Lines Blur as Texas Gives Industries a Bonanza

[Gerald]

DALLAS — The Preston Hollow neighborhood has been home to many of Texas’ rich and powerful — George and Laura Bush, Mark Cuban, T. Boone Pickens, Ross Perot. So it is hardly surprising that a recent political fund-raiser was held there on the back terrace of a 20,000-square-foot home overlooking lush gardens with life-size bronze statues of the host’s daughters.

The guest of honor was Gov. Rick Perry, but the man behind the event was not one of the enclave’s boldface names. He was a tax consultant named G. Brint Ryan.

Mr. Ryan’s specialty is helping clients like ExxonMobil and Neiman Marcus secure state and local tax breaks and other business incentives. It is a good line of work in Texas.

Under Mr. Perry, Texas gives out more of the incentives than any other state, around $19 billion a year, an examination by The New York Times has found. Texas justifies its largess by pointing out that it is home to half of all the private sector jobs created over the last decade nationwide. As the invitation to the fund-raiser boasted: “Texas leads the nation in job creation.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/us/winners-and-losers-in-texas.html?hp

That sounds good,“Texas leads the nation in job creation.”


Note: December 2, 2012

[Gerald]

^http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q764/gasturbin/JP-INCENTIVES-1-articleLarge.jpg
The Samsung fabrication plant, seen in the background, while a neighborhood boy swings on the playground of the Pioneer Crossing Elementary School. Samsung has been awarded more than $231 million in tax breaks from the state of Texas.

[yubba]

Thats what I call a business freindly environment..they could have gone to mexico like corning glass did here in New York god it's awful up here can't wait to get back to florida.

[soopaman2]

How is that gonna do, when they leave the union, and have to support all their own social programs, and defense?

How long until they turn it into New(est) Mexico? Cartels, got it good!

They seem to think they can do so well without the rest of us, I say let them try, all those minimum wage jobs, and zero corp taxes will get so much done amongst anyone who wants to make less than 7$ an hour... Like a Mexican, or some stupid immigrant.

You wonder why Obama won?


Secede? Please. I would love to see you on your own tit, and not all of ours.

I lost alot of respect for Texas, no offense to my Texas brothers, but your brethren are morons.

(on a side edit: I will still support this site, even if it goes to Texas rules) You still got me, but I will still call you out on your behavior, just as I am ripped for being a NE liberal.

(edit: Kinda fear knocking Texas, cuz the big boss hails from there)

[yubba]

It works like this, they hire people which in turn pay taxes, and then they buy stuff which in turn they are taxed, and then that spurres other companies to grow like Mc Donalds which will hire people which in turn will pay taxes so the school teacher gets paid in which he or she will buy goods and services which will be taxed,, for the life of me I can't understand why liberals can't figure this out,, look at all the taxes you get when the people are working, it's simple math even yubba can understand this kind of logic, man it ain't rocket science.... or is it,, liberals don't want us little people to do well,, make us more dependant like, sheep ?????? And don't take the liberal cop out that companies don't pay fare wages, some one will work to feed themselves and their family. I'll work for 5 or 7 bucks an hour and I better not get taxed thats how this government can help....It's goin on a month now since the election where's all the great new jobs??????? jobs report tomorrow..

[Tribesman]

Sounds like the are trying to follow Irelands lead.
The Texas tiger:doh:

It works like this, they hire people which in turn pay taxes, and then they buy stuff which in turn they are taxed, and then that spurres other companies to grow like Mc Donalds which will hire people which in turn will pay taxes so the school teacher gets paid in which he or she will buy goods and services which will be taxed,, for the life of me I can't understand why liberals can't figure this out,, look at all the taxes you get when the people are working, it's simple math even yubba can understand this kind of logic, man it ain't rocket science....
Wow, you don't know how it works and don't understand it, no surprises there.:rotfl2:

[Catfish]

Then it's only a question of time that all Texans will be millionaires :D

I think the whole money system is wrong. It has worked for 200 years, as long as single nations were able to grow on others' backs (e.g. see british empire), but with the globalisation this all comes to naught. We will manage to live on for a few years on the middle east for oil and Africa for rare elements, but as soon as they stop killing each other there and unite, it will all go for real sustainable resources.

It was always about growth and expanding, with real globalization (not what G8 does, this is securing most worldwide resources for a few) economical growth can not go on forever.

[Sailor Steve]

I think the whole money system is wrong.
What do you propose in its place?

[yubba]

Sounds like the are trying to follow Irelands lead.
The Texas tiger:doh:


Wow, you don't know how it works and don't understand it, no surprises there.:rotfl2:
So tell me how do you create wealth,????? Lets see,, me I dumpster dive I call it urban prospecting, I take stuff that's thrown away and turn it into cash, I found a lawn mower and with little time and effort fixed it and used it to mow lawns, too make money if I had more lawns to mow I'd hire someone, that's how you create jobs. I also took seeds from a papia and put them in the grown and now I got 30 trees and I will sell the fruit to make money. Side note collecting foodstamps does not spurr economic growth.

[the_tyrant]

I have to say that these tax breaks are a good move for the high tech industry in Texas.

Texas is home to some of the world's biggest fabs (semi conductor factories). In fact, I have read multiple interviews of how silicon valley and California in general is no longer "business friendly", and how they are all moving to places like Texas.

[Tribesman]

So tell me how do you create wealth,?????
Well there is two relevant ways to this theme, either get in quick and scam the breaks then jumps ship with all the cash before the bubble bursts, or wait keeping it steady until the crash comes then sweep up all the suddenly cheap assets in the fire sale.

Lets see,, me I dumpster dive I call it urban prospecting
Is there any tax breaks you get for that?
If not then your theft of other peoples property is irrelevant to the topic.

I also took seeds from a papia and put them in the grown and now I got 30 trees and I will sell the fruit to make money.
Well done, if you don't get hit with weather or disease you might make a $100 in a couple of years time.

[nikimcbee]

^http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q764/gasturbin/JP-INCENTIVES-1-articleLarge.jpg
The Samsung fabrication plant, seen in the background, while a neighborhood boy swings on the playground of the Pioneer Crossing Elementary School. Samsung has been awarded more than $231 million in tax breaks from the state of Texas.

I wonder how much revenue Samsung generates for Austin. If I recall, Samsung is growing (in TX), creating high wage careers. Plus it creates all of the secondary jobs to support Samsung in the area.

[nikimcbee]

I have to say that these tax breaks are a good move for the high tech industry in Texas.

Texas is home to some of the world's biggest fabs (semi conductor factories). In fact, I have read multiple interviews of how silicon valley and California in general is no longer "business friendly", and how they are all moving to places like Texas.


Then there is Oregon:haha:. Oregon has also given the semiconductor industry some big taxbreaks to stay here. Oregon makes bank with the high taxes on income. The state of ore-gone would go tits up if the semiconductor industry left the state.

[GoldenRivet]

How is that gonna do, when they leave the union, and have to support all their own social programs, and defense?



I see you come from New Jersey.

I've been fortunate enough to travel from one end of this nation to the other, so i've been most places.

I'll say this as nicely as possible... New Jersey is the very bottom of the barrel as near as I'm concerned. I happen to be helping with Sandy damage right now, and Irene last year and to be perfectly honest there are a lot of places up here that would vanish into being ghost towns if it werent for tapping into uncle sam's coin purse. Now there are places like that everywhere no doubt about it... but there are some areas up here in the northeast that take the cake.

why are you so concerned about what Texas is doing?

If the leadership in place in Texas wants to make it a good place to bring business and the hundreds of thousands of jobs that come with it, then by all means i think they should make it a profitable place to do business and to live and work.

I have to honestly say the mentality is completely different in a lot of the areas i've visited but the Northeast tends to bring out the worst in people.

it holds the honor of being the ONLY place i have ever been pushed out of the way while grocery shopping because someone needed an item off the shelf in front of me

It holds the honor of being the ONLY place i have ever held the door for a woman and had 3 guys breeze right in ahead of her as if i were holding it for them.

It holds the honor of being the ONLY place i have ever had people tell me to be rude, and drop my southern manners if i want to fit in.

Well... Im sorry, but the Northeast and particularly New Jersey can have it.

I'll take my sweet home Texas - even with all it's faults large and small - any damn day of the week over this turd that is the NE.

EDIT: i do have one nice thing to say about New Jersey... The Graffiti is really nice this time of year.

[mookiemookie]

One in four Texans is has no health insurance. Texas ranks last in percentage of adults with a high school diploma. We have the fourth highest teen pregnancy rate in the nation. Every year since 1980, Texas has had a higher poverty rate than the U.S. as a whole. Texas ranked sixth in the nation in income inequality in a 2005-2009 Census Bureau study. The average income in Texas consistently ranks below the national average.

Corporate welfare comes with consequences.

[GoldenRivet]

I have to wonder how many illegals are factored into that equation.

I know my my dads OB unit conducted at least 30+ deliveries a week in young teen Mexican girls who hopped the border

[Onkel Neal]

One in four Texans is has no health insurance. Texas ranks last in percentage of adults with a high school diploma. We have the fourth highest teen pregnancy rate in the nation. Every year since 1980, Texas has had a higher poverty rate than the U.S. as a whole. Texas ranked sixth in the nation in income inequality in a 2005-2009 Census Bureau study. The average income in Texas consistently ranks below the national average.

Corporate welfare comes with consequences.

I agree, there's always room for improvement.

[mookiemookie]

I agree, there's always room for improvement.

Indeed. A lot of people love to crow about the unemployment statistics for Texas, but they forget those others. I think that government should work for all citizens, not just the most wealthy. We can certainly do better in education, which I think is the key. If children are the future, then we're mortgaging our future for meaningless gains today.

[em2nought]

People don't have health insurance because they choose to have things like cable tv, cigarettes, iphones, ipads, whatever instead. :/\\!!

[mookiemookie]

People don't have health insurance because they choose to have things like cable tv, cigarettes, iphones, ipads, whatever instead. :/\\!!

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Onkel Neal]

Indeed. A lot of people love to crow about the unemployment statistics for Texas, but they forget those others. I think that government should work for all citizens, not just the most wealthy. We can certainly do better in education, which I think is the key. If children are the future, then we're mortgaging our future for meaningless gains today.

To a degree, em2nought is right. The school where I teach, 85% of the kids are on free breakfast and lunch. But each and everyone has a smartphone.

I doubt we agree about how to fix the education problem ;) I hear a lot about teachers and tests, but from what I've seen first-hand, it needs to start with the parents.

[GoldenRivet]

I don't have health insurance just because i choose not to.

I work hard, i work often and i earn good money and if i get sick i go and get treatment.

the amount of money i would have spent on health insurance vs the number of times i have needed it pretty much equals out.

I was treated for pneumonia last year... first visit to a health professional other than a routine aviator's physical in about 6 years and it cost me about $2500.

$2500 / 6 yrs = $416.67 per year

$416.67 / 12 months = $34.72 per month

thus any health insurance i would have paid for over the last six years would have to cost less than $34.72 a month to be worth it.

that doesnt account for anything like a motor-vehicle accident, but with the right coverage you have medical expenses covered anyhow.

There will come a day when i will buy health insurance (especially now that i'm a treasonous enemy of the United States if i dont have it)

but the thing about counting beans into a pool of statistics is that the circumstances of the individual bean are not taken into consideration. Just because someone doesnt have health insurance doesnt mean they are destitute.

Are people really implying that providing perks and incentives to do business in the Republic of Texas is causing people to get pregnant at 16? or causing them to drop out of high school?

these are social issues that every state has. some state will always be number one on the tippy top of that list, another will always be last. Thats the thing about lists. But i dont see the connection that trying to make business profitable and providing incentives to bring those 50,000 jobs to Whereverville, Texas is causing teens to get pregnant and drop out of high school.

Chase the pipe dream of utopia into oblivion all you want the one thing remains... there will always be those people who have, and those who don't and that will never be eliminated from any society unless you just take the unwashed poor to the incinerator at the end of every week.

want to blame something for homelessness or lay fault for unemployment? i think social issues almost always boil down to the individual. Try as you might some people just want to be crack head drunks. some people are just trashy and there's nothing you can do about it. You could give them $500,000 and they would spend $300 for a week at a motel $50,000 on a car and the rest on drugs and liquor and ass and be right back in the same spot in no time flat and while $500K would make for one hell of a great week, you havnt changed the person for the better. and the problem of unemployment is only made worse since we live in a society where it is often more profitable to be unemployed than to have a job :doh::doh:

you want to blame something for teen pregnancy? we live in a society encircled by sex. its everywhere. I sat in the waiting room at a quick lube just the other day and there was a seventeen magazine or something on the coffee table and it featured articles on the cover "10 ways to give him the best orgasm" and "what your brests need in order to stay perky" and "7 things you can do to have a sexy ass"... young women are reading this crap... and we actually encourage teens to do it from a very early age with schools handing out condoms etc... we send these kids the message that its ok to start screwing whenever they want, we have this old enough to bleed old enough to breed mentality when it comes to our kids, so of course teen pregnancy is going to be an issue in a society like that, thats not lockheed martin's fault, thats not Samsung's fault, and no its not even "Dubbya's" fault.

So they want to give a tax break to a massive corporation that builds widgets. fine! who cares? bring it on! you need 25 employees for corporate? you need 300 for upper management? you need 600 for middle management? you need 1200 supervisors? you need 15,000 widget builders? great come to Texas and lets get you cranking out widgets son hell you can break ground on a new building tomorrow morning for all i care damn you can come over to my house and you can screw my sister because guess what thats going to mean umpteen hundred construction workers and electricians and demolition laborers and countless other people doing the work to build your factory.

yes, someone is going to become a billionaire in the process and for some reason thats villainous in today's culture. and it wasnt a tax break that got them there.

I dont understand why it has become vilified to be a wealthy person.

[mookiemookie]

Are people really implying that providing perks and incentives to do business in the Republic of Texas is causing people to get pregnant at 16? or causing them to drop out of high school? If you can't see how giveaways to corporate special interests and the state of the education system are connected, do a little research to connect those dots.


these are social issues that every state has. some state will always be number one on the tippy top of that list, another will always be last. Thats the thing about lists. But i dont see the connection that trying to make business profitable and providing incentives to bring those 50,000 jobs to Whereverville, Texas is causing teens to get pregnant and drop out of high school. Ok, I'll do it for you then: If you give money to one thing, it necessarily is not available to be spent on another thing.

Chase the pipe dream of utopia into oblivion all you want the one thing remains... there will always be those people who have, and those who don't and that will never be eliminated from any society unless you just take the unwashed poor to the incinerator at the end of every week. But why is it that a state that's especially generous to corporate special interests is also especially high in poverty, wealth inequality, teen pregnancy and high school dropouts. Hmm....

want to blame something for homelessness or lay fault for unemployment? i think social issues almost always boil down to the individual. As my mechanic would say, "Well that's yer problem right there." Willfully ignoring systemic issues because it's more convenient to believe in the welfare queen narrative is being willfully blind. You are correct in saying that there will always be people who make poor choices or end up with poor circumstances and you will always have teen pregnancy, wealth inequality, poverty and dropout problems. But the question you need to ask yourself is why does Texas speficially have more of a problem with those things than nearly every other state? Are you saying we have more people making poor decisions or running into bad luck? We just happen to have ended up with a higher rate of bad apples? If you were in the apple business, wouldn't you start wondering why so many of those apples in your shipment of apples are bad?

you want to blame something for teen pregnancy? Bad education systems turn out teen mothers and dropouts. Look at the statistics for a given country's education level and compare that to its teen birth rate. I'll save you the trouble - they're negatively correlated.

I dont understand why it has become vilified to be a wealthy person.

Look at this list (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-12-27/most-admired-people-2011/52243574/1) of most admired people in 2011. Tell me how many are millionaires. Then try and say what you just said with a straight face.

[mookiemookie]

To a degree, em2nought is right. The school where I teach, 85% of the kids are on free breakfast and lunch. But each and everyone has a smartphone. You can get a smartphone for $50 nowadays. Technology is cheap. Not sure why everyone points to having a phone as evidence that they could be rich if they just tried.

I doubt we agree about how to fix the education problem ;) I hear a lot about teachers and tests, but from what I've seen first-hand, it needs to start with the parents.

I would most likely defer to your ideas as you're the one with more expertise in the system.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, yeah, you're right, Mookie, but $50 and $30 a month, isn't that a lot of money for someone who cannot feed his children? And many of these families have 3, 4, 5+ kids. Each has a phone. (Not too mention the inevitable beer and cigarettes money that the parents and often the kids spend).

As for the education problem, I don't think there is anything government can do to make people better parents. All I can see is that government should reward, not handicap, students that actually do choose to make education an important part of their life, who behave, work diligently, and who may become successful "1%er"s at some point.

While the kids who cannot sit down and stop talking, won't do their work unless you do it for them, who want everything done for them... eventually grow up to have lives where low wages are a result, and may be part of the crowd that protests and wants to overtax the group mentioned above.

[Gerald]

Parents need to take more responsibility for achieving a memorable goal, while the school draws its bit.

[mookiemookie]

Well, yeah, you're right, Mookie, but $50 and $30 a month, isn't that a lot of money for someone who cannot feed his children? And many of these families have 3, 4, 5+ kids. Each has a phone. (Not too mention the inevitable beer and cigarettes money that the parents and often the kids spend).

As for the education problem, I don't think there is anything government can do to make people better parents. All I can see is that government should reward, not handicap, students that actually do choose to make education an important part of their life, who behave, work diligently, and who may become successful "1%er"s at some point.

While the kids who cannot sit down and stop talking, won't do their work unless you do it for them, who want everything done for them... eventually grow up to have lives where low wages are a result, and may be part of the crowd that protests and wants to overtax the group mentioned above.

I don't disagree. Many parents these days are quick to blame the schools for issues that they should be addressing as parents. But I think there's a problem when you have people crowing about Texas' job situation and how cushy the business climate is when schools are overcrowded and facing crumbling facilities due to funding cuts. I really do thing we're mortgaging our future when we do this. If Texas wants to continue to be a national leader in technology and industry, we need a school system that turns out students that are ready to make that happen. Higher educated people contribute more in taxes, they use fewer government services and contribute more to the quality of life in an area.

And I know the argument is going to be that teachers and administrators are overpaid, but I just don't see how underfunding education by $5.5 billion can all be pinned on administrators making too much money. Yes, you can find examples of where that's the case, but to say that it's the entire problem is due to that is ignoring all of the other issues that contribute to the problem.

[Takeda Shingen]

And I know the argument is going to be that teachers and administrators are overpaid

In fairness, that 'overpaid' argument usually stems from people who have never stepped foot in a classroom in the capacity of educator. Once they see what the job is really like, they usually change their tune.

[mookiemookie]

In fairness, that 'overpaid' argument usually stems from people who have never stepped foot in a classroom in the capacity of educator. Once they see what the job is really like, they usually change their tune.

So I've been told by my teacher friends.

[Takeda Shingen]

Of course, teacher pay differs from district to district, usually based on the relative affulence of the community. I worked in one such high-paying district with median salary in the $40k range, which is not terrible when compared with other districts in Pennsylvania. I spent two years at the elementary level, which provided me with some surreal experiences, given that you typically have more frequent contact with the parents at that level. The drop-off line, where parents who drove their children to school would let them out, was a parade of Lexuses (Lexi?), BMWs, Lincolns, ect. The faculty lot, by contrast, was a collection of Hondas, Toyotas, Chevrolet, el al. And despite all of the community affluence, there were plenty of gripes about teacher salary. I'll tell you; one has not experienced a true Twilight Zone moment until you've seen a woman in a fur coat and pearls telling her son's teachers that they were overpaid for essentially raising her child.

[Madox58]

who may become successful "1%er"s at some point.
:o

http://mikeallegra.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/biker.jpg

:haha:

[Hottentot]

The more I read your posts, Mookie, the more I'm thinking you should move to Finland. You'd feel right at home. Well, except for the weather, but that's an acquired taste. And the language that you won't learn in your lifetime, but after a few rounds that's no obstacle for communication.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't disagree. Many parents these days are quick to blame the schools for issues that they should be addressing as parents. But I think there's a problem when you have people crowing about Texas' job situation and how cushy the business climate is when schools are overcrowded and facing crumbling facilities due to funding cuts. I really do thing we're mortgaging our future when we do this. If Texas wants to continue to be a national leader in technology and industry, we need a school system that turns out students that are ready to make that happen. Higher educated people contribute more in taxes, they use fewer government services and contribute more to the quality of life in an area.

And I know the argument is going to be that teachers and administrators are overpaid, but I just don't see how underfunding education by $5.5 billion can all be pinned on administrators making too much money. Yes, you can find examples of where that's the case, but to say that it's the entire problem is due to that is ignoring all of the other issues that contribute to the problem.


Well said, man. I'm all for Texas being a business friendly state, being business friendly is a common sense reality and part of Texas tradition. But yes, like you said, education should not be underfunded. I do not see any crumbling facilities in the schools I am in, or my kids, and there are so many new schools in Pearland, Manvel, Pasadena, etc that I am guessing a lot of the education funding is going into construction. Where are the shortfalls? I'm certainly not claiming there are none, probably they exist in teacher/student ratios. I really don't know, so I won't address that.

I admit my previous post was an oversimplification, not all kids who under perform in school end up locked into low wage careers. But it does concern me greatly how kids and their parents approach education (yeah, I know: no kids wants to go to school, it's been that way for 100 years--it's the parents and teachers' role to get them there and teach 'em...it's just a lot more difficult to get that done now). Classroom management is huge, and from what I've seen, teachers and schools are very limited in dealing with disruptive students. Maybe I will learn more and become better at this, I am trying.

Also, I do not disagree with your statistics, Mookie, but they really don't tell the whole story. First, teen age pregnancies--what role does the govt have in this? A woman has the right to do as she will with her body ;) And we cannot legislate morality or common sense.

So, Texas ranks last in the nation for adults with a high school degree? Wow, that's sad (definitely not being sarcastic here, that really is bad). But on the other hand:

Texas Outranks Most States on Graduation Rates (http://www.truthaboutschools.org/)
According to a new report by the U.S. Department of Education, Texas tied for the third highest high school graduation rate in the country for all students and ranks number one in graduation rates for Asian and white students. Texas tied with Montana for number one in African American graduation rates. Texas ranked number two on Hispanic graduation rates, behind Maine.

Not too shabby! Maybe Texas is making progress. But, ranking one state against the other states, what does that say? Maybe all the states are kicking butt and getting kids educated, but some are going to be doing it better than others. and even if one state improves its ranking, it pushes other states down in their ranking. Net-net, what's the difference? Heck, I just want to see all the states improve.

Edit: also, what does it really say? "Texas tied for the third highest high school graduation rate in the country for all students".. okay, so they are graduating? Are they educated? Or just pushed out the door? I hope the former.



In fairness, that 'overpaid' argument usually stems from people who have never stepped foot in a classroom in the capacity of educator. Once they see what the job is really like, they usually change their tune.

That's for sure! :haha: A friend and I were talking a few days ago, we both agree that teaching would be a wonderful, enriching job, if not for the classroom management problems. You like helping others, you like spreading the value of knowledge and education, you want to inspire and support young people... and you spend about half your time addressing baggy pants, listening to music, phones, insolence, missing assignments, completed assignments that show no effort at all. It's heartbreaking.

:o

http://mikeallegra.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/biker.jpg

:haha: :rotfl2:

[AVGWarhawk]

To a degree, em2nought is right. The school where I teach, 85% of the kids are on free breakfast and lunch. But each and everyone has a smartphone.

I doubt we agree about how to fix the education problem ;) I hear a lot about teachers and tests, but from what I've seen first-hand, it needs to start with the parents.

Em2 is right to much of the entire degree. Priorities for individuals differ from person to person. Most chose anything but health insurance. Yes, these kids, along with mom and dad, have smart phones, cable, every console gaming system they can get their hands on. I have a few family members that fit this very descriptions. And yes, schooling starts at home.

[AVGWarhawk]

Mookie:
As my mechanic would say, "Well that's yer problem right there." Willfully ignoring systemic issues because it's more convenient to believe in the welfare queen narrative is being willfully blind. You are correct in saying that there will always be people who make poor choices or end up with poor circumstances and you will always have teen pregnancy, wealth inequality, poverty and dropout problems. But the question you need to ask yourself is why does Texas speficially have more of a problem with those things than nearly every other state? Are you saying we have more people making poor decisions or running into bad luck? We just happen to have ended up with a higher rate of bad apples? If you were in the apple business, wouldn't you start wondering why so many of those apples in your shipment of apples are bad?

What happened to luck? Are their more people making bad decision in TX than other states? I don't know. What is the population of TX? I would say TX has RI beat. Statistically then there are more people to make bad decisions? :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Mookie:
And I know the argument is going to be that teachers and administrators are overpaid, but I just don't see how underfunding education by $5.5 billion can all be pinned on administrators making too much money. Yes, you can find examples of where that's the case, but to say that it's the entire problem is due to that is ignoring all of the other issues that contribute to the problem.

I can not say I have heard the argument that teachers are overpaid. By and large they are very underpaid IMO. Under funding normally occurs here in MD. However, they attempt to throw the answer at the votes by stating these new casinos just voted in will generate money for schools. It is bunk. They gov said this with the first casinos voted into existence. The schools have not seen a dime. School funding is just a easy cash grab no matter the state.

[nikimcbee]

School funding is just a easy cash grab no matter the state.

Post of the year.:shucks:

[mookiemookie]

Also, I do not disagree with your statistics, Mookie, but they really don't tell the whole story. First, teen age pregnancies--what role does the govt have in this? A woman has the right to do as she will with her body ;) And we cannot legislate morality or common sense. It's a symptom of the problem. Poorer and lower educated people have more babies and have them younger than higher educated and richer people.


So, Texas ranks last in the nation for adults with a high school degree? Wow, that's sad (definitely not being sarcastic here, that really is bad). But on the other hand:

I was going off of this article, which I will grant you was from 2010, so things may have changed. http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/why-does-texas-rank-last-in-high-school-diplomas/

And it also mentions that a lot of people without those degrees are immigrants to the state (from other U.S. states and Mexico) so it may not be as much of an indicator of the quality of the Texas education system. But I was just reading an article the other day that says the OECD just completed a study that found that American children are now more likely to achieve the same or a lower level of schooling than their parents. Only one in five will achieve a higher educational level than their parents. The U.S. is the only major developed economy in the world where this is the case. So when you take those two facts together, it's a worrying trend for Texas.

Here it is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20154358

[Takeda Shingen]

And it also mentions that a lot of people without those degrees are immigrants to the state (from other U.S. states and Mexico) so it may not be as much of an indicator of the quality of the Texas education system. But I was just reading an article the other day that says the OECD just completed a study that found that American children are now more likely to achieve the same or a lower level of schooling than their parents. Only one in five will achieve a higher educational level than their parents. The U.S. is the only major developed economy in the world where this is the case. So when you take those two facts together, it's a worrying trend for Texas.

It is because we, as a nation, do not value education as they do in Europe (particularly Scandinavia) and the Asian nations of Pacific Rim. Our politicians and community 'interest groups' have politicized schools, labeling them as indocrtrination centers and creating enough distrust that problems are bound to occur. And when they do, they sit back and tell you "see, I told you so!". Parents further encourage their children in the belief that they are not answerable for their effort and behavior, and when the children are problematic in the classroom, the teacher is blamed for not being an effective educator and classroom manager. All of this is reinforced by the media which works very hard to promote the idea of the shiftless, lazy teacher sitting back making $80,000 per year and being answerable to no one. And when the result of all this subterfuge and meddling is a system that fails the student, they take it as evidence that they were right after all, despite the fact that the failure was the deliberate product of their own engineering.

[mookiemookie]

It is because we, as a nation, do not value education as they do in Europe (particularly Scandinavia) and the Asian nations of Pacific Rim. Our politicians and community 'interest groups' have politicized schools, labeling them as indocrtrination centers and creating enough distrust that problems are bound to occur. And when they do, they sit back and tell you "see, I told you so!". Parents further encourage their children in the belief that they are not answerable for their effort and behavior, and when the children are problematic in the classroom, the teacher is blamed for not being an effective educator and classroom manager. All of this is reinforced by the media which works very hard to promote the idea of the shiftless, lazy teacher sitting back making $80,000 per year and being answerable to no one. And when the result of all this subterfuge and meddling is a system that fails the student, they take it as evidence that they were right after all, despite the fact that the failure was the deliberate product of their own engineering.

There also seems to be, in some segments of society, a distrust and dismissal of science and education in favor of "homespun common sense." Intellectuals are ridiculed and people like Sarah Palin are put on a pedestal. "Elitist" is used as a smear.

Well, I want the intellectually elite in charge of things. I want the smart people running the show. :know:

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, in fairness, the left does it too with the 'so-and-so has two daddies/mommies' and the like. Those are things that are not done in Asian and European nations, as they do not try to champion social causes in the classroom. In that respect, the Left is also hostile to education, but just not nearly to the degree that the Right is.

[Dowly]

The more I read your posts, Mookie, the more I'm thinking you should move to Finland. You'd feel right at home. Well, except for the weather, but that's an acquired taste. And the language that you won't learn in your lifetime, but after a few rounds that's no obstacle for communication.

Hah, I tend to agree. :)

[Madox58]

:rotfl2:

Yep.
:D

Where I tread? "1%er" has a different meaning.
I'm not sure how those "1%ers" would view rich people being assigned that title?
:hmmm:

Probably do some arse kicking at the very lest!
(Unless Kegs 'o Beer were rolled out)
:haha:

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, I want the intellectually elite in charge of things. I want the smart people running the show. :know:

I as well. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, in fairness, the left does it too with the 'so-and-so has two daddies/mommies' and the like. Those are things that are not done in Asian and European nations, as they do not try to champion social causes in the classroom. In that respect, the Left is also hostile to education, but just not nearly to the degree that the Right is.

Both are only hostile when money/funding is taken into consideration. Other than that, if the ATM(school funds) is open for the taking the gov's are sliding their cards for a withdrawal.

[Madox58]

Well, I want the intellectually elite in charge of things. I want the smart people running the show. :know:
1st person that steps up to me and uses the line that they are the "intellectually elite"?
Gets a bullet in the head!
:stare:

That's the group running crap into the ground right now incase you missed things.

[AVGWarhawk]

1st person that steps up to me and uses the line that they are the "intellectually elite"?
Gets a bullet in the head!
:stare:

That's the group running crap into the ground right now incase you missed things.


George Bush and intellectually elite never go in the same sentence. We had 8 years of this whiz kid running the show. :03: So, no, I did not miss much.

Do you have a better alternative? Snooki? The financially elite have been running the show.

[Madox58]

Do you have a better alternative?
Nope. I'm a very pessimistic type person now a days.
I expect things to get much worse and billions to pay the price before things get better.
I'm thinking that may be the "better alternative".
A massive 'wipeing of the slate'.

[AVGWarhawk]

Nope. I'm a very pessimistic type person now a days.
I expect things to get much worse and billions to pay the price before things get better.
I'm thinking that may be the "better alternative".
A massive 'wipeing of the slate'.


I'm pessimistic as well. Have been for quite sometime. I do not see things getting much worse. I see slow recovery, but a recovery non-the-less. BO and co will come out smelling like roses.

[GoldenRivet]

If you can't see how giveaways to corporate special interests and the state of the education system are connected, do a little research to connect those dots.

Ok, I'll do it for you then: If you give money to one thing, it necessarily is not available to be spent on another thing.

mookie i understand this... all i'm saying is the business are not here paying zero state taxes, think of all the other revenues having business here generates. I dont see the problem in providing them incentives to come to Texas. Because let me tell you whats going to happen... you dont provide those incentives or enough of them those big companies that give the rest of us jobs are going to go employ the people in some other state while we sit with our thumbs in our butts.

Bad education systems turn out teen mothers and dropouts. Look at the statistics for a given country's education level and compare that to its teen birth rate. I'll save you the trouble - they're negatively correlated.

bad education systems turn out teen mothers and drop outs? wrong... bad education systems turn out poorly educated people. I had a number of great teachers in my life just as i had a number of horrible ones. i never dropped out or got pregnant.

it falls squarely on the shoulders of mommy and daddy to tell the kids the dangers of screwing one another and having little redneck children. My mom and dad made me aware of those dangers, they gave me the talk and it wasnt up to any of my teachers to raise me so my parents wouldnt have to. I'd say look into the socioeconomic situation of the families with teen pregnancies. again i say - its not the fault of the corporations and the local governments that these kids hit 15 and strap a mattress to their backs.

I confess... at 16 i was screwing as if it were an effort to save all mankind. (a habit i really havnt broken yet) but for the love of God i knew the dangers, and i did so responsibly with often more than one sort of birth control involved. Condoms are dirt cheap... some places give them away. people make their own self destructive choices in life.


Look at this list (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-12-27/most-admired-people-2011/52243574/1) of most admired people in 2011. Tell me how many are millionaires. Then try and say what you just said with a straight face.

I dont follow your logic here: USA today went to apparently Pennsylvania and polled 0.0005% of the US population and came up with that end all be all list of admired people?

I dont recall ever being asked who i admire, did they ask you?

what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

yes i can say to you with a straight face - being "well of" or being "wealthy" or being "successful" etc doesnt make you a villain.

unfortunately doing anything but sitting on your ass on welfare is vilified these days.

Millionaires are automatically bad people by default in the eyes of a lot of folks out there

[Tribesman]

mookie i understand this... all i'm saying is the business are not here paying zero state taxes, think of all the other revenues having business here generates. I dont see the problem in providing them incentives to come to Texas. Because let me tell you whats going to happen... you dont provide those incentives or enough of them those big companies that give the rest of us jobs are going to go employ the people in some other state while we sit with our thumbs in our butts.

The problem with the incentives is the spiral they produce which makes it unaffordable within a very short time which leads to those companies relocating again.
Its a well worn pattern.

[GoldenRivet]

The problem with the incentives is the spiral they produce which makes it unaffordable within a very short time which leads to those companies relocating again.
Its a well worn pattern.

what is the solution you have in mind?

charge them higher taxes, let them move to another state?

let that state get wise in another 10-20 years and repeat the pricess?

then what? all the jobs are in China?

Immigrate to China?

[Tribesman]

what is the solution you have in mind?

Solution????? If any of the countries which have already tried it had the solution it wouldn't be a dodgy prospect would it.
If you can think of a way to give companies big tax breaks by loading the tax onto the workers and not creating huge wage inflation, a property bubble together with the needed massive influx of low spending high maintainance very low paid workers to do the jobs other people cannot afford to do then I am sure there are dozens of countries that will beat a path to your door to have you run their exchequer

[Onkel Neal]

I was going off of this article, which I will grant you was from 2010, so things may have changed. http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/why-does-texas-rank-last-in-high-school-diplomas/



Yes, and I am not disputing your article. "Adults without a HS diploma" could certainly be valid, we may have a lot more 30-60 year old dropouts that other states, wouldn't totally shock me. And as the article says, the huge influx of illegal aliens has a lot to do with it.


And it also mentions that a lot of people without those degrees are immigrants to the state (from other U.S. states and Mexico) so it may not be as much of an indicator of the quality of the Texas education system. But I was just reading an article the other day that says the OECD just completed a study that found that American children are now more likely to achieve the same or a lower level of schooling than their parents. Only one in five will achieve a higher educational level than their parents. The U.S. is the only major developed economy in the world where this is the case. So when you take those two facts together, it's a worrying trend for Texas.



A worrying trend for the whole country. :yep:




It is because we, as a nation, do not value education as they do in Europe (particularly Scandinavia) and the Asian nations of Pacific Rim. Our politicians and community 'interest groups' have politicized schools, labeling them as indocrtrination centers and creating enough distrust that problems are bound to occur. And when they do, they sit back and tell you "see, I told you so!". Parents further encourage their children in the belief that they are not answerable for their effort and behavior, and when the children are problematic in the classroom, the teacher is blamed for not being an effective educator and classroom manager. All of this is reinforced by the media which works very hard to promote the idea of the shiftless, lazy teacher sitting back making $80,000 per year and being answerable to no one. And when the result of all this subterfuge and meddling is a system that fails the student, they take it as evidence that they were right after all, despite the fact that the failure was the deliberate product of their own engineering.

QFT!
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.php?size=full&src=http%3A%2F%2Fphoebestjohn.files.wordpress.com% 2F2011%2F06%2Fbro-bro-fist-funny-haha-internet-lol-favim-com-64920_large.jpg

[Penguin]

The more I read your posts, Mookie, the more I'm thinking you should move to Finland. You'd feel right at home. Well, except for the weather, but that's an acquired taste. And the language that you won't learn in your lifetime, but after a few rounds that's no obstacle for communication.

:hmmm: let's see what Finland and Texas have in common:

- both fought for independence against their neighbor country

- high rate of gun ownership

- incomprehensable language

- their inhabitants are considered as weird by their neighbors

- an unexplainable love for polka music


:O:

well, I'd say Mookie would feel at home indeed...

[mookiemookie]

From what I gather, Finns love to drink and curse, and there's Scandinavian women there. I think I'd fit right in as well.