a mocking twitter message, or it seems walk into an elementary school and open fire.

We have to start growing people with a skin. We also have to stop creating in our children such a driving desire for fame and recognition that infamy becomes an acceptable alternative if it gets them remembered.

Biggles

12-15-12, 09:28 PM

I don't think it's entirely accurate to claim that a lack of religious affiliation is the cause of horrendous acts such as these, or that a religious lifestyle would prevent it. Anders Behring Breivik was apparently deeply religious, and killed 77 innocent Norwegians last year.

Nutheads exists in all forms and places. Personally, I'd say you'd make it harder for them to do things like these if you made it harder for them to get guns. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" Yeah, well, I think the guns help, as Eddie Izzard put it.

August

12-15-12, 09:36 PM

The message was still the same. Somebody wrongs somebody, you shoot 'em dead.

That's an oversimplification. The message was that evil exists in the world and it must be fought. How many of those old time cop shows and westerns had the townspeople banding together to help the heroes fight off the bad guys? That's a far far different message than the one a kid gets spending all afternoon running down hookers in GTA with extra blood graphics mods turned on.

Also the increased gore, to me, is a sign of the consequences of such violence, as contrasted with the clean action of those westerns. There, all you do is pull the trigger and the problems goes away all neat and tidy without any mess or consequence.On the other hand it removes the huge shock that seeing it in real life would produce. Todays killers are not going to be shocked by gore because they have been trained to expect to see it.

Onkel Neal

12-15-12, 09:36 PM

Yeah, I see your point, Biggles, religious people can go crazy too. Point in case, Muslim extremists. August makes a good argument too. I agree, our society has changed a lot from the 1950s, and it's not all good.

I am a guy who like to shoot a gun once in a while, and I don't like the idea of giving up my constitutional rights to own a weapon and protect myself and family. But if there was a magic button that would make all guns go away, I would be interested in talking about it. In reality, no matter how strict the gun law, some people, usually criminals, would get them. They aren't going to disappear.

Last week a crazy SOB killed 27 people with a couple of handguns. The same week, 140 million gun owners did not kill any school kids.

Check out the links I posted, you can kill people without a handgun.

I think all campuses need to have an armed security guard, and the principals should also have an emergency weapon available.

Takeda Shingen

12-15-12, 09:36 PM

Onkel Neal

12-15-12, 09:44 PM

You know,
if you'd have told me 20 years ago.

I'd see children walking
the streets of our Texas towns.

...with green hair, bones in their noses...

I just flat-out
wouldn't have believed you.

Signs and wonders.

But I think once you quit hearing "sir"
and "ma'am," the rest is soon to foller.

Takeda Shingen

12-15-12, 09:47 PM

That's an oversimplification. The message was that evil exists in the world and it must be fought. How many of those old time cop shows and westerns had the townspeople banding together to help the heroes fight off the bad guys? That's a far far different message than the one a kid gets spending all afternoon running down hookers in GTA with extra blood graphics mods turned on.

Now we're talking about different things. My argument was in reference to Armistead's comparison of television to television. The townspeople did certainly band together, and they banded together to shoot the problem dead. The solution was person-to-person violence. This wasn't the Beaver receiving sage advice from Dad. This was 'guns make your problems go away'. And it was always neat and bloodless.

Now, I will give you the GTA comment in reference to video games. Television is a passive medium. Once it becomes interactive, the revenge fantasy takes a huge leap forward in becoming reality. As such, video games are indeed vastly more dangerous than television.

On the other hand it removes the huge shock that seeing it in real life would produce. Todays killers are not going to be shocked by gore because they have been trained to expect to see it.

Yes, but that shock would only occur once the act was committed. I would argue that being unaware of the consequences only makes one more likely to engage in the act.

Armistead

12-15-12, 09:55 PM

I agree. We bathe our children in virtual blood and 3d destruction their entire lives then argue that violent movies and video games play no part when they dress up like their online avatars and act out what they grew up pretending to be.

But it's not just that. We belittle and destroy our religious institutions and claim it's for equality, leaving people without a moral code or compass to follow just because some think a community should have no need for such quaint traditions. Maybe if this monster believed in a hell he wouldn't have been so eager to send himself there. We don't even know our neighbors anymore. In too many cases we couldn't tell if the folks next door were cannibals let alone sane humans. We coddle and over shelter our children, never allowing to them to burn their fingers, or loose a softball game, or learn a lesson the hard way, making them so emotionally weak that they'll commit suicide over a mocking twitter message, or it seems walk into an elementary school and open fire.

We have to start growing people with a skin. We also have to stop creating in our children such a driving desire for fame and recognition that infamy becomes an acceptable alternative if it gets them remembered.

Agreed, as do the majority of Psychologist. I think another dangerous issue is our kids are being over diagnosed with mental illnesses and placed on drugs at young ages. Read somewhere over 40% of kids take some type of drug before they reach puberty for ADD and a host of other issues. We hardly know the long term effects. Most of these issues could be addressed with some good exercise and less sugar.

August

12-15-12, 10:10 PM

Yes, but that shock would only occur once the act was committed. I would argue that being unaware of the consequences only makes one more likely to engage in the act.

This is also where we differ on subject matter. In those old westerns there were always consequences. Not necessarily in blood but every killer in those old movies got his just deserts in the end.

You can't deny that the sight of large amounts of blood and gore is a shock to anyone that beholds it unexpectedly. It can and has shocked people into immobility. The military has long understood this effect which is what "blooding the troops" is all about.

But today such scenes regardless of scale and degree should be of no surprise to anyone who has played a first person shooter or watched an R rated movie let alone years of them. I can think of no better way to prepare a mass murderer to carry out his crimes than this. I mean with todays graphics and sound all one is missing is the smell.

CaptainMattJ.

12-15-12, 10:12 PM

No, violent video games are hardly the "problem". A normal kid who plays something like call of duty doesn't go out and disassociate the horrible feelings from what it really means to kill someone, to take someone's life from them. There's clearly WAY more going on then "let's blame it on violent video games". If your child can't identify with what it means to live, and therefore what it means to take away life, then you have a messed up child who needs help.The millions of gamers who play these games aren't going to go out and murder a bunch of people because they did it in a virtual, hypothetical, detached game unless they have serious issues. You know the MASSIVE majority of troops deployed now that are coming back with PTSD have seen Those same R-rated gore flicks or played those violent games. According to what you are saying that soldier shuld be relatively immune. Incorrect in every sense. Most everyone, including today's youth, would be utterly horrified, disgusted, and mentally scarred by real scenes of gore and death. Your assumptions are wrong. I've played those same game and watched those same movies yet get just the same disgust and shock at real pictures of death, and even stories of mass murder such as this. It's revolting.

It's obvious that the kids who do these things are not mentally well. It's also obvious that those around him either neglected the sings and didn't get him the help he most definitely needed.

Not to mention that that whole absurd religious "moral compass" has been the same "moral compass" that have been the basis for some of the most psychotic mass murderes in history, all killing in the name of religion. This false moral compass has done way more harm than good. If you need to follow some religion to get your morals then you aren't really a moral person. You should have those morals because you are a decent human being and not because some religion tells you to. What an absurd argument.

August

12-15-12, 10:15 PM

Besides by act you're talking about the first act. Mass murderers by definition commit many of them. Shock at the sight of gore might not stop the first murder but it just might stop the second one and the ones after that or at least give some more time to escape while the killer adjusts to the sight of what he's caused.

Takeda Shingen

12-15-12, 10:23 PM

No, violent video games are hardly the "problem". A normal kid who plays something like call of duty doesn't go out and disassociate the horrible feelings from what it really means to kill someone, to take someone's life from them. There's clearly WAY more going on then "let's blame it on violent video games". If your child can't identify with what it means to live, and therefore what it means to take away life, then you have a messed up child who needs help.The millions of gamers who play these games aren't going to go out and murder a bunch of people because they did it in a virtual, hypothetical, detached game unless they have serious issues. You know the MASSIVE majority of troops deployed now that are coming back with PTSD have seen Those same R-rated gore flicks or played those violent games. According to what you are saying that soldier shuld be relatively immune. Incorrect in every sense. Most everyone, including today's youth, would be utterly horrified, disgusted, and mentally scarred by real scenes of gore and death. Your assumptions are wrong. I've played those same game and watched those same movies yet get just the same disgust and shock at real pictures of death, and even stories of mass murder such as this. It's revolting.

[The massacre will be] "like playing Doom", and "it'll be like the LA riots, the Oklahoma bombing, WWII, Vietnam, Duke Nukem and Doom all mixed together" -- Eric Harris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_(video_game)#Controversies

August

12-15-12, 10:24 PM

AVGWarhawk

12-15-12, 10:41 PM

I think we are seeing a "who can top this" mentality. It has little to do with gun control. We had less laws for guns years ago. What did we see? Manson killings. A man in a tower at TX university taking out students. Today there are more laws and we have kids trying to "top this" at the expense of peoples lives. Gun control only takes guns out of law abiding citizens hands. The criminals will still have them. The lunatics will find ways to obtain one so they can "top this."

Armistead

12-15-12, 10:42 PM

I think it's more of an issue is that we've created the perfect storm culturally for these events to happen. It's more than school shootings, it's an every day life of violence. On one hand we baby our kids, they're spoiled, feel entitled, everyone gets a prize, they're no more good losers. At the same time, their worlds are filled with mass gore, violence, cheap sex, etc....

My wife's sister teaches 2nd grade and says 1 in 3 of her kids are on some type of drug for depression or ADD. I admit she's in a tough school district, but still....It's just too common for a school to complain of a child being hyper, parent goes to Doctor and the child is placed on meds. When we were young, we played outside, came in worn out at dark, in bed by 9 or 10.

It seems today parents are taught to respect their kids, instead of the other way around.

AVGWarhawk

12-15-12, 10:47 PM

I would say kids are desensitized today because of the media. I'll probably be blasted for the comment but this is how I see it.

CaptainMattJ.

12-15-12, 10:48 PM

Well apparently some people are affected by virtual violence or at least trained to commit it and if it saves even one life to ban video games then I say far better that than give up our right to keep and bear arms.
People who are already psychos in the first place, maybe.

So we should ban ALL violent video games (including silent hunter, in case you forgot the hundreds of sailors you most likely just killed brutally by firing a torpedo into that ship) because psychos happened to play them, but not the things designed purely to kill other people.

Going shooting and being trained to kill with firearms (as demostrated by lee harvey oswald) could be a HUGE factor in a psycho's decision to kill masses of people. I honestely don't see your reasoning. The gore displayed is pixels and completely hypothetical. any NORMAL HUMAN BEING would be able to make that connection, that this is all not real and that the jump to doing this in reality takes the mind of a psychopath that already has serious issues.

How about the people around the person acknowledge the person's issues and gets him help. I can, as someone who was in high school not too long ago, i can vouch for just how "desensitized" kids are today. When one of our classmates died of cancer, the whole COMMUNITY reacted. Everybody weeped for him. Everybody i came in contact with were so deeply struck by our classmate's death. A massive candlelight vigil and a heartwarming speech made by his friends, even some by those who barely knew him, payed their utmost respect and it was horribly saddening. This was someone who died of cancer. I haven't met ANYBODY, not in my 2500 student high school, not at any college, not be physically taken aback by being confronted with death, the death of anyone close. And i don't know anyone who isn't made violently ill by seeing anyone physically maimed or bloody. This one kid did something incredibly stupid (i never found out exactly what he did), but he was bleeding pretty badly. All of the students who saw him bloodied like that were agape and some were nearly hurling. These same students were the ones that were always talking about going over to people's houses to play Zombies or watch some violent flick. No normal kid isn't affected heavily by scenes of actual gore or violence. The only thing that is desensitized are fist fights, but this has been true for a long time. Death, near death, serious injury, and gore, is still very much a horrible sight for everyone i've met. And i've met alot of teens.

Again, the kids who do these things have some SERIOUS mental instability. They should be the focus.

It's a generally baseless assumption that kids are disassociating real life gore with fake pixelated gore and the thing it represents. There are still many kids that cant even handle fake gore, and there are some movies that i can't stomach either. Besides, most of those horror flicks are stupid anyway, the hack and slashers, with a ridiculous story line and piss poor acting.

AVGWarhawk

12-15-12, 10:55 PM

People who are already psychos in the first place, maybe.

So we should ban ALL violent video games (including silent hunter, in case you forgot the hundreds of sailors you most likely just killed brutally by firing a torpedo into that ship) because psychos happened to play them, but not the things designed purely to kill other people.

Going shooting and being trained to kill with firearms (as demostrated by lee harvey oswald) could be a HUGE factor in a psycho's decision to kill masses of people. I honestely don't see your reasoning. The gore displayed is pixels and completely hypothetical. any NORMAL HUMAN BEING would be able to make that connection, that this is all not real and that the jump to doing this in reality takes the mind of a psychopath that already has serious issues.

How about the people around the person acknowledge the person's issues and gets him help.

Unfortunately there are not normal people and a violent game becomes the enabler. They don't see it as hypothetical. So now people around this possible psycho should get him help? People go to schools for years trying to understand the human behaviors. Now you suggest honey boo boo should be able to recognise a potential lunatic and suggest they get help?

August

12-15-12, 11:36 PM

People who are already psychos in the first place, maybe.

So we should ban ALL violent video games (including silent hunter, in case you forgot the hundreds of sailors you most likely just killed brutally by firing a torpedo into that ship) because psychos happened to play them, but not the things designed purely to kill other people.

Going shooting and being trained to kill with firearms (as demostrated by lee harvey oswald) could be a HUGE factor in a psycho's decision to kill masses of people. I honestely don't see your reasoning. The gore displayed is pixels and completely hypothetical. any NORMAL HUMAN BEING would be able to make that connection, that this is all not real and that the jump to doing this in reality takes the mind of a psychopath that already has serious issues.

I would argue that it's pervasiveness virtually ensures that anyone who would be affected by it will not be able to escape it. And yes i'd ban video games, ipods, shoot em up movies and any other time waster in a New York second if it made it harder for a mass murder to carry out his crimes. We will never need video games like we need the right to defend ourselves.

Besides, you keep talking about "no normal kid" well show me what is normal. Because as far as I can tell there no longer is such a thing as a normal kid. A third of you are on anti-depressants or have ADHD. You're the most heavily medicated generation in history and you call that normal?
I appreciate that your particular community may have shared the loss of one of your classmates but that has nothing to do with preparing mass murderers. An empty chair of one who has died in private in a hospital does not compare with blood stained walls.

Stealhead

12-16-12, 12:25 AM

CaptainMattJ.

12-16-12, 12:34 AM

I would argue that it's pervasiveness virtually ensures that anyone who would be affected by it will not be able to escape it. And yes i'd ban video games, ipods, shoot em up movies and any other time waster in a New York second if it made it harder for a mass murder to carry out his crimes. We will never need video games like we need the right to defend ourselves.

Besides, you keep talking about "no normal kid" well show me what is normal. Because as far as I can tell there no longer is such a thing as a normal kid. A third of you are on anti-depressants or have ADHD. You're the most heavily medicated generation in history and you call that normal?
I appreciate that your particular community may have shared the loss of one of your classmates but that has nothing to do with preparing mass murderers. An empty chair of one who has died in private in a hospital does not compare with blood stained walls.
There is a severe overdiagnosis of ADD and ADHD in this country. Doesn't mean anything. "a third" is completely overexaggerative, it is more like 9% and there's alot of hysteria about it and misdiagnosis in young children.

You'd think taking your son/daughter hunting or shooting would have a much more negative effect than any violent video game but i dont hear you voicing any complaints about that. (im not saying banning guns is the answer either, but your logic doesn't make alot of sense)

The fact that my community shared so much grief over "an empty chair of one who has died" shows that in the event of something like the Connecticut shootings it would be traumatizing in every sense for the students who'd witness their classmates dying or hearing of their murder. If the community showed that much compassion for one person who died of natural causes then imagine the outcome if it was something as horrible as this.They wouldn't be "desensitized" to that scene of indescribable death and fear. That is utterly false. And most of these kids in my community play violent video games, and watch violent movies. None of them share any desire to do what these psychos did.

And AVG, how exactly does the video game become the "enabler"? When has a video game ever pushed someone without issue into someone who desires to murder others? As said before, it doesn't take a violent video game to push a psycho over the edge. The mental instability is caused by so many other factors. Torment, abuse, hatred, these are the things that mold someone into a sociopath. A video game is hardly the root of the problem at all. And in most cases the psychotic behavior isn't terribly hard to recognize nor the environment that could cause it. If your kid is getting excessively harassed, viciously attacked, you need to keep a serious eye on him. If he becomes violent, or does abnormally strange things, keep an eye on him. Some people snap without anyone ever noticing. But alot give off signs or are in that danger zone where they need to be watched a little more carefully.

The conneticut shooter was someone with mild autism, aspergers, and the child of a single mother whos father left him to live in jersey with his brother. That's a dangerous combination. You need to keep your eye on that kid. There's now been 2 cases recently of nutjobs that have been stopped by people who paid attention to someone's behavior and stopped them before they could act.

Armistead

12-16-12, 12:37 AM

Really? Come now your getting a bit carried away here.A third of people in your generation are on anti-depressants just the same and ADD/ADHD does not make people violent I actually have ADD and I choose not to take any medication for it and never did.That does not mean that people who do take medications are violent.

The argument that we should ban anything that might cause a nut case from going off is just nonsense to be honest.What if a nut case gets set of by a person saying hello to them? Should we then ban speaking to each other? What if a nut case hates the color blue? I guess we ban the color blue then.

Glad you can control yours. The problem though is many Doctors are simply not taking the time to properly dx and too many kids are given the drugs because they're misbehaved, hyper, etc... Again, the bigger issue is they have no clue on the long term effects on the youthful growing brain.

Yes, we're a drug culture, because it's very profitable to keep people on drugs, rather than teach them proper coping skills.

The long-term impact of ADD/ADHD medication on the youthful, developing brain is not yet known. Some researchers are concerned that the use of drugs such as Ritalin in children and teens might interfere with normal brain development.

Psychiatric problems — Stimulants for ADD/ADHD can trigger or exacerbate symptoms of hostility, aggression, anxiety, depression, and paranoia. People with a personal or family history of suicide, depression, or bipolar disorder are at a particularly high risk, and should be carefully monitored when taking stimulants.

Potential for abuse — Stimulant abuse is a growing problem, particularly among teens and young adults. College students take them for a boost when cramming for exams or pulling all-nighters. Others abuse stimulant meds for their weight-loss properties. If your child is taking stimulants, make sure he or she isn’t sharing the pills or selling them.

August

12-16-12, 12:39 AM

Armistead

12-16-12, 12:42 AM

I never said they are. He is the one who claimed to speak for millions of "normal" kids. I'm just pointing out that there is no longer such a thing (if there ever was).

Yeah a lot of people in my generation are on drugs too, of course drugs and old people have always gone hand in hand. What's different now is that the younger generation is drugged up now too.

Agreed, but as I said, the effects of these drugs on growing youthful brains is much more dangerous than adults....but we are a drugged nation....big profits....Seems every 5 minutes another "Are you depressed" commercial is on TV, telling you to go to your MD and get meds.

Stealhead

12-16-12, 12:49 AM

I would agree with the whole over diagnosis that is true in a lot of cases for many things.Hell you go to most any doc with pain and they give like 15 different pain killers.

Well I know a lot of people that have ADD a few guys in my unit had it and took
Ritalin.Myself I just found ways to keep myself focused on a task in fact I would argue that I work better than average because I choose not to dilly dally.Though to be honest if the task is something I really dislike the urge not to do it is pretty strong but I will keep working anyway makes me enjoy the free time even more when I am done.

More or less ADD/ADHD people either take the pills or they don't and they work through it.Thing is the way an ADD/ADHD persons neurons fire a stimulant actually slows them down.So kids that do not really have ADD when take Ritalin it is just like speed to them and they get a free high.

Stealhead

12-16-12, 12:54 AM

I never said they are. He is the one who claimed to speak for millions of "normal" kids. I'm just pointing out that there is no longer such a thing (if there ever was).

Yeah a lot of people in my generation are on drugs too, of course drugs and old people have always gone hand in hand. What's different now is that the younger generation is drugged up now too.

Well when it comes to "normal" I can agree with you I do feel that there is still such a thing as a person that has rational control when it comes to extreme actions for lack of a better term .

I don't know what to say about the drugs really we are a drug nation legal or illegal it seems I suppose that can be blamed to some extent on pharmaceutical companies I think they like the idea of a person needing drugs all of their life time and the fact they give many doctor incentives to hand out their drugs certainly does not help.

August

12-16-12, 12:59 AM

You'd think taking your son/daughter hunting or shooting would have a much more negative effect than any violent video game but i dont hear you voicing any complaints about that. (im not saying banning guns is the answer either, but your logic doesn't make alot of sense)

You'd think but which activity is supervised by a caring adult? Which one glorifies and rewards the murder of human beings albeit virtual ones?

The fact that my community shared so much grief over "an empty chair of one who has died" shows that in the event of something like the Connecticut shootings it would be traumatizing in every sense for the students who'd witness their classmates dying or hearing of their murder. If the community showed that much compassion for one person who died of natural causes then imagine the outcome if it was something as horrible as this.

Sorry but I must disagree. Some people have the ability to grieve the death of a stray dog but wouldn't hesitate to butcher an entire village. Again you presume to speak for the inner feelings of an entire community when you really have no basis for it.

They wouldn't be "desensitized" to that scene of indescribable death and fear. That is utterly false. And most of these kids in my community play violent video games, and watch violent movies. None of them share any desire to do what these psychos did.

I wonder how many kids from Sandy Hook would have said the same thing before Friday. I hope you are right but the truth is that no one knows the heart of another.

Stealhead

12-16-12, 01:24 AM

I dont know for sure but I think that the prevalence of violence does desensitize
people to violence in general at least the idea of violance.To be honest until the last 20 years or so there was not much access to such scenes of of graphic violence so you cant really say that it does not have an effect on people.

A friend of mine who is originally from Greece was ata my house a few months back to watch a football game and they had an add for Assassin's Creed 3 and he said "To much violence to be seen for entertainment these days" and to be honest I agree with him.This man is a paramedic and gets to see a lot of real life pain every day some of it the result of violence so I think that he is a pretty good judge.

Task Force

12-16-12, 03:37 AM

Yep, and the sad fact is, in a few weeks these shootings will probably become a foot note for the news... And yet again the cycle of forgetting and doing nothing or very little will restart till the next one...

Ah yes, the cycle of forgetting... what a popular past time in society.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 08:20 AM

And AVG, how exactly does the video game become the "enabler"? When has a video game ever pushed someone without issue into someone who desires to murder others? As said before, it doesn't take a violent video game to push a psycho over the edge. The mental instability is caused by so many other factors. Torment, abuse, hatred, these are the things that mold someone into a sociopath. A video game is hardly the root of the problem at all. And in most cases the psychotic behavior isn't terribly hard to recognize nor the environment that could cause it. If your kid is getting excessively harassed, viciously attacked, you need to keep a serious eye on him. If he becomes violent, or does abnormally strange things, keep an eye on him. Some people snap without anyone ever noticing. But alot give off signs or are in that danger zone where they need to be watched a little more carefully.

The conneticut shooter was someone with mild autism, aspergers, and the child of a single mother whos father left him to live in jersey with his brother. That's a dangerous combination. You need to keep your eye on that kid. There's now been 2 cases recently of nutjobs that have been stopped by people who paid attention to someone's behavior and stopped them before they could act.

Games desensitize. Movies desensitized. Kids are open to suggestion. Kids are open to living a life of fantasy. So are grown adults. Games enable some to live a fantasy. I see it here with the submarine games. Simulation that begins to become real and engrossing. The games are not the sole reason one who can snap finally does. However it can be part of the broader picture.

Your thoughts on the matter suggests to me you do not have children? There are plenty of kids stopped from doing things to others. I would say that more issues arise from kids without problems like autism than kids with. The crime may not be killing folks but there are other crimes as heinous. If not downright diabolical. The only difference here is the sensationalising of it on the news.

the_tyrant

12-16-12, 09:01 AM

We are still not finding the true cause here. After all, blame it on video games, or TV all we want, but that in itself does not cause people to snap and go on the rampage. After all, we are all video game players here, and we probably all watch TV, but none of us are going out to randomly shoot people.

Without knowing the true reasons of events like these, it becomes impossible for us to reduce their occurrences.

PS, big data analytics would help a lot at stopping things like this. I saw a webcast a while back, and it talked about some of the possibilities.

Here is an commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZyU6po_E74

u crank

12-16-12, 09:28 AM

But it's not just that. We belittle and destroy our religious institutions and claim it's for equality, leaving people without a moral code or compass to follow just because some think a community should have no need for such quaint traditions. Maybe if this monster believed in a hell he wouldn't have been so eager to send himself there. We don't even know our neighbors anymore. In too many cases we couldn't tell if the folks next door were cannibals let alone sane humans. We coddle and over shelter our children, never allowing to them to burn their fingers, or loose a softball game, or learn a lesson the hard way, making them so emotionally weak that they'll commit suicide over a mocking twitter message, or it seems walk into an elementary school and open fire.

We have to start growing people with a skin. We also have to stop creating in our children such a driving desire for fame and recognition that infamy becomes an acceptable alternative if it gets them remembered.

I think it's more of an issue is that we've created the perfect storm culturally for these events to happen. It's more than school shootings, it's an every day life of violence. On one hand we baby our kids, they're spoiled, feel entitled, everyone gets a prize, they're no more good losers. At the same time, their worlds are filled with mass gore, violence, cheap sex, etc....
It seems today parents are taught to respect their kids, instead of the other way around.

I couldn't agree more. I belong to the 'Baby Boomer' generation, but it also has another name. The 'Me' generation. A lot of good things came from that era, especially in the civil rights movement. But it wasn't all good. A decline in religious belief and values, acceptance of drug use, and an unbelievable push for consumerism happiness have marked our present lifestyles for the worse. And then there's the whole self-realization and self-fulfillment drive that has had a lasting and for the most part negative affect on society. I can remember when you were not cool unless you were seeing a shrink. And social responsibility be dammed. As long as 'I'm OK'. I read that piece of crap once and it took me a long time to get over it.

I hate to say it, but the long term effects of the 'Me' generation are coming to roost in a big way. Human dysfunction is rampant. To many parents refuse to take responsibility for their children because their parents did not. To many children live in a self centred bubble that they have no grasp of the real world and all its dangers and trials.

I'm not blaming any one person or group because I think there is enough blame to spread around. I've made mistakes.

Guns. Where I live, gun crime is rare and I thank God for that. I don't know anyone who owns a hand gun or an assault rifle. I've never fired one and the last time I fired a rifle it was a single shot .22 and I was a teenager shooting crows on my Uncles farm. But I will tell you with certainty that if the conditions warranted it I would have them and I would know how to use them. And I would make sure my wife and family members did to.

Enough rambling. It's a beautiful Sunday morning here. Fresh fall of snow and clear blue sky. Wife's going to church with her sister. This cranky old guy's gonna listen to some music....Allman Brothers Band maybe...

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 09:46 AM

Games desensitize. Movies desensitized. Kids are open to suggestion. Kids are open to living a life of fantasy. So are grown adults. Games enable some to live a fantasy. I see it here with the submarine games. Simulation that begins to become real and engrossing. The games are not the sole reason one who can snap finally does. However it can be part of the broader picture.

Your thoughts on the matter suggests to me you do not have children? There are plenty of kids stopped from doing things to others. I would say that more issues arise from kids without problems like autism than kids with. The crime may not be killing folks but there are other crimes as heinous. If not downright diabolical. The only difference here is the sensationalising of it on the news.

My response to the fact that "Games and movies desensitize" is, what ever happened to parenting. That is my belief whole heartedly. I grew up in this generation, I watched my fair share of gory movies and played all of the gory games growing up. I was picked on early on in school and even bullied. I have had access to firearms my whole life, yet I did not go and shoot anybody. Why? Because my parents put their foot down and raised me as their CHILD not their FRIEND which seems to be all too common anymore. When I screwed up, I knew it because I got a (pardon my french) ass whooping. I was taught early on that movies and games and books are NOT real life and that real life is played by different rules. In the end, it always comes down to the parenting (Or whoever the guardian figure is).

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 10:04 AM

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 10:09 AM

I agree Casey. However, ass whoopings today get you restraining orders. Parenting today is much different. However, crimes of horrible nature perpetrated by kids happened years ago. The method might have been different but the result the same. Some folks did not carry out the crime until adulthood but found their childhood was a direct contributor to the action. Games, movie and books can provide suggestions and ideas.

BTW, movies today go beyond morbid. In my day Jaws was scary and rated R. Today Jaws would be PG. Today's movies like Saw are beyond twisted.

Well the principle however is we need to get parenting back to where it was, have parents be able to put the fear of God in their children. I messed up something once, then I learned, the belt isnt too kind on the rear :shifty:

I do agree that the movies today and the violence is over the top in everything (along with the glamorization of stars and sex and drugs) but I still think it all comes back to the parents because they are the foundation. If you have a good foundation, you have something sturdy to build on.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 10:13 AM

Absolutely it comes back to parenting. My kids will not see Saw in my house. When they can afford their own place then they can watch Saw. So, again, I agree. Kids need limits. Kids need direction. As you said, be a parent and not a friend. Later on as they age and are on their own the parenting turns more towards a friendship.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 10:19 AM

BTW, movies today go beyond morbid. In my day Jaws was scary and rated R. Today Jaws would be PG. Today's movies like Saw are beyond twisted. If you don't think so then you are desensitized.

Jaws was never rated R. It had a PG rating in 1975, in contrast with the PG-13 rating that is generally assigned today.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 10:34 AM

Jaws was never rated R. It had a PG rating in 1975, in contrast with the PG-13 rating that is generally assigned today.

PG 13 was not available as a rating. R rating may have been to harsh for the movie. It does not belay the fact my folks refused to let me see it. It brings us back to parenting.

12-16-12, 10:35 AM

I don't know what you think is wrong with this generation but remember before you complain about it that those your mostly YOUR KIDS.

Well the principle however is we need to get parenting back to where it was, have parents be able to put the fear of God in their children. I messed up something once, then I learned, the belt isnt too kind on the rear:o

Take it easy with the belt you might get shot.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 10:36 AM

I don't know what you think is wrong with this generation but remember before you complain about it that those your mostly YOUR KIDS.

:o

Take it easy with the belt.

Mine was a wooden spoon or a swift kick to my arse.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 10:44 AM

PG 13 was not available as a rating. R rating may have been to harsh for the movie. It does not belay the fact my folks refused to let me see it. It brings us back to parenting.

But it does kind of throw a wrench into the degradation narrative. I think a lot of these types of comments are simply another case of pining for a idyllic golden age that never existed. Violence permiated media then, just as it does today.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 10:44 AM

Take it easy with the belt.
But the answer is more god guns and domestic abuse.
I think they need to cut down on the exposure to violence and gore, I recon a return to bareknuckle boxing in the town square or maybe some good ol public lynchings with a side order of badgerbaiting and cock fighting should return the kids to more traditional entertainment and give them better traditional values.

Nippelspanner

12-16-12, 11:02 AM

Well the principle however is we need to get parenting back to where it was, have parents be able to put the fear of God in their children. I messed up something once, then I learned, the belt isnt too kind on the rear :shifty:

Wow, facepalm time.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 11:06 AM

I don't know what you think is wrong with this generation but remember before you complain about it that those your mostly YOUR KIDS.

:o

Take it easy with the belt you might get shot.

I don't have kids yet, Im still young (21), Im just saying, when things were gearing toward the softer side of parenting, I got whipped when ever I screwed up (This is on top of reinforcement of things like movies books and games are not real life) and you better believe it took me one time each to learn not to do that again.

Wow, facepalm time.

??

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 11:12 AM

I don't have kids yet, Im still young (21), Im just saying, when things were gearing toward the softer side of parenting, I got whipped when ever I screwed up (This is on top of reinforcement of things like movies books and games are not real life) and you better believe it took me one time each to learn not to do that again.

I am no psychologist, but I'm pretty sure that increased childhood beatings will not reduce the number of adults with mental health issues.

Nippelspanner

12-16-12, 11:15 AM

??

Well, did I miss something, have you been ironic or sarcastic whith this sentence?
"Well the principle however is we need to get parenting back to where it was, have parents be able to put the fear of God in their children. I messed up something once, then I learned, the belt isnt too kind on the rear :shifty:"If not, I don´t really know what to say and all I can do is facepalm because this is so wrong... :nope:

Armistead

12-16-12, 11:31 AM

I am no psychologist, but I'm pretty sure that increased childhood beatings will not reduce the number of adults with mental health issues.

I grew up in the 'beating" generation and I can say I'm sure I got many that I didn't deserve. Certainly what we went through would be considered abuse today. However, I also got a lot of good parenting. I think the key is to set the rules young. Of my children I think I spanked my son once when he was 8. A few times he rode his bike down the drive out into the road without looking, took the bike a few times. Then once in front of me he did it again right in front of a car....He got a spanking to remember....and I never saw him do it again.

I recall once when he was young at the store, some kid was pitching a fit for a toy, screaming, rolling on the floor, why the mother babied him. She finally got him the toy. I looked at my son and said with a stern voice..
"Do you know what I would do to you if you acted like that." He shook his head yes......

Simply, we don't have to beat kids, but we have to show we are boss. My children have never disrespected me.

I do know when I was in school, we had great respect for teachers. Sure, we got in our troubles, but we still respected teachers. We talked back, acted like nuts, we got paddled at school, then often at home again.

I'm sure they're many reasons, but today I see a terrible disrespect for parents and teachers.

It's not so much this is the generation that doesn't spank, it's were the generation that doesn't parent.

Armistead

12-16-12, 11:35 AM

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 11:36 AM

I've just recently argued that teaching is not a respected profession in America, and that the cause is political, not parental in cause. We label schools as 'indocrination centers' and demonize teachers every day. It is no wonder that these attitudes trickle down to America's youth.

Sorry, trying to compare Roy Rogers with Saw just doesn't get it...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068833/

QED

August

12-16-12, 12:30 PM

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068833/

QED

An rather obscure 1972 movie that didn't have nearly the gore or gruesome special effects that modern movies have. But the main issue here is scale. For every Last House on the Left back then you have a dozen far more dark and bloody movies today. Even TV is becoming that way which is far worse imo than any movie because it's so pervasive. Watch a CSI, or Criminal Minds or The Closer and you'll see what I mean.

Besides this isn't a light switch effect here. No single movie is going to turn a "normal" kid into a mass murderer overnight but watching hundreds of such movies and TV shows over an entire lifetime?

Onkel Neal

12-16-12, 12:49 PM

I don't know what you think is wrong with this generation but remember before you complain about it that those your mostly YOUR KIDS.

:o

Take it easy with the belt you might get shot.

Feel free to ask my kids how much foolishness I put up with. I don't want to brag but my kids do not drink smoke and I never hear the F word

CCIP

12-16-12, 12:56 PM

And while we still don't know that much about the shooter, here is another perspective: http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

Everybody says that they could've seen warning signs with these behaviourally-impaired kids, but then what? The fact is that noone's ever had a good solution for them. It's easy to just leave them be, say they are their own or their parents' responsibility, but it really does not address the issue. One of the real problems is the lack of options out there for dealing with kids like these. From Columbine to Virginia Tech to Tucson to Aurora to this latest one, the shooters were known for years to be problematic, behaviourally-impaired or mentally-ill boys. It is telling that the politically-convenient issues of violent entertainment and gun control have been discussed widely every time one of these massacres happened, and yet nobody seemed to broach the issue of dealing with mentally-ill young men in any meaningful way, because nobody has good black-and-white answers to that apparently.

Onkel Neal

12-16-12, 01:17 PM

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 01:17 PM

An rather obscure 1972 movie that didn't have nearly the gore or gruesome special effects that modern movies have. But the main issue here is scale. For every Last House on the Left back then you have a dozen far more dark and bloody movies today. Even TV is becoming that way which is far worse imo than any movie because it's so pervasive. Watch a CSI, or Criminal Minds or The Closer and you'll see what I mean.

Besides this isn't a light switch effect here. No single movie is going to turn a "normal" kid into a mass murderer overnight but watching hundreds of such movies and TV shows over an entire lifetime?

Are you kidding? Last House on the Left is one of the most depraved films that I have ever seen in my life, exceeding anything I've seen in a Saw film and it is hardly obscure, having achieved cult status. In fact, it was put Wes Craven on the map as a horror director.

Let's also not forget Night of the Living Dead (1968), The Omen (1976), The Exorcist (1973), and the Amitiville Horror (1978), all of which were just as gruesome as any modern horror film. Again, this kind of stuff isn't new.

I still maintain that Gunsmoke was every bit as violent as CSI, Law and Order, and the like.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 01:38 PM

But it does kind of throw a wrench into the degradation narrative. I think a lot of these types of comments are simply another case of pining for a idyllic golden age that never existed. Violence permiated media then, just as it does today.

I have not denied it. However, we are experiencing more kids actively involved in multiple killings with weapons. It does not throw a wrench in anything. Citing one movie with incorrect rating does not dispel movies of violent nature can produce desensitized people. It does illustrate parenting as it should be, at least in my case, that viewing such a movie at my age was denied. What we agreed on is parents are perhaps more lax in rules concerning appropriate media for the child's age. My wife and I do not approve certain movies for our teens.

You may stop with the idyllic golden age never existed mumbo jumbo. I did not state the there was an idyllic golden age. You alluded to this in another thread that the good old days were not always so good. Of course they were not good old days. Crimes of today are not much different then. Maybe less of them perhaps but just as violent and bizarre as today's. The good old days to most are thoughts of friends, family and ice cream. People realize social issues existed then as now but the dynamics and how we are fed media has changed. It would seem these days anything goes.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 01:40 PM

eddie

12-16-12, 01:43 PM

Nice to see that the Police are moving quickly these days, concidering what just took place at Newtown. This guy was arrested after threatening to go to a nearby school to shoot as many as he could! Police found 47 guns and ammo at his house!

http://news.msn.com/us/ind-man-with-47-guns-arrested-after-school-threat

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 01:43 PM

Feel free to ask my kids how much foolishness I put up with. I don't want to brag but my kids do not drink smoke and I never hear the F word

Add me to the list. But I will brag. It takes work. I credit my wife for most of it. Brag away Neal.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 01:48 PM

You may stop with the idyllic golden age never existed mumbo jumbo. I did not state the there was an idyllic golden age. You alluded to this in another thread that the good old days were not always so good. Of course they were not good old days. Crimes of today are not much different then. Maybe less of them perhaps but just as violent and bizarre as today's. The good old days to most are thoughts of friends, family and ice cream. People realize social issues existed then as now but the dynamics and how we are fed media has changed. It would seem these days anything goes.

I will stop with the idyliic stuff when you stop talking about it. I mean, my goodness, look at your last two sentences. You didn't even wait a full paragraph to revert to it.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 01:56 PM

Well, did I miss something, have you been ironic or sarcastic whith this sentence?
If not, I don´t really know what to say and all I can do is facepalm because this is so wrong... :nope:

How is it wrong? That when I did things I definately wasn't supposed to my parents put their foot down? Im not saying beat your kid bloody whatever. All Im saying is these kids that they talk about they led up to the shooting because of a bullying or etc, these things could have been prevented by good parents. Looking at what I said I do realize I used the completely wrong analogy. But bottom line, better parenting will reduce this sort of disturbing violence.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 02:00 PM

Feel free to ask my kids how much foolishness I put up with. I don't want to brag but my kids do not drink smoke and I never hear the F word

exactly my point, this kind of parenting equals kids who don't feel like they can walk all over kids at school which means bullying almost goes away, which reduces the need for these kinds of events. Thats where I was going with the belt analogy.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 02:00 PM

I will stop with the idyliic stuff when you stop talking about it. I mean, my goodness, look at your last two sentences. You didn't even wait a full paragraph to revert to it.

Again, people talk about the good old days concerning fond memories and experiences. You point out the good old days where not always so good. But that is besides the point, media was not as direct as it is today. People read papers and news on TV did not have full on graphics or interview a 8 year old directly after surviving a multiple killing not but ten feet from him. This is the difference Tak. Its a free for all to get a rating. Its a free for all to get a box office blow out no matter what it takes. In the good old days presentation was much different than today. This certainly plays a part in kids lives today.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 02:02 PM

How is it wrong? That when I did things I definately wasn't supposed to my parents put their foot down? Im not saying beat your kid bloody whatever. All Im saying is these kids that they talk about they led up to the shooting because of a bullying or etc, these things could have been prevented by good parents. Looking at what I said I do realize I used the completely wrong analogy. But bottom line, better parenting will reduce this sort of disturbing violence.

I've taught a lot of kids, and many of them had bad parents. They didn't pull out firearms and murder their classmates and teachers. They also didn't grow up and murder their coworkers or people at a shopping mall.

If only good parenting could reduce mental illness.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 02:02 PM

Are you kidding? Last House on the Left is one of the most depraved films that I have ever seen in my life, exceeding anything I've seen in a Saw film and it is hardly obscure, having achieved cult status. In fact, it was put Wes Craven on the map as a horror director.

Let's also not forget Night of the Living Dead (1968), The Omen (1976), The Exorcist (1973), and the Amitiville Horror (1978), all of which were just as gruesome as any modern horror film. Again, this kind of stuff isn't new.

I still maintain that Gunsmoke was every bit as violent as CSI, Law and Order, and the like.

But you could argue that it has become a nescessity in mainstream now, back then, those were the exceptions, now most movies (wrongly) try for the gore, or the sex and drugs, or the moral wrongs. Its becoming more and more mainstream.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 02:03 PM

Again, people talk about the good old days concerning fond memories and experiences. You point out the good old days where not always so good. But that is besides the point, media was not as direct as it is today. People read papers and news on TV did not have full on graphics or interview a 8 year old directly after surviving a multiple killing not but ten feet from him. This is the difference Tak. Its a free for all to get a rating. Its a free for all to get a box office blow out no matter what it takes. In the good old days presentation was much different than today. This certainly plays a part in kids lives today.

This is action replay of our 'poor are lazy' argument. You tell me that it is not what you are doing, and then turn around and do just that. C'mon, man, at least come clean on it.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 02:06 PM

I've taught a lot of kids, and many of them had bad parents. They didn't pull out firearms and murder their classmates and teachers. They also didn't grow up and murder their coworkers or people at a shopping mall.

If only good parenting could reduce mental illness.

No but good parenting can definately affect how that child views the world and turns out. Ive seen it with my nephew, he has autism, used to be real rowdy, my sister came into the picture (she is his stepmother) and raised him as one of her own, and now he is doing quite well for being autistic.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 02:12 PM

This is action replay of our 'poor are lazy' argument. You tell me that it is not what you are doing, and then turn around and do just that. C'mon, man, at least come clean on it.

Here we go, the usual Talk gotcha moment. No, Tak, come clean on believing the media of old is as it is today. No where did I say everything about the good old days are all good. Please find my post were I state the good old days were all lollipops. Find any post were I don't support the idea that there was issues back then. Find a post where I said it was all handled the same across the board.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 02:13 PM

How is it wrong?
Where to start with that one:doh:
but hey as you are so youing surely you should be one of the generation who got brought up without parents losing the plot and resorting to the belt.

Add me to the list. But I will brag. It takes work. I credit my wife for most of it. Brag away Neal.
Add me to the list, but there has never been even the slightest mention or thought of the kids getting a slap for not doing what they are told.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 02:14 PM

No but good parenting can definately affect how that child views the world and turns out. Ive seen it with my nephew, he has autism, used to be real rowdy, my sister came into the picture (she is his stepmother) and raised him as one of her own, and now he is doing quite well for being autistic.

Autistics are not mentally ill, they are mentally disabled. There is a difference. We are talking about depression and anxiety-based disorders. You can't parent those away. As a society, we need to do a better job of getting people that suffer from such disorders the help that they need. Sadly, mental illness remains a higly-stigmatized condition, and many hide it rather than get help. Then the sort of thing we saw on Friday happens.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 02:14 PM

I've taught a lot of kids, and many of them had bad parents. They didn't pull out firearms and murder their classmates and teachers. They also didn't grow up and murder their coworkers or people at a shopping mall.

If only good parenting could reduce mental illness.

But we are so quick to pin it on a mental illness. You have seen bad parents but good kids. It must be mental illness certainly. I would guess this is the reason prescribing pills like candy status quo.

Takeda Shingen

12-16-12, 02:19 PM

Here we go, the usual Talk gotcha moment. No, Tak, come clean on believing the media of old is as it is today. No where did I say everything about the good old days are all good. Please find my post were I state the good old days were all lollipops. Find any post were I don't support the idea that there was issues back then. Find a post where I said it was all handled the same across the board.

The good old days to most are thoughts of friends, family and ice cream. People realize social issues existed then as now but the dynamics and how we are fed media has changed. It would seem these days anything goes

In the good old days presentation was much different than today.

Let's look at this way, there is nothing left to the imagination in the movies we see today.

And that's just a quick persual. However, you're getting a bit hot under the collar, so I think this is a good time for me to back away. You win.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 02:26 PM

Where to start with that one:doh:
but hey as you are so youing surely you should be one of the generation who got brought up without parents losing the plot and resorting to the belt.

Add me to the list, but there has never been even the slightest mention or thought of the kids getting a slap for not doing what they are told.

Let me clarify, I got grounded, yelled at, scorned when I didnt do as I was told (Chores, forget my manners etc.) I got the belt and grounded when I did things I definately should have known not to do (Stole a pack of gum when I was a kid, got into a fight) My parents were good to me but they were firm, they let me know where the line stood, and you know what? I didnt dare cross it, I hated them back then, that was me being a teen.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 02:27 PM

Autistics are not mentally ill, they are mentally disabled. There is a difference. We are talking about depression and anxiety-based disorders. You can't parent those away. As a society, we need to do a better job of getting people that suffer from such disorders the help that they need. Sadly, mental illness remains a higly-stigmatized condition, and many hide it rather than get help. Then the sort of thing we saw on Friday happens.

Okay you make a good point there, touche' Tak.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 02:35 PM

Sorry Casey you just don't make any sense.:nope:

If you didn't dare cross it then how were you still getting a beating for crossing it?

August

12-16-12, 02:40 PM

Are you kidding? Last House on the Left is one of the most depraved films that I have ever seen in my life, exceeding anything I've seen in a Saw film and it is hardly obscure, having achieved cult status. In fact, it was put Wes Craven on the map as a horror director.

We must be talking about two different movies then because that movie was nothing compared to the stuff they put on TV nowadays let alone in the movies.

Let's also not forget Night of the Living Dead (1968), The Omen (1976), The Exorcist (1973), and the Amitiville Horror (1978), all of which were just as gruesome as any modern horror film. Again, this kind of stuff
isn't new.

Like I said Takeda it's not only the special effects but the sheer volume they bombard us with. You had to span a decade to come up with those examples. The Saw franchise alone has seven movies and two video games. Friday the 13th, twelve movies and a TV show , Nightmare on El street 9 movies. Both of the latter also have novels aimed at youngsters too. All of them are also slasher movies not horror movies. There's a difference.

Nippelspanner

12-16-12, 02:48 PM

...have parents be able to put the fear of God in their children. I messed up something once, then I learned, the belt isnt too kind on the rear :shifty:

How is it wrong?

Seriously? I am not even Christian, or religious at all, but to put FEAR in a childs mind IS wrong. On top, Christianity is about love, is it not?

On top, while it may not destroy every kids soul right away when it may get physically punished by their parents, there is an undeniable danger that this might happen and that this might have huge consequences for this child later in life - as we have already seen many times.

Sure, someone with a clean childhood background can go nuts too but it is very rare in comparison. Many criminals were physically and/or sexually abused in their childhood, experienced no love etc.

This can destroy a childs soul quickly and maybe not very noticeable at first. Often, the child will later reflect its experiences onto its own children.

There is no need to beat a child, ever!
And this is no hippie-yibberish (like some ppl really believe), it is simply a psychological fact, the truth.
If parents "must" physically punish their kids - I dare to say, they failed!

Worst, they now punish the child for their own failure, if you catch what I try to say?

Excuse this comparison, but maybe this makes more sense:
If you have a dog and let him have something from your dinner table, you do not have any rights to later punish the dog for begging in the future

Just my 2 cents.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 02:58 PM

And that's just a quick persual. However, you're getting a bit hot under the collar, so I think this is a good time for me to back away. You win.

No Tak, you cherry picked the conversation after your idyllic golden age comment. Nowhere prior to those comments did I say, "In the good old days....". You believed I inferred it and are incorrect. Peruse a bit further back. In post #55 you think my thoughts are another idyllic golden age delusion. Your thoughts are incorrect. What I posted was my experience concerning my upbringing.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 03:03 PM

All of them are also slasher movies not horror movies. There's a difference.
Slasher movies, so that would be like err.... hitchcock classics then or would it be 1960s italian films or 1950s french cinema or 1930s hollywood ?all this modern stuff eh
At least it wasn't present in 19th century theatres and Shakespear didn't do splatterfests of gore in the 1500s:doh:

August

12-16-12, 03:03 PM

to put FEAR in a childs mind IS wrong. On top, Christianity is about love, is it not?

Yet mass murderers were relatively rare when children could still get corporal punishment and now they are becoming increasingly common.

On top, while it may not destroy every kids soul right away when it may get physically punished by their parents, there is an undeniable danger that this might happen and that this might have huge consequences for this child later in life - as we have already seen many times.

Apparently there are also consequences if you don't physically punish your child as we found out Friday.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 03:08 PM

Yet mass murderers were relatively rare when children could still get corporal punishment and now they are becoming increasingly common.
Prove it to be the case?
perhaps you are confusing modern gobal media coverage with reality and letting it skew your perceptions.

Apparently there are also consequences if you don't physically punish your child as we found out Friday.
do you have any evidence about all the actions of either parent during
the past 20 years or are you just trying some bull?

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 03:13 PM

Slasher movies, so that would be like err.... hitchcock classics then or would it be 1960s italian films or 1950s french cinema or 1930s hollywood ?all this modern stuff eh
At least it wasn't present in 19th century theatres and Shakespear didn't do splatterfests of gore in the 1500s:doh:

Slasher, horror, psychological thriller, gore fest....I think the point might be films are more graphic and leave nothing to the imagination?

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 03:21 PM

Sorry Casey you just don't make any sense.:nope:

If you didn't dare cross it then how were you still getting a beating for crossing it?

I didnt dare cross a certain line again after I got whipped for it. I never stole again, however I got in a fight, got whipped for it, never got in another fight again. Its a process, its not all inclusive

Tribesman

12-16-12, 03:53 PM

I didnt dare cross a certain line again after I got whipped for it.
How can you say you didn't dare cross the lines again when you have already said that you wouldn't dare cross them in the first place?

CaptainMattJ.

12-16-12, 04:00 PM

There's been a sharp decline in the ability to discipline a child, yes. Back when my parents were in school they knew exactly what to expect when they misbehaved.

But, again, this isn't the issue here. You are HARDLY desensitizing anyone who watches or plays these games. Most all of you play video games to some degree of violence (silent hunter, again, involves firing a massive warhead into the side of a ship with hundreds of sailors probably going down to their inevitable deaths.) none of you are any less mortified by these stories. I, being in the right age group to vouch for all of the peers i have ever met, can say with absolute certainty that kids today are no less mortified by actual scenes of gore than anyone else. It's a common misconception and seemingly logical assumption that seeing fake gore would then cause children to be desensitized, but this is wholesomely false.

The root of the problem lies with the mental instability of these kids. That kid had serious mental instability and Aspergers which can cause someone to be unable to feel empathy for other beings, making it pretty easy for his mental state to collapse. No kid has ever gone from a normal, mentally healthy child in a stable environment to a psychotic mass murderer simply because of a movie or a game. The overwhelming factor in almsot all of these cases were the already present mental illness and/or terrible environment. Suicide is displayed alot in movies and on TV. No stable child would watch it and go "I should do that because i saw it on TV". He would have to have a really horrible reason to go through with it.

Things like excessive bullying, parent abuse, mental illness, and traumatic experience are the real reasons someone would do something like this. And it most likely wouldn't be just one, it would be multiple factors.

also as mentioned before, this so-called golden age of baby boomers wasn't any such thing. The so called "moral values" of religion were also no such thing. If you look back you'll see just how "great" that generation was, which it was hardly any better than today. There were psychos then and there are psychos now and there will continue to be psychos till the end of mankind. Trying to blame it on anything but the problem is not helping, at all. What we can do to ACTUALLY solve the problem would be to have armed security on campus at all times during school hours, as well as maybe panic buttons that go straight to authorities. At my high school we always had at least 1 liaison officer, armed with a 9mm pistol and if necessary a mossburg 590 (i think) in his squad car. That's a hell of a deterrent. It's the only real solution to trying to stop these things, that and having awareness of any unstable behavior of the people you know.

Nippelspanner

12-16-12, 04:24 PM

Very good post, I completely agree!:salute:
(Edit: Uuuhh, except the armed-on-the-campus-thing) ;)

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 05:17 PM

At CaptMatt, my kids HS has a armed officer. He is like any other officer with every bit of authority to effect arrest and use a firearm if warranted. Yes, I do believe it deters a possible would be.

reignofdeath

12-16-12, 06:04 PM

How can you say you didn't dare cross the lines again when you have already said that you wouldn't dare cross them in the first place?

Im sorry, I misrepresented what I said, I dared to cross the line before, and then I was whipped for it. I learned my lesson each time I messed up is my point. :up:

Sailor Steve

12-16-12, 06:32 PM

How can you say you didn't dare cross the lines again when you have already said that you wouldn't dare cross them in the first place?
You really are the master baiter, aren't you?

Im sorry, I misrepresented what I said, I dared to cross the line before, and then I was whipped for it. I learned my lesson each time I messed up is my point. :up:
Don't apologize to Tribesman. He's doing it on purpose, trying to get your goat.

It's what he does best.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 07:01 PM

He's doing it on purpose, trying to get your goat.

Am I?
Can you explain the logic of beating children and can you demonstrate how it is more benefitial than harmful?
Just wondering as all the teachers I remember who were fond of beating were basicly deranged frustrated *******wits with a complex and an sadistic streak and the parents who used to beat their kids were generally screw ups who ended up simply producing a new generation of screw ups.

edit...i haz had sum more * appear in that post

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 07:07 PM

Am I?
Can you explain the logic of beating children and can you demonstrate how it is more benefitial than harmful?
Just wondering as all the teachers I remember who were fond of beating were basicly deranged frustrated *******wits with a complex and an sadistic streak and the parents who used to beat their kids were generally screw ups who ended up simply producing a new generation of screw ups.

edit...i haz had sum more * appear in that post

I know of one teacher who got physical with students. She was institutionalized. Just how many Mike Tysons did you have teaching in your school? You sound like there was many. So, my mom spanked me with a spoon. She is therefore a screw up and produced more screw ups. I see. :doh:

Tribesman

12-16-12, 07:24 PM

I know of one teacher who got physical with students. She was institutionalized.
So you clearly are not of the right generation then are you, you must be one of the youngsters in the soft world where corporal punishment was banned from schools.
So why are you craving a return to some glorious past world of which you know nothing?

So, my mom spanked me with a spoon. She is therefore a screw up and produced more screw ups. I see. :doh:

Well done, hands out for the cane young man as you clearly are lacking in diligence with your studies. a couple of sharp cracks across your knuckles might make you learn to comprehend simple words before you attempt to respond in future.
Now take out your dictionary and turn to the letter G and point out your mistake to everyone before you get another beating:rotfl2:

August

12-16-12, 07:32 PM

My sixth grade teacher, Mr. Clifford, grabbed me by the collar and slammed me up against a brick wall because I was acting up in class. It didn't hurt me and he only had to do it once. Inflicting permanent damage is wrong of course but kids need discipline.

You know when Americans could spank their kids our nation was on the rise. When we stopped our decline began. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 07:40 PM

So you clearly are not of the right generation then are you, you must be one of the youngsters in the soft world where corporal punishment was banned from schools.
So why are you craving a return to some glorious past world of which you know nothing?

Well done, hands out for the cane young man as you clearly are lacking in diligence with your studies. a couple of sharp cracks across your knuckles might make you learn to comprehend simple words before you attempt to respond in future.
Now take out your dictionary and turn to the letter G and point out your mistake to everyone before you get another beating:rotfl2:

Clearly you are out of your mind. And no, I'm not the software world generation. Personal computers did become personal until my college years starting in 1984. Not really having access until 1986. You are as much misdirected as Tak. Nowhere did I state I wanted to go back to the idyllic golden age. Tak made a wrong assumption. As well as you. Teachers in my era could employ corporal punishment. All but one did not employ this type of punishment. The one that did was mentally ill and institutionalized. But, non-the-less my mom spanked once with a wooden spoon and you believe she is a screw up breeding more screw ups. I can assure you she was not a screw up producing more screw ups. I have 4 siblings. All are productive members of society.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 07:42 PM

You know when Americans could spank their kids our nation was on the rise. When we stopped our decline began. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
Casey got spanked so Americans clearly still can spank their kids.
160+ countries allow parents to beat their kids America is one of those countries.
So any supposed correlation you attempt to draw between the decline of your nation and allowing beating kids is clearly just bollox.:know:

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 07:48 PM

Casey got spanked so Americans clearly still can spank their kids.
160+ countries allow parents to beat their kids America is one of those countries.
So any supposed correlation you attempt to draw between the decline of your nation and allowing beating kids is clearly just bollox.:know:

I don't know who does. I never spanked my kids. Can we see statistics for the bollox you call? These days, spanking your kid produces a 911 call from said kid. Cops arrive to assure the kids welfare is OK. With any luck it was not put on utube to go viral and a restraining order to follow with anger management classes. Kick in some community service as well.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 07:57 PM

Clearly you are out of your mind.
Clearly:har:
You are as much misdirected as Tak.
Really?
Nowhere did I state I wanted to go back to the idyllic golden age.
So when you agree with ass whoopings and lament the possibility of restraining orders for beating kids you are not saying you wanted to go back to the days of beating kids without possible legal repurcusions of the modern nanny state?:hmmm:

But, non-the-less my mom spanked once with a wooden spoon and you believe she is a screw up breeding more screw ups. I can assure you she was not a screw up producing more screw ups. I have 4 siblings. All are productive members of society.
You clearly are a screw up on the comprehension front.
Going right off on one ain't ya:yep:
You really should read, you were even kindly given a pointer on where you had gone wrong

AVGWarhawk

12-16-12, 08:01 PM

Goodnight Tribesman.

August

12-16-12, 08:02 PM

I don't know who does. I never spanked my kids. Can we see statistics for the bollox you call? These days, spanking your kid produces a 911 call from said kid. Cops arrive to assure the kids welfare is OK. With any luck it was not put on utube to go viral and a restraining order to follow with anger management classes. Kick in some community service as well.

You're wasting your time AVG. Trollsman doesn't care about getting at the truth. He only comes here to troll and to instigate trouble. Ever see him wish someone a happy birthday? Ever see him crack a joke that wasn't a personal dig at someone else? It's why he's the only one in this forum I keep on ignore. Nothing he says is worth reading.

Tribesman

12-16-12, 08:13 PM

Can we see statistics for the bollox you call?
Do you mean laws that ban corporal punishment in the home as opposed to laws that ban corporal punishment in school.
Well schools vary state to state but the ban at a federal level still didn't get passed in 2010 and wasn't put forward again in 2011, but on a local level ohio banned it in 2009 and New Mexico did last year.
Which means there must be a very rapid decine in society for recent local bans like those to have an affect on society

These days, spanking your kid produces a 911 call from said kid.
So what is the law that bans spanking your kids?
Oh yeah there isn't one in the States, two individual states tried it 5 years ago but it failed.
So what you have are laws which somehow "ban" spanking kids like....

Subdivision 1.Reasonable force.

Reasonable force may be used upon or toward the person of a child without the child's consent when the following circumstance exists or the actor reasonably believes it to exist:
(a) when used by a parent, legal guardian, teacher, or other caretaker of a child or pupil, in the exercise of lawful authority, to restrain or correct the child or pupil; or
(b) when used by a teacher or other member of the instructional, support, or supervisory staff of a public or nonpublic school upon or toward a child when necessary to restrain the child from self-injury or injury to any other person or property.

....which as you should be able to see does not ban spanking kids:know:

Does that explain why Augusts line......
You know when Americans could spank their kids our nation was on the rise. When we stopped our decline began.
......was bollox?

Tribesman

12-16-12, 08:17 PM

Trollsman doesn't care about getting at the truth. He only comes here to troll and to instigate trouble. Ever see him wish someone a happy birthday? Ever see him crack a joke that wasn't a personal dig at someone else? It's why he's the only one in this forum I keep on ignore. Nothing he says is worth reading.
It is your habit of ignorance which is just like your "friend" which makes you write something which is so obviously nonsense:rotfl2:
Congratulations August please do proceed in the same track while being totally ignorant that your nonsense on corporal punishmen has been shown for the pile of bull it is:yeah:

Sailor Steve

12-16-12, 09:16 PM

Am I?
Can you explain the logic of beating children and can you demonstrate how it is more benefitial than harmful?
I'm not trying to, and neither are you. In this case (which is the only one I'm addressing) all you're doing is twisting Casey's words around to make him look confused. His meaning was quite simple and clear, and you ignored it intentionally just to get a rise out of him. As I said, it's what you do best.

Oberon

12-16-12, 09:49 PM

I think we're drifting a little bit away from the central core of the subject here. How does child discipline affect someone who has mental issues?
No sane person goes into a school and murders twenty young children. It takes a big mental disconnection to do such a thing, to even consider it for that matter. If anything excess physical and even emotional discipline can even exacerbate or cause a mental disorder which can be major or minor but will stick with that child for the rest of his or hers life. Now, I'm not talking about a smack with a wooden spoon by your mother, or even ye olde cane, but systematic physical and mental abuse sustained for a long period of time, there is a big difference between the two, but of course a system designed to detect the latter can be easily broken by those suffering the former and making a big fuss of it. False accusations of physical abuse for example, they take up a lot of time and resources in the relevant authorities to investigate, and a lot of the time it might just be because the child has been told not to do something and abused the system to punish the parent for a perceived injustice. However, sometimes the call is real, sometimes the abuse is real, in the UK we had a case which was referred to as the case of 'Baby P' (for legal reasons the childs full name, Peter Connelly, was not released until the end of the trial) where social services systematically failed to pick up on the abuse of young Peter and he died at the age of 1 as a result of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Baby_P (if you want to read more)

Like any system, it is open to abuse.

There is simply not enough firm information to try to understand the background of Adam Lanza, there's lots of rumours being floated by either side of the gun control lobby which always smell a good chance for a bandwagon (I'm talking both sides here), and to be honest I don't think we'll ever fully know the mindset that puts someone in such a position, people still struggle to understand the mindset of Cho or the Columbine pair, there's plenty of efforts to pigeon-hole it into blaming it on video games, or dark metal music, or bullying, or goths, but no-one can really be sure because the mind is capable of such things that we struggle to comprehend.

Onkel Neal

12-16-12, 10:20 PM

There are a thousand opinions as to why this is happening, but I'm afraid it's not going to stop as long as it gets the attention of the crazies in our midst. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/indiana-man-arrested-threatening-shoot-school-article-1.1221531)

eddie

12-16-12, 10:33 PM

A great article about what a Mother goes through with a son who has the same mindset as Adam did.

http://www.today.com/moms/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-another-moms-cry-help-1C7625059?ocid=msnhp&pos=3

Onkel Neal

12-16-12, 10:39 PM

Yeah, that was posted about 4 pages up by CCIP. I won't claim to know everything there is about children with borderline personality disorders, but in any case, the minute a kid responds to a parent the way this one does in the article, it should be corrected immediately. And not by some wishy-washy "You won't talk to me that way, no Xbox". :nope: It must be addressed in a manner that the kid will not soon forget and will not wish to repeat. And if the child repeats the behavior, then you know there's no hope of raising him in a family setting, ship him off to JV or a psych ward. (If that still exists, these days I wouldn't be surprised if JV has been replaced with Intervention Caring Camp).

mookiemookie

12-16-12, 11:42 PM

Military schools used to be advertised in the back of Boys Life when I was little. I'm sure they're still around.

Stealhead

12-16-12, 11:59 PM

Since the 1980's generally speaking military schools are where the really screwed up kids wind up and then they learn to appear to behave a certain way and do what they want and the ones that have leadership will lern to be bad and clever and be a leader.

Trust me on this the military itself does not improve a bad person it might some but not all if you seek trouble you will still find it in the military ask any MP in the Army or Marines and any SP in the Navy or Air Force.Now some folks that have troubles do improve under the discipline of the military but it is no guarantee.You should just read a base jail log some time.

August

12-17-12, 12:09 AM

Stealhead

12-17-12, 01:30 AM

I'd say it is split right down the middle some stay the same they just live by the rules some improve and others don't change at all.Just from my own experience people that I knew in the military and from people that have been in it goes one of those ways.I know guys that where screw ups in school that where screw ups in the military just the same no change.

I also think that some people in the military make up an interesting story about being some sort of bad dude in their "previous life" to sound cool seems like every one was on track to be a college football star or got a second chance from a judge bogus or was some wicked dope dealer that never got caught and wanted a change either way 90% of the time.Basic training does not change people it merely teaches you how behave in a certain type of society it fails to weed out lots of people that later get kicked out while on active duty.

There where also a pretty good deal of fights and MPs and SPs showing up hell in Germany one guy threw another dude off the 4th floor balcony amazingly the victim survived with a broken back.Every week people where getting busted on dope and not pot but the hard stuff it got so bad in Germany that they stared doing random drug tests on Sunday mornings yeah but load of improvement there it was not every one but it was more than enough to make me want to leave the enlisted dorms ASAP.I was in the Air Force the Army was much worse not trying to talk smack here either just being honest Army married NCOs where begging to get assigned to Air Force housing.Maybe in your day it was different not anymore their is no more NCO justice no real discipline in many units.

Military schools (secondary type) are not the military they just pretend to be full time JROTC nothing more.

Tribesman

12-17-12, 01:44 AM

I'm not trying to, and neither are you. In this case (which is the only one I'm addressing) all you're doing is twisting Casey's words around to make him look confused. His meaning was quite simple and clear, and you ignored it intentionally just to get a rise out of him. As I said, it's what you do best.

Not at all, he was among several people following a line of arguement which makes no sense.
If beating kids for crossing parental set lines was effective then maybe john wanyne gacy would have had more empty space under his floor.

Trust me on this the military itself does not improve a bad person it might some but not all if you seek trouble you will still find it in the military ask any MP in the Army or Marines and any SP in the Navy or Air Force.Now some folks that have troubles do improve under the discipline of the military but it is no guarantee.You should just read a base jail log some time.
Or for another measure look at example of mass murderers or mass shootings and see how many are former military.
They are well represented so clearly putting people through the military isn't an answer.

And to tie the two themes together nicely plus add another common line about armed citizens..... Lets do Texas.
armed citizens yep..... ex military, yep...parents who disciplined their child including beatings, yep .....Charles Whitman still murdered 15 people on campus didn't he.
Maybe he had some time travelled video games or saw some graphicly violent movies which made him like kids of nowadays eh.

Stealhead

12-17-12, 01:46 AM

Not that many actually are former military and there are vets in every state not every vet is a gun lover either I know vets that refuse to even own firearms ones that used them to kill at one point in their lives.Your stretching things.

Charles Whitmann got kicked out of the Marines and he never even saw combat he learned marksmanship from his father.Seems to me if anything like he was off all along though his dad was abusive to him and his family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Tribesman

12-17-12, 01:48 AM

Not that many actually are former military.
Enough are to put paid to the notion that military service is a solution.

Charles Whitmann got kicked out of the Marines
Your own link says he got an honourable discharge in december 1964

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 08:13 AM

You know when Americans could spank their kids our nation was on the rise. When we stopped our decline began. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

Ooohhhh sweet Jebus! :rotfl2:
The worst thing is, you are serious...

Yeah, right, that must be it. Finally someone found the answer! Now, just go spank your kids everyone, spank your kids for a better tomorrow! :yeah:

the_tyrant

12-17-12, 08:28 AM

Regarding the military reforming people: I once read in Soldier Of Fortune about how many gang members have joined the military, some to reform and go on a new career path, but many others join the military to learn important crime related skills.

After all, I would say that military experience makes you a better batman, smuggler, or gang enforcer

August

12-17-12, 08:29 AM

Hottentot

12-17-12, 08:34 AM

Now, just go spank your kids everyone, spank your kids for a better tomorrow! :yeah:

Just remember to do it single handed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtcSYPjJbgg).

Tribesman

12-17-12, 10:39 AM

Buh bye
Well done nipplespanner confronting august with the simple fact that he is writing nonsense has put him in a childish strop and he hasactivated his special little world of ignorance:har:

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 10:44 AM

Yeah... I am really not surprised, its not the first time and I expected exactly that.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZhCw9BswQ6w/Tjll5eB2_kI/AAAAAAAAEV0/8ljpNDWNEBQ/s200/I%2Blove%2Bwhen%2Ba%2Bplan%2Bcomes%2Btogether.gif

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 10:46 AM

http://www.corpun.com/

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 10:50 AM

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 10:51 AM

Maybe I had... :hmmm:

:woot:

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 10:53 AM

Anyway, check the link(post 133) on corporal punishment around the world. Looks to me America is a day at the park concerning corporal punishment.

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 10:58 AM

Im not sure what I just watched :haha:

Tribesman

12-17-12, 11:00 AM

Anyway, check the link(post 133) on corporal punishment around the world. Looks to me America is a day at the park concerning corporal punishment.
So should America should be more like places like Afghanistan Zimbabwe Singapore Thailand Iran and Saudi Arabia as they really go to town when it comes to beating people?

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 11:04 AM

So should America should be more like places like Afghanistan Zimbabwe Singapore Thailand Iran and Saudi Arabia as they really go to town when it comes to beating people?

That was not the reason for posting the link. It would seem the world continues to use CP and CP is diminishing in America. What are the implications? To answer your question though, no, America should not be more like these places depicted but some feel public caning/hangings etc might be good.

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 11:05 AM

Im not sure what I just watched :haha:

So much for the plan then.

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 11:08 AM

AVG, Im not sure I get what you try to say. My "Plan" had nothing to do with you/your video?
It was just related to August, so I really dont understand your point.
Feel free to enlighten me though.

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 11:17 AM

AVG, Im not sure I get what you try to say. My "Plan" had nothing to do with you/your video?
It was just related to August, so I really dont understand your point.
Feel free to enlighten me though.

I'm just messing with you. :03:

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 11:19 AM

And you succeeded... :nope:

Tribesman

12-17-12, 11:34 AM

That was not the reason for posting the link. It would seem the world continues to use CP and CP is diminishing in America.
Yes but the claims made were that American were not allowed to use corporal punishment and that was the reason for the problems.
That arguement some put forward is clearly false.

To answer your question though, no, America should not be more like these places depicted but some feel public caning/hangings etc might be good.
I know, as it isn't a sensible prospect so I didn't expect you to actually hold those views, I think those people who do hold those views are insane.

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 11:49 AM

Yes but the claims made were that American were not allowed to use corporal punishment and that was the reason for the problems.
That arguement some put forward is clearly false.

I know, as it isn't a sensible prospect so I didn't expect you to actually hold those views, I think those people who do hold those views are insane.

Well, let's look at this from the perspective of those countries actively using CP. Do we see crimes similar to what was seen last Friday at a school in these countries the employs the use of CP? Is CP a deterrent in these countries? Eye for an eye sort of thing?

As for CP being the sole reason these crimes are committed in America I do not believe anyone was pinning it all on CP. There are many factors that precipitate these crimes. But the mentally ill, can they associate CP to something they did wrong? I'm not sure. Can a kid on the level comprehend why CP was used and what might happen if he does it again? More than likely. (I'm not talking about those parents who have some sadistic joy in beating a kid). Whatever the case, parenting plays a large part in kids young impressionable lives.

Tribesman

12-17-12, 01:12 PM

Well, let's look at this from the perspective of those countries actively using CP. Do we see crimes similar to what was seen last Friday at a school in these countries the employs the use of CP? Is CP a deterrent in these countries? Eye for an eye sort of thing?

What you are looking at is a selection of police states, crazy dictatorships and loony theocracies.
Do you think any of them can make a valid model for comparison?
If CP is a deterrerent why does Saudi still whip so many people for the same old offences?

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 01:48 PM

What you are looking at is a selection of police states, crazy dictatorships and loony theocracies.

Yes, but for some reason it never changes and some how what Americans are doing is wrong.

Do you think any of them can make a valid model for comparison?

Possibly. We are talking about behavior. Not governments. I understand governments make the laws and consequences but this is about behavior modification.

If CP is a deterrerent why does Saudi still whip so many people for the same old offences?

I think it has become a sport and mob mentality when it takes place. It's their football. I think those that attend enjoy this activity. Why else would they attend? Sure, some seek justice. Some seek to see.

August

12-17-12, 03:40 PM

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 04:47 PM

Except you were wrong like your countrymen usually are when it comes to us.

Yep, sure. Its always the other guy, right?
And coincidentally, when you run out of arguments, you start with crap like this.

That proves enough.

August

12-17-12, 05:24 PM

Yep, sure. Its always the other guy, right?
And coincidentally, when you run out of arguments, you start with crap like this.

That proves enough.

No it's not always the other guy, it's just you. :up:

Nippelspanner

12-17-12, 05:35 PM

No it's not always the other guy, it's just you. :up:

Glad to be of service.
Count on me the next time you post nuisance - or insult others without any reason.

You know... German reliability. :yeah:

August

12-17-12, 05:38 PM

Glad to be of service.
Count on me the next time you post nuisance - or insult others without any reason.

You know... German reliability. :yeah:

Excellent. I will enjoy taunting you.

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 06:42 PM

Well, I'm glad that's settled. :haha:

Onkel Neal

12-17-12, 08:14 PM

Ooohhhh sweet Jebus! :rotfl2:
The worst thing is, you are serious...

Yeah, right, that must be it. Finally someone found the answer! Now, just go spank your kids everyone, spank your kids for a better tomorrow! :yeah:

Ignoring the three pages of namecalling, let me say, it's not just spanking, it's about teaching respect, teaching limits, and not letting children raise themselves.

"Spanking" is just one component, which if done properly, is rarely needed.

August

12-17-12, 08:38 PM

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 08:59 PM

Things look a bit different when you are the one responsible for and pulling rank on your kids. Kids need direction, boundaries and stability at home. Many shoot you down who have not had the pleasure of experiencing the other side. Neal is dead on. Kids should not be allowed to raise themselves. In this world of being self-absorbed it would seem this is how parenting goes for some. Mental illness left unchecked for whatever reason proves to be detrimental. Enabling with having weapons around the house unchecked and easy access proves to be a poor decision. Believing your kid thinks and acts like an adult is delusional at best.

Armistead

12-17-12, 10:02 PM

Ignoring the three pages of namecalling, let me say, it's not just spanking, it's about teaching respect, teaching limits, and not letting children raise themselves.

"Spanking" is just one component, which if done properly, is rarely needed.

Agreed.

I think "Andy Taylor" was a perfect roll model for fathers. Seldom did he have to take Opie out behind the shed. If we do it right, then when they start wanting to spread their wings, we can kick them out of the nest ASAP....into a productive life.

Mostly, we must raise our kids correctly in early life, as a monk once said..

"give me your child his first seven years and I will have him for life."

Stealhead

12-17-12, 10:43 PM

My parents when we where younger would spank us for a serious violation but nothing worse than that. Generally speaking we just respected our parents I guess they where not insanely strict but they had rules like bedtimes do you school work first then your leisure.A teenager even at 18 during the week we where supposed to be in bed by 11:00pm or reading.On the week end you had to be home by 12:00am and we always had to say where we went and if we planned to stay.

My mother used to say if we bad mouthed "I will wash your mouth out with soap" when I was 5 or 6 I called her bluff and she did it with Ivory soap:haha:
Of course it gave me a little rash so she never did it again.

Another time as a teenager I was being extremely disrespectful to my mother and my dad walked into the room and grabbed me by the shoulders and made me sit in a chair and basically told me to shut up and do what my mother asked.He is a very strong man and his hands did leave red marks on my shoulders but I was a fairly strong teenager and he did it to get my attention. I am glad that he did it because it was exactly what I needed at the moment.

I had friends that where not so lucky as myself and they either had lax parents or strict and abusive ones.One friends father was pretty bad once they where playing a Super Nes game and my friend kept winning finally his dad got up and threw the game controller at him and when he tried to run away he got punched in the back of the head and knocked out the father went to prison later for breaking the mothers arm.

AVGWarhawk

12-17-12, 11:11 PM

Stealhead

12-17-12, 11:41 PM

Steel head, your upbringing is an exact mirror of mine. Right to the letter. I too had a friend who's parents were drinkers. He as well as his brothers did what the wanted. No one other than the cops to keep them in check. Needless to say the cops spent a great deal of time at their house.

My friends siblings the outcome varied his siblings have not done well except one sister who has done well the rest have in and out of jail, drug abuse. My friend I think he would be in prison right now if he had not met and married his wife.Knowing how he behaved in school his wife is the foundation for him she saved him you could say a Baltimore girl by the way born and raised.My friend he was born there and later moved to Florida and then back to Baltimore after high school.You know Baltimore well enough plenty of trouble to get yourself into there if you have the notion.

Oberon

12-18-12, 01:36 AM

Just looked at this mornings copy of The Sun, the headline "KILLER'S CALL OF DUTY OBSESSION" with such gems as this from a plumber that went into Adams basement.

"It was a beautiful house but he lived in the basement. I always thought that was strange. But he had a proper set up down there - computers, a bathroom, bed and desk and a TV. There were no windows."

and

"They had one poster of every piece of military equipment the US ever made. It was a huge poster with every tank every made [typo not mine] The kids could tell you about the guns they had never seen from the 40s, 50s and 60s."
"The kids who play these games know all about them."
"I'm not blaming the games for what happened, but they see a picture of a historical gun and say 'I've used that on Call Of Duty."

Then, as if the giant sub-headline on the insert of "BLACK OPS BUNKER" wasn't good enough, they also have "CALL OF DUTY IN RAMPAGES LINK" noting that Anders Breivik and Mohammed Merah also played Call of Duty: Modern Warfare.

Less exciting for The Sun (because there isn't a video game of it presumably) is the news that the maniac who knifed 23 children in China claims to have done so because of the Mayan 'end of the world prophecy'.

It's not quite "BAN THESE SICK GAMES" Daily Mail level, but it's hyping up that way...but what else do you expect from the Murdoch media empire... :/\\!!

So there you have it folks, if you live in a basement, and you've played a violent video game then you're automatically entitled to become a raging psychopath! :yep:

Tribesman

12-18-12, 03:01 AM

Yes, but for some reason it never changes and some how what Americans are doing is wrong.

Yes but is the whole CP thing just a red herring?
After all the initial claims were not even true so trying to build on that is pretty much a no go plus even if it were true it is so easy to find examples which show it to be nonsense.
As for what America is doing wrong, thats the same as with any country, there are so many different factors involved there is no easily identifiable single problem or solution.

Possibly. We are talking about behavior. Not governments. I understand governments make the laws and consequences but this is about behavior modification.

Yes but those example involve totalitarian regimes and other very unsavoury practices which themselves modify behavior.
What you would need for a measure is other countries which allow corporal punishment in the same manner as the US does, there is a large pile of countries to choose in that category but none seem to have the same shooter problem.
That does suggest that the whole CP thing is irrelevant.

I think it has become a sport and mob mentality when it takes place. It's their football. I think those that attend enjoy this activity. Why else would they attend? Sure, some seek justice. Some seek to see.
A circus for the public eh? old as time isn't it.
So..
Hang em ...draw a crowd. flog them..draw a crowd ...guillotine draw a crowd, stone them ...draw a crowd, put them in stocks.... draw a crowd...but did any of them actually work in really cutting crime.
String em up in the town square for stealing a sheep, you still string up another for the same offence the next week and the next week and the next week....

Nippelspanner

12-18-12, 05:20 AM

...it's about teaching respect, teaching limits, and not letting children raise themselves.

Exactly!

"Spanking" is just one component, which if done properly, is rarely needed.

Done properly or not, spanking/physical punishment is never needed. It is, for many, an option but that does not justify it. By reading this thread it appears that folks from earlier generations have much less problems with this methods, while younger folks like me turn green when even thinking of it.

Everyone has its opinion, thats fine. I just want to say that theres a reason why physical punishment is against the law nowadays (in the western countries). It is because ppl who can tell (pychologists, educational theorists, ...) know about the possible consequences and dangers.

Not much more to say about that, my point is clear I guess. :salute:

Tribesman

12-18-12, 06:52 AM

Done properly or not, spanking/physical punishment is never needed.
Yes, having to resort to physical violence on your kids is a sign of failure on your part and the desperation that comes with that failure.
If you havn't been able to teach respect, teach limits without resorting to beating the brats you failed to already teach respect and teach limits to then what makes you think violence is the solution for your failures.

I know plenty of people who do spank or worse, yet their kids are still horrible little bastards and no amout of beating will ever change them from being the horrible little bastards they were made into, it may put on small mask on it on occasion but behind it they remain the little brats their parents made them into by not firmly setting lines that they then kept to themselves.

I just want to say that theres a reason why physical punishment is against the law nowadays (in the western countries).
But physical punishment is not against the law in most countries or most western countries

Nippelspanner

12-18-12, 06:56 AM

Tribesman

12-18-12, 08:40 AM

Put it this way Spanner.
When people comment and say how are your kids so polite and well behaved my natural response is how are yours not.
You set the lines and keep to the lines, you don't leave off and then shift off to a whole new set of lines.
The wonderful thing with kids nowadays is because they have so much and can do so much compared to the poor old darkages when we old uns got raised in a shoebox on the side of the road working 26 hours a day and eating cold gravel if we were lucky to be fed and then were grateful for it...the amount of stuff they have and the amount of things they do just gives such an increased scope of how to keep kids raised in line.

Wow, really? Honestly I assumed it is.
You made the same basic error as august makes, but from the opposite direction.
Though yours is one of the countries where it is banned both in school and at home, unlike Augusts country where it is banned in neither.

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 08:41 AM

Yes, having to resort to physical violence on your kids is a sign of failure on your part and the desperation that comes with that failure.

If you havn't been able to teach respect, teach limits without resorting to beating the brats you failed to already teach respect and teach limits to then what makes you think violence is the solution for your failures.

This is your opinion from the looks of it. Don't go looking for hard numbers that a spanking is detrimental to the child. There are none. Just opinion, professional and popular. Your use of the word brat would indicate you have no children. I often find it hard to form a educated opinion when not faced with the actual issue at hand.

Very well said, that´s what I tried to deliver, thanks!

Yes, bravo. Popular opinion or just your opinion? I would also venture a guess both of you envision a beat down into submission spanking. This would not be the case in most instances. At least from my experience. A swat to bottom. Swat to the top of the hand as a child reaches over a hot stove. Time out chair. Take away something for a while the child likes. Sure, there are few sadistic bastards out there that get some sort of satisfaction whooping the hell out their kid. There a plenty more that are not swatting out of malice but more than likely a last resort. We all have our opinions on spanking. In practice, I have not swatted my kids. I can not say the same for my wife who once swatted our eldest.

If you two do have children, how are handling your unruly child?

Tribesman

12-18-12, 08:46 AM

This is your opinion from the looks of it. Don't go looking for hard numbers that a spanking is detrimental to the child. There are none. Just opinion, professional and popular. Your use of the word brat would indicate you have no children. I often find it hard to form a educated opinion when not faced with the actual issue at hand.

You really are having comprehension problems lately.:rotfl2:

If you two do have children, how are handling your unruly child?
I don't have unruly children which is why people ask how they are so well behaved:doh:
Its called teaching them limits and respect.

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 08:48 AM

You really are having comprehension problems lately.:rotfl2:

I don't have unruly children which is why people ask how they are so well behaved:doh:
Its called teaching them limits and respect.

Your really are coming up with poor answers lately. :rotfl2:

So you have children? These kids stand to with hands in pockets and do not speak until spoken to? Your opinion/popular opinion on spanking. Nothing more.

August

12-18-12, 09:04 AM

AVG if you believe anything that he says I would like to interest you in this bridge I am selling... :yep:

Tribesman

12-18-12, 09:04 AM

Your really are coming up with poor answers lately.
You are consistantly going off on one despite all the needed words already being put down which clearly show that you are going off in the wrong direction entirely.

So you have children?
No of course not I get my imaginary parenting skills from a leaflet I once found in a discarded cornflakes packet on the moon.

These kids stand to with hands in pockets and do not speak until spoken to?
What strange children, did you pick them up out of some stuffy victorian novel?
Funny really as the youngests teacher comments on how she always questions everything and won't stop with the questions until the answers makes sense, like he says the priest finds it very very infuriating when he comes to their class.
Like he says, kids like mine make teaching a pleasure.:smug:

Tribesman

12-18-12, 09:07 AM

AVG if you believe anything that he says I would like to interest you in this bridge I am selling... :yep:

august, you and your special friend Skybird are the two that are liars and it is easily demonstrated to be the case.
So why don't you go back to your world of ignorance you silly troll.

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 09:10 AM

AVG if you believe anything that he says I would like to interest you in this bridge I am selling... :yep:

I will give you Tribesman standard answer when he has none:

:rotfl2:

Tribesman

12-18-12, 09:17 AM

I will give you Tribesman standard answer when he has none:

:rotfl2:
That would have been a better answer as even though his comments have been full of lies and distortions throughout this topic you yourself have said that he cannot really have any idea what he is talking about:up:
Which means, Augusts efforts at trying to make sense.....:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:

maybe his parents failed to teach him as a little child that he shouldn't lie

Nicolas

12-18-12, 09:33 AM

Tribesman

12-18-12, 09:52 AM

In the days of my parents even teachers could hit the kid fingers with a rule if they did something very wrong, and then when the kid return to the house he would take another beating from his father. But those were better times for the family i think.

So you want to go back to the days when parents beat their kids and their kids later went out and murdered people like at the University of Texas?

Warhawk one question on something you earlier wrote.
Hot stoves. At what age or size did you teach your kids about the dangers of hot stoves? how about kettles, open fires, matches, candles?
Did you ever introduce them to any burns victims(or victims of any other hazard people have to live with daily).
Just wondering as you mention slapping the hand away from a hot stove, don't you think they should be taught about what not to do with a hot stove before they get to the stage where they can even reach it?

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 10:06 AM

[QUOTE=Tribesman;1977861
Warhawk one question on something you earlier wrote.
Hot stoves. At what age or size did you teach your kids about the dangers of hot stoves? how about kettles, open fires, matches, candles?
Did you ever introduce them to any burns victims(or victims of any other hazard people have to live with daily).
Just wondering as you mention slapping the hand away from a hot stove, don't you think they should be taught about what not to do with a hot stove before they get to the stage where they can even reach it?[/QUOTE]

My kids grandmother suffered 3rd degree burns as a child reaching over the stove. She was wearing her nightgown while making breakfast for her mother. Her entire right breast was taken. Her right arm was melted scared flesh as well as her entire neck. My kids understood after questions were answered. Both of my kids grandparents died of cancer at 50 and 54. These deaths were by cigarettes. Not much discussion was required on cigarettes. You may stop cherry picking. A few posts back I stated I never swatted my kids. My wife did once.

When I need a lesson on parenting I'll ask you. Until then dispense with attempting to teach a lesson. Thanks.

Nicolas

12-18-12, 10:24 AM

So you want to go back to the days when parents beat their kids and their kids later went out and murdered people like at the University of Texas?

?? no just saying.

August

12-18-12, 10:29 AM

?? no just saying.

He's trying to make the claim that if you spank your children it will turn them into mass murderers, or IRA members, one or the other.

nikimcbee

12-18-12, 10:41 AM

He's trying to make the claim that if you spank your children it will turn them into mass murderers, or IRA members, one or the other.

Is there free guiness if I join?

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 10:46 AM

He's trying to make the claim that if you spank your children it will turn them into mass murderers, or IRA members, one or the other.

Tribesman is attempting to associate Charles Whitman and the TX University shooting to the beating his old man gave him. Might have been a part. Kind of left out the Marines where he learned other types of discipline. No mention of the drugs he was on and the sleep deprivation before the shootings. Numerous other issues in his life. Also failed to mention Charles had 2 brothers that experienced the same when growing up but did not climb a clock tower and kill with a rifle.

Tribesman

12-18-12, 11:17 AM

A few posts back I stated I never swatted my kids. My wife did once.

Yet you also used an example where someone might.
Swat to the top of the hand as a child reaches over a hot stove.
Yet yourself have now shown a better approach
My kids understood after questions were answered.
So you answered my question and agreed with me, thank you for demonstrating my point and how the approach works.:03:

When I need a lesson on parenting I'll ask you. Until then dispense with attempting to teach a lesson. Thanks.
Do you think the lesson was aimed at you?:har::har::har::har::har:
Maybe its aimed at those people who you say cannot really form a proper opinion on it, like the troll:03:

Tribesman is attempting to associate Charles Whitman and the TX University shooting to the beating his old man gave him.
errrr no, I am repeating the point that the beatings didn't stop him and that he came from that mythical golden age when ass whooping was good.

Kind of left out the Marines where he learned other types of discipline.
No that was already dealt with earlier when the same people who are saying beating is the answer said that military service is also the answer.#
Please try and keep up:smug:

No mention of the drugs he was on and the sleep deprivation before the shootings. Numerous other issues in his life.
You mean these things are complex? wow, better tell that to those that want simple answers.

Also failed to mention Charles had 2 brothers that experienced the same when growing up but did not climb a clock tower and kill with a rifle.
So individuals are different, I wonder who made that point already:hmmm:

He's trying to make the claim that if you spank your children it will turn them into mass murderers, or IRA members, one or the other.

Your parents really failed with you, clearly you are a habitual liar, it goes with ignorance in more ways than one:rotfl2:

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 11:26 AM

Tribesman, did you explain to your children that it is ok to lose an argument every now and then? Continued grasping of straws will prove to be pointless in some matters? :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

12-18-12, 11:37 AM

:haha:....and the shootings continue.

Sailor Steve

12-18-12, 11:44 AM

After careful reading of this and many other threads, I've come to a conclusion:

Skybird and Tribesman are one and the same person, suffering from a most severe case of split personality.

The evidence? Neither one is ever wrong. Both seem to be incapable of having an honest discussion. Both take the role of supreme expert in every subject, and presume to lecture rather than discuss.

The differences? Where Skybird talks down to those he considers his inferiors (which is pretty much everybody), Tribesman merely mocks them. Where Skybird is deadly serious with the ocassional glimps of humor, Tribesman has a cutting sense of humor, only ocassionally showing a serious side and saying something worth listening to.

Lecture at eleven. Full text of study available in print on December 22, price $49.95 ($49.89 at Wal*Mart).

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 11:51 AM

Steve, I think you really missed your calling. :up: You need a couch for your patients, chair for yourself and a steno pad with pencil. :up: When is the book signing?

August

12-18-12, 12:05 PM

Tribesman is attempting to associate Charles Whitman and the TX University shooting to the beating his old man gave him. Might have been a part. Kind of left out the Marines where he learned other types of discipline. No mention of the drugs he was on and the sleep deprivation before the shootings. Numerous other issues in his life. Also failed to mention Charles had 2 brothers that experienced the same when growing up but did not climb a clock tower and kill with a rifle.

In other words he's cherry picking. :)

Tribesman

12-18-12, 12:07 PM

Tribesman, did you explain to your children that it is ok to lose an argument every now and then? Continued grasping of straws will prove to be pointless in some matters?
Do you explain to your kids that they should always miss the point and carry on regardless in the wrong direction.

Skybird and Tribesman are one and the same person, suffering from a most severe case of split personality.

No Skybird and August are the same, they both are habitual liars who luckily didn't breed:O:

August

12-18-12, 12:07 PM

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 12:10 PM

Do you explain to your kids that they should always miss the point and carry on regardless in the wrong direction.

Ok, apparently you haven't. I have that answer for you....:rotfl2:

Tribesman

12-18-12, 12:19 PM

Ok, apparently you haven't. I have that answer for you....
since much of the topic has been you missing what was written lets go again .

Do you explain to your kids that they should always miss the point and carry on regardless in the wrong direction.:yep:

Maybe you should also tell them that they cannot win or lose an arguement if they cannot even understand what is written as they can never have addressed it. Or maybe your kids should teach you

Sammi79

12-18-12, 12:20 PM

Well, this thread doubled in size since I started reading... So sorry if my points relate to an earlier part in the discussion.

CP, mental disorder, violent video games, violent films/TV, violence on the news, parenting. I agree with some points people made about these, I don't believe CP is necessary but I don't believe it damaged me either. I understood clearly when my father explained to me once that it hurt him more than it hurt me. I only ever received a 'spanking' after having made a possibly dangerous or fatal mistake like venturing out on a frozen lake. It didn't stop me doing it a few more times however, so I am sceptical about the effectiveness of it. More could and should be done for people with disorders of the mind the world over, but that means paying more taxes for it. Violent media? I remember WW2 based comics that were full of people being blown to pieces, sometimes albeit rarely drawn with the most exceptional skill and attention to detail, so I'm with Takeda on that. I don't think it has changes much in my lifetime. Parenting? well that's a huge issue of its own everywhere. I would like to see a parenting qualification offered free in secondary school or some such here in UK. Mandatory pass before you can have children. Got to be free otherwise only the wealthy can procreate. That means more taxes...

But these are all red herrings. To claim that a violent video game is an enabler to mass murder, while the legally obtainable tool used to commit the crime is not is possibly the most twisted logic I have encountered this year.

It is a predictable attempt to avoid the real issue, which is your right to bear arms, however justifiable in its conception it may have been. In this contemporary time, this right is increasingly infringing on the rights of children to their life. To be honest I see little in the way of change coming really just the same old red herrings vs the conscientious objections, to be quietly forgotten in political apathy or impotence over increasingly short periods of time. By doing nothing, you by default choose acceptance of these sacrifices as risks that are worth taking within your society. Shouldn't your rights end where an others begins?

And yes many non Americans are exasperated by this, and though your nationalists will forever assume belligerence to be an appropriate response, they are wrong to assume we just simply like sticking our noses in. Every bereft parent in the world knows what the parents and friends of the victims are going through, and there are many. Their pain and grief is shared by us all as human beings. You don't want our pity? Then change something! Disallow private storage, keep all lockups under 24hr armed guard, ban outright handguns and/or military grade weapons, etc. There are many things that could be done with gun controls to reduce the risk of similar incidents. Personally speaking, I don't think restricting violent media of any kind, more corporal punishment or increased support for mental disorders would achieve a comparable effect, though they might still be worthwhile things to do.

I have watched these threads and out of respect I have held my tongue until now. A few had me gagging for a response, but I am apparently learning discipline when it comes to internet discussion, so - in regard to the recent tragedy:

My sincere deepest condolences and best wishes for the families and friends of the victims and indeed the entire nation. I hope that you recover as best and as quick as you can, it is with hollow voice and all I can say, that in time the pain will dull.

Sam.

nikimcbee

12-18-12, 12:25 PM

In other words he's cherry picking. :)

That post was way too short. You need atleast a thesis statement, 27 supporting paragraphs, some supporting artwork, funny cat picture, and bibliography.

Please resubmit post.
Thanks, management.

Hottentot

12-18-12, 12:26 PM

I like puppies. I'd never beat a puppy. :06:

12-18-12, 12:46 PM

But these are all red herrings. To claim that a violent video game is an enabler to mass murder, while the legally obtainable tool used to commit the crime is not is possibly the most twisted logic I have encountered this year.

That is some very sharp point.

Yet i don't believe that games are the cause for kids to commit violet crimes but still may be inspirational for some with mental problems.
The same for access to guns ...mental problems and easy access to firearms can give the inspiration.

Question is if Americans should deal with it just as anything else in life...no one is outlawing driving for example...or try to do something about it at the price of this freedom.

As i said...in my personal opinion guns laws should be more strict and owning rifles is unnecessary unless proven otherwise.

Armistead

12-18-12, 01:33 PM

I agree with AVG Steve. You'd have made a great Psychologist. :salute:

Do you have a newsletter? I wish to subscribe! :D

Steve should have a sticky at the top

"Doctor is in"

It could be Susbims way of giving back to the public gratis...

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 01:35 PM

Steve should have a sticky at the top

"Doctor is in"

It could be Susbims way of giving back to the public gratis...

Steve would be very busy around these parts. :haha:

Armistead

12-18-12, 01:40 PM

Steve would be very busy around these parts. :haha:

Yea, nothing better than a good dose of online Prozac. I think we need our own version of "Dear Abby". I know I have issues I would like to discuss.

AVGWarhawk

12-18-12, 01:52 PM

Yea, nothing better than a good dose of online Prozac. I think we need our own version of "Dear Abby". I know I have issues I would like to discuss.

:haha:

August

12-18-12, 02:59 PM

It's not violent video games.

It's video games and movies and TV and a weakened family system and poor adult supervision and a lack of discipline and an emphasis on fame (good or bad) as the measure of success, and a thousand other things that we have allowed to creep into our society.

Like I said we wash our kids in virtual blood from cradle to adulthood and then wonder why some, not all, but some, become fixated with it and then some of those, again not all, act upon those fantasies.

If violent media had no effect then there would be no such thing as copy cat crimes. People see or hear about an event and that inspires them to act likewise. It doesn't affect everyone that way certainly but even one out of a million is 300 potential Adam Lanzas in America alone.

Platapus

12-18-12, 08:04 PM

It doesn't affect everyone that way certainly but even one out of a million is 300 potential Adam Lanzas in America alone.

When you put the statistics in that context, its pretty scary. :yep:

Tribesman

12-19-12, 02:20 AM

When you put the statistics in that context, its pretty scary.
When you transfer those statistics doesn't it mean europe should be having more school shootings than america?
After all it has the same media the same video games the same family breakdowns the same celebrity nobodies(it even has some countries where corporal punishment is really illegal:03:) .
So why isn't it producing 500 potential Lanzas to Americas 300?

Given that we are told that we don't understand your gun culture and are often reminded that so many Americans consider guns as a really important thing does it suggest that where all the other factors are relatively equal the problem lies with the one thing that we are told is very different?

AVGWarhawk

12-19-12, 10:27 AM

When you transfer those statistics doesn't it mean europe should be having more school shootings than america?
After all it has the same media the same video games the same family breakdowns the same celebrity nobodies(it even has some countries where corporal punishment is really illegal:03:) .
So why isn't it producing 500 potential Lanzas to Americas 300?

Given that we are told that we don't understand your gun culture and are often reminded that so many Americans consider guns as a really important thing does it suggest that where all the other factors are relatively equal the problem lies with the one thing that we are told is very different?

Gun ownership is a right afforded by the Constitution. There is a gun culture as you suggest. Normally called gun clubs. I don't see guns as important. I believe the right to own one is the important part of the equation. Not the actual gun itself. Why is it not producing 500 potential Lanzas to the Americas 300? Perhaps it is but the tool to accomplish what Lanzas did is not present. People kill people. Guns just help them do it.

I don't understand your "very different" comment. Can you clarify?

August

12-19-12, 10:45 AM

I don't understand your "very different" comment. Can you clarify?

He's just trolling for trouble. Don't expect a decent answer.

The truth is that Europe and the US are very different. In demographics, culture, history, approach to health care and government makeup.

And as the Norway, Hungerford, Miami Showband, Kingsmill, the Remembrance Day bombings, Vukovar, Greysteel, Dunblane and Omagh killings show they have their share of massacres as well.

AVGWarhawk

12-19-12, 10:51 AM

Yes, it would seem these occurrences happen just about everywhere. The method a bit different but the same end result.

Armistead

12-19-12, 04:40 PM

Gun Dealers have to love this mess when they talk about banning guns, the one up the road has sold out of assault weapons and clips. However, I see Dick's is going to no longer sell these type guns....

Dowly

12-20-12, 02:19 AM

Totalbiscuit released a video yesterday, giving his opinion on the link between
these shootings and violent video games:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwAo8lcAC4

Tribesman

12-20-12, 02:45 AM

He's just trolling for trouble. Don't expect a decent answer.

Since you are just a troll who repeatedly lies because you cannot make a point that is very funny.

And as the Norway, Hungerford, Miami Showband, Kingsmill, the Remembrance Day bombings, Vukovar, Greysteel, Dunblane and Omagh killings show they have their share of massacres as well.
What a strange mix of events, well done , you even manage two decent examples from a 25 year period which can actually fit what you need to say, I wonder if a 2 year period would provide 25 American examples which would all fit:hmmm:

So onto someone sensible....
I don't understand your "very different" comment. Can you clarify?
What are we repeatedly told in topics like this is "very different" about the USA?
If you take Augusts list of different which is unsurprisinly actually very wrong you should be able to spot the thing that is missing.

AVGWarhawk

12-20-12, 09:18 AM

What are we repeatedly told in topics like this is "very different" about the USA?
If you take Augusts list of different which is unsurprisinly actually very wrong you should be able to spot the thing that is missing.

Guns and the mentality of owning guns is very different from other cultures that I have dealt with directly, indirectly or read about. But that may not be what you are talking about. What is the topic? Precisely what portion of the topic that is missing? It might be time not to use "riddle me this" to spot the thing that is missing.

the_tyrant

12-20-12, 09:46 AM

in America ita crackpots with guns, in chija your crackpots use knives, in Japan your crackpots use poison gas

its the crackpot that we should focus on, not the tool.

Dowly

12-20-12, 09:49 AM

its the crackpot that we should focus on, not the tool.

Indeed. :yep:

Onkel Neal

12-20-12, 09:57 AM

Everyone has their own opinion, but I think we all agree, what we have been doing ain't working.

It is the crackpot, but the tool certainly helps them kill quickly and effectively.

Nippelspanner

12-20-12, 10:06 AM

Exactly Neal.

AVGWarhawk

12-20-12, 10:08 AM

its the crackpot that we should focus on, not the tool.

I would agree, but the tool such as the gun, needs to have stipulation attached to it. The gun owner keeping the weapon under lock and key. Easy access(in the home) is what is proving to be the problem. Who is ultimately responsible?

Tribesman

12-20-12, 10:28 AM

Guns and the mentality of owning guns is very different from other cultures that I have dealt with directly, indirectly or read about.
Excactly, so when all the elements that are not different are removed from the equation then the remaining element which is different is the main cause.

It might be time not to use "riddle me this" to spot the thing that is missing.
Since that is already spelt out and was obvious anyway how about a simple riddle. Can you see why all of Augusts examples of non American massacres apart from two are totally irrelevant?

Sailor Steve

12-20-12, 10:31 AM

Can you see why all of Augusts examples...are totally irrelevant?
No, and the way in which you go about attacking them doesn't help make it any more clear. You seem to live on your own plane of existence, and expect everybody else to understand it by default.

AVGWarhawk

12-20-12, 10:58 AM

No, and the way in which you go about attacking them doesn't help make it any more clear. You seem to live on your own plane of existence, and expect everybody else to understand it by default.

I back this statement up. :up: Tribesman, your a smart person and some of the ideas and statements you post are brilliant. Then there are times it is all riddles. This is one of those times.

eddie

12-20-12, 11:03 AM

Everyone has their own opinion, but I think we all agree, what we have been doing ain't working.

It is the crackpot, but the tool certainly helps them kill quickly and effectively.

I agree Neal. Was surprised to see this article in a way. Armored back packs for kids are a popular item now, and sales of assault rifles like the one used in Newtown, are on the rise, along with the clips that hold extra rounds.

On the one hand, parents are buying something to protect their children. On the other hand, the very thing that was used to kill those kids, sales are going through the roof.:huh:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50255928

Armistead

12-20-12, 01:41 PM

My son just got home from school and told me it was put on lockdown and police took over the school...No shooter of course, appears some kids joking with other kids about school shootings and another kid reported it.

The sad thing, is when they did this, many kids went nuts, being high school, many just went home.

AVGWarhawk

12-20-12, 02:23 PM

Takeda Shingen

12-20-12, 02:27 PM

The take any threat seriously these days. Even those joking on FB. There has been rumors of violence at my kids HS tomorrow. End of the world and all. I let my kids know they can stay home if they like.

Thankfully the semester has already ended for me and my eldest already. I can imagine some chaos tomorrow, so I think we'll be staying in. Besides, I have Rolos to eat. Lots of Rolos.

AVGWarhawk

12-20-12, 02:29 PM

We receive emails and automated calls concerning issues like this. Each and every rumor or chatter of problems is investigated. Additional police presence is ordered. I can say my 14 year old is concerned for her safety. Not in school really, just in public in general. The lunacy is out of control.

Tribesman

12-21-12, 04:16 AM

No, and the way in which you go about attacking them doesn't help make it any more clear. You seem to live on your own plane of existence, and expect everybody else to understand it by default.
Well as they were so obvious I didn't think poeple would have dificulty spotting how they don't fit in a topic about nuts on a random rampage.

1. A racist nut tries to start a war for the white race with his mythical christian templar army by attacking parliament with a bomb and then attacking a political parties gathering to further his aims as set out in his long rambling "political/cultural" agenda published on the internet.
2. That fits, a gun nut has a arguement with his mother and goes on a random rampage.
3. Some soldiers and some terrorists set up an illegal checkpoint and slaughter some of the people they stop on the basis of their religious affiliation.
4. Some terrorists set up a road block stopped a van and then after seperating individuals of the "wrong" religion shot them.
5. Some terrorists blew up a military themed gathering on the notion that anyone in attendance would be on "the other side" of the political divide.
6. A massacre of surrendered disarmed prisoners during a rather brutal civil war which has at its base divisions over religion and ethnicity.
7. Some terrorists in the employment of the state using tax payer funded weapons which were illegally shipped from an embargoed pariah state murder people in a place because the location is one frequented by people of the "wrong" religion.
8. That fits, a gun nut facing the prospect of losing his guns and losing the ability to work with children goes on a rampage.
9. some terrorists including an american working for the government as an undercover terrorist fund raiser randomly blow up a town center full of people in an attempt to stop a political process.

Simple isn't it. :yep: 2 events in a 25 year period

But hey August has since upped the ante in ridiculousness.
Now in the other schools shooting topic we are getting things like.... the legions of Rome beat the armies of the druids in ancient gaul and that was a massacre so they do happen everywhere which is why teachers need guns :doh:

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 09:12 AM

I don't know, this list of rampage killers is a bit larger than yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

I do not see it as that simple after looking over this list.

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 09:20 AM

This guy got pissed at his girlfriend. 57 dead when all said and done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-kon

:hmmm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre

Kills mom, people, his own dog.

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 10:11 AM

Listed are school shooting worldwide. A propensity in the US but none-the-less similar shootings in other countries,

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

Tribesman

12-21-12, 12:23 PM

I don't know, this list of rampage killers is a bit larger than yours.

It isn't my list, it was Augusts.

I do not see it as that simple after looking over this list.
That list....."Not included are school massacres"?
School shooting was the news wasn't it.

Kills mom, people, his own dog.
Is that the one that led to changes of law in things like magazine capacity and possesion of assault rifles?
Any nuts gone on a spree with an assault rifle there since?

A propensity in the US but none-the-less similar shootings in other countries
So a measure of one single country compared to the rest of the world together, one country still tops the list.
You can even do it as one country against a continent to in theory reduce the odds and give the US a better chance, it still tops the list.

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 12:39 PM

It isn't my list, it was Augusts.

No matter. The list is comprehensive and provides a better picture.

That list....."Not included are school massacres"?
School shooting was the news wasn't it.

My post above yours has a list of school shooting.

Is that the one that led to changes of law in things like magazine capacity and possesion of assault rifles?
Any nuts gone on a spree with an assault rifle there since?

I do not know if this incident spearheaded a change to the laws. I can not answer question 2 as a result. I gathered lists to get a broad picture of shooting sprees around the world and not focus on a singular event.

So a measure of one single country compared to the rest of the world together, one country still tops the list.
You can even do it as one country against a continent to in theory reduce the odds and give the US a better chance, it still tops the list.

Yes, the one country(US) does top the list across the board. I will take a stab at it and conclude the ready availability of weapons at Walmart and home probably play a part. This does not cover mental instability,crime of passion or just purely insane. I suspect it would take a lifetime of study to find the correct answers. But, not to worry, our good government will figure it out. :doh:

Tribesman

12-21-12, 02:29 PM

No matter. The list is comprehensive and provides a better picture.

The list of Augusts bears no relation to the subject, as such it provides no picture not a better picture.

My post above yours has a list of school shooting.

And that list is addressed in the last bit of the post which followed it.

I do not know if this incident spearheaded a change to the laws. I can not answer question 2 as a result. I gathered lists to get a broad picture of shooting sprees around the world and not focus on a singular event.

Firstly it is all in the link you posted, if you are posting a link to make even a broad point do you not think it would be a good idea to read them first?
Especially since this tangent has developed as someone listed some entirely unrelated events and truied to use them as a measure.

Yes, the one country(US) does top the list across the board. I will take a stab at it and conclude the ready availability of weapons at Walmart and home probably play a part. This does not cover mental instability,crime of passion or just purely insane. I suspect it would take a lifetime of study to find the correct answers.
The thing there is as I mentioned before the variables over mental problems social issues etc. can be covered from every angle given the large number of countries to sample, no matter which way you cut it America always stands out, which leaves you with the one thing we are told is different about America as being the only possible answer.
Now addresing that answer is another matter entirely, but refusing to accept that it is the answer which needs addressing is just plain silly.

But, not to worry, our good government will figure it out.
wrong topic, that line belongs in this thread. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184647

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 02:51 PM

The list of Augusts bears no relation to the subject, as such it provides no picture not a better picture.

August list was not on the table as result of more comprehensive lists that I found. There was no attempt to really create a relationship or credit the list of August.

And that list is addressed in the last bit of the post which followed it.

Yes, later on in your post.

Firstly it is all in the link you posted, if you are posting a link to make even a broad point do you not think it would be a good idea to read them first?
Especially since this tangent has developed as someone listed some entirely unrelated events and truied to use them as a measure.

I'm not going to go line by line to prove any points. The lists were provided to see what has happened around the globe in the past. Not a sultry sum of 12 hand picked incidents. A brief look one can see there is a numerous shooting in the US. There is no reason to go into detail on each. If you so wish to dissect and analyze each incident feel free. So no, I don't see it is a good idea to read the entire link in this case.

The thing there is as I mentioned before the variables over mental problems social issues etc. can be covered from every angle given the large number of countries to sample, no matter which way you cut it America always stands out,

Didn't I just say this after making a cursory look at the list I provided? :rotfl2:

which leaves you with the one thing we are told is different about America as being the only possible answer.

And what is that one thing? We all have water on the brain and weapons at our disposal? :rotfl2:

Tribesman

12-21-12, 03:10 PM

So no, I don't see it is a good idea to read the entire link in this case.

so you don't think you should know the possible relevance of any information you may wish to introduce.
A novel idea.

And what is that one thing? We all have water on the brain and weapons at our disposal?
We are frequently told that America has a gun culture that is unique and that no one else can understand.
We are frequently shown an almost fetish like devoltion to an old line written a long time ago which despite never actually existing in reality is held up as a holy grail of the essensce of the nation even though the dumb cluts who wrote it couldn't agree what it really meant and which the population have been argueing for over 200 years over what it really says.

An illustration of another dumb cluck was kindly given today by that twat from the NRA.
An instantly accesible nationwide database to help cure the problem of nuts with guns:yeah:sensible eh.....though of course you cannot include guns on a database as guns are special

August

12-21-12, 03:38 PM

What a looser. :nope:

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 03:48 PM

so you don't think you should know the possible relevance of any information you may wish to introduce.
A novel idea.

Tribes, the list was to provide back up on your position that we are somehow different. You chose to go off on a tangent about reading and writing a dissertation when it is not necessary. Purely a waste of time and energy to do so in this case.

We are frequently told that America has a gun culture that is unique and that no one else can understand.

There is a culture. As I have stated before in this thread, normally these are called clubs. I suspect each country has a culture unique to weapons. Those that my have them that is. But yes, by and large, there looks to be a gun craze in the US. As a result it is unique.

We are frequently shown an almost fetish like devoltion to an old line written a long time ago which despite never actually existing in reality is held up as a holy grail of the essensce of the nation even though the dumb cluts who wrote it couldn't agree what it really meant and which the population have been argueing for over 200 years over what it really says.

Now you are not thinking clearly. The fetish has nothing to do with the old line written by a klutz 200 years ago. These are two separate things. One is a law. The other believing a object has special magical powers or spirits. Fetish often relating to something sexual in nature. At any rate, those klutz 200 years ago afforded rights and freedoms some in the world can only dream of. Bill of Rigths and Constitution written by klutz's afford other freedoms other than owning a weapon. I suspect Einstein got a few things wrong every now and then. It does not make him klutz. :rotfl2:

An illustration of another dumb cluck was kindly given today by that twat from the NRA.
An instantly accesible nationwide database to help cure the problem of nuts with guns:yeah:sensible eh.....though of course you cannot include guns on a database as guns are special

You lost me here. :06:

Tribesman

12-21-12, 07:18 PM

Now you are not thinking clearly. The fetish has nothing to do with the old line written by a klutz 200 years ago.
The way some people cling to the second and give it absolute devotion above the constitution and all the other amendments gives it that fetish nature.

You lost me here. :06:
The idiot announced that they would favour a national database of every individual with possible mental issues to ensure they couldn't get guns, yet still refuses to have a national database of gunsales to identify which people have guns and still refuses that all gun sales should be subject to a background check...so like the criminal database which he proposes mirroring with a mental health check he wishes to ensure that it can never work.

What a looser. :nope:
Tighten up August.
Watch out August the romans are going to massacre people after they defeat the army, make sure you are armed better than the army or the romans will get ya because massacres happen:har::har::har::har::har:

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 07:49 PM

I think it is obsession and not so much a fetish.

Tribes, a national gun registry will be just as unreliable as the registry at state level. Possibly worse. I don't think that is the answer.

Tribesman

12-21-12, 08:01 PM

I don't think that is the answer.
True, but the absence of one contributes to the problem.
And without something to match against the "do not let this person have guns" list the list is a waste of time, likewise with the "no checkups are needed if you buy the gun here" points of sale.

How many killers recently have left the afterrtale of "he shouldn't actually have been able to buy the gun"?
Even if you look at murders at shooting ranges you get the tale of "they shouldn't have even been permitted to enter a range or hire the gun"

AVGWarhawk

12-21-12, 09:34 PM

Ultimately there will not be a fool proof method in controlling guns. It would seem it is the same issue when attempting to control drinking and driving. This entire ordeal will end up being nothing but posturing. Eventually it will fad from the forefront of media followed by the people. Life goes on. Gun sales continue.

nikimcbee

12-21-12, 10:15 PM

Dowly

12-21-12, 10:47 PM

We live in a violent culture today. I think Hollywood has more impact than guns. The average kid watches 1000's of brutal murders every year on TV. Don't get me wrong, I like my action flicks, but I also grew up in the period where being the good guy was the thing to do. Hollywood once promoted a clear good vs. bad image. I see a lot of liberal actors promoting gun control, then they make the most violent movies with guns, lil hypocritical to me.

Bull****.

You seem to forget the fact that hollywood movies and games are distributed worldwide.
Yet, it doesnt cause shootings in the rest of the world in the scale that is happening in the US. :hmmm:

To me that points that there is a problem with your culture. As been said number of times, with the mental health care.

It's not the movies nor games.

I leave you with what Phil Plait said: http://tiny.cc/3u9opw

And especially this quote:

Of course this situation is complicated, and of course there is no one solution. We cannot take action just to take action, and convince ourselves we're doing something, no matter what it is. But all we have learned from doing nothing is that nothing has been done. Discussing this, just talking about it realistically, is the first necessary step.

August

12-21-12, 11:14 PM

Why is hollywood hiding these days? Some sort a sense guilt finally kick in?

It's okay, it's just a game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UadzYIwors

I had someone tell me that this wasn't a good example because the player is portraying a secret agent and if he doesn't participate in the massacre the other terrorists will shoot him and that at the end of scenario the players avatar is killed anyways by the head bad guy who has learned of the agents identity.

He said "But it's ok because you're forced to do it!"

What a nice message to send...

Tribesman

12-22-12, 03:38 AM

Ultimately there will not be a fool proof method in controlling guns. It would seem it is the same issue when attempting to control drinking and driving.
Yes but are there any suggestions that methods to combat drink driving should be abandoned or not even tried because some people will still drink and drive?

This entire ordeal will end up being nothing but posturing. Eventually it will fad from the forefront of media followed by the people.
I am not so sure this time, it has been building up for a while and this time hit really hard, plus it had the extra impetus given by that twat from the NRA shooting himself in the foot with his idiocy.

Skybird

12-22-12, 08:47 AM

Those were the days...

LINK (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/us-approach-to-guns-apparent-from-early-advertising-a-874420.html)

Armistead

12-22-12, 09:29 AM

Bull****.

You seem to forget the fact that hollywood movies and games are distributed worldwide.
Yet, it doesnt cause shootings in the rest of the world in the scale that is happening in the US. :hmmm:

To me that points that there is a problem with your culture. As been said number of times, with the mental health care.

It's not the movies nor games.

I leave you with what Phil Plait said: http://tiny.cc/3u9opw

And especially this quote:

It's also been a fact several of our mental cases doing these shootings play violent video games hours every day. Simply put, you would have as much luck stopping these killers by banning video games as you would guns, not much at all.

AVGWarhawk

12-22-12, 09:56 AM

Those were the days...

LINK (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/us-approach-to-guns-apparent-from-early-advertising-a-874420.html)

Knives and the like were also advertised to target young boys. Parents simply had to say no. My parents did with guns and motorcycles. Oh well, the good old days. Never mind.

Nippelspanner

12-22-12, 10:43 AM

Since I found some of the most silly, yet often used pro-gun defence-sentences in this thread or elswhere in similar discussions:

According to a study published in the UK's Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list) newspaper, the U.S. has the highest gun ownership rate in the world, at roughly 88 guns per 100 people. The gun homicide rate in America is concomitantly high -- around 10,000 homicides per year. In contrast, in Japan, where guns are strictly regulated, the rate of gun ownership is less than 1 percent, with 11 gun homicides reported. In the UK, where tough gun restriction measures (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/16/newsid_3110000/3110949.stm) were implemented in the 1990s, gun ownership has fallen to roughly 6 percent, with Britain reporting roughly 45 gun fatalities per year. These figures, even when adjusted for population, are staggering. What these gun-restricting countries demonstrate is that greater regulation of guns is linked to gun violence levels that are minuscule in comparison with the U.S.

In addition to ignoring the link between gun deaths and gun access, those who proffer the "guns don't kill people, people kill people," defense are committing an error in reasoning. Arguing that the human effort involved in firing a gun renders the gun itself harmless denies the causal link between subject and object. This is like saying Paul Warfield Tibbets (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307252,00.html) is bad, but the atomic bomb is innocuous. Attributing the result of harm to the perpetrator but none to the means is a dangerous form of false calculus.

Yet gun supporters who believe this falsehood are also fond of comparing guns to disparate objects -- cars, for example, to exclaim (with palm to head, as if this is exactly what is being proposed) -- cars kill people, so I guess we should just restrict cars! It is not hard to point out this failure of logic. Nobody fires a gun to get to school, to take their grandmother to a doctor's appointment, or to help a neighbor get to their job, and inadvertently ends up blowing somebody's head off. The release of a gun's trigger has no additional function other than causing harm.

Leah Griesmann: Guns do kill people (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leah-griesmann/gun-violence_b_2308027.html)

I dont agree with all she says... but I nodded very often while reading this.